Six Chiefs Would Be Hit Hard With No Salary Cap
by Joel Thorman on Dec 31, 2009 8:00 AM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintI'm sure many of you are now aware of the rules regarding free agency if the league and the players association can't come to terms on a new collective bargaining agreement. If you're not familiar, check out WesternChief's great post on it.
One thing that would change if a CBA isn't done is that players would need six years of service, not four, to become unrestricted free agents. This would be a huge development from both sides. For the owners, it would be cheaper for them to retain their drafted players. For the players, it's two more years until many of them can hit free agency.
If you're a player in the NFL, free agency is the goal. You want to get there. You want teams competing over you driving up the price. That's how you strike it rich.
For the Chiefs, this rule would hit home for six players:
QB Brodie Croyle, LB Corey Mays, LB Derrick Johnson, C Rudy Niswanger, RT Ryan O'Callaghan and FS Jarrad Page.
Instead of those players finishing out their contracts and hitting the open market, the Chiefs would have the option of placing a tender on them as a free agent.
| Tender amount | Compensation required |
|---|---|
| $2.562 million | First- and third-round |
| $2.017 million | First-round |
| $1.417 million | Second-round |
| $927,000 | Determined by RFA's original draft status |
These are the numbers for 2008.
If the Chiefs placed a second round tender on let's say Derrick Johnson, then he could sign the offer sheet and receive about $1.5 million on a one year deal.
However, other teams would have the option of offering him a contract and, if the Chiefs wanted to match it, they could. If they didn't want to match it, then they would receive a second round pick in return.
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Didn't we tender Page and Niswanger last season?
Also can we tender as many players as we want or is there a limit?
All these questions:)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Page was tendered. I don't remember on Rudy
The number of tenders is only limited by the number of tender eligible players you have. So in effect..no limit.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 8:24 AM CST up reply actions
He also happens to be the only player on this list
I don’t think will be tendered this year.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah
Brodie will leave at any chance he gets, for sure…
by Joel Thorman on Dec 31, 2009 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
I figure 3rd round tender for Brodie and we let him walk if he gets an offer
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
Why would you say that?
Unless he has a chance to start somewhere, I see no reason why he would be unhappy.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
He's still young and wants a chance to start...
He won’t get that in KC.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 31, 2009 10:19 AM CST up reply actions
Mike Cox will miss Kelly Croyle
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
MY Cox will too :)
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
where in the league will Croyle get a chance to start?
Seahawks? Rams? Raiders? 49ers?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
Maybe Buffalo
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
He would do well on any of those teams...other than St Louis
If San Fran traded for Croyle or acquired him somehow, they would be downright DANGEROUS! He is a huge upgrade from their current QBs and that defense is on the rise. They have some real playmakers on that offense too. Crabtree, Gore, Croyle would put that team into contention IMO.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
Croyle
What has Croyle ever shown that makes you think he is a starting QB? He has had his chances and looked down right awful…the first game this year he didn’t look awful but I would argue that he looked good.
by groundedchevy on Dec 31, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
so
maybe trades will increase?
Like Mankins for DJ would make sense if both teams value at 2nd round tender.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Can't trade em until they agree to the tender
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 8:52 AM CST up reply actions
If the table in the OP is accurate...
…then KC would actually get more compensation for tendering DJ $927,000 than for tendering him $1.417 million. Funny how that works. At any rate, I’m an enormous DJ fan, and would love to see him stay in KC, but only if Haley would stop being so pigheaded about him and realize that DJ’s the best shot KC has at having a star linebacker right now.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 8:59 AM CST reply actions
Almost as pigheaded
as thinking a guy who consistently takes plays off and is always out of position can be a star.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:01 AM CST up reply actions
Has he done that any more consistently than the other LBs?
I definitely don’t think so. And I blame coaching for most of the lack of development by KC defensive players since Gunther left the first time.
Honestly, though, the current defensive staff isn’t any better than those past ones were, which is why I don’t expect KC to have a good defense for quite some time.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
The fact that Mays and Williams suck
doen’t mean that DJ can be a star. The guy is in his 5th season. He’s never come close to living up to his potential. It’s time to cut bait.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree fully
He’s played very well at times, and he’s had incredibly inconsistent coaching, just like the rest of the players.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
5 years of "At times"
does not a star make. Blame coaching all you want. At some point, you’re responsible for your own performance.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
Uh huh
So you think he’s been so bad that he’s worth sending packing, despite the presence of anyone better in KC?
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
I don't hate the guy.
If the price is right we should keep him. If he still wants to be paid like a former 1st round pick…time to let him go. He is our best ILB in coverage which makes him a nice situational play. What he is not…is a star. People can cling to the notion that he’ll reach his potential someday and maybe he will. But to blame all of his failures on coaching only serves to overlook his deficiencies.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:35 AM CST up reply actions
You can say that about every front-seven player in KC except JA, then
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
Nope
Dorsey and Hali are improving. No idea on Jackson yet. The rest can go.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
Dorsey and Hali are improving
But if they had been given the same amount of opportunity this year that DJ has been given, they wouldn’t have. Why? Because DJ hasn’t had the opportunities either of those guys has had.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
DJ had 4 years as a starter and never produced
anything more than the occasional flash play. And there weren’t many of those.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:45 AM CST up reply actions
False--you're being overly critical, because he's shown much more than flashes
And anyway, your examples of Hali and Dorsey would be relevant if Johnson had been given the chance and had failed.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:48 AM CST up reply actions
In 4 years as an ILB
starting every game he never broke 100 tackles, never had more than 4 sacks and did not create many turnovers. He was very consistent over that period. 75-95 tackles. 2-4 sacks. 1-3 turnovers caused.
He is what he is. A below average ILB. He’s not an abomination. He shouldn’t be run out of town on a rail. He should be in the NFL whether here or somewhere else. He’s above average in coverage and has a role. Nickle LB. Not a star. Not even close. Time to let the mancrush go…
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:51 AM CST up reply actions
he was an OLB
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
He played both
which makes his lack of sack production even worse.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Not for a guy who should play WLB/ROLB
Sacks are a big deal for a sam/ROLB, but Donnie Edwards was an excellent LB without getting much in the way of sacks.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
Not big or strong enough to play OLB in a 3-4
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
Obviously not right now
But wasn’t your statement based on the four years he played in a 4-3?
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
He played some in the 4-3
and did not excel.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
You keep changing the argument
You argued that his sack production was minimal, to which I replied that he was a will. For some reason you then changed to talking about a 3-4, where he’s an inside linebacker which was irrelevant to the discussion of his sack production as an outside linebacker.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
I'm not changing the arguement
you just keep changing your excuses for him. No matter how you break down his numbers or criticize the various roles they tried to put him in different systems. He always remained what he was. An inconsistent guy who produced mediocre stats.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
It's like arguing with a brick wall
So I’ll agree to disagree.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Fair enough.
And it takes one to know one.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Perhaps
I can provide a different perspective.
DJ has never played to his 1st round pick potential. The guy will go out and make a great play and turn around and make a bonehead play that cost us 30 yards. He’s a yo-yo player as Haley would put it. Why do you think Demarrio and Mays stay in on 1st and 2nd down and Belcher and Johnson come in on passing situations?
We need a solid ILB who can play both the run and the pass. DJ is nothing more than a situational LB. He over pursues on the run alot, and even in pass coverage (his strong suit) he tends to blow his coverage because he likes to roam too much.
Some defenses account for a roamer..but when youre in a zone defense, if you dont play your zone, your shooting a huge hole in the defense..and thats what DJ does.
DJ has had games where he’s looked great, and hes had games where hes looked terrible. He has never put together a complete season. He’s never broken 100 tackles. I’m not worried about his sack production because of playing in the 4-3 and not being used as a blitzer often.
Again..he’s not a consistant player. He’s not a guy whos going to miss many tackles when he’s in a position to make a play..but as Gunther and every other coach has said about him…he needs to stop thinking and start playing. He thinks too much and because of that, he pulls himself out of position too often.
If we can keep DJ at a good price, by all means do so..but if hes expecting money for being a former 1st round pick..let him go.
Obviously you aren't watching the same Chiefs as I am
Because Derrick Johnson did not play four years as an inside linebacker.
Welcome to the Chiefs fanbase, bud.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Williams doesn't suck
he’s been the most consistent LB on the team. He leads the defense in tackles and has been the best against the run of ALL the LBs.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Yes.
He has been the best of a bad lot.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
He has put up some good numbers...but watching him play I'm less than impresesed...
Tackles are somewhat a misleading stat….he plays a position where he’s prime to get a ton of tackles….every play there is a tackle, someone has to make it.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
Correct
somewhere HMills head just exploded.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
He seems to take care of his assignments
Our NT is weak. With an upgrade, all the LBs would look MUCH better.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
You leave Ron out of this...
Just kidding, I know he’s not a great NT….I just like the guy for some reason.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:25 AM CST up reply actions
I like him too.
He’s just not good enough to be the centerpiece of our defense. I hope we keep him as a backup though. He DOES have value, he’s just not good enough to do what we need him to do.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
KCSatchmo
Think about the D’s that were run with him at OLB.Cover 2?would DT do well in cover 2?Doubt it.Then they move him inside,ok,but his atheleticism is too good to be inside.The guy hasn’t been used in the right “D” since he’s been here.If the chiefs want to get rid of him,watch Shwartz & Gunn fly to pick him up.
John Soellner
Yes that's it
He’s just too darn athletic to play inside.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 3:01 PM CST up reply actions
Boy, Burnt orange...
I couldn’t agree with that statement any more. Coaching is and has been the problem on defense for years. It’s also why our top draft picks aren’t playing up to par. Good teams with good coaches RARELY have draft busts and, we are neither of those things.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
Or maybe good teams
just drafted better players.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions
If that were the case, all of our former players would be failures on their current teams...
But, that’s not the case. They ALL seem to excel once they get into a better situation. I find it very hard to believe that teams with very good draft records just get luckier when drafting from the same pool as everyone else. I think part of the reason they are successful is because they are good teams and they don’t have to count on their rookies to contribute immediately. Those players get more time to develope before they are expected to perform.
I hardly think they simply draft better players, especially when they consistently have lower draft picks. I really find that hard to believe.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
Name 2
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
Keyaron Fox and Kawika Mitchell
That’s without even thinking about it.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
Good choices
Kawika was an above average starting LB here and continues to be one. Matt Cassel can’t play like did.
Fox was a backup and spot starter for us and remains so for Pitt. Matt Cassel can’t play like did.
What else ya got?
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
Same thing
I LOVE Fujita. Was a good starter for us. Is a good starter for NO. shouldn’t have let him go.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
What exactly was the deal with Donnie Edwards leaving
seemed there was some rumours at the time
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
Money.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
He and Vermiel didn't see eye to eye.
Donnie wanted to do things his way and that didn’t gel with DV.
Edwards IS another good example.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
Not a good example
He excelled in SD..just like he did here.
Remember…we’re looking for guys that didn’t produce here but did elsewhere.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:05 AM CST up reply actions
See my point yet?
There just aren’t any guys who had a dramatic jump in production after leaving here. Doen’t mean our coaching was good. It wasn’t. It just means that the drafting wasn’t good either. We get attached to these guys because they’re ours. We make them out to be what they are not. We’re doing the same with DJ.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Botched coaching in formative years is rarely reversible
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Then you should conceed my point on DJ
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
If it means anything...
I agree about DJ. The fact that he makes such amazing plays and then disappears for the rest of a game just tells me that he’s lazy and doesn’t put forth 100% on every down.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:13 AM CST up reply actions
Or maybe be he just doesn't have
a head for teh game. Whatever it is…it’s below average. Shame…the guy can run.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
Kawika Mitchell sucked as a Chief
I was happy to see him go after his final game as a Chief…when Peyton picked on him all day in that playoff loss to the Colts.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, well that proves my point about Kawika...
He has done very well since leaving KC. He has a SB ring from his time with NY and has had a nice couple of years at Buffalo.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:01 AM CST up reply actions
2 100 tackle seasons as a Chief
none as a Giant or Bill.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
D. Williams might have 100 tackles....
does that make him a good LB?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
Nope
but never acheiving it certainly doesn’t make DJ a star.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
And I'm with you Stach...
Super DJ has been a dissapointment…does the guy have “potential?”…sure he does, but at some point the “potential” should translate into good play on the field, and after 5 years we haven’t seen it consistantly.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
I wish it weren't true
I own a DJ jersey. Love your sig line btw.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
Does AP have a new Porn star?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:16 AM CST up reply actions
Mike Cox
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
Like him or not
his performance did not improve upon leaving teh Chiefs. In fact, his stats declined.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
Maslowski
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 10:02 AM CST up reply actions
lol
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
I LOVED Maz...
He would have Been a GREAT player if it weren’t for his injury. He was on his way to becoming my favorite Chiefs defender.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Williams isn't that bad.
He’s the least of our problems right now.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Nope
Flowers, Hali and Dorsey are the least of our problems right now. Everyone else is suspect at best.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 10:11 AM CST up reply actions
The Chiefs, like the Lions, became an organizational failure in player development
And had to subsist on traded-for players for a long, long time.
Take QB as an example. When was the last time KC developed a rookie into a real starter?
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:53 AM CST up reply actions
We have never developed a QB and we have never drafted a QB who succeeded ewlsewhere.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
That's true
But I’m not sure how that disproves my point. Thinking back, did KC even TRY to draft and develop a QB anywhere between Pat Barnes and Brodie Croyle? I think James Kilian was the only one, and he was sort of a throwaway pick.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
They might have all been throwaway picks
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Of course
Anyway, I double-checked, and it does indeed appear that after the pick of Barnes in 1997, the next two QB picks for KC were Kilian in 2005 and Croyle in 2006. That makes one third, one fourth, and one seventh on QBs since 1997. I didn’t look before that, but it might’ve been even longer.
Has any other organization ever shown to be so poor and unconfident in its ability to draft and develop a QB? I am amazed that KC’s scouting department survived as long as it did. Heck, I’m amazed Carl Peterson survived as long as he did, but I guess that’s what happens when an owner jumps the shark.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
It doesn't disprove your point
You guys are just trying to put all the blame on coaching. We’ve had an epic failure in all areas. The players drafted were bad…the coaching was bad. No reason to cling to teh idea that guys like DJ can just be coached up. He is what he is.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
something to consider is ...
the draft itself is a crap shoot … sometimes the best (looking) players don’t pan out, whereas a player taken further down (JA) turns out to be a superstar
nobody knows til they get to The Show and then everyone finds out what happens, for better or worse
this year Curry or Suh could be stars or busts, nobody knows … nobody WILL know til it happens … and even then, a player like that could go to one team, get lousy coaching OR have lousy teammates OR just a lousy scheme for his talents, suck like hell, then be a star somewhere else
you just never know …
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
Totally agree
All I know is some teams get it right way more often then we have..NE..Pitt…Indy. We’ve been a disaster in all areas for a long time.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:21 AM CST up reply actions
It goes back to what we were saying earlier though.
Those teams have OUTSTANDING assistants and do a great job of preparing their players. Which is exactly why they rarely have guys who become “busts”. Indy is the best example of that. This last year they didn’t acquire 1 player via free agency, not one! That alone is amazing, especially when you consider the fact that they are very likely the #1 seed to win the big dance and easily could have gone undefeated this year.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
There you go again
putting it all on coaching. It takes everyone doing their job well.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:30 AM CST up reply actions
Side note
Are you and I the only ones on this site who think we should draft OL in the 1st?
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Nope.
I think so too although, it would be really hard to pass on Berry.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
I've wanted a OT since 07
Freakin Dolphins….taking our guy….asshats.
The only thing that worries me is the talk that there are no true “franchise” LT’s in this draft. Okung would appear to be the cream of the class…and Ive read countless times he’s no Jake Long (or whoever you think is a great LT). But I’ll admit I have no idea who is going to pan out and who isn’t. If Pioli thinks Okung is going to be a great OT, then by all means take him.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't worry too much about what
draft experts are saying at this point. The opinion always gets adjusted leading up to the draft.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
I was so pissed when Long started climbing up draft boards
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Thank god
I wouldn’t be pissed about Berry or Suh. But man we need OL.
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by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Satch - I've been saying O-Line O-Line O-Line O-Line for weeks
1st round … 2nd round both picks … 3rd round …
and no, I’m NOT kiddding about that … get 4 and 2 of them won’t work out (at least for awhile) … it’s the position that takes longest to develop, and I’m STILL fried at Pioli for his Epic Failure to address the O-Line needs when he got here in last year’s draft
seriously, this whole season has been one massive trainwreck
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
Oh I know where you stand on drafting OL
I just hadn’t heard many people agreeing. I’m not sure we need to go quite that OL heavy…but 3 years in the top 5 and we don’t take a tackle? That would be just horrible imo.
As for epic fail. I’m more of teh opinion that there’s just too much to fix in one year. 1st time HC gets a 2 year pass from me. New GM gets 3 years to build his team. I certainly don’t agree with everything or even most of what they have done. I just choose to give them time to follow their plan. If their plan turns out to be fail. I’ll grab a pitchfork.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
I would like to see
the high second rounder go on the right side of the line and the latter second rounder go in trade for a vet with several years of solid play in front of him. Retain Brian Waters for one more year.
And, although it does not seem popular, I wouldn’t mind seeing the first rounder go on a RB and make Jamaal Charles our KR/PR, averaging maybe 3 – 5 carries per game offensivly.
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
Is that some sort of a joke?
And, although it does not seem popular, I wouldn’t mind seeing the first rounder go on a RB and make Jamaal Charles our KR/PR, averaging maybe 3 – 5 carries per game offensivly.
Of all the things wrong with the Chiefs you would draft a RB with the number 3 pick?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 3:36 PM CST up reply actions
I see the quote thingy messed up...either that or I did..
How’d my sig get in the block quote?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 3:37 PM CST up reply actions
Dove - you ... are out of your everlovin' MIND! (said with all due respect, of course!!! =hi, Joel/Chris=)
seriously? RB in 1st round? and the only RELIABLE offensive weapon we have right now relegated to kick return team?
riiiiiiiight … I’m gonna back away REAL SLOWLY here …
must step AWAY from the computer and breathe
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
Yeah that is just plain crazy. Does Dove even know LJ isn't on the team anymore?
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Easy
she’s entitled to her opinion
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 4:37 PM CST up reply actions
Dove has insight on Jamaal's shoulder, maybe it's his Mama
… but I think Charles is better than JUST another Dante Hall
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
I have no more "insight"
than anyone else. My points are still valid. Is that some crack about my perceived “female intuition”? I react solely to what I have seen as fact.
I do NOT want to be the “emotional girl” on this site. But, do you have any idea how hard it is for a female to get respect on sports sites? I have played so many male screenames it would make your head spin. Males get equal respect/ridicule. Females get either too much attention or too little.
My ideas are as valid as any other. If you wanna dog me as a lesser fan, I’ll just come back under a male name and make you look stupid.
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
That was in reply
to upamtn…not sure if it came out right or not
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
Hope I didn't offend you (called you crazy) but.....
….I could care less if you are a woman, man, dog, cat, fish, bird…. it doesn’t matter. The fact is you “wouldn’t mind” seeing the #3 pick in the draft going on a running back when we have a young RB hauling the load for this team. Jamaal Charles is turning into a superstar at his current pace, if we were to, in essence, bench him….. disfunction is all I could describe that as. We would be the Lions. Had you made this statement 7-8 weeks ago then yeah I could understand that. I will agree that we need another RB to help take some load off of JC but that should be addressed through FA or a later round pick. Besides what RB in this draft excites you enough to take with the #3?
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
It works in several ways.
First, it does not need to be the “number 3 pick” (see above) or wherever we end up. I would like to see them trade down.
But the bottom line is that we need a player that can play NOW, and such is typically expected of first round RBs .
Also, Jamaal Charles is 199 lbs and his shoulder keeps popping out of place. I commend his toughness for getting it popped back into place and going back into the game, but he will only be able to do that so many times. He is not built to carry the load a “featured back” if he wants a long career.
It also gives “semi-depth” at RB. If the rookie goes down, JC is the RB and someone else takes return duties.
And if you look at the rest of the post, I am picking up 2 OL with the second round picks (one rookie, one vet) for the new RB to run behind, along with JC taking a small number of carries each game.
Special teams would rock (Colquitt, Succop, and Charles) and you would have a new RB (+ JC’s limited carries) with an improved OL to run behind by the end of the second round.
I would be fine with that.
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
It was pretty obvious to any Chiefs fan that OL was the biggest problem
And you’re right Pioli didn’t really bring in any cornerstone pieces to the OL. (O’call has been OK, not great…but better than previous RT’s)
If I had my way it would go something like this for next year.
Okung, Albert, Waters, Rookie or FA, O’Call.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 11:36 AM CST up reply actions
Frankly
O’Cal has been our best. Albert sure looks like a guard at this point. And Waters may just be done.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
I like Grunny's idea - c_l_c posted it above
move Waters to C and Albert to LG, Okung as LT … still think we need him AND more youngsters on the O-Line
Albert has a TON of potential and Waters can do a lot in terms of coaching him and others (he remembers those kickass O-Lines with Roaf and Shields) … O’Cal maybe for now … Rudy MAYBE move to RG (or just backup) … but we need more young studs there … many more, and I just SO want Okung (Berry will be the glamor pick, Okung fills a bigger need)
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
Even though I agree to an extent
and next year we might be not much better than this year. That would be 4 guys in new spots and one Rookie at LT. I would much prefer to bring in a 2-3 round LT and let him beat Albert out for the LT spot.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
I think this is the biggest blight on the Peterson era.
Carl was too gutless to pic a QB and then let him play and develop.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Dec 31, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions
He tried with Brodie
But the level of talent as well as the offensive scheme were horrendous. The poor kid never had a fucking chance.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
He did try with Brodie
But that was the ninth draft after the Pat Barnes pick. Unless one counts Kilian, that means KC went a decade without investing a serious pick in a quarterback, and well over a decade without investing more than a fourth-round pick. Before Barnes in the 4th in 1997 it was Stenstrom in the 4th in 1995. Before that, Steve Matthews from Memphis (!) in 1994.
KC’s last first- or second-round pick on a QB? Matt Blundin from Virginia, whom they took in 1992 in the second round.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Yep, and it doesn't get any better before Blundin
The QB pick prior to Blundin was Mike Elkins in 1989, also in the second round.
Before him there were a couple of late-rounders in Danny McManus (11th rd. 1988) and Doug Hudson (7th rd. 1987). Before those guys, you guessed it: Todd Blackledge, #7 overall in 1983.
I repeat: KC has not drafted a QB in the first round since 1983. I’m sure many are aware of this, but remembering this should be like remembering the Alamo.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions
The Blackledge pick has to be the all time most disastrous KC draft pick.
Hell, we passed on Marino to get him…Fucking Marino!
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
My current field of work is in organization and strategy consulting for a particular agency of the US gov't
I am thinking of a project consisting of analysis of the system failure of teams like KC, Detroit, etc. and possible remedies. I’m hoping that by the time I have free time to undertake such a thing on my own, the Chiefs will be a great team once again.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions
Good luck with that.
I’m sure there are many NFL GMs who would be interested in what you come up with…Pioli might be able to get some use out of that.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 31, 2009 1:30 PM CST up reply actions
I'm sure Pioli knows more about it than I ever could
Or, since it’s based on failure, maybe he doesn’t, and he should consult Carl Peterson on it!
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions
Todd Blackledge
will work out. Just give him time to develop.
Predictions:
1) Fans will feel just scads better from mid-to-end of the 2010 season.
2) During the 2021 season, Ryan Succop will become the Chiefs’ all-time leading scorer with 1469 points.
almost everyone passed on Marino, he was the 27th of 28 first round picks that year
Elway 1 overall, Blackledge 7, Jim Kelly 14, Tony Eason 15, Kenny O’Brien 24, and Marino
Bills did well with Kelly … Pats (Eason) and Jets not so well, Dolphins hit the jackpot (all but SB, but don’t blame Marino)
hi, Mo!
5 minutes!!!
If we could get a 2nd rounder
Or better for DJ than Id be happy. He’s easily the best ILB we have, but I think we could
get someone better in the 2nd and definitely 1st rounds.
Check out my blog on software development:
http://www.turnleafdesign.com/
by Scaryclouds on Dec 31, 2009 9:02 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
There's no way he brings a 2nd
In fact, I think Jamaal Charles and Glenn Dorsey are about the only players on the team who could bring in a 2nd all by himself.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:05 AM CST up reply actions
Flowers
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions
I doubt it
I thought about him, and he’s pretty close, but I doubt KC could get a 2nd for him if they were to put him on the block right now, or immediately after the season.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:15 AM CST up reply actions
High end cover corners are very hard to find
He’d bring a 2nd minimum.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions
minimum?
He sure as hell wouldnt bring a 1st.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Not a 1st
And I think a 2nd would be very debatable. I don’t think he’s a high-end corner yet. He’s certainly above average right now. He’s also small, so he’s not necessarily suited to every scheme, which can reduce overall demand and thus the price.
On the other hand, Deion Branch fetched a pretty pick, so who knows?
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
Of course the argument is moot
At least hopefully it is….there is no reason we would trade our best defensive player.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
Hopefully the argument is moot...
The Chiefs would never trade their best defensive player…right?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:37 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
But if I were trying to trade him (which I wouldn’t) I wouldn’t take less than a 2nd and a mid round pick.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
Absolutely
As clc says, there’s no reason to trade him. He’s young, he’s good, he’s relatively cheap, and it’s highly unlikely that KC would get a positive return on any such deal.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:38 AM CST up reply actions
The numbers are for 2008
Only up to date chart I could find but they don’t vary much from the current numbers.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 31, 2009 9:10 AM CST up reply actions
Regardless, for guys drafted in the first and second rounds, it appears that it makes more sense to tender the guy the amount based on the round in which the guy was originally picked than to tender for the second-round amount.
In the case of someone drafted in the first round, tendering $927,000 brings the same result as tendering a guy $2.017 million, or whatever the 2009 adjustments to those numbers end up being.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 31, 2009 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
Yep
unless you don’t want the guy. In which case you tender him at a price you think you can get or no tender at all.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
So what we are saying is
While this is our list of players that we could tender…the list for other teams would be similar. Therefore when looking at the free agent market for next year; the list of available free agents may not be as big as some may think without the Chiefs giving up draft picks to sign them?
Yes
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:27 AM CST up reply actions
Then most of all good free agents in the upper 20s age would fall in the tender group
I would assume that most teams with a good player in that age range are going to get tendered? So, that would leave only guys in there 30s as FA options without costing the chiefs draft picks? Therefore, do we see the Chiefs going wild in FA next year to fill holes if the cost is going to be future daft picks?
Very little difference really
High end players in their mid 20s rarely hit the market anyway. Only difference is that teams will get them for cheaper than in years past. They can tender instead of extending or franchising.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 31, 2009 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
Sad ain't it:(
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions
Picks and the money too
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 31, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
The Free Agent market and NFL are full of players WAITING to reach their potential.
It seems KC has to be at least willing to improve at all positions at this time. Why? Because KC flat out doesn’t have even a top 5 dominating player at any single position, excluding punter and kicker.
Ask yourself this question about the defensive line. Does KC have a D lineman that requires double teaming the vast majority of the time? If your answer is no, as mine is, then you can see that this alone could change things for any number of average looking players on defense. Think about that for a moment. What if Dorsey had to be double teamed 80% of the time on pass plays? What then happens for Hali, Johnson, Williams, Flowers, Carr?
by BCRavenJHawkfan on Dec 31, 2009 11:10 AM CST reply actions
Dorsey DOES command doubles most of the time and...
If you watch the D-line, T-Jax get’s doubled quite a bit as well. Our weakness up front is the NT position. The opposing Centers can take on Ron Edwards one on one and get all push they need to open up holes.
If those two guys are getting doubled as you indicate then where are the unblocked
rushers?
One other point about the D-line. Do they collapse the pocket?
by BCRavenJHawkfan on Dec 31, 2009 11:24 AM CST reply actions
good question
generally, KC’s blitzers are getting blocked pretty well… so I’m not sure why they can’t get an unblocked LB in there… I said before that it is partially because the Chiefs do a poor job of disguising their blitzes… the offense generally sees exactly who’s coming, and allocates protection to those guys.
And, I think hali, Dorsey, and Vrabel do a good job of collapsing the pocket from the edges, but there generally isn’t much “collapse” up the middle (Edwards)
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
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