Grunhard: Waters Could Be Better Off As A Center
by Joel Thorman on Dec 29, 2009 7:04 PM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintQuite a few folks have targeted the Kansas City Chiefs center as a possible position to upgrade heading into the offseason. For what it's worth, former Chiefs center Tim Grunhard thinks Waters could be a center for the Chiefs.
Waters actually played center first coming into Kansas City. Grunhard has a unique viewpoint on this because Waters was actually backing him up his first season with the Chiefs. He admits to Waters being "a good friend of mine" but says he hasn't played well for the last couple seasons.
"I think if he looks at himself he would honestly say the same thing," Grunhard said on The Program on 810 WHB. "He didn't play very good this year at the guard position. I don't know if that's because of the offense, the running or injuries."
Grunhard then said, considering the current state of the Chiefs roster, he would rather see Waters play center. He said Waters can play the position. In fact, Grunhard's first game as a fan in the stands at Arrowhead, Waters played center against the Raiders.
"I think he needs a shot of new blood, new life," Grunhard said. "And maybe that could be something because he's a leader. At the center position you can do a bunch of different things and hide the guy better than you could at the guard position."
Interesting take.
I know everyone's a GM right now but Grunhard's offensive line wishlist appears to go something like this: Draft LT (Okung), Albert at LG, Waters at C, Niswanger/someone else at RG, Draft/FA RT.
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fine with me
IF he were to move to C, that could help the line overall.
I’d still want KC to draft a Center for the future, and they’d have to draft a G or T, depending on what happened with Albert…
but, this is one of many scenarios that could work…
I’d keep O’Callaghan, though… you can’t replace the whole line in one year.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
Personally I think O'Cal
has earned the RT position until someone comes along and beats him out. I think he stood out as the best O lineman this year, even though he got a late start. I would address this position on the line last however if it needs addressing for next season.
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
agreed
Personally I think Ocall has earned the RT spot, or at least strong consideration to being a solid starter at RT….Albert to guard I 100 percent agree with as well, and waters to center is fine…Im not sold on Okung, I think there are some big holes on D I’d love to see filled…we will see.
I think it's really important
to get STARTERS in the first 3 rounds (at least) for the biggest Positions of Need…
1 OL
1 S
1 NT or LB (depending on what they do in FA)
and MAYBE 1 WR, RB or CB that can return kicks
So, it doesn’t matter much to me if they get the Safety in round one, OT in round 2 or vice versa, so long as they get THEIR guy that can come in and start right away
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
I've actually been saying this for most of the season
Niswanger has performed poorly for a while now and would be a better fit at Guard where he can use his size more to his advantage.
I’d still take Berry or Suh 1st but if neither is available Okung would be a good value pick as well. Just slide Albert back to LG where he played college ball and move Waters to C. Keep O’Cal at RT and let Niswanger/Alleman/Ndukwe/Goff/Taylor duke it out for the RG spot in camp. I’d cut Goff and Niswanger for sure but the more competition the better when it comes to camp battles for interior OL spots.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
can't argue with that
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
Taylor?
Ummm no Smith or Richardson even considered? What about Nieswanger, he’s outta position but there is always room for a tough smart football player.
Meant Smith, not Taylor
B.Rich is a monster physically but has had a couple years to show he’ll ever be more than a gigantic tub full of potential and just hasn’t gotten it done. Physically, he’s got the tools but just can’t bring any of that to the field on gamedays. Niswanger’s footwork is too weak for any OL spot other than Guard imo, he’s struggled at C and I don’t see any way he’d be at all effective in pass blocking, certainly not well enough to unseat Albert or O’Cal at the Tackles.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
Also, I'd leave Colin Brown and Darryl Harris on the PS
They’d obviously get a chance to show their worth in camp but without seeing how they perform every day in practice there’s just not enough information to project them as anything more than PS players.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
Did you say Taylor?
As in Herb Taylor?
Welcome to Chiefs REBUILD - Version 2.0 /The Clark Hunt Edition
Chiefs will be lucky to go 4-12 in 2010
by KansasCityShuffle on Dec 29, 2009 7:51 PM CST up reply actions
haha, I didn't even notice that
maybe he meant Brown or Smith ?
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
Sorry bout that
meant to say Smith. Muh’ bad!
Once again, I find myself wishing for an “edit” button.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
All good
I thought I was out of touch with the Chiefs but you there sir about took the cake.
Welcome to Chiefs REBUILD - Version 2.0 /The Clark Hunt Edition
Chiefs will be lucky to go 4-12 in 2010
by KansasCityShuffle on Dec 29, 2009 7:58 PM CST up reply actions
This is what I've been saying
He also said he thought Nieswanger might be better suited as a Tackle, which is another thing I’ve said, but I wasn’t certain if he had the feet, but Grunhard seems to think he has.
I said it first John back in July...then you said it
j/k :)
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
Don't misunderstand SD
Grunhard did say he might be better at guard, I just wanted to add the part he said about Nieswanger as a Tackle.
I'd say G would be his best OL fit
Footwork isn’t as complex at G as it is at T and his height wouldn’t be a problem like at C.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
i'm not sure Okung
would be a better LT than Albert. Wouldn’t we be better off drafting another position withour 1st and drafting a G in the second or getting 1 in FA? I like the idea od Waters at C, but not sold on Okung (or any LT this year) with our 1st pick
agreed
I’d take berry
then, take a long look at the OTs in the 2nd (Black, Capers, Young, Fox)
and the OG/C prospects from rounds 2-4
Get 2 new OL prospects, and see how they shake out in the offseason.
I’d expect Albert, Ndukwe, Alleman, O’Callaghan, Waters to still be in the mix along with Alleman and Colin Brown and B Rich (backup)
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
Stag I agree... but there is a monkeywrench!
If we are drafting number 3 it will be unlikely to draft Berry. Yet I hope that either we can trade down or win against the Broncos and get the number 6 pick and get Berry. If we are stuck at number 3 we should consider Rolando McClain, or Dan Williams(if we don’t get a NT in free agency).
I like Iupati more so than I do any of the offensive linemen mentioned. I think that if we pick him up in the 2nd round that leaves us more versatile on the line.
I'm not sure KC WOULDN'T draft Berry at #3, if they think he's as good as advertised
Iupati would be GREAT in the 2nd round, and McClain or Wiliams would be ideal mid-first round picks
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
I Agree
if Pioli and Haley decide Berry is the real deal, I don’t see them passing, especially if he could make the transition to Corner.
As (I like this term, it sounds so um politically correct) talent deficient as the Chiefs are, they need to maximize their picks by improving the most positions with as few picks as possible. Berry/Flowers as “shut down Corner” other one plays 2nd Corner, Carr Nickle, Leggit,? I dunno, shot at Safety maybe. Theoretically improving 3 maybe 4 positions with one pick.
He's a Safety than can play CB in a pinch
not the other way around. The only reason anyone is projecting him as a CB is his speed and fluid hips/feet. Anyone drafting him in the top 5 is going to be drafting him to play FS, not CB simply because there are more viable options at CB than there are at FS in this year’s draft (which is a pretty common trend year-in, year-out).
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
I have no
opinion on IF he can make the transition or not, above my pay grade, but I expect Pioli to know err at least have a strong opinion one way or the other.
Totally disagree with you that a true shut down corner is easier to come by in most drafts, there is a reason that it’s a common belief that to get value out of a top 5 pick it needs to be a position that can change a game, and those positions are QB, Left Tackle, Pass Rusher or Corner. Been that way for a long time.
Safety in the 34 is the QB of the Defense
they’re the ones that have the best view of the “big picture” on each play and are invaluable for calling out reads and leading the secondary. IF Berry had been a true shut down corner in college then I’d be more quick to consider him a potential shut down corner in the NFL too but since he has played almost no CB in college there’s just almost no evidence to support that claim other than the success he’s had at FS.
He’s likely to be more important to the team at safety than CB. That’s not to say he can’t be a good Corner in the NFL but he’s statistically less likely to be a game-changer there than at FS. Carr is a good young corner and is more than adequate as our CB2 and we’ve got a lot more depth at the position than we do at Safety, where we’re decidedly thin.
Furthermore, I never said it was always easier to find a shut down corner than a game-changing center fielder. What I said was that this years’ draft
is deeper at Corner than at FS. Therefore, logic says it should be easier to find a talented corner (if we were to look for one, which I don’t think we should or will) outside rd1 than it would be to find a comparably talented FS.
Sure, generally speaking, top 5 picks are reserved to QBs, LTs, and rush DEs but that’s hardly the only way to get value from the pick. Depending on the schemes your team runs drafting DL, LB, or RB are all perfectly good ways of finding value.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
Must have misinterpited this
“there are more viable options at CB than there are at FS in this year’s draft (which is a pretty common trend year-in, year-out).”
Sorry my bad. LOL
We just disagree on which position is more important and easier to fill.
Why would it be unlikely to draft Berry at 3?
I think that’s actually the most likely scenario as of today. Taking McClain or Williams at 3 would be a bigger reach than DHB at 7 last year.
Going OL 1st would only be a reasonable pick if both Berry and Suh are gone. Ideally, we’d wait til 2-5 to go OL.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
The highest paid safety is Oshiomogho Atogwe at 6.3 million.
Ed Reed makes 3.6 mil
Troy Polamalu makes 2.9 mil
Going on the conservative side Eric Berry will make 8.5 million a year making him the highest paid safety, and paid way way to much for the safety position. Darryl Stuckley can be had in the 2nd round and will come at a 1/10 the cost.
I don’t see Pioli opening the checkbook for a safety at the number 3 spot.
by ravenhawk on Dec 29, 2009 8:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
That's why I say
IF he can play Corner it would be a hell of a lot easier to justify drafting him at 3. But unless Pioli see’s a guy he thinks can start immediately at NT (Cody outta Bama possibly) I think he has to take Berry even if it is as a Safety.
There is always the possibility that the BPA in Pioli’s eye may not be an OL or Safety it may be a LB’er or WO or god forbid another DE.
The pick doesn't fit a holee if he plays Corner... as I don't see Carr playing safety better than what we have.
The logical pick is Okung(when it comes to money). If you put money aside I would love the pick, Stag and I have been on the same page. Its just the money thing that will get in the way if we draft 3.
I prefer us picking Rolando McClain and Dan Williams over Russel Okung. Yes it is a reach, but it fills a need and is more money for the buck. Not to mention an upgrade in the middle. The thing I don’t like is we have another young defensive lineman in Williams.
Are you sure it's not a position of need?
Hey I love Flowers and Carr. They’ve been bright spots, but both, hell ALL the Chiefs secondary has had probs with shoulder injuries going back to last season, their undersized.
I didn’t have Carr at Safety, I said possibly Leggit at Safety, Carr as the Nickel. I’m certainly not trying to diss either Flowers or Carr but ya have to consider all the injuries as a concern and if you can upgrade 3 spots with one pick, I say do it!
Gotcha... so even if we didn't draft Berry...
You would bring Leggett to the safety position.
That's where he was at when he went down.
I think we’ve all seen that Page ain’t the one. If your trying to imply I don’t think the Chiefs need a safety your wrong, I think they need one starter for sure and he ain’t on the roster right now, unless Price is him, and I doubt that.
Nope... I'm not implying that at all.
Re-reading what I wrote I can see how that can be misinterpreted. I thought that Leggett was playing nickle and corner before he went down with the IR.
He was
but he was also the emergency backup at safety and was seeing some practice reps there as well as a few reps/game at safety to see what he could do there.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
So you'd rather reach down ~5-10 picks for McClain or Williams
and overpay them rather than take a player with the talent to warrant a #3 and give him the same money?
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
Nope... Ideally I would pick Berry and have been on the bandwagon for some time.
I just find that the Chiefs brass seems to be stingy on the money bags.
Really?
Because they shelled out a lot of money to Cassel before he’d played a down in a Chiefs uni and were less than shy about taking a 3-4 DE 5 overall despite the buckets of money required to do it.
I’d say Pioli is less stingy and more frugal. Seems to me like he’s more concerned with finding the right players than he is with saving a few mil. For the right player(s) they’re more than willing to sign on the dotted line so long as they feel it’s money well spent and in Berry’s case, it almost assuredly would be.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
If he's rational
and he is, he won’t see LB, WR, or DE as being a bigger need than Safety or NT.
Also, Berry will probably end up a better pro than Atogwe and both Reed and Polamalu are grossly underpaid for the kind of impact they regularly have on games.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
I agree Berry will be better than Atogwe...
I’m not sold on Stuckley, but he should be an upgrade at Safety for the Chiefs(yet I would rather address other needs in the 2nd round).
If the pocket books are going to be opened up… they need to address the NT. Vince Wilfork or Casey Hampton need to be asked what they want to be paid to play in KC, and then pay the man. The NT position is more important, and needs to be addressed with money before we decide to overpay for a safety.
All I’m saying is when you don’t hear Berry’s name if the Chiefs pick number 3 it is because they didn’t want to overpay a safety.
There's no other realistic option
Pioli doesn’t mind dishing out big money for the right guy at the right position and Berry is both of those. No one else other than Suh comes close to being a good fit for the #3.
I was told the same thing by dozens of people last year when I said we were going to take TJ once Pioli was hired. “You don’t pay that kind of money for a 34 DE” was the standard rebuttal and we all know how that turned out.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
I would have been one of the few to agree with you last year...
I actually was wanting Orakpo last draft, but was told that he was nothing more than a workout warrior. He would have gotten the same money T Jacks received.
Don't get me wrong
I’m a huge fan of Stuckey. He’ll be a stud for somebody in the NFL sooner than later and he’d be my pick if we go with Suh in the 1st. But why wouldn’t he be willing to pay a Safety #3 money? He took a 3-4 DE at 5 last year and made him the highest paid rookie in franchise history (iirc) without batting an eye.
Pioli has shown throughout his career in NE, and with his first pick in KC, that positional value trumps all when it comes to the draft. We are in pretty serious need of a blue chip safety and leader and there simply isn’t a better option than Berry.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
I hope we do get Berry and pay him 8.5 million
because tht would give Ed Reed and Troy Polamalu a huge baragaining chip and hopefully raise their salary. They both deserve to be paid more
I don't think the O-Line is as big a need as it seemed early on
Smith SHOULD have been in the starting line up all along his presence has made a huge difference.( been saying that since last season too.) I don’t feel the O-Line has such a glaring talent deficit anymore.
agree, somewhat
I like Smith as the utility lineman, not in the starting lineup, if possible
But, the OL certainly has come a long way, and there are the makings of a good, and deep line.
They just need 1-2 STUDS to take the play up a notch.
Albert, Waters, Rookie, Ndukwe, O’Callaghan
OR
Rookie, Albert, Waters, Ndukwe, O’Callaghan
those are a couple of options that I’d be fine with, knowing that
Smith, Brown, Niswanger, Alleman, Richardson are there for depth
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
My point is, I think there is enough
pieces in place on the O-Line to drop it down on the priority list by 4 or 5 rounds. IMO. If the powers that be decide to go that route.
yessir, I agree that it can be dropped down, IF they decide to go that route
but, I think they SHOULD draft ONE offensive lineman by the time they are done picking in round 3
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
You ignored both
Safety and NT, two of the three most gaping holes on our team right now.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
Well BPA would be Berry, not ignored and we are going to have to pick up a NT in free agency, we dont have time to groom another d-lineman
No time? No Time for what?
No matter who the Chiefs draft this season, they ain’t gonna be a SB team in the next 2 or 3 years anyway.
I’m not saying we can’t draft a project NT but we need someone to make an impact now, A safety can contribute right out of college, a linebacker can do the same, as everyone on here knows, d-lineman take time to reach potential. any defense that is strong down the middle is going to be good, impact free agent NT, draft a MLB, and Berry at safety our D immediately jumps to middle of the league instead of the bottom
I've always like Tim Grunhard
he was the anchor of the line during the marty era. when the Chiefs was known for one thing other than DT58, it was our o-line.
So I am liking Grunhard’s suggestions
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 29, 2009 9:08 PM CST reply actions
Muir has done a spectacular job considering the crap he had to work with
Coming into the season we had 2, count ’em 2, OL worth anything in Waters and Albert. It took the better part of the season to do it but our line has been doing a much better job lately than they were earlier in the year despite several injuries and replacements across the board.
Besides, Grunny is doing a bang-up job as the HC at Bishop Miege, no need unnecessarily rob them of their Coach of the Year when we’ve got a proven OL coach already on staff.
Bask in the glory that is Kwame Harris. Poor Alex...
Joel, I love that!!!!
LT (Okung), Albert at LG, Waters at C, Niswanger/someone else at RG, Draft/FA RT.
been saying for weeks we need need need OLine OLine OLine
rec’d and yesssssssssssssssssssssssss … do it, Scott! ty Tim!!!
hi, Mo!
Rashard langfird
I thing we signed Rashard Langsford off Eagles practice squad. he is supposed to be beast. Maybe we will see him Sunday.. Big business after this Sundays game. Pioli said on radio couple weeks ago,, the flight back from Denver will be the start of the process!
So many needs will change before draft.. Sounds like fun
by BBell78 on Dec 30, 2009 1:11 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Draft/FA RT
I don’t know if you can draft a FART, but that would be a waste of pick…..don’t you think? :)
Plus the play of our O-Line did smell of something like a sewage treatment plant.
Opinions are like A--holes, everyones got one.
I been sayin
this needed to happen. move shouldve been made in training camp.
Paint ya shirt red like a Kansas City Chief
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