Chiefs QB Cassel Seeing More Penalties With Haley

by Joel Thorman on Dec 25, 2009 8:00 AM CST in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign

Bill Williamson of ESPN.com and ESPN Stats & Information have come up with a pretty interesting statistic that may or may not mean anything (great lead-in, right?).

Last season with Todd Haley calling the plays, Cardinals QB Kurt Warner received 11 penalties, which would lead the league right now.

Currently, Warner has just three penalties, which puts him towards the bottom of the league.

Last season, then Patriots QB Matt Cassel had just three penalties as well.

With Todd Haley calling the plays this season, Cassel has 8 penalties, which is the third highest in the NFL.

Haley's obviously the connection but why? I'm not quite sure. Cassel has four delay of game penalties, which is about fourth in the NFL.

Is Haley not putting his quarterback in the best position to get the ball snapped? I'm not exactly sure. Does it mean anything? Again, I'm not exactly sure.

What I do know is that just because you're penalized doesn't mean you're a bad quarterback. Two of the top quarterbacks in the NFL are first and second on this list - Carson Palmer and Brett Favre.

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I've noticed Cassel motioning to the sideline...

what I translated as “Hurry the **** up and give me a play to run.” a few times this season.

Don't Fuccop Succop

by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 25, 2009 8:11 AM CST reply actions

Yeah

Last year I noticed during his public shouting match with Anquan Boldin that Whisenhunt had to touch him on the arm, not so much to calm him down but to get him to call a play.

by zbschiefs on Dec 25, 2009 8:40 AM CST reply actions

Haley is fairly new to being an Offensive Coordinator as well as a head coach. He didn’t start calling plays for Arizona until late in 2007. So he’s had one full season and a few games in another as a play caller before he came into K.C. and is trying to do that PLUS the Head Coaching and QB coaching responsibilities, which he’s never done before.

He’s really trying to do 3 jobs that he doesn’t have a lot of experience in right now.

by ChiefDJ on Dec 25, 2009 10:58 AM CST reply actions

Not to mention..

That in AZ he had Warner that can read defenses as well as anybody in the league and was able to audible out of some of the BS plays Haley calls. I dont see Cassel audibling too much. But yes, Haley is taking on too much and I dont think he has handled it too well this season.
Really, Im still baffled as to how Haley got the head coaching job in the first place. He has never played football, does not have a real impressive resume, and like you said, was only a OC for a little over one season. I think he was the “flavor of the month” during his SB run with AZ and honestly,I wont be surprised if he stays or gets fired at the end of this season. If the Chiefs have a chance to get Cowher for next yr, I think Pioli HAS to look into it. Can Haley get better? Sure. But if you have a seasoned veteran coach with Cowhers resume and connections to the Steelers,(which is what we are trying to mirror) then I think you have to go after him. Regardless of having to “start over” or not

by KCinAZ on Dec 25, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions

Cowher is a pipe dream

Pioli came to K.C. because he wanted to be the guy in charge. Cowher isn’t going to go somewhere he doesn’t have full power. It just isn’t a realistic combo.

I really hope Pioli isn’t subject to the Flavor of the Month. I hope it had more to do with Haley having been under Parcells. If Haley was picked as a FotM, it speaks badly of both he and Pioli.

by ChiefDJ on Dec 25, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions

There was not a whole lot to choose from by the time...

Pioli was able to hire someone. Same scenario happened with our coordinators.

The reason I think that there might be a possibility to go for Cowher(if he even wants to coach) is that he may understand what he has in Pioli as a highly respected GM with a very impressive resume. Cowher may want LESS reponsibility and would feel comfortable relinquishing those responsibilities to a 4 time GM of the year. It would give Cowher the ability to coach with less headaches that come with having to do EVERYTHING. Cowher has ties to KC also. I just think he has shied away from coaching because of the grind and stress. I think if he knows he has a GM he can trust and he can focus only on coaching, he may look at it as an ideal situation and be lured back into coaching…..I may be totally wrong, but that is how I would sell it if I was trying to bring him in.

by KCinAZ on Dec 25, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions

Actually, some of the pre-snap shifts were clearly (to me, which isn't ever clear) designed to give Cassel the option.

And he took it. I think they were more limited early on in what the O-Line could be relied upon to do, let alone the revolving door at TE, WR, … We’ll see more of it.

As for Haley’s resume, the way they’re built is by guys above seeing potential in you and promoting you. And here at the end of the season, we’re seeing the players asserting ownership – not rebellion, mind, but ownership. Teachers/coaches who achieve that usually start slow, but are the best at what they do.

Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.

by hmills110 on Dec 25, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions

You guys may have more foresight in this...

But from what I have seen so far this season he has not been good in any phase of the game. Bad decisions, bad talent evaluation, bad game management, and the team has showed little improvement. Ive seen the O-line play a little better, less penalties….but the recieving corps(Haleys specialty) suck, the defense sucks, the young players are not “getting it” yet, the QB is not making good decisions or elevating his team as a leader, and the multiple first round picks on this team have not come into their own this late into the season. Hali and flowers have been bright spots, but Dorsey,T Jax,Albert,have stunk it up this yr. It was ok, to make the excuse at the beginning of the season, that they were in a new scheme, or rookies,ect….but 14 games into the season you should see these guys playing much better. It all comes back to Haley. I dont think he and his staff are doing a good job of coaching these guys. Dorsey was supposed to be the best player in the draft last yr. He should be starting to dominate by now, his second season.

by KCinAZ on Dec 25, 2009 2:43 PM CST up reply actions

All good points.

I’m always slow to throw the leadership under the bus. Should’ve heard me defending Marty back in the mid ’90s.

I think Albert’s better than he’s given credit for being, but I’m pretty sure he’s not ever going to be dominant, and the best way to shore up the O-Line might just be the “Draft left tackle, move him inside,” as many here have suggested. I’m not certain that one thing is what’s needed short-term, what with all the good that can likely be done at C, G, RT without throwing a 1st-rounder at the problem. I still think LT is a hallmark of dominant offense, though, so I’m conflicted.

by hmills110 on Dec 25, 2009 4:00 PM CST up reply actions

Bring back the days of QB's calling their own plays.

by BCRavenJHawkfan on Dec 25, 2009 2:02 PM CST reply actions

I'd like to see more of that.

Sometimes it’s like they forget that it’s your 11 against their 11 and the guys on the field should know what’s going on. it’s a game they’ve all played since childhood (mostly). I think a QB with guys in the booth overhead has a real edge, though, even if I think laminated and color-coded offensive game plans are overrated.

by hmills110 on Dec 25, 2009 4:08 PM CST up reply actions

lol....

playing a game they have played since childhood…being coached by a man that has never played a day in his life at any level. I bet he has helped them with their putting at some point this yr though..lmfao

by KCinAZ on Dec 25, 2009 5:05 PM CST up reply actions

AZ, are you sure he's never played at ANY level?

I thought he hadn’t played since HS or MS. I could be wrong…anyone got a link on that question?

"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"

-Marty Schottenheimer

by go_saleaumua on Dec 25, 2009 6:45 PM CST up reply actions

Haley

will be fine as a head coach just give him a chance. Its like everyone expected him to come in and be able to snap his fingers and have everything on this team fixed. There is no coach out there that would be able to do any better with this team, we have no talent. Everybody blames him for us not getting any better, you CANT teach talent, and I would argue that even as crappy as we’ve been this year we are better than last year. We have 1 more win than last year that is better and we could/should have 3-4 more wins. If the players on the field made a couple of plays here and there we could be sitting with 6-7 wins this year and then Haley would be looking like a genious for turning this crappy team around so quickly. Remember the coach is not out on the field, the players have to make plays in order for the team to win.

by badassz1987 on Dec 25, 2009 5:11 PM CST reply actions 1 recs

The problem is

He hasn’t fixed ANYTHING. Nobody expected to be in the Super Bowl this year. But considering he spent most of his career as a receivers coach, I think it is legitimate to have expected dropped balls to have not suddenly become a ridiculous issue for the team. Aside from that, the defense is STILL getting run all over and the offense STILL chokes on 3rd down and in scoring position.

The only thing you can point to as improvment is the fact that he FINALLY let Jamaal Charles play rather than deactivating him, but you can’t even give Haley credit for that because it took LJ getting kicked off the team for him to even give Charles a chance.

Everybody blames him for us not getting any better, you CANT teach talent,

Well what is a coach for then? That is EXACTLY what a coach is supposed to do. The level of talent in some places isn’t very good right now, but a good coach should be able to get more out of even average talent guys.

And don’t start the B.S. that there is NO good talent on the team. This team has a lot of players that should be playing a whole lot better than they are. Good coaching should be bringing that talent out in those guys.

by ChiefDJ on Dec 25, 2009 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

rec'd DJ, well said!

I’m thinking of changing my sig line to … Fire Todd Haley ~~Now~~ Yesterday

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Dec 25, 2009 5:41 PM CST up reply actions

hey you're pretty original...

not

Don't Fuccop Succop

by chicks_love_chiefs on Dec 26, 2009 12:49 AM CST up reply actions

They

have to have talent to be able to bring it out of them

by badassz1987 on Dec 25, 2009 5:48 PM CST up reply actions

Haley is far from a genius, and ...

has NO business even ATTEMPTING to pretend he can be HC and OC at the same time … none whatsoever

you argue that “you can’t teach talent” and I agree, but … half the roster has been turned over since last year … assuming that the most talented players stayed on the team (which is a leap of faith in my book anyway) then you have well over 20 players with SOME talent and the addition of another 20 who were SUPPOSEDLY signed BECAUSE they have talent … so, what’s to teach?

yelling and screaming, demoting players on the depth chart without being civil enough to even inform them first of their demotion, cussing like a sailor on national TV in your first game as HC, dumping one of the best OCs in the business TWO WEEKS before opening game and then expecting your offense to gel with a new system, new playbook and new terminology … all that and more … add up to the biggest clusterfuck of a train wreck I’ve seen in years … and it’s called The 2009 Kansas City Chiefs

if Herm Edwards had been half as bad as Haley he would have been run out of town even while he took the team to the playoffs in 2006, his first year here

we are worse than last year, and that’s on Pioli and Haley … we’d have those other 3 or 4 wins if Herm Edwards was still here … instead he have Todd The Great Pretender Haley

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Dec 25, 2009 5:38 PM CST up reply actions

Really

then why did we only have 2 wins last year. And we are not worse than last year, the only stat that matters is wins and we have 1 more than last year

by badassz1987 on Dec 25, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions

I respect your opinion, upamtn, but I disagree.

Last year’s team had no fire. None. I saw it with my own eyes. Defensive players let up on pursuit, and were only coerced to tackle if the offensive player fell at their feet. (Case in point: LenDale White, pre-weight loss, breaking free for an 80+-yard wallow across the field). Even if the talent level was better (which is a leap of faith in MY book), the defensive coaching wasn’t.

And say what we will about Chan Gailey, and we all have, he ran a college offense that didn’t get us anywhere in a game’s second half. I love me some CG, don’t get me wrong, but saying otherwise is revisionist history. Should he have been asked to stay for the duration of 2009? Probably—either that, or released from his contract back in February. We did him a disservice by keeping-&-firing him, and his departure has done the team a disservice, too.

"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"

-Marty Schottenheimer

by go_saleaumua on Dec 25, 2009 6:55 PM CST up reply actions

I say the above, by the way, and am STILL on record saying Clancy should be dropped.

In my humble but unworldly opinion, “The Pendergast Zone” will lead us to further disaster.

"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"

-Marty Schottenheimer

by go_saleaumua on Dec 25, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions

I agree

and I think he will be after the season is over

by badassz1987 on Dec 25, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions

Chan Gailey changed the offense in order to get SOME KIND of production out of Thigpen...

Thigpen was terrible in a Pro Style offense but he was our only option. Gailey had the foresight to see that and played to his strengths and not try to force him to do something he was not comfortable with. Haley could learn something from that. Playing to your teams strengths. When you have a weak roster with limited talent, you have to FIND something that works. That is what Gailey did…he found something that worked

by KCinAZ on Dec 25, 2009 9:28 PM CST up reply actions

But

what is Haley supposed to change and for whom? The offensive system is fine we just have receivers that cant catch the ball, that has nothing to do with the offense that we are running.

by badassz1987 on Dec 25, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions

badassz, agreed to a point - but I will contend that Haley is responsible for coaching them up so they DON'T drop all those passes

yeah yeah, you can’t coach talent – every one of those guys HAS talent, it’s a matter of focus, a matter of being comfortable and performing (players who are constantly under the gun are “tight” and will under-perform) and in the Haley System that’s how it is … always under the microscope and not allowed to just play ball

do you honestly think ANY of these guys would be at this level if they DIDN’T have talent? these guys have done this since grade school, and have been “groomed” to be what they are since HS and College … it’s not about “talent” here, it’s about coaching … Haley’s supposed to be such a whiz-kid boy genius, but I’m seeing the exact opposite: a little tyrant (when first hired and into the season) with no clue other than yell, scream and change the depth chart on a whim … that’s NOT the way to win friends and influence people, much less the way to make players feel at ease

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Dec 26, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions

I agree upamtn

Something is going on here…these guys are pros…studs coming out of college, catch hundreds of balls a day, and work on their craft just like any other player.Are there better recievers in the NFL? Of course.But, Either they are under too much pressure and scared to make a mistake, which in turn, makes them make mistakes, or they are being asked to change something in their technique that they are not comfortable with. Wade was the leading reciever in Minnesota last yr, played well in his first few games in KC, then all the sudden he started dropping balls. Chambers too. Chambers has not been near as bad as Wade, but its still starting to become an issue. Long showed some promise when he was first brought in too.
I hold the players accountable for poor focus, and I do agree with the premise of drops being “contagious” to some extent. But, Haley has these guys on pins and needles and I think it has A LOT to do with the drops.

by KCinAZ on Dec 26, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions

maybe it's the pressure to perform, or ... maybe it's the guy throwing the ball

whatever the reason, something is going on … how did we get to this? how do we suddenly have the WORST set of hands in the NFL? we didn’t have a “dropped balls” issue LAST year that I know of (all you Herm haters, take notice, please!)

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Dec 26, 2009 2:54 PM CST up reply actions

well

Bowe has always had a knack for dropping catchable balls, but he made big catches to make up for it so it was as noticable…but yeah, cassel has not been good either. I saw a pass he threw to Chambers a few weeks ago from bout 4 yrds away, thrown way to hard, and chambers had a guy on his back, falling down, the ball hits him in the forearm…..People on here started blaming Chambers. “Oh God,you gotta catch that!”…It was ridiculas to think a guy can catch a ball thrown that hard from 12 feet away with a guy draped all over him. Cassel does not get enough blame for his bad play. Holds the ball too long, takes too many sacks by not throwing the ball away, and misses too many throws…easy throws, deep passes over thrown, no touch…At the same time, I think he is expected to pass the ball waaay too much….which falls back on the playcaller.

by KCinAZ on Dec 26, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect that but

everyone that thinks Haley sucks and should be fired already, we were in like the bottom 5 of the league last year in both scoring offense and defense, show me a coach in the world that could have come in here and turned this thing around this year. Im not saying he is a perfect hc or he is the savior of this franchise but I believe he deserves a chance.

As for changing the offense to fit the players, I think that is a temporary solution to the problem. For long term its better to stick to your offense and bring in the players that fit your offense. I mean like last year yeah we changed the offense to fit Thigpen and it worked, but what happens if we did that then he got hurt for the year then you change it completly to match whoever you have at qb then. You cant just keep changing all the time to fit, you bring in players to fit your offense.

by banshee_01 on Dec 25, 2009 11:31 PM CST reply actions

or in our case, bring in players and then fire the OC 2 wks before the season starts ...

because you weren’t bright enough to figure out in the off-season that the players you got (QB) were for a different system?

whatever … the new regime has been far, far less than advertised, and I’d have been much happier to give Herm (with a mandatory game-day sideline assistant) and Chan another year … I think, along with another good draft (which we did NOT get from Pioli) we’d be at 6 wins already, and THAT would be progress, with the possibility of contending for division next year

instead, what Herm started LAST YEAR was scrapped in favor of the current trainwreck, and I’m disgusted with it, along with the apologists who stand up for this mess, excuse all the crap that’s gone down since Pioli and Haley got here, and think THIS crap is Herm’s fault

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Dec 26, 2009 11:45 AM CST up reply actions

what herm started last year, seriously

we had 2 fn wins last year and it wasnt herms 1st year ever as a hc. And would you rather they get rid of oc or have an oc and hc that dont see eye to eye and dont get along, how well do you think that would work. How about we give haley the 3 years we gave herm and see where we are at, i bet in year 3 we have more then 2 wins

by banshee_01 on Dec 26, 2009 8:01 PM CST up reply actions

considering Herm's first 2 years here amounted to Peterson bringing in retreads and more retreads ...

… it’s not really fair to say that Herm had 3 yrs here … he had one year, last year, which was the BEGINNING of a total rebuild … one year … here, I’ll spell it out for you: o-n-e y-e-a-r

ok? do you get it now? I hope so … ONE YEAR of a rebuild … and guess what? our best young players RIGHT NOW are the ones we got from Herm … not Carl, Herm … not Pioli, not Haley … get it? got it? good!

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Dec 27, 2009 3:04 AM CST reply actions