Looking Back: Scott Pioli's First Draft A Disaster
by ChiefDJ on Dec 20, 2009 8:01 PM CST
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PrintSave for Mr. Irrelevent, Ryan Succop, Scott Pioli's first draft for the Kansas City Chiefs has had almost no impact on improving the team. The draft is supposed to be an infusion of talent onto NFL teams and the Chiefs certainly needed more talent. Yet look at how little 2009s draft picks have contributed in their first year:
Round 1: Tyson Jackson
- Tackles: 20
- Assists: 8
- Sacks: 0
By this point in the 2008 season, Glenn Dorsey was being spoken of as a huge bust. By week 15, Dorsey had 38 tackles, 28 assists, and 1 sack.
Jackson was universally considered a reach when he was drafted #3 overall, but Pioli got a pass on it because of his reputation as a personnel guru in New England. He believed Jackson would turn into a keystone player in the future that the defense would be built around, and he might still turn out to be that guy. Or he might not. Even if you don't believe in tackling stats for defensive linemen, Jacksons part in the Chiefs 30th ranked run defense (before giving up 350 yds rushing to the Browns today) should be further evidence of his ineffectivness.
I'm not about to call Jackson a bust after less than 1 year and I still hold out hope that as he is surrounded by better players and gets more experience that he will become the player Pioli reached for. But he clearly has done nothing to help the 2009 Chiefs defense.
Round 3: Alex Magee
- Tackles: 8
- Assists: 6
- Sacks: 2
Magee is used largely as a situational player, normally only coming into the game on 3rd downs as part of a two man front with Tyson Jackson. He started for the first time against the Browns with Dorsey injured and registered 0 stats.
Clearly we haven't seen a lot of Magee yet and the fact that it takes defensive linemen time to develop means that Magee should improve over time. But on a team in a huge talent deficit that had taken a Defensive linemen 5th overall in 2008 and 3rd overall in 2009, Pioli decided to take a backup defensive linemen, not even a nose tackle with the second pick of his regime. It still leaves me scratching my head.
4th Round: Donald Washington
Tackles: 3
Normally you don't expect a lot from the 4th and later rounds, but on a team as bad as the Chiefs, you expect to see the coaching staff trying to develop young guys and give them some reps. Not so with Donald Washington. Even when Maurice Leggett fell out of favor and was moved out of the Nickel Back position, Washington didn't get a shot to play. In the last 8 games, Washington has only gotten on the field on defense once. It's not as though the Patriots rejects that have been playing instead are doing a great job. Why is Washington not getting on the field?
5th Round: Colin Brown
Not much to say about Brown. He got hurt somehow early in the season and has been on IR (not developing) ever since.
6th Round: Quinten Lawrence
- Receptions: 1
- Rec. Yds: 9
- Rushes: 1
- Rush Yds: 16
- Kickoff Ret Avg: 19.75 yds
A lot of people were excited about Lawrence because he was supposed to be a speed guy. But that never showed up on the field. He was tried out primarily as as a return man, but never had a return longer than 26 yds and most were much much shorter. He frequently dropped passes, showing an inability to make catches over the middle, often flinching from balls where he thought he was going to get hit.
Lawrence has been on and off the practice squad a few times and currently was released on Dec. 20th and has not yet been resigned. Not a huge loss, he is only a 6th round pick after all.
7th Round: Javaris Williams
- Rushes: 3
- Rush Yds: -2
On and off the practice squad, probably wouldn't be on the 53 man roster if not for all the injuries to RBs.
Receptions: 0
O'Connell seemed to be a guy Pioli really liked for some reason and has been given quite a number of opportunities, often at the expense of last years 3rd rounder Brad Cottam. So far though, O'Connell has 0 receptions and has dropped a lot of big passes.
What does Haley have against Cottam? He let the piss poor blocking Sean Ryan start most of the 1st half of the season (remember him? Oh he's still taking a roster spot, even though he's no longer playing). Leonard Pope is a Haley guy and has done OK, though he often looks like he has his head up his butt. O'Connell couldn't catch a cold and yet, Cottam has mostly been benched and playing a little Special Teams. Against the Browns, the first game he was really targeted much in the passing game, he had 4 receptions for 62 yds.
7th Round: Ryan Succop
84% FG accuracy
It took until the last pick of the draft to find Pioli's bright spot. Chiefs fans have really taken a liking to Ryan Succop.
So in Pioli's first shot at team building the Chiefs via the draft, we have a decent little FG Kicker (though at this point at least certainly not a superstar), 1 starter who has performed poorly and a situational backup. I think its safe to say that every one of the rest of those players picked up in the 4th round or later will be in the fight of their lives for a job in training camp next year.
The question is, were these mediocre or poor picks by Pioli, or a poor job of coaching them up by Haley?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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My biggest problem
was the scouting crew on last years draft were still herm guys…
"Speed...(long pause)....Kills." -- Lenny Dawson (on JC)
That has been hashed out before....
Pioli was doing his own scouting for a 3-4 Defense and a similar offense in NE. It doesn’t matter what his scouting staff was doing here.
rehashing
yes he was doing his own scouting for 3-4 and NE offense…
but without his own scouting department, he was probably not given best info to help in forming the draft…
this year will be different after cleaning house
by kcstevesportsfan on Dec 25, 2009 1:53 PM CST up reply actions
I would count Cassel and Vrabel as well since they took our 2nd round pick.
Makes the draft a little better. If Magee and one other turn out okay, I think the draft will end up average or just below. Nobody has all of their picks work out and many don’t ever make an impact. This class never really interested me since I don’t think they knew what they even needed at that point. If they blow the next one, then I’ll be pissed.
by BinSC on Dec 20, 2009 8:18 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
yep
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
HUH?
This class never really interested me since I don’t think they knew what they even needed at that point.
Regardless……..any player taken with the third overall pick better contribute…….a lot!…especially this deep into the season. They reached and I personally think they blew it….Ive said it since the day they drafted Jackson…There was much better players on the board, 3-4 good O linemen, a couple bad ass recievers, Curry, who was considered the best player in the draft…..they blew it!
To be fair, Curry has been terrible this season
And I don’t think he would’ve fit into our 3-4.
by SoCalChief17 on Dec 21, 2009 1:46 AM CST up reply actions
How does he not fit into our 3-4?
Hopefully for the final time (but I’m not holding my breath), it takes d-lineman a few years to develope. If Jackson is still playing like he is 3 years from now, then I will be the first to label him Ginourmas Bust! Until then, this whole argument is futile.
by Fourstrike89 on Dec 21, 2009 8:10 AM CST up reply actions
I also wouldn't describe his as terrible for the first year:
54 tackles 7 assist 2 sacks 2 forced fumbles, started 14 games.
Jackson did in fact look terrible yesterday. Just getting blown off the ball. I am so sick of him trotting back into the screen well after the play has been made just trying to seems relevant..
OK
If that is true, then why use the 3rd pick on a guy that is going to take a FEW yrs to develop? Wouldnt you want someone that could step in and help you NOW? Nobody projected Jackson to go that high in the draft. His name was not even mentioned in Chiefs mock drafts until the day before the draft. He came out of nowhere….Im not saying he is a bust, Im just saying we had a lot better options with the 3rd pick than him
I guess you have to assume
that they thought he would be able to help immediately.
It just turns out that it might take a little longer.
They really have no choice – the money invested demands a few more years at least.
As with any draft, it’s too early to tell. We can give them a poor score in the “contributing early” category (except Succup of course).
At least we didn’t spend a 5th round pick on a left footed kicker that we cut after the first game this year. Right?
by Ochophosphate on Dec 21, 2009 11:44 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree
I doubt Haley and Pioli came to KC to “turn it around” in one year. I hope their plan is to build a long term contendor, not just a one season wonder. If you are looking at a player that will contribute a great deal over the longterm vs a player who will contribute a little, but will contribute that little immediatley, I hope you take the long term player. And to answer KCinAZ, THAT is why you take a player who may take a few years to develope. If Jackson progresses as much next year as Dorsey did this year, we will have two very solid, young DEs that will play together for the next 4 years at a minimum.
I can see why people would rather have Percy Harvin (who would have no doubt contributed immediatly to the return game and WR position) or Orakpo (who’s 11 sacks look very appetizing for a piss poor defense like the Chiefs) but saying jackson was a “reach” because he was not projected in a mock draft to go that high, or because his numbers are right on par for a rookie 3-4 DE just doesn’t make sense.
2009 top 10 picks that Pioli had a shot at
1) Matt Stafford – not gonna happen with Cassel
2) Jason Smith – injured almost the whole season
4) Aaron Curry – Everyone’s favorite argument for Pioli being a bonehead. I personally believe he will be a beast in the NFL, but as of now his 61 tackles, and 2 sacks is not necessarily setting the league on fire. In comparison, Demorio Williams has over 100 tackles.
5) Mark Sanchez – Again, no QB being picked with Cassel, and if you think Cassel has thrown some picks lately then check out Sanchez
6) Andre Smith – Had well-documented off the field issues during the draft. Also injured the majority of the season and has been virtually invisible for the Bengals
7) Darrius Heyward -Bay – not even worth commenting on
8) Eugene Monroe – also missed a few games, but reportedly has been inconsistent at best
9) B.J. Raji -The only other defensive lineman taken in the top 10. His 21 tackes and 1 sack look oftly familiar to someone else (Tyson Jackson)
10) Michael Crabtree – we all know his story. A contract nightmare who never ran a 40 at the combine and was injured at the time of the draft. He may be a legtimate receiver but there were definetly concerns at the time.
So all of these “can’t miss” prospects that Pioli passed up to “reach” for Tyson Jackson would have contributed oh so much more than Jackson has at this point in the season. It looks to me that Pioli could have taken any of the aforementioned players and his pick would have been labeled a “disaster”. At least Jackson has been on the field the majority of the season which is more than you can say for half of those top 10 picks
by Fourstrike89 on Dec 21, 2009 8:59 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Rec
and rec and rec
1st round Tyson answered and Tyson has played Sunday after Sunday after Sunday
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 9:38 PM CST up reply actions
That's not really what I meant
My implication was that it is reasonable to expect a player near the top of the 1st round to be able to help the team from the start. As we all know, that doesn’t always work out. Some of these players take time to develop, some of them never do.
I really don’t mind the pick – I wish we didn’t have to give a #3 for him, but oh well. I believe we will have to wait to see with this.
by Ochophosphate on Dec 21, 2009 9:51 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, my bad :)
I started replying to you, then kinda went on a tangent related to the whole post. And I dont think it is unreasonable to expect a top 5 pick to help the team from the start. However, I think most people would agree that DL, OL, WR, and LB were some of the teams most pressing needs last year (not necessarily in that order). The two DL taken have almost identical stats. None of the OTs have proven to be elite LTs, let alone better than our current LT Brandon Alberts. Curry was the only LB prospect worthy of a top 5, and I already qouted his stats. Finally, the only WR that could arguably have been taken without fans screaming bloody hell was Crabtree (I personally love Maclin but am biased being a huge Mizzou fan). Again, we already know Crabtree’s story, and Maclin hasn’t been anything to brag about either this season. So while it is probably not unrealistic to expect an immediate contributor, I fail to see that “immediate contributor” that Pioli could have taken over Jackson. With that in mind, I am more than pleased that we picked up a potential monster of a 3-4 DE, even if it takes time for him to develop.
Now if Jackson is a flop in 3 years, and any of those other players are successful, I will be the first to acknowlege that Pioli sucked it up on this draft and missed on a plethora of players. But to say a draft is disasterous, because a rookie 3-4 DE is playing like a rookie 3-4 DE is a little over the top
by Fourstrike89 on Dec 21, 2009 10:14 PM CST up reply actions
The three players I had us taking in MOCKS before the draft were.
1 Crabtree – Even with all the ? He was the best College WR possibly ever. Dude shows up in EVERY game he has EVER played.
2 BJ, Raji – Yea his stats are about egual to Jacksons, but he does not start in GB and if he did his stats would blow Jacksons away. He also plays NT witch is the MOST important position in the 3/4 was VERY surprised that Pioli went D-Line and did not take Raji.
3 Orakpo – Was supposidly who Herm was targeting and with his stats this year would of been a great option as Orakpo > Vrabel.
So Jackson might or might not turn out to be a really good player, no matter what happens there I without a doubt would of been much happier with any of those three players than Jackson.
Yes, yes.
I wouldn’t’ve taken Crabtree, for the ? but your reasoning is good. I feel the same way about dominant WRs, and he looked like the real deal in his first appearance, without the benefit of training camp. Orakpo would have been just the thing for the 4-3.
I was surprised they went T-Jax before nailing down the nose with Ron Brace, but if Jackson was a reach, Ron Brace would’ve been a Mr. Gadget reach.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
I agree
But as ChiefDJ has pointed out repeatedly in this post, he thinks the draft is a disaster because none of the players have contributed “this year”. While many of those other top 10 picks, especially Crabtree and Raji, may turn out to be amazing players, they would all be labeled as “disasters” given the criteria used for this post.
by Fourstrike89 on Dec 26, 2009 8:34 PM CST up reply actions
They had the info they needed though its not like the former staff just took all their notes
with them without sharing. Its also not like our last two previous drafts were bad, we got atleast 3 good players every draft with Herm, and carl. Their nots SHOULD of been used.
Too early to judge
I questioned all of the Day Two picks at the time though.
we will see what he does this year
now that he really knows the team and has an entire offseason to work his magic. If we have another shitty draft i’m going to be pissed. Even a blaind man couldn’’t miss in the first 2 rounds of this year’s draft.
Good thing Al Davis isn't blind
cause he’s gonna miss in the first 2 rounds of this year’s draft.
by Ochophosphate on Dec 21, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
From the "Three Years Too Early To Write" file....
:)
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
I'm sure someone will do a write up about these picks in 3 years
I didn’t call anyone a bust. Just saying that aside from Succop, not a single one of these players have upgraded a position in 2009, which when you are picking 3rd overall you would expect to have that happen a time or two.
It is also questionable whether even half of these guys will be on the team next year.
Agreed...Horrible, Horrible Draft So Far
Jackson might turn it around, and maybe Magee. But I don’t see any of these other guys doing anything particularly special. Brown gets some love around here because he’s a local boy from Mizzou, but frankly he smells more another Barry Richardson than anything else…just more injury-prone. Washington looks for all the world like a horrible draft pick…nothing great at Ohio State, can’t even get on the field as a pro. Waste of a 4th rounder. Succop’s the only one who’s upgraded his position.
So basically we’ve got a “maybe good” player with the #3 pick, a “maybe so-so” player with the 3rd rounder, a kicker with the last pick, and a bunch of wastes. Not much to point to Pioli being the brains behind the New England dynasty.
As for whether Pioli or Haley are responsible for the failures, no reason it can’t be both.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
by UCrawford on Dec 20, 2009 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 20, 2009 8:45 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with DThomasReigns
that it definately seemed like Pioli was going off what he knew from his time with the Patriots. Its almost as though he completely ignored the scouts that were feeding him info.
I hate to say it, but I agree with what Whitlock wrote in his column today:
This is my problem. The mind-set when Pioli and Haley took over wasn’t about acquiring playmakers. It was about the process of creating a "culture of winning." Translation: Pioli and Haley thought they could win games from the sidelines and the GM’s office.
Players win games. And players put butts in the stadium. That’s the lesson that I pray registers with Pioli and Haley today.
I thik there is a lot of truth to that and the way they came into town. I think Haley has taken a huge shot to his ego and hopefully learned that its not just about “his guys”. The question is has Pioli?
Good points DJ
I think Pioli will be way more prepared for the offseason now that he has a full year under him. Don’t underestimate the Don.
I think a lot of that bullshit was from arriving at 1 Arrowhead and seeing the country club atmosphere.
There’s no pretty way to clean up such a mess. Those in the middle of it don’t even know it’s a mess. And there’s no nice way to tell them to change their ways.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Citing Whitlock in an arguement on AP isn't going to win me over
is the wind out of the Hate Chiefs Direction today? ummm
Sticks finger
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 9:44 PM CST up reply actions
Just because it was written by Whitlock doesn't make it automatically invalid.
Also, DJ only wrote that he agreed with that particular comment, he wasn’t citing as substantiation.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 21, 2009 11:27 PM CST up reply actions
And frankly, that comment has nothing to do with what Truth or I wrote.
I am actually rather annoyed by what you intimated, while ignoring what was written.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 21, 2009 11:33 PM CST up reply actions
This reply was supposed to be posted below, but somehow was placed here.
Please ignore.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 21, 2009 11:42 PM CST up reply actions
Oh yeah sure ;)
lol
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I super swear! :)
I posted it where the correct one is now, and the “posting” message button froze for 5 minutes.
I finally went to home and back, and suddenly it was in this spot.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 21, 2009 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
Yep I havn't even read Whitlocks articles since I found AP.
Thank you to everyone for that! Merry Christmas!!!!
I'm going to call it
I said we had to have 6 wins this season to call it an improvement over last year & now am confident that this team has not improved either through the draft or through coaching.
1) These guys were high draft picks & should have performed as such at least in regards to marked improvement throughout the season -FAIL. I didn’t expect Pro-Bowl type players,but I did expect more consistency & smarter individual performances,regardless of the final score.
2) Coaching -I expected that the coaching staff would make these first rounders “better”. Specifically,fixing technique issues. Not by leaps and bounds mind you,since Pioli & Haley have stated on numerous occassions that the intent is to get better week to week by working and adjusting these players so that they perform better. I don’t believe in the adage that the “scheme” is entirely to blame. Basically, they have been playing at the same level as the beginning of the season. -EPIC FAIL
3) Attitude -Poor on both sides. Coming into training camp overweight.Coaches such as Krumrie (insert WTF is his major malfunction numb-nuts? here) as well as the obvious ineptitude in making the same coaching mistakes OVER & over again. How many poor time-out calls? How many 4th down calls instead of going for the points? How many sideline screaming matches?
You would expect the veterans to have a positive attitude regardless and lead. I don’t see it.They have nothing to contribute to the younger players in regards to showing them how to be better since you can’t justify the coaching mistakes and head scratching calls. Case in point,Vrabels middle finger salute…that HOF’er lost it & pretty much was a sign to the rest of the players that there isn’t anything positive to extract.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
Nice, Truth.
I agree with this also.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 20, 2009 9:30 PM CST up reply actions
We beat Oakland 1st game and Buffalo and Cleveland
on the field yet not on the scoreboard. This post is tough.
We wanted the gold and got the shaft. Please all remember next year when we squeak out a win against SF or Tennessee that we earned it this year in lessons learned.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 9:49 PM CST up reply actions
"...a kicker with the last pick..."
Who cares where he was taken? He’s good. At least it wasn’t a wasted 5th rounder for a failed kicker (Justin Medlock).
It's A Kicker
If the best player you get out of your draft is a kicker, you had a shitty draft. And so far Succop’s been the best player out of this draft by a longshot.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Not Meant As A Bag On Succop
Who’s done a good job. But still…when the last pick in the draft is a bigger contributor than the #3 pick in the draft, and the #3 pick in the draft was considered by pretty much everyone to be a reach at the time, there’s a pretty good case that your GM really screwed up the draft.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
He is a college senior this year playing behind Flowers and Carr
You want to sit Flowers and Carr the way they have played in 2009.
Cassel and Vrabel 2nd round no arguements there for me.
Magee was Dorsey insurance and Washington is sitting behind 2 good CB’s next please :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 9:42 PM CST up reply actions
To be fair
During the draft, almost every single one of those draft picks was met with the reaction:
“WTF?!” or the asinine “In Pioli We Trust”
And they have thus far met that expectation. Seriously, if you go look at the draft threads, the reactions were pretty consistent.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 20, 2009 8:37 PM CST up reply actions
Yes, you relentless tyrant.
:)
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 20, 2009 9:31 PM CST up reply actions
The picks were based off of the scouts that were already here
One could at least pass a little blame their way.
and Pioli was already scouting for the Pats all last season.
It isn’t as though he was in the dark.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 20, 2009 8:38 PM CST up reply actions
That pick was all Pioli.
In fact, if you look at Piloi’s draft it fits the needs of the Pats far more than the Chiefs.
*Seymour and Warren nearing the end of their contracts, you can keep one but have to trade/lose to FA the other…Pioli’s first pick = Tyson Jackson
*His next pick = Another 3-4 DE
*4th Round = CB. A known need for the Pats
*5th Round = Near afterthought OL. The Pats line wasn’t great last year, but this is a pick that fits the level of need at OL for the Pats, yet OL was a massive need/must fill for the Chiefs since 2007
*Lawrence, Williams, O’Connell, and Succop also fill roles respective of their draft position for the Pats = Possible depth and hope for striking gold. At that point in the draft, none of them addressed needs of the Chiefs relative to their position.
This smacks of Pioli drafting what he scouted to fit the Pats last season and not what fit the needs of the Chiefs, especially considering the rounds the positions were drafted.
The draft made little sense at the time and even less sense now.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 20, 2009 8:57 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Totally agree
AS MANY needs as the Chiefs have Pioli should trade down this year if possible.There are a lot of holes to fill and the ships passengers (Arrowhead ticket holders) have left the poop deck.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
"My job is not to collect talent, but to build a team. Individuals make the Pro Bowl. Teams win championships. That is our goal."—Chiefs GM Scott Pioli.
I agree with that DTR
We should have grabbed a RB in the 1st and WR WR WR cause we knew they all sucked. The Sucktitude of the Chiefs last year was only matched by the Sucktitude the year before. The 2009 Chiefs Suck but not at those levels cause there was no hope then. Lets visit Cleveland who suck less but just hired Holmgren as President, NO GM, NO HC apparent, NO plan as of yet, but 3-11 just like us.
Who do you want to root for now?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
That isn't what I wrote at all, nor implied, Steve.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 21, 2009 11:24 PM CST up reply actions
Additionally, your comment has nothing to do with what Truth and I wrote and is wrongfully accusatory.
I am actually rather annoyed by what you intimated, while ignoring what was written.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 21, 2009 11:39 PM CST up reply actions
I apologize DTR and Truth and DJ
I just feel that this team is not as bad as it looks and all the negativity lately is really bugging me. I guess I was trying to compare Chiefs and Browns relative positions as of today. again Sorry all :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 22, 2009 8:04 AM CST up reply actions
I totally understand, Steve.
Sucking sucks and I badly want it to end too.
-Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
-"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Dec 22, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions
A hypothesis that fits most of the known facts.
We’ll see how the plan plays out for the Chiefs in years to come.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
But
isnt it true that d linemen in a 3-4 dont usually get stats they are supposed to take up the blockers and the lbs get all the stats
the NT
is the one who is supposed to “take up blockers” the ends SHOULD sttill be playing off their blocks and making plays, especially when BOTH ends ate first round picks.
"Ate" kind of works, too.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
i think d bowe did that this off season too...
ate a first rounder that is…that must have been where the extra weight came from.
by MountainManMike on Dec 22, 2009 12:00 AM CST up reply actions
That is true
And I said as much above.
However, considering the Chiefs have one of the worst run defenses in the NFL, you can’t exactly point to that as a counter to anyone saying he isn’t cutting it.
Yup
I got into an argument about this with someone here before and they made a good argument about it being unfair to judge 3-4 ends by the same standard as 4-3 ends. However, considering how the defense has given up 40 points or more in 3 of the last 4 games and they just gave up a franchise record in rushing to a horrible Cleveland team, I’d say there’s no argument that Jackson is doing well now by any DE standard.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
no shit
their own momentum gets used agaist them when they overpursue, and they end up right where the blockers want them
definitely unproductive in year 1
but it’s too soon to call it a disaster. maybe it’s just a question of semantics but calling it a disaster seems to be overstating it at this point
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
It was a disaster for year 1
Which is all we have to look at right now.
I took care not to call these players busts because they could still turn out to be good players.
But as far as improving the 2009 Chiefs, none but Succop did.
i would agree that no picks really improved the '09 chiefs
but i would also argue that this draft wasn’t really about improving the ’09 chiefs so much as setting us up for long term improvement. we shall see
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
+1
If you expected our top 2 picks, who play a position that its well known takes awhile to develop, to come in and make an instant impact then you had unrealistic expectations.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Dec 20, 2009 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
If that is the case
Why did we not see some of these young players on the field?
We may end up with a 3 win season and a lot of these young guys got very little playing time.
If it was about setting us up long term, why didn’t we see Washington playing in every game? Or why didn’t they stick with Lawrence or let Javarrris Williams get some carries? Why have we seen DaJuan Morgan sitting behind Jon McGraw? Why has Jake O’Connell and Brad Cottam been sitting behind Sean Ryan?
We might end up losing 13 games and didn’t get those guys any play experience. Thats only 1 game better than we won last year with Albert, Carr, Flowers and Dorsey who are all now starters and playing decently because of the experience they got as rookies on a bad team.
i have no answer for washington and that felt to me like a flier pick
but for jackson and magee they have gotten good playing time and those are the two picks i was specifically referring to. most guys from the 5th round plus aren’t major contributors and several don’t make it more than a season or two so i don’t really have much issue with not playing o’connell or williams or even lawrence. i never said it was a throw away year but i believe these guys were taken knowing they wouldn’t be super productive this year but their belief is next year and beyond they will be significant contributors.
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Washington was a 4th rounder with fairly elite measurables and some ballhawking intangibles.
I’m disappointed in him, so far, but he still looked like good value at the time, although I was one of few who had ANY interest in DBs in the last draft.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
thats what ive been saying
why didnt we have the younger receivers in there all year and get some experience to see if they can develope, I doubt they would drop any more passes then these so called veterans we keep picking up
I think part of it is trying to install a system.
You do x and y in practice and you get the playing time.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Just because they dont make an instant impact does not mean the draft is a disaster.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Dec 20, 2009 9:15 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, ChiefDJ, but you're talkin' outta both sides of your mouth, with that phony distinction.
You use “Disaster” to hype it and then say “I’m not sayin’ they’re busts.” Yes, you are. If you aren’t, then you shouldn’t use the word “disaster” to describe it. Can’t have it both ways.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
You are mistaken
None of these players save Succop improved the Kansas City Chiefs in 2009.
With some players it can take some time to see what they will eventually grow into. However, it is not unreasonable to expect that some of these players would have had an impact right away where you could at least see why they were chosen where they were. We haven’t seen that.
I am critical of Haley and Pioli because they both have performed poorly in their first year on the job. I think it is safe to say their first year as GM and Head Coach has been “a Disaster”. That doesn’t mean I don’t think there is the possibility that they could improve. I’m not and have not called for either one to be fired.
However I think there is definate cause for concern, and that is how I feel about all these draft picks.
Its not a black and white world hmills. Its not either / or. And just because someone is critical does not mean they go to the extreme. There is a lot of grey area between “great player” and “bust”.
Go ahead and split hairs, if you want.
I’m tellin’ you how the words you used are perceived by the majority of rational people reading them. There is a fundamental disconnect between the initial claims and the subsequent back-pedaling.
Things aren’t black-and-white, which is why I find myself disagreeing so often with these kinds of posts!
But I think I understand what you’re trying to say. And I see your point.
But talking to you about what “disaster” means is like debating with Bill Clinton on the meaning of the word “is.” Please look up the word.
If their 1st season were disastrous, they SHOULD be fired. Fact is, they’ve starting building something that may or may not contend in years to come. When you use words like “Disastrous,” they MEAN something to your readers!
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
If you do not consider this year to have been a "disaster"
Then I think maybe you are the one that needs to look up the word.
Everything that has happened this year from the draft to free agency to the fact our GM seems ridiculously unwilling to go beyond Miami or New England for players to the new coach that is supposedly this big time hardass and receiving genius with players that have no discipline and keep droppping the ball.
This year has absolutely been a disaster and despite the charity of an extra win this season, this team is MUCH worse than last years. Yes, this is a disaster.
However, just as the book on Tyson Jackson and the other draft picks this year is still open, the book on Pioli and Haley is still open. Yes, all of them have been horrendous up to this point. But there is still hope that they will have learned from those lessons and come out better in the years to come.
You seem to want to pigeon hole me as either for or against, but that is not going to happen. I think Haley has done a horrendous job as a head coach this year, but I’m willing to let him come back next year and prove that he has grown. Same goes for Pioli, same goes for all the draft picks.
But just because I’m not ready to see them fired after one year does not mean I should be rah rahing and offering my support for a group that makes Herm Edwards look like a genius.
Then I think you should change the title of your post
If you think the season as a whole (and I’m inclined to agree) is disasterous, then post something about the whole season being a disaster. But the title proclaims that Pioli is a disaster at drafting which simply can not seriously be debated at this point. I would even take a title that said something like “So far, Pioli’s 2009 draft picks haven’t done squat”. That statement is both accurate and critical of Pioli. But your current title is obviously biased with your feelings toward Pioli’s job as a GM on the whole season, which translates into Pioli draft bashing instead of Pioli GM bashing.
by Fourstrike89 on Dec 21, 2009 9:04 PM CST up reply actions
The title is: Pioli's first draft a disaster
Because that is the evidence I was presenting. The players Pioli picked this year have done almost nothing to improve the team THIS YEAR.
Yes, I have other things I think have been mismanaged as well, but that is not what this post was about.
So I thank you for your input on how to title a post, but I think the one I picked accurately represented the post.
but most of your comments on this thread
have been about Pioli and Haley having a disasterous season. And you think his draft was a disaster because
1) the top two picks play a position that is well known to take more than one year to develope
2) he traded his second round pick for a pro bowl linebacker and a starting QB
3) only ONE of his 7th round picks is starting and succeeding at a postion that has been in flux/miserable ever since Larry Tynes took the job
Didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers on the comment about your title, however I think it is misleading. Saying his draft was a disaster at this point is kind of like me saying my first 3-mile run of my weight loss program was a disaster because I didn’t immediatley lose 5 pounds. My workout program may suck, but I cant say that at this point based on a short amount of time.
Finally, I asked in another comment: what group of rookies are providing an immediate infusion of talent into their respective teams. Yes, there are a few individual rookies that are having a great season (harvin, cushing, orakpo), but Orakpo is not a 3-4 DE, and the others would seriously have been reaches considering where the Chiefs were picking. And those are rookies that are singled out. Name one team, good or bad, that has had this “influx of talent” that has made there team so much better this year. If there is one, I gaurantee that it is the exception and not the rule. This doesn’t mean that the other 30 NFL teams had a “disasterous” draft
by Fourstrike89 on Dec 26, 2009 8:31 PM CST up reply actions
I know it sounds hypercritical, but English is the only language we have to work with...
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
bust... esp jackson
i would argue that no matter how the chiefs drafted… positional value or best player… the third player taken in the draft should have some impact… some how, some way the talent would provide proof that a player should be taken that high… even if you argue that DLs take more time to fit in, jackson has shown none of the first round talent he is supposed to have… every tackle he has gotten is clean up… he is no where around the ball… even when plays are run towards him… he is clearly not a top 10 talent, much less a 1st rounder… and this is all while curry has a solid rookie season and is showing his 1st round potential…
draft eric berry and darryll stuckey.... and our defense problems are next to solved...
this sounds like what people said about neil smith after his rookie year
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
i think im going to try out for our defense next year
i mean i can run around out there not knowing what the hell im suppose to be doing or where im suppose to be and i can sure as hell miss tackles all day long. AND I will do it for half of what these ass clowns are making
Or
You will get released like Pollard did!
Things of importance to me:
1)God
2)Family
3)Chiefs
4)Marine Corps
If you look at Pioli's history at NE
Only 1-4 draft picks were actually “hits” so, I would consider Cassel/Vrabel and Succup to be in line with successful draft. Tyson is not going to have stats, they want him taking up blockers, so you can’t judge him by that. I don’t think this has been a bad draft at all.
"The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."
When you are drafting for one of the top teams in the NFL you can afford to only hit on 1 guy
But with the 3rd worst team in the NFL, you HAVE to get better production from your drafts if you’re ever going to get out of the hole. If nothing else some of your draft picks should be getting on the field simply because the talent already on the team is so bad.
It wasn't one of the top teams when Belichick and Pioli arrived.
He sucked in the draft, working for that SB team he helped build. The statement is an oxymoron.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
working for that SB team he helped build. The statement is an oxymoron
You said it, not me.
And its not as though the Patriots were in the state the Chiefs are when Pioil and Bellichick arrived. They had Parcells and Pete Carol there before.
I’m pretty sure 2 years of Pioli making personnel moves wasn’t the sole missing ingredient to making that team a Super Bowl winner.
I also think you completely misunderstood my statment. I said you can afford to only hit on 1 guy in the draft when you have one of the best teams in the NFL. Meaning that if you already have good players on the team, you are less likely to find better players in the draft that would upgrade them.
That is clearly not true when you are taking over a 2 win team. You should be able to find players that are a clear upgrade to the lack of talent already on the team, which we haven’t seen happen.
DJ Is Correct
The 2008 team was abysmal, and yet Pioli the supposed drafting guru basically got a DE with the #3 pick who wasn’t an impact player, a DE with the 3rd rounder who doesn’t see the field all that much, a kicker and a bunch of guys who couldn’t even see the field this year.
Is it premature to render a final grade on this draft? Absolutely. But for year one this draft was a disaster.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
You want 1st-year impact.
I want perennial playoff contention. Far too soon to say we’re not on the path to contention.
You can’t’ say the 2008 team was abysmal and in the same breath complain because you weren’t instantly gratified by the moves that were made in the wake of that season (and the ones before it).
I think ChiefDJ and you just like throwing around the word “disaster,” construing it to mean whatever you want it to mean, to suit your purposes.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Agreed
you can grab guys to make your stat look good but when you need a foundation you need sloggers that won’t get stats until the stars are around them. Jackson will star when the NT and the OLB and the ILB’s look like stars.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 10:06 PM CST up reply actions
He may never star in the sense of gaudy stats.
It’s when the LB stats start going up and the S stats start going down, and we stop seeing passes defensed and just hear about how stingy our pass defense is. Those are the yardsticks by which Pioli and Jackson should be measured.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
"If nothing else some of your draft picks should be getting on the field simply because the talent already on the team is so bad."
Is it just me, or didn’t we try that route recently?
Yes, and we have a number of starters that came out of it that are playing very well
Instead of the route they have taken this year where the drafted players save Tyson Jackson and his enormous contract have had very little playing time and we won a whopping 3 games.
Well it's unproductive in year one yes. But is it too soon to call it a bust?
Probably. However, you can’t expect anything from a group of players with no NFL experience coming to a team like this. I still don’t know why we took a rookie HC to try and turn a team with this kind of trouble around?
Your absolutely right DJ. No one can argue with your point because the facts back you up. But I think it goes deeper. We keep putting these guys in a position to lose, not win. We wait until 3rd and long with the game on the line and THEN go back to Charles? You saw that today. At the end of the game no less. What the hell?
Our defense is atrocious. Disgraceful. But by the same token, they don’t have any say so about who they play with on the team. Pioli and Haley do that. Their coached by Pendergast, so that’s a huge negative. They have very little to no veteran help. It’s stupid.
We passed on every single defensive player that was available and took everyone’s throw aways. We cannot do that next year. And next year, Pioli and Haley can’t hide anymore. If they don’t do something drastic here, I say we petition for their release, because this is unacceptable. We lost at home, to the BROWNS for God sakes!!
I'm not sure if I'll ever come around on Jackson
I’ve been shaking my head on that pick since the day it was rumored, before the draft even happened. Blech.
by burntorangehorn on Dec 20, 2009 9:42 PM CST reply actions
Draft
I completely agree with you on Cottam. In preseason, they were seriously thinking about cutting him, & were really enamored of O’Connell. Cottam seems to be the most complete player among the TE we have. This year, Peoli had better forget about that stupid value chart everyone refers to when contemplating a pick-for-pick trade. That chart is purely hypothetical. If the opporetunity to trade down presents itself, Peoli had better jump on it. We need to upgrade so may positions.
Pioli supposedly did disregard the draft value chart
Supposedly he offered Detroit the #3 overall pick for their late 1st rounder (from Dallas, I think) along with another pick later in the draft and they turned it down. Unfortunately those top picks are toxic with the salaries demanded.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
We'll see
Jackson is in his adjustment period. His numbers are pretty disappointing (and concerning) even by rookie standards, but he had good size for a 3-4 DE and seems to be a hard worker. I doubt he’ll ever be regarded as an elite DE, but I think he’ll be solid. I think he was a fair pick in a weak draft class.
Cassel was the 2nd round pick, and I think he was a great deal there.
Magee, I think is similar to Jackson. I think he’ll continue to be a solid backup, and could eventually work his way into the starting linup with his better pass-rush abilities. He has a good sized frame for a DE.
Washington – I think he is a talented athletic guy with a lot of upside, but is a high bust risk. You can never have too much depth at CB, so I don’t think it was a bad move to bring him in and let him develop over a couple years. It’s actually ideal to bring rookies in this way. If he can live up to his athleticisim he could eventually supplant Carr, but I’m not counting on it.
Colin Brown – Another guy with upside based on his size & relative quickness. Another later round pick with future upside potential.
The rest are just developmental guys who (as expected) will be replaced with next year’s picks if they don’t show something soon. Other than Succop of course.
It’s funny, it seems that a lot of people here discount Succop’s impact when they grade the draft. I wonder if they would feel better about the draft if he had been taken in the 4th or 5th round?
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
by jmcgoblue on Dec 20, 2009 10:37 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
It's not as if they plugged Jackson into a defense whose only missing piece was LDE.
It’s not as if DE in the 3-4 is a very sexy position. Give it time.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Oh, I am giving him time
I never thought he was a bad pick, considering that it was a very weak draft class. Certainly was a smarter choice than Aaron Curry would have been at 3 (look at how many ILBs taken later than Curry have outperformed him this season).
I fully expect Jackson to be a solid DE for the next 10 years.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
I see what you're getting at, but.....
1) “By this point in the 2008 season, Glenn Dorsey was being spoken of as a huge bust. By week 15, Dorsey had 38 tackles, 28 assists, and 1 sack” Yeah, but Dorsey was playing DT in the 4-3 defense. So of course his numbers are going to be higher than a 3-4 DE like Magee or Jackson. And it’s a little ironic that you are pointing out how he was labeled a bust at this point last year (kinda like you are implying Jackson is a bust as of now), when he proved almost all doubters wrong this year by making dramatic strides in his overall play even though he switched to a new position. Either way, comparing Dorsey’s stats last year to Jackson’s this year in an attempt to prove how bad Jackson is just doesn’t seem quite legitimate. I have read your other comments where you say you are not labeling them a bust, but that’s sure what it reads like.
2) Along the same lines as point number 1, it has been discussed ad nauseum that defensive lineman take years to develope. Therefore, I think this post is about 2-3 years too early. It is simply too early to tell if those top 2 picks were a bust or not. As far as the later rounds go, it is all a crap shoot. I think if we look back in 3 years and find that Jackson, Magee, and Succop are all solid contributors, and we factor in the Cassel trade, this draft will be far from a “disaster”.
3) Name one NFL team, good or bad, that has seen significant contribution from (meaning more than two starters in my opinion, Jackson and Succop for us) the 2009 rookie class.
THANK you, Fourstrike89.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
2nd
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
Well yes and no guys
Yes. I think it’s far too early to make the call now. T-Jax has the potential to be damn good. Just like Dorsey. Succop has been an impact player and that’s great but let’s face it, the kicker has been the only impact player to come out of that draft in the first year. Long-term we may see some interesting results from the draftees but this year just plain stunk. There’s a way to draft players that make an immediate impact. I think in this upcoming draft, Pioli needs to concentrate on that. I think he seriously underestimated the sheer magnitude of SUCK this team possessed and in drafting developmental players he really caused some major problems. We need guys that can come in day one and make the team better. We clearly didn’t get that this year. To that end I agree with DJ. At the same time I’m not ready to call anyone from this years draft a bust.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I will call O'Connell and Lawrence draft fodder
Maybe we should have grabbed better prospects. yet all around 6-7 rounds fail.
At least neither was a pothead and blew his shot at the bigtime. Cottam should get the reps. Quinten has his head on straight and wants to keep it that way, can’t blame him for that:) Might pay better than Footbll in the long run. Agree we need Starters in this draft not projects. Scope of project
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 10:53 PM CST up reply actions
If I could suggest to DJ one small point
It’s not so much that Pioli’s draft was a disaster, it’s more that the Chiefs in general are a disaster. Sad… but true.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
I dont understand
it hasnt even been a full season yet and people are calling this years draft a bust. What did you people expect that we would draft 5-6 guys, they would all become pro bowl players overnight and that we would be a superbowl contender in one year. I’ll agree I wasnt the happiest when we drafted another d lineman in the first round but you build from the inside out, plus last years draft class was not very strong. For you people calling this years draft a bust can you please tell me who you think we should have drafted because how many of them are making an “impact” with the teams they are on.
Last years draft class wasn't strong?
So those 4 starters we have from last year (5 now with Charles) that wasn’t a strong draft class?
And you say I have high standards!
Again, I’m not saying these guys are busts (yet), but they haven’t helped our team.
What?
what 4 starters? and Charles wasnt in last years draft. I’m saying this past years draft class wasnt very strong so for people calling this draft a bust I would like to know who we should have drafted cuz I cant think of anyone that is making an impact with their team
by badassz1987 on Dec 20, 2009 11:10 PM CST up reply actions
Carr, Flowers, Dorsey, Charles.
Charles was the #8 pick in round 3, I believe.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
They all started.
But on a team with a 2-14 record, it’s hard to say that ANYbody was making a whole lot of impact. ;o)
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Correction, Charles didn't start.
And they had to run LJ outta town for him to start as a sophomore.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Thats because of piss poor player mangment, not because he didn't have the talent.
You are sitting there kissing Haley and Pioli’s butts and throwing our players under the bus. Flowers and Carr are in the top 10 in CB duos in the NFL. Albert and Dorsey are both starters and both playing well.
Then you try to make it sound like Charles isn’t that good a player and only saw the field because LJ got kicked out. Well that has ZERO to do with Charles ability and everything to do with Haleys unwillingness to play him. Thats points against Haley, not Charles.
Who else is sitting on the bench that could have been contributing all year? Brad Cottam comes to mind.
Who said Charles isn't or wasn't good?
Who’s kissing anybody’s ass?
I think you’re speaking more from emotion than from reason, and it’s causing you to encounter some friction. You have to expect that, and I should’ve expected that reasoning with you would be a waste of time. My bad. :o)
I think my criticisms of Carr and Flowers are rational and reasoned. And what have I really said? Main thing I remember saying is that I don’t consider Flowers to be a top 5 CB in the league, when someone went too far in praise of him.
Top 10 CB duos might not be a stretch. Especially when you have slow safeties to blame when our cover-2 selected and trained corners are beaten over the top and their deep help didn’t help them.
You’re comin’ across bi-polar. You’re upset with me because I’m not hating on Pioli’s “disastrous” 1st year, and I’m questioning whether or not certain players you like very much can walk on water.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Listen, lets not start with the insults
You said the guys we are talking about are only starting because they are on a 2-14 team, insinuating they would not be good enough to start anywhere else. That’s why I say you are throwing these guys under the bus.
The facts are if they were on a team with better coaching they would likely be doing a whole lot better.
I don’t really care if you agree with my opinions of Pioli’s 1st year or not. Obviously not everyone does.
But as usual, when faced with a logical point that there is evidence of right now, people who are trying to put FAITH in the future take things to an extreme.
Like how I said we got 4 starters from last years draft and you say “I’m questioning whether or not certain players you like very much can walk on water”.
I’m not saying they are pro bowl players. But they are contributing a hell of a lot more to this team than any of Pioli’s picks are. But since you are in Defense mode, all you can do is attack them to defend your point.
No. Actually, I call 'em like I see 'em.
I’m always open to being corrected on the specifics, which I explicated in a calm, forthright, but perhaps falsely authoritative tone. With the written word, my declaratives come across like I’m certain of my claims.
The things you’re really disagreeing with is how I see the game, and size up players. I’m not counting the number of APers who agree with me before I tell you how I see the game. Your take on Flowers and Carr is different from mine. Fine. Tell me what you see. Rationally take me on, point by point, on the claims I’ve made about Flowers and Carr, rather than make a blanket attack on my intentions and character.
I’m totally open to people disagreeing with me on what my eyes tell me. More eyes, more details, more real knowledge.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
Let's look at is as a whole off-season.
Remember, Clark Hunt preached his “slow and methodical approach” in finding a GM.
Bottom line, three things have to happen in order for last off-season to be considered a success:
1) Pioli is the right GM for the next decade or so.
2) Cassel is the right QB for the next 4 – 5 years minimally.
3) Haley is AT LEAST good-enough-for-now-to-turn-this-team-in-the-right-direction.
I think all of those statements are true.
As for Succop, hey at least we didn’t spend a 5th rounder on a failure of a field goal kicker (Justin Medlock).
And by the way, I don’t see Dorsey fairing any better than Jackson, even though it is Dorsey’s second year.
It’s just to soon to tell.
by Dove40 on Dec 20, 2009 11:12 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
yeah pretty bad draft picks imo
atleast last year w/ got 2 good corners that are still improving. and they showed up last year. Charles showed flashes last year, and is impressive this year. albert and dorsey are playing decent. could have gotten clady or Oher which would have been better for O-line. but it could be coaching that could be the root of the problem.
Proud Supporter of Tyler Thigpen.
I've been saying the same all year long ... horrid draft ... and not one OL in there is absurd
bordering on criminal … Mastermind Pioli had no clue what this team was about or needed, despite having all winter to look at film … then he gets rid of a #2 pick for a marginal QB and gives him no protection (and everyone in football knew last year the Chiefs OL was a disaster … everyone but Pioli, that is)
and of course sticking with Larry “Two Point Seven” Johnson … but hey, we have The Right 53! not the right 53 for a football team, but hey, who cares, right? and let’s allow the HC to dump one of the best OC’s in the business just before the season starts, so the team can be set back half a season, and while we’re at it let’s not hire a replacement, instead allowing the HC to REALLY screw things up royal
obviously not The Mastermind
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Well,seeing how the media sold these two as a pair of geniuses...
…I’m going to have to say teh biggest dissapointments are those two.I’;ve thought all along that Pioli essentially did what Bellechick told him to do,and Haley really never struck me as being the sharpest knife in the drawer,and I really think those opinions have been validated by the way everything that’s happened since their arrival.
Jared Allen's rookie year...
28 tackles, 2 assists…..9 sacks
We got him in the FOURTH round.
I say, give Jackson some time. He has stepped up the last few weeks but still needs to find a way to get to the QB. All we have is time Chiefs fans because we aren’t going to turn around in the next couple of years.
Hali, Johnson, Vrable, Mays, Williams, Studebaker, Belcher
-Come Get Some-
Here is what I know....
…When Carl Peterson was fired I was happy and the next thought was who would step in and captain the ship? Out of all the possible GMs we could have hired we got Pioli, not one of his assistants, the man. What more could I or anyone else have asked for? The man has a proven track record. We all know how we got here and it has sadly been painfull but there is hope. Hope in a young QB who comes out and fights like hell every week behind an offensive line that can’t seem to open any holes for the running backs but will let a linebacker run free. We have a veteran LB in Vrable who can only be helping our transition to the 3-4. A running back who is starting to emerge after he was given the full load because our almost-all-time-rushing-leader was sent packing for conduct that was distracting and destroying the team. Those are some examples of decisions Pioli made that have made this team better weather it shows in wins or not. It is cliche’ to say but Rome wasn’t built in a day and I’ll bet the guys building Rome had alot more to work with than the rubble that was left by the previous men in charge. Okay, so this draft wasn’t the Roman colosseum but maybe over time it will prove to be the foundation on which it is built.
Leave the gun. Take the cannoli.
Agree...
I think it was a bad first draft. But… now that he has a year of scouting with his guys, maybe we will see a better result. This off season could be more then huge for KC with all the money they have to spend on FA and the draft.
That is my hope as well
I’m hard on Haley and Pioli because they both deserve it. I don’t care what their backgrounds are, they have FUBARd this season up royal.
I think they both came in extremely arrogant and thought THEY were going to be the keys to turning this team around on their will alone.
My hope is they have both been humbled by this year and will get to work and get on the right track next year.
I am sure they have been humbled at least Haley
Pioli probably knew this was a project, and with Chiefs Fans and solid effort, not a impossible project. Else he would have said no. We saw the 1st season. Ugly yet at points solid. Most years you don’t have to play possibly 2 playoff teams in your own Division. Denver looks iffy now and Oakland is winning games no one expected. The NFC East and the AFC North, those are some smack you in the face Teams. We will be better and draft better and coach better and play better. I am a Chiefs fan and a realist:)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 21, 2009 10:21 PM CST up reply actions
About the scouting...
I think, if anything, Pioli enjoyed the services of TWO scouting departments. I’m sure that he was working right along in fall ‘08, with New England’s staff. Probably had a work-in-progress big board already in hand, when he left there, and then threw KC Scouting Dept’s data on top, or off to the side, or in the trash bin.
Interesting juxtaposition of New England’s needs and Pioli’s picks. I kind of doubt it was that simple, but a nice circumstantial case presented by the prosecution.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
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