Should We Go Back To The 4-3
by royalsfan99 on Dec 2, 2009 1:33 PM CST
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Should we go back to the 4-3 defense? This is interesting because you could move Dorsey and Jackson back inside.
Then you move Tamba back too his old position at defensive end, then you try and either put Andy Studebaker or Alex Magee opposite of Tamba. This is very unlikeable to many chiefs and unrealistic because Todd and Scott both have been on 3-4 teams and like it, but sometimes I get tired of people just running up the middle on us, and Tyson and Dorsey would be a beautiful tandem. Plus this draft class is loaded at 4-3 defensive ends like Greg Hardy, Willie Young, George Selvie, and Derrick Morgan. You have to admit this would be a pretty solid line and I didn't even mention the free agents with names like Arron Kampman who is not fitting into Green bays 3-4 defense. Kyle Vanden Bosh and even Julius Pepers is a free agent. Wouldn't are defensive line look beautiful with Tamba Hali and Peppers or Vanden Bosh lined and then Jackson and Dorsey, man I would be proud of our defense. And then you draft a guy like Taylor Mays in the first and then trade both of our 2nd round picks for New England and then draft Iupati to fill the void at Right Guard then draft a center between the 3rd and all the 5th round picks we have. This defense would be dominant with linebackers Vrabel,Johnson, maybe one of those Raider players Thomas Howard or Kirk Morrison. Let me here what you think about this and remember this is just something kind of a thing I would do.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Its sounds
good to us now, but i still like the idea of the 3-4 in the future. Tamba would have to put on the 20-30 pounds that he lost to play LB.
wouldnt be a terrible idea but will never happen
We gave up 154.9 on the ground last year.
We’re 134.9 now, with more sacks than we had all of last year, and more importantly, one more win already.
It’s the first year we’ve played it. Guys have started to make the adjustment, and we’re seeing Tamba, Dorsey, and Studebaker getting it. Don’t change it.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
I can see it evolving. I can even see going 4-3.
But not the way most seem to think. Consider Jackson, Edwards/Magee, Dorsey, Gilberry/Magee across the front, with Hali freer to line up in A or B gaps (showing inside blitz). Throw in the best LB remaining, be it Vrabel, Williams, Johnson, Mays, you make the call. And behind that BIG front 6, run the nickel. This would be a front 4 that resembles the best front 4’s of the Chiefs in the early 90s (they were HUGE – 300-lbers across the entire front), with Hali being the LB who can freelance, like #58 did.
Gets more stout up front than Chiefs currently have, and gets more speed behind it than the Chiefs currently have.
I’m a HUGE fan of the 4-3, but the traditional 4-3 asks for an awful lot of its ends, wanting them to be stout against the run AND make plays in space. It’s really tough to get both, and most teams that have success with it, their pro bowl DE is still a weak link against the run. Very few teams find the right front 4, and when they find it, they struggle (and pray) to keep it for 16 games plus playoffs.
I respect the views of others, here, but when it comes to building and maintaining a TEAM, those guys who put stars in your eyes are very rare, and what happens to your D when they sit? A system that lets the big men be big men, lets the LBs be thumpers, and has the best friggin’ hard-nosed tackling-and-covering DBs that can be found is more sustainable.
Those (truly great) defenses of the Chiefs ran the most devastating 4-2-5 I’ve ever seen, rivaled (exceeded, even) only by the 4-6 of da Bears, imo. Impossible to throw consistently against, and running was absolutely futile.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Dec 2, 2009 8:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
So You want a 4-6 and get a devastating 2-5 D
I hope we evolve to :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
It is not going to happen...
Hopefully this draft will give us a great pass rushing linebacker…approximately the time that TJ is getting good, hopefully…
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
agreed. Even just one off the charts dynamic pass rusher would change everything for us
It would make it soooo much easier for the other guys to get their job done.
More interested in adding a NT (like Siragusa or Ngata) to make life easy for ANY LB.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
i agree
just need to blitz once in a while!!
by kcstevesportsfan on Dec 2, 2009 7:18 PM CST up reply actions
I wonder about that
makes me think they are not sure they have the people to man up when they blitz.
Bewsaf
this is a dcoord issue
dan fouts was laughing that it was all a zone d on sunday…
we have very good corners…
one slow safety…
usually good speed at lb.
more blitzes …. even less time for the slow safety to cover!! lol
by kcstevesportsfan on Dec 2, 2009 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
in a word... NO
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
I can see Jackson having some real fun at DE with 3 other D-Linemen soaking up blockers.
And i think Jackson HAS lined up in the middle a number of times this season, on clear passing downs.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Okay...
let me rephrase that… Tyson Jackson has never been a full time DT.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Dec 2, 2009 9:27 PM CST up reply actions
No problem.
Somebody needed to speak up about moving Jackson “back inside” where he’s really never played (except in the aforementioned passing downs in Clancy’s funky 2-5-4/2-4-5. I was just trying to round out the discussion with the caveats, not take much away from your good point.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
nope...too late for that
he already have our foot out the door and trying to transition back would give us even headache. If we transitioned back to the 4-3 today we would be terrible because in the same way that we were missing some of the 3-4 components, we are now missing a lot of the 4-3 components. We might as well just stick to our guns and not waste the progress we have been able to make this year.
A man who says he can, and a man who says he can't are both right. Which one are you?
agreed
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
Clearly the next logical step is S_T_O_U_T in the middle. Get a NT. Reassess.
Rinse. Repeat.
As I said above, I can see a 4-3 alignment being utilized to advantage, but it doesn’t involve moving Jackson inside, nor does it entail putting ’tweeners in at either of the DE spot. Simply go big up front, and fast-as-you-can behind it, with nickel or even dime personnel.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Hopefully with a simple read and react cover scheme!
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
I've wondered the same thing but it's probably not realistic right now.
Can you imagine the step backwards poor Tyson would take trying to unlearn everything we’ve taught him thus far and started him all over again now? wow. That would not turn out good because it would set our 2 new guys back to square one.
YUP!
Which is an even bigger reason to stay in the 3-4. But then you have yourself an issue there….
We just drafted Tyson Jackson, who at 1st glance appears to be a bust, but I’m willing to give the guy some time. He’s not even close to being big enough to play NT. Therefore, he ain’t going anywhere. Tyson will be on this line next year for sure.
Ron Edwards is the best NT we got… The only way I see us getting better at that position is through a draft pick or Vince Wilfork (who’ll be a Free Agent this off-season) and you KNOW Pioli will be chasing Wilfork (+ He’s only 28).
Next we got Glenn Dorsey, who arguably has had the best season than anyone on this team (Tamba, Flowers, and Charles being the other candidates). And he’s also been a leader on defense… What the hell would we do if Pioli pursues and had the chance to obtain Julius Peppers??? Do you trade Dorsey? Do you ask him to gain 20-30 pounds and play NT in front of Ron Edwards? What to do….. (????)
I know that you're afraid... you're afraid of us. You're afraid of change. I don't know the future. I didn't come here to tell you how this is going to end. I came here to tell you how it's going to begin.
'09, a new era begins in Kansas City.
Peppers would be an OLB in a 3-4
so, he’d be a replacement for Vrabel, Studebaker or Hali
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
jinx
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
In a 3-4
Peppers is an OLB. His whole reason for wanting to play in a 3-4 is to play OLB. He is not big enough to play DE in a 3-4.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions
I am now leaning toward developing our own talent.
Wilfork didn’t look great in the part of the game I watched against NO. and Peppers etal
just want a big payday and maybe retire like some other FA Chiefs pickups.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Never said we should sign him
ROC asked what you do with him if you sign him.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:42 PM CST up reply actions
Heck no.
If Peppers or Suh came to KC, I’d move Dorsey back to DT and KC would have a tremendous front 4, whoever the 4th guy was, be it Edwards or Magee. And with the year at DE, Dorsey and Peppers could do a lot of mixing and matching.
The one thing that’s inconsistent with running the 3-4 at ALL is all the running Haley has his guys doing. I simply don’t want my 3-4 nose tackle putting all those miles on his knees. I’m not even sure I like it for Dorsey, Jackson, Magee. A house-sized NT would have a hard time being himself under Haley’s conditioning program as conceived in ’09.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
"remember this is just something kind of a thing I would do"
That statement is the best possible arguement no to do it.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:35 PM CST reply actions
I like it if we drafted Suh to team with Dorsey in the middle.
Jackson and Hali would be ends
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Suh goes top 3 anyway
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
Suh isnt a 3-4 NT or DE
I learned that the hardway.
Hate Larry Johnson.
Who said he was?
the scenario Steve put forward is we draft him to be a 4-3 DT. I stated that he’ll be gone when we draft anyway.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:47 PM CST up reply actions
I bet...
he could play NT. Look at Jay Ratliff in Dallas. He is tearing it up at 6’4", 300 lbs. And Suh is the prototype 3-4 defensive end, the next Seymour in my opinion.
Where?
Kiper has him as being a good NT in either the 3-4 or the 4-3. Granted Kiper isn’t always right, but I have heard nothing saying that he couldn’t play basically anything he was asked to do.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Dec 2, 2009 6:52 PM CST up reply actions
Besides
What if you do draft Suh. And then Suh or Dorsey get hurt in week 2. Do you switch back to a 3-4? Do you get rid of the coaches you brought in to run the 4-3 and bring in some with 3-4 expertise? And then what do you do when the guy gets healthy again? Fire the new guys, bring the old ones back and put in teh 4-3 again?
One guy doesn’t make the decision for what scheme you run. You call plays to fit your talent. But you draft to fit you scheme.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 5:46 PM CST up reply actions
Well if Favorite is no better than our current backup NT
and we pick up our former cut player. I wonder how concerned we are with the current ,and therefore, our future concern on the amount of money we will pay for a NT.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Did your head just explode?
I’m not saying we shouldn’t get a legit NT or that we aren’t willing to pay for one.
I’m saying you don’t change your scheme just because you draft a guy you think might work better in a different scheme.
You draft guys who fit your scheme.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
Well as a matter of fact my head has exploded
I just saw that Wilfork is not dominating against GREAT teams. We need a TEAM of good players to compete against them. New England is getting older and slower, just like we did in the early 70’s with the GD best talent ever assembled on a Defense. IMO
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
I got that impression, also, Steve.
Seemed like New Orleans had their way with him, quite often. I’d have to look at the game tape, again, but he didn’t look a whole lot better than Ron Edwards last Sunday, just on first impressions.
But if Suh fell to the Chiefs, which we all doubt, Dorsey to DT, Suh to RDE, and the Chiefs would have a front 4 to rival ’most any in the league.
As for coaching personnel who “understand the 3-4,” at the NFL level, if you can’t get it done with those 3 guys plus any one of Gilberry, Magee, Edwards, you don’t deserve to coach any scheme. This ain’t rocket science. As Alex Magee would say, “It’s football, man.”
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Why are we talking about Wilfork now?
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 9:08 PM CST up reply actions
Uh, Opportunity costs
Decisions made. Wilfork or if there Suh.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
I give up
not sure why any of this was a reply to me
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 9:20 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, Satch. As onlookers, assuming there's a system of team-building being put in place,
Suh seems like a high-dollar solution to one of the few problems the Chiefs do NOT have. :o)
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I'm not even saying we shouldn't get Suh
I’m just saying that they should only draft him if they think he’s a NT. If they draft him to go back to the 4-3, that’s counter productive.
This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.
by KCSatchmo on Dec 2, 2009 9:09 PM CST up reply actions
That was almost exactly what I was going to post...
If a Guy like Suh is available… he’s a game changer…. I think this would be our most productive front…
The fact that KC did NOT go after NT in the draft or very aggressively in FA HAS left the door open to 4-3.
Ron Edwards would be solid at 4-3 DT. Jackson would only get better with more stout sidin’ HIM, and Dorsey could EASILY play DT on the weak side, only now with an augmented skill set from his year spent at DE. This would allow the KC D to REALLY mix things up a LOT, with pretty much all things being easier for most of the crew than they were this season.
I’m not advocating, here. Just seeing how I might try to muddle through if somebody inflicted Suh on my defense.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
But parting ways with Tank Tyler seems to be a clear signal that 4-3 is in the rearview mirror for the Chiefs.
If they DID go 4-3, losing Tyler in ’09 would be a retrograde move.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Do you think Pioli is sorta leaving the door open on what we are next year.
Sorta like leaving the D-coordinator position open for as long as he did last year.
Haley, though he might have a preference, has left Clancy to call the game as he sees it.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Actually Clancy is known, right or wrong, as 4-3 hybrid.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
Why is this even a topic???
We currently run a base 3-4, with some 4-3 mixed in. We are not in the base defense half the time. Am I missing something here?
"The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."
Would beg the Question?
We could draft any D player being as we play any D at any given time. We could grab any FA cause we play any D when we want to. What players FIT our scheme is the question IMO.
AND what scheme fits our players?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 2, 2009 10:24 PM CST up reply actions
Clancy sucks
and that’s putting it nicely. Has nobody else noticed the 2-4 nickel package he likes to run? I’m serious. Two down linemen (usually Dorsey and Jackson lined up outisde the guards), our regular four linebackers, and five defensive backs. Even if he runs it with the intent of rushing all four linebackers, they’re lined up further from the line of scrimmage, thus taking more time to reach the QB. By the time they get to the QB, he has already released the ball from his 3-step drop. Oh, and he also likes man coverage in this formation, which leaves the middle of the field WIDE OPEN on crossing routes. Thank you Clancy!
I kinda like it when they just sorta mill around before the snap. Heh.
I agree that that 2-4-5 alignment leaves a lot to be desired. Middle is soft because they haven’t the talent/courage to JAM anybody.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
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