The Great Cornerback Debate

by Chiefsfan85 on Dec 17, 2009 7:40 AM CST

How important is a cornerback for a team? I think that if you have a good to great cornerback then your team is a lot stronger. Most people look at corners but only stop at one stat and that is interceptions. Is that all a cornerback should be responsible for? Sure, interceptions are great but not everything. What if your cornerback has 60 tackles but only 1 interception? Is that corner doing his job? What if he has 22 passes defended during that same stretch? What I'm saying is that you have to look at everything when it comes to a good secondary player. I think tackles are key to any player. If a player can't tackle that well then they should give up. I compared the top tackling corners on every team and both our starting corners just for kicks—Brandon Flowers and Brandon Carr. I compared solo tackles and if there is a tie then I broke that tie by assisted tackles. I also compared interceptions and passes defended. If there was a tie for interceptions I would take the guy with the most passes defended for the tie breaker. If there was a tie for passes defended the tiebreaker would go to the corner with the most interceptions. The player with the best stats would win the tiebreaker. I’ll highlight our two corners in the table. I also put the team the corners play for and how many of each stat they have.

Solo Tackles	Interceptions	Passes Defended
1. William Gay-Pitt 56	1. Charles Woodson-GB 8	1. Darrelle Revis-NYJ 27
2. Nick Harper-Tenn 56	2. Darrelle Revis-NYJ 6	2. J. Joseph-Cin 19
3. Charles Woodson-GB 56	3. J. Joseph-Cin 5	3. Chris Johnson-Oak 17
4. Bryant McFadden-Ari 56	4. Leigh Bodden-NE 5	4. Brandon Flowers-KC 16
5. Chris Johnson-Oak 55	5. Sheldon Brown-Phi 5	5. T. Newman-Dal 16
6. Jerraud Powers-Ind 55	6. Terrell Thomas-NYG 4	6. Leigh Bodden-NE 15
7. Terrell Thomas-NYG 52	7. DeAngelo Hall-Was 4	7. Bryant McFadden-Ari 15
8. Champ Bailey-Den 52	8. Chris Johnson-Oak 3	8. Charles Woodson-GB 14
9. Charles Tillman-Chi 52	9. Brandon Flowers-KC 3	9. Brandon Carr-KC 14
10. Ronde Barber-TB 52	10. R. Marshall-Car 3	10. Sheldon Brown-Phi 13
11. R. Marshall-Car 51	11. Derek Cox-Jac 3	11. Will Peterson-Det 12
12. Cedric Griffin-Min 51	12. Tracy Porter-NO 3	12. Josh Wilson-Sea 12
13. Derek Cox-Jac 49	13. Vontae Davis-Mia 3	13. Terrell Thomas-NYG11
14. T. Newman-Dal 47	14. Cedric Griffin-Min 3	14. R. Marshall-Car 11
15. Will Peterson-Det 46	15. T. Newman-Dal 2	15. Derek Cox-Jac 10
16. Brandon Flowers-KC 46	16. Will Peterson-Det 2	16. Eric Wright-Cle 10
17. Ronald Bartell-STL 46	17. Josh Wilson-Sea 2	17. Jerraud Powers-Ind 10
18. J. Joseph-Cin 44	18. Eric Wright-Cle 2	18. Champ Bailey-Den 10
19. Brandon Carr-KC 44	19. Quentin Jammer-SD 2	19. D. Foxworth-Bal 10
20. Leigh Bodden-NE 42	20. Brent Grimes-Atl 2	20. Glover Quin-Hou 9
21. S. Spencer-SF 42	21. Charles Tillman-Chi 2	21. Tracy Porter-NO 8
22. Glover Quin-Hou 41	22. Jerraud Powers-Ind 1	22. Vontae Davis-Mia 8
23. Eric Wright-Cle 41	23. Champ Bailey-Den 1	23. Quentin Jammer-SD 8
24. Reggie Corner-Buf 40	24. D. Foxworth-Bal 1	24. William Gay-Pitt 8
25. Brent Grimes-Atl 40	25. S. Spencer-SF 1	25. DeAngelo Hall-Was 7
26. Quentin Jammer-SD 39	26. Reggie Corner-Buf 1	26. Brent Grimes-Atl 7
27. Darrelle Revis-NYJ 39	27. Bryant McFadden-Ari 0	27. S. Spencer-SF 7
28. D. Foxworth-Bal 39	28. Brandon Carr-KC 0	28. Charles Tillman-Chi 6
29. Tracy Porter-NO 38	29. Glover Quin-Hou 0	29. Ronde Barber-TB 6
30. Sheldon Brown-Phi 36	30. William Gay-Pitt 0	30. Reggie Corner-Buf 5
31. Josh Wilson-Sea 36	31. Ronde Barber-TB 0	31. Ronald Bartell-STL 5
32. DeAngelo Hall-Was 32	32. Ronald Bartell-STL 0	32. Cedric Griffin-Min 4
33. Vontae Davis-Mia 32	33. Nick Harper-Tenn 0	33. Nick Harper-Tenn 4

Out of 33 corners in the NFL Brandon Flowers ranks 5th overall and Brandon Carr ranks 17th overall when I averaged everything together. These aren’t bad numbers for our young corners. So right there is a positive thing for our team. Ranked number 1 overall is Charles Woodson. Ranked last is a tie between Reggie Corner and Ronald Bartell. Things I found interesting was that Nick Harper was ranked 2 in tackles but dead last in interceptions and passes defended. Does that make him a bad corner? William Gay was ranked 1st in tackles but low in interceptions and passes defended. Darrelle Revis ranked 2nd and 1st in interceptions and passes defended but at the bottom of the list in tackles. Does that make him a bad corner? There is really no wrong way to answer these questions. All I know is that we have 2 of the best corners in the league and they are only getting better. Go Chiefs!

Poll

What is more important?

Tackles

2 votes

Interceptions

5 votes

Passes Defended

38 votes

A Nice Healthy Mix

71 votes

116 votes | Poll has closed

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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Comments

I think stats can be skewed

This guy is supposed to be good. The Passes defensed stat should be more telling than it appears to be. Nice write up Thanks!

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 17, 2009 8:17 AM CST reply actions

Nnamdi

Has to get most of his tackles in run support because receivers never catch the ball in front of him. His passes defended are low because the opposition never throws at him. His interceptions are low because the opposition never throws at him.

Hard to rack up stats when the other team’s QB avoids your side of the field like the plague.

This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.

by KCSatchmo on Dec 17, 2009 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

My point exactly

The best CB’s aren’t thrown at. Thus few stats.
Maybe the most passes defensed is a negative stat cause the enemy is always throwing at them.

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Dec 17, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions

yes, but, you have to start throwing at them to learn how good they are :)

now if it lasted 4 or 5 years, then you would probably be an average back.

Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!

I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.

by Lanier63 on Dec 17, 2009 10:17 AM CST up reply actions

True

I expect the Revis stats to fall off the map next year.

This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.

by KCSatchmo on Dec 17, 2009 10:35 AM CST up reply actions

And why is that?

It’s because your EYES tell you he’s a BEAST.

I’m more interested in what people’s eyes tell them about Flowers and Carr. I think Flowers is one of the smartest players on the field, and it’s very dangerous to try to throw in front of him. What he lacks (and this is one of the reasons SD dominated our DBs) is height, and he doesn’t seem to have enough speed to make up for it. Stride for stride, even on the out ‘n’ up, post and deep slants, but there’s a pretty wide target window when all he can do is grab the receiver around the waist and hope the ball is dislodged on those routes. He needs help over the top against big and fast. He looked downright slow against Manningham and the Gi’nts and he looked slow and small against Vincent Jackson and the Bolts.

If all Carr did was jam and defend the long ball, he can do the one thing that Flowers really can’t, which is play tall, fast and physical. I think he’s been schemed and trained to be more like Brandon, but that that is not necessarily his strength. And BOTH these guy were selected with the understanding that there would always be plenty of safety help over the top, in a defense designed to shut down the offensive backfield with 4 linemen all day long.

As stagdsp and I were saying last summer, the DBs KC had in place probably would’ve been pretty good this season, if the Chiefs had been more successful with their front 4 or 5 at generating pressure on the o-backfield. I think they’re a NT short of that particular goal, and because of the limitations in their secondary, they’re limited in the number of ways they can dial up the blitzes without giving up the obvious 1-on-1 mismatch. My hat’s off to Clancy for being willing to throw the dice and mix things up to give them a chance, but there are holes that no amount of trickery can fully obscure.

To see where the true strengths lie, look no further than PIT and OAK victories. To see where serious progress needs to be made this offseason, look no further than Baltimore for what a nimble, rocket-armed QB can do on his own against us, and ANY of SD, DAL, PHI, NYG games for the numerous WRs for which KC currently has no answer.

Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.

by hmills110 on Dec 17, 2009 2:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Correction

I think Flowers is plenty physical. He plays much bigger than his weight, with a nice mixture of courage and body control/leverage. You want to teach a kid how to tackle, just build a Brandon Flowers highlight reel (reminds me of James Hasty, only not as big and powerful as Hasty was) and tell him to do it the way Flowers does it.

Brandon Carr made some nice breaks on some passes last week against the Bills.

by hmills110 on Dec 17, 2009 2:23 PM CST up reply actions

Not sure what I did

to bring all that on. All I said ws that Revis will have a stats decline because QBs are finding hi impossible to thrown on.

I do trust my eays more than any stat. I tend to watch the CBs more than any otehr position on D when I’m at the game because they’re so often off-screen when watching on TV.

Flowers is an absolute stud. In single coverage, he’s on his man like glue…every play. He’s above average when chipping receivers at the line and you can see him improving in this area every game. He reminds me of a young Kevin Ross.

Carr is a little over agressive. Double moves give him trouble. He has very good hands when chipping at the line, but I worry about his feet and he doesn’t have elite recovery speed. He’s ok and getting better in this system. He’d be improving faster in a cover 2 scheme imo.

This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.

by KCSatchmo on Dec 17, 2009 6:47 PM CST up reply actions

It ain't about you. It's about me. Just goin' off.

Trying to get something started in line with the Post’s subject line…

I think Flowers has some very strong points. He’s everything you have in a Darrell Green, only he’s not a dominant athlete. Green could get away with being that much smaller than his opponent by being faster and able to sky for the ball.

I realize it’s heresy to criticize Flowers on AP. On a great team, he looks to me like a nickel back you look for excuses to put on the field, but he’s not somebody who should single-up on much taller WRs all day long.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 3:50 AM CST up reply actions

The rules make it tougher for little guys now.

When Green was playing you cut be a little more physical and “cheat” a bit. the league has made rules to make it very hard for corners to succeed because fans like throwing offense.

by saskwatch on Dec 18, 2009 10:06 AM CST up reply actions

Green was also the fastest man on the field...

… and he could out-jump anyone for the ball.

I don’t see Flowers ever falling off the right 53, but I think people kid themselves about his limitations, and how his size dictates what they can and can’t do on D, and what the offenses around the league can and can’t do against the current #1 CB on the KC roster.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 2:30 PM CST up reply actions

I agree

He has shut down some great WRs. He did a great job last week against TO.

Flowers is a guy I would go to battle with every week. Best defender on our team IMO.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 18, 2009 2:45 PM CST up reply actions

Actually, I think you're disagreeing with me.

Yeah, I think Flowers is a dynamite player. And I would definitely go to battle with him any day of any week. He’s the best defender on a generally weak position group.

But for all the great WRs you say he shut down, I saw some great WRs make game-winning catches behind and above him. If there weren’t more glaring weaknesses elsewhere on the squad, I think teams would pick on him a whole lot more.

Yes, he’s stride-for-stride (a half-step behind), but there’s a pretty big window within the WR’s reach and out of his. Darryl Green could accelerate and elevate at the end of the pass to compensate for this. Flowers can only hope to jar the ball loose as the WR brings it down. So, on a STRONG secondary, Flowers is jamming, covering, and sometimes blitzing in the slot, dropping into the middle zone when least expected, and generally disrupting everything the offense wants to do. But he’s not the guy I put on an island outside all day long against a playoff contender, if MY secondary is playoff-caliber. Maybe as the changeup, but not as the staple. KC doesn’t have anybody like that on the roster.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions

Absolutely agree.

I hate to say, but I’ve seen more closing ability and ability to elevate and knock the ball away from Ellis Hobbs than from Flowers, even though Flowers is a fine defensive player.

Anyone remember the winning touchdown against the Pats in the Super Bowl? A 6’5" Plaxico Buress against a 5’9" Hobbs. That’st the sort of thing I think we’ll see a lot until we get a mix of big and fast in the secondary, to give us some flexibility in terms of matchups.

by DanielUM on Dec 18, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions

Thanks. It means a lot to not just be shouted down or ignored on this by somebody.

But you and I always seem to agree, so maybe we just have the same blind spots, DanielUM.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 3:48 PM CST up reply actions

Looks pretty good. both our guys are in the top half and still getting better.

At LEAST one new safety this year and bring Page back next year. We should be in pretty good shape.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 17, 2009 8:37 AM CST reply actions

The best cornerbacks in the league have terrible stats

I’d look at “targets” and “burn rate” as the most important stat at ascertain an elite corner.
From what I remember Deion Sanders had “terrible” stats for a DB

Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.

by craig in calgary on Dec 17, 2009 10:19 AM CST reply actions

+ a bunch

This is my signature line. It is full of awesome and win.

by KCSatchmo on Dec 17, 2009 10:36 AM CST up reply actions

Prime sure refused to tackle, I remember that

+1 on your other point about stats

Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!

I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.

by Lanier63 on Dec 17, 2009 11:09 AM CST up reply actions

Prime's business decisions made me think less of him as a man.

But his dominance in coverage made a HUGE difference for the teams he played on. It was an impact that was irreplaceable, so on balance, I’d say that those decisions were probably better team football. Champ Bailey can make you feel like it’s pointless to pass OR run to his side of the field, but he’s knocked himself out of quite a few games with his aggression, and been limited in quite a few games, playing at less-than-100% quite a few times. Still, I’d vote for him before Prime for the HOF (if it were a choice between the two), because Bailey’s a FOOTBALL PLAYER.

by hmills110 on Dec 17, 2009 2:30 PM CST up reply actions

Compared to Albert Lewis and Kevin Ross

I always thought he was more of an overhyped liability.

"The way this works is you string together some good games, some good practices and you get momentum and you gain confidence," linebacker Mike Vrabel said. "It can be a real positive for your team. It builds on itself."

by cpa913 on Dec 17, 2009 4:44 PM CST up reply actions

Heh.

Tonight he made this comment about “poor tackling in the secondary,” as if he was this hard-nosed old-school ex-player.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 3:51 AM CST up reply actions

Agree with craig in calgary. Tackles, interceptions, and passes defensed aren't good indicators of a cornerback's impact.

Woodson is at the top of the categories, but he doesn’t play as most cornerbacks do – he’s all over the field, and he’s a better tackler than most safeties in the league. He’s also probably the best blitzer among corners.

William Gay leads the corners in solo tackles, but he’s one of the weak links in the Pitt defense; he’s always being targeted, so he gets a lot of tackles.

Passes defensed is a hard one, too – there are good players who don’t appear on the list, and good ones who do (Revis is a good indicator – teams are trying to pick on the single coverage, while Asomugha isn’t even tested anymore.

One thing I’m curious about is the absence of Leon Hall (Cinci) from this list – he and Jonathan Joseph form the top cornerback tandem (other teams have better individual corners, but no other team has two first-round corners playing at their level) in the league in my opinion. Joseph is all over the list, but Hall isn’t anywhere to be seen.

by DanielUM on Dec 17, 2009 11:16 AM CST reply actions

A lot can be determined by the style of defense.

A man-to-man scheme produces a much different analysis than a zone defense. 3-4 versus a 4-3 can be different as well. CB is one of the harder positions to anaylyze by stats because of all the variables.

Brandon Carr is up there in passes defensed, but he also gets a very high number of passes completed on him. Tackles – are they at the line of scrimmage, for losses, or 15 yards down the field? Makes a big difference.

by BinSC on Dec 17, 2009 11:41 AM CST reply actions 1 recs

Yeah, style of defense...

plays a big part on how effective a certain position is.

Hali, Johnson, Vrable, Mays, Williams, Studebaker, Belcher

-Come Get Some-

by Chiefsfan85 on Dec 17, 2009 12:23 PM CST up reply actions

Well right there you've come up with a better measure: completion percentage in his direction.

by hmills110 on Dec 17, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions

The stats are nice, but:

Actually watching Flowers play is where I find the most reason to be excited. I’ve been saying since the day we drafted him that Brandon Flowers will be a spectacular CB for us. In college he showed the cerebral skills that are so important at that position. He can sniff out runs and watches the QB closely. He makes clean breaks on the ball.

Much of this has carried over to his pro career. Even though he’s a little undersized, he makes up for it by playing smart. How many batted passes does he have each game? He hits the receiver hard at just the right moment to jar the ball loose. Maybe it’s just me, but it seems like EVERY Sunday Brandon Flowers makes at least 2 nice plays a game, be those INTs or passes noticebly defended due to good CB play. Just keep that in mind next time you watch him play. I’m telling you this guy has a lot of potential to be something special.

My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:

"Shut the f--- up."
-Matt Cassel

"WHAT THE F---?!?!"
-Todd Haley

by Red N Gold Beast on Dec 17, 2009 4:05 PM CST reply actions

agreed

he does make a lot of plays on the ball.
he could have 6 INTs if he had been able to hold on to a couple more that were in his hands.

fixing the Safety and NT positions would make all of these guys look better!
maybe add another pass rushing OLB, too :)

* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers

by stagdsp on Dec 17, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions

Also do not forget that the success of Corners are also related to the pressure on the QB.

I think our corners have played very well considering the lack of consistent pass rush. Often when they have struggled or been burned on big plays, the QB is running around for 5 seconds. It is impossible to cover guys forever. I think Flowers and Carr would be very solid with a good pass rush.

by saskwatch on Dec 18, 2009 10:00 AM CST reply actions

+1

by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 18, 2009 10:11 AM CST reply actions

Remember

We have little pass rushing ability, so these guys have to cover forever. If we ever had a really consistent pass rush they would have more INT’s. Carr needs to improve certain things like the cushion he gives up all the time, but Flowers is a top 3 NFL corner. He’s been a Godsend.

Matt Verderame

by Flowers24 on Dec 18, 2009 1:41 PM CST reply actions

Top 3 on the Chiefs roster? Surely #1 in KC.

But not top 3 in the league.

He was outgunned by receivers from PHI, NYG, DAL, SD, OAK. He’s a very very good corner. But not top 3 in the league.

I TOTALLY understand the man-love for Flowers, and I would DEFinitely want him on the field ‘most all day, because he’s a great football player. I’d find all kinds of excuses to run nickel, but he’s part of the team speed problem as the #1 corner. As the #2 or #3, or as a free-roaming safety, he’d be among the top handful, for sure, especially with better pressure up front. But I wouldn’t want to ever see him going against the top 10 or 15 WRs in the league, without help over the top. It’s too easy for too many QB-WR tandems to play pitch and catch against him, because of his height and good-but-less-than-dominant speed. He’s like James Hasty, only not as big as James Hasty. So it’s natural to love the guy, but I think a lot of fans kid themselves about Flowers, because he’s the best of a bad deal.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 2:48 PM CST up reply actions

I was at the Dallas game

And I don’t remember him being outgunned at all. A no-name (at that time) Miles Austin burned our safeties all day long.

And Oakland?

But I agree with your point.

by cpa913 on Dec 18, 2009 3:06 PM CST up reply actions

You’re saying the deep help was burned by a no-name. This presupposes that there was 2-deep help all day long and the KC secondary was burned all day long. Does that not say anything about the corners?

You can say “Yeah, well they were in cover-2 and Flowers did his job,” and you’re kind of making my point. They’re in cover 2 quite a bit and Flowers is a BEAST in that scheme, denying anything underneath, a sure tackler, with real genius in run support. With more speed at S over the top, you’d be set, assuming you wanted to run cover-2 all day long."

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 3:17 PM CST up reply actions

That's not what I'm saying at all

Flowers – in man coverage – would be lined up against the #1 wide receiver, and if I remember correctly, Roy E Williams, was out

Flowers and Carr pretty much shut down Hurd and Crayton. But it was Leggett, and/or the deep help that got burnt by Austin all day.

I can’t remember how much they were in a cover-2, but that zone defense is killing us this year. Flowers and Carr can go man-to-man, I think the problem is the nickle, safety or linebacker that would have to help in the multiple receiver sets.

by cpa913 on Dec 18, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions

So Austin was killing us.

OK. You put Flowers on him and problem is solved, by your logic. So, the defensive coaches were idiots?

Actually, I came into the DAL game wishing Williams were starting over Miles, because my eyes told me Miles was a lot more dangerous (His problem has been his danger to himSELF, always getting banged up even as he stretched out to grab the brass ring.).

That aside, and I don’t want to get into a pissin’ contest on this, I think Flowers presents a mismatch against a fairly large number of #1 and #2 WRs in the NFL. He’s not in the same category as Revis, Woodson, Harris, Asomougha, Bailey, … He’s very good, especially considering his height and lack of elite speed, but he lacks height and elite speed.

by hmills110 on Dec 18, 2009 3:54 PM CST up reply actions