Breaking Down Matt Cassel's Incompletions
by Joel Thorman on Dec 16, 2009 9:18 AM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintThe hotly debated topic around town has been the play of Kansas City Chiefs quarterback Matt Cassel. Plenty of folks can point to his poor statistics and argue that he's regressing as a quarterback and, simply, not getting it done. Other folks point to the offensive line and/or receivers as the culprits for his poor statistics.
Chiefs head coach Todd Haley didn't put the entire blame on Cassel for Sunday's four-interception game. Two of those picks were on-target, but the ball was tipped into the air. Another one was a desperation throw at the end of the half.
"I thought the quarterback did a good job of fighting through some adversity and ultimately put us in a position to potentially win that game," Haley said.
With a big hat tip to Ed Thompson of Scout.com, we'll take a statistical look at some of Cassel's incompletions this season compared to what he had to work with in New England.
Drops
Chiefs receivers have dropped 9.2% of Cassel's throws this season. If you're wondering, that's a very high amount.
How does that compare to Cassel's receivers in New England last year? They dropped 5% of his passes, which means Kansas City receivers are dropping nearly twice as many passes that are on-target.
Cassel's completion percentage would be closer to 58% this season if the Chiefs receivers dropped passes in line with the Patriots receivers last season.
Just bad passes
69 of 392 throws have been just bad passes that were off target. Of course, plenty of things can contribute to that but that's pretty hard to quantify.
Last year, Cassel had 67 off-target passes with 516 attempts.
So, something's definitely up. Offensive line? No rhythm with receivers? Regression? All possibilities and/or contributing factors.
Other reasons for incompletions
- Knocked down by defender (10.1%)
- Batted down at the line (3.5%)
- Intentional grounding (3.7%)
All these percentages are in line with what he did in New England.
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I am glad that he is fairly in line with last year
His errant throws can be corrected. It is hard for a young QB to grow on such a bad team with receivers who weren’t even in training camp.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
not a big Cassel guy,
but it seems like many of those things can be addressed w’ a whole off-season to correct mechanics, watch film & develop chemistry w’ receivers, etc…..however, if those kind of stats continue next season, there will definitely be reason to believe he has regressed & is not the guy Pioli thought he was…..
QB coach would have been nice this year.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Dec 16, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
and a better WR coach
…and either Lawrence developing or a real legit deep threat opposite Bowe who’s more of a hands guy…
He needs a QB coach and an OC
I am not sure who he does meetings with, but he has said that Haley is never there in QB meetings. This definitely puts Cassel at a disadvantage.
no for $63 million
he should be able to do it all himself, just ask some of the people on this site they seem to think that
Whenever they're on the sideline, he looks at aerial shots with Coach Sirianni.
That’s our quality control coach. He was a WR in college, and coached on the college level for about 5 yrs (FBS level I think? Someone back me up here).
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 16, 2009 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
+1 million
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Cassel sucks...
you all talk like a bunch of fans that would be content with going 9-7,10-6 and getting beat in the first round of the playoffs.
58% is still a terrible completion percentage
Nice to see everyone feels the need to make excuses for a $63 million piece of crap
Predictions for 2009:
The Chiefs will regret cutting LJ
Bowe's numbers regress due to lack of decent QB play.
The D gets better in the second half but still is plagued by big plays
Cassel looks more like the guy Pioli almost cut in the '08 preseason instead of the franchise QB he hoped he would be when he traded him for
Chiefs 3-13
Let's grade the O-Line, before throwin' the guy under da bus!
Then let’s factor in the fact that the WRs aren’t getting open, and DBs are able to sit on routes more often than not, and attack the short stuff.
First thing I’d fix is the running game, with a line that imposes its will on defenses, forcing them to honor the run. Then get at least one guy with real speed on the edge who will get open when the defense tries the run-blitz.
Then reevaluate Cassel’s game.
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
I know it makes you and others upset Bones, when people seem to be defending Cassel.
But we should take a minute and put ourselves in his shoes and think about his disadvantages. If you were a player with one years starting experience and everyone is playing musical chairs around you, wouldn’t it be hard to stomach and adapt?
Plus, his 63 million was pretty much the going-rate (and if you think that’s a shocker, think about what we’ll have to pay our top 5 draft pick or a marquee free agent. It’ll make your head spin).
I think many wrongly equate “big contract” with “he’s supposed to fix everything.” He can’t do that, nor was he expected to. You might overpay $3000 for a plumber to fix your sink, but the plumber still might make mistakes. You complain about it, the plumber will fix it. And from his mistakes will learn for future jobs.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
by jk86 on Dec 16, 2009 9:54 AM CST up reply actions 4 recs
maybe
they all think since hes making that much money he should beable to run down the field and help the receivers catch the ball too.
by banshee_01 on Dec 16, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Also, and I think this is really important, Cassel has absorbed and ungodly amount of punishment this year.
I think part of the “digression” (if that’s what it really is) can be chalked up to the fact the his body has taken a level of abuse that is hard for people like us who have never played the game or played the game with athletic freaks of nature to comprehend. In short, Cassel has had the shit beaten out of him this year and after four months of that it might be taking a physical and mental toll. He’s on the run from the second the ball is snapped. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Cassel just in his ability to take this kind of a beating and get back up again. I know a lot of people who post on these boards have probably never played and the game and almost none of us have played at the pro level against guys who are this large and this strong and powerful. Before you bitch about Cassel think about having a guy like Albert Haynesworth and a roid case like Shawn Merriman come over to your house on Sunday afternoon and beat the shit out of you for 3 hours each week for four months.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Dec 16, 2009 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
No Defense
Excuses, excuses. Nothing is Cassel’s fault and everything goes on either the o-line, receivers, coach, negative fans, etc. It’s time to look at Cassel. He has been awful this year. Giving him that contract was a huge mistake. He has ONE year experience since high school. ONE year! No college, just one year with the Pats and that justifies $63 million? A top 5 draft pick would at least have college experience.
It’s time to stop making excuses for Cassel and look at what he has done. The NFL is a tough business, that’s just the way it goes. Cassel has been doing a fair amount of whining too. It’s time up put up or shut up.
Can I ask when he's whined, Royal?
I haven’t been able to see all of the games live every week…all of the quotes in the paper are the usual team stuff.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 16, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
58% isn't great
But it’s not as terrible as you try to make it seem (check out Elway’s career stats…).
by Joel Thorman on Dec 16, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
Don't come around here comparing that a-hole to a Chief...
by HIV 2 Elway on Dec 16, 2009 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Or these two guys
Dan Marino: 59.4%
Warren Moon: 58.4%
by MJR on Dec 16, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
he isn't....
at 58% its more like 54. Any stats you throw out can be said about any other QB. It’s not the stats its about how he handles himself in the pocket,the quikness of his reads and his decision making ability under pressure. All are poor.Stop making excuses!
I've been critical of Cassel too
But I can’t stand when people sit on their coach stuffing dorito’s in their mouth and call a professional athlete who is clearly playing his heart out, a piece of crap
-10000
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 16, 2009 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree. There's been a lot of venom towards many of our players.
Maybe its the economy, maybe its something else, but I’m convinced the players are trying their best to win.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Agreed but not convinced that everyone is giving their all....
I don’t see everyone on the team trying their best with fire and pride. I do however believe we get that from Cassel.
by casselreadychiefs on Dec 16, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
I disagree
I think it should be obvious to everyone including dorito eating couch potatoes that Cassel fumbles around, bumps into his RB’s, stands there wondering what’s going on, over throws, under throws and then gets sacked.
What are you disagreeing with?
You think he isn’t trying?
I never said he is having a good season, I just think its unacceptable to call someone a " piece of crap"
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Dec 16, 2009 11:35 AM CST up reply actions
who's sitting on the coach?
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions
What about Drew Brees?
Would you agree he is a good QB? Well what about his 3rd year in the league when he posted these jaw dropping stats:
205 completions in 356 attempts for a completion percentage of 57.6. For 11 TD’s and 15 picks. This was in 11 games. The Chargers sucked that year. They won 4 games. Brees had been mediocre at best to that point. He threw just about as many picks as TD’s.
Then…something happened. The Chargers got better and magically, so did Brees. In 2004 he completed 65.5% of his passes and threw 27 TD’s vs. 7 picks.
So don’t give me this crap about how horrible Cassel is. He has proven he can do well on a good team. He is on a bad team and not many YOUNG QB’s can make a bad team good. They just can’t especially not while they are still developing themselves.
I’d hate like hell to dump Cassel because he had a bad season on a shitty team and then, in 5 years, watch him lead another team to the Super Bowl.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 16, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions 13 recs
Best comment I've read all season long.
Thanks for the perspective.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
thanks mate
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 16, 2009 11:41 AM CST up reply actions
Name a QB
that would be good with this offensive line, this playcalling, no QB coach, no real offensive coordinator, 2 new offensive systems in the offseason (Chan’s then Haley’s), a new featured receiver pretty much every 2-3 weeks, and for the most part having Larry Johnson who wouldn’t pass block for his own mom?
I am not saying Cassel is the next great QB but he did play well when he was on a good team and he has earned respect for the way he has handled himself this season. He doesn’t whine or complain. He gets up after every hit and keeps playing.
by Fozzyboyd on Dec 16, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Drew Brees
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 16, 2009 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
Watching him run behind that line only highlighted the absolute necessity for us to get a good solid pro bowl offensive line if Cassel is ever going to have a chance to be a great QB for us. He doesn’t have the raw talent like Schaub, Brees, Manning or Favre. Not even close.Watching him run behind that line only highlighted the absolute necessity for us to get a good solid pro bowl offensive line if Cassel is ever going to have a chance to be a great QB for us. He doesn’t have the raw talent like Schaub, Brees, Manning or Favre. Not even close.
If you’re not familar with that, Kray, you wrote it. Seems to me that is arguing both sides.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
I seem to remember someone making excuses for 2.7 while he was still on the team...
Make sure you give The Hoff some love:
Here's to you Steve Hoffman
by thehulk on Dec 16, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
bad throw % is up from 13% to 17%
rest of it in line … hmmm … he’s looking rather ordinary, at best, I think … and have to agree with what bonesy just said: his comp% is way too low, for here or anywhere
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
See above.
I’m not sold on the 63 million dollar man, certainly not beyond the 20 or 30 million guaranteed, which lasts about as long as we expect the rebuild to take.
Meanwhile, KC can draft some young QBs with upside and develop them (assuming they get a QB coach).
Prediction for '09: Chiefs are looking like a .500 team, especially considering Denver's inattention to D-Line, Chokeland's disarray, and a San Diego team that looks like it's on the decline. With a weak schedule, Chiefs steal a few and win between 7 and 9 games, and if .500 or better, will contend for supremacy in a weak division.
agreed, mills
Pioli would be colossally stupid to not draft a QB in the next 2-3 years, and even more so to not hire a qb coach…..I cant believe they didn’t this year…..especially after the ill-timed firing of Chan Gailey
I always read Pioli drafts a QB in EVERY draft.
Just to take a shot.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Yeah, I think since we got Guti from the Pats he didn't feel the need to.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
I am fine with our QBs
If we want to bring in an UDRFA that is fine, but I don’t think we should waste a draft pick on a QB that is only going to make the PS at best.
upamtn
I think part of the reason his completion % is so low is his limited experience in the league. I’m sure it would be much more flattering after 7-8 years of starting for the team you’re playing for.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Rather ordinary?
Well, his contract is a little above average. I think he can be a QB in the 10-12 range and I’d be content with that.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 16, 2009 9:56 AM CST up reply actions
I totally agree.
Everyone acts like we are paying this guy elite money. You can complain that it is too much money. He is being paid as an average middle of the road QB. His contract is comparable to Garrard, Delhomme, and Bulger to name a few (and honestly I would take Cassel over any of those guys). I think he can definetly be a top 12 QB with a O-line and more consistency at WR.
I also believe he will never be an elite QB, and I always believe if you get a chance to draft a QB that you think can be elite, you never pass it up.
With as poor as he's playing now
we might have gotten him cheaper if we had waited. It would have been a risk, but he’s not currently playing at the level he is being payed (whatever the reasons).
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Dec 16, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions
Ah, gotcha.
It was a 50/50 shot, and to be honest I don’t think he’s getting overpaid for the amount of crap being flung at him.
If you only knew...
I won't argue with that.
It was a gamble. If he would have played great it might of cost us a lot more, and there was a possibilty of losing him long term. I was personally hoping they let him played under the franchise tag and then tagging him again if we had to (if there is no collective bargaining agreement he actually would be a restricted free agent again).
I really believe Pioli and Haley thought he would excel and might cost more money. They were able to sign him for a reasonable dollar (and it actually is not a lot of money when you consider if we paid him under franchise tags back to back years it would have been in the 30 million dollar range.
hey sas how are you?
I want to comment on the money thing. I don’t care about the money. granted some people do keep bringing it up but to me it shouldn’t be about the money. We don’t pay him and we don’t write his checks.
I care about winning. I’m a fan. I’m not supposed to worry about salaries and such. So to me I only care that he is not a very good QB. Period. There is NOTHING anywhere that would point to otherwise.
Kray, when did you decide to go anti?
Maybe I missed something but this is a different take from you.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Dec 16, 2009 3:11 PM CST up reply actions
Joel..you stated that the KC receivers are dropping nearly twice the amount of passes
that are thrown “ON TARGET”. I beg to differ there. I dare day you or anyone can prove that those dropped passes were on target every time. I venture to say that a good majority are of the variety that I see every game. OVERTHROWN or UNDERTHROWN.
Still though it’s valid about the drops. I’m just saying.
No
A dropped ball means the pass was catchable or on-target.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 16, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
Just askin
Are passes that go off the fingertips considered catchable or off-target?
Most stats I've seen deem those off-target.
I’m not saying these are, I just know that the jumping/diving attempts that are just off the fingertips are considered the QB’s “fault” by most statisticians.
I struggle to see why people are doubting the number of passes dropped by our guys. I thought it was more, personally.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
don't Chiefs recievers lead the NFL in dropped passes?
that stat is pretty telling in itself. Cassel isn’t great by any means, but the recievers aren’t helping him very much either.
Absolutely.
Most around here want to fix the players around him and see if that helps out. By that time, his cap hit will be nothing, and if he doesn’t work out, deal him.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:26 AM CST up reply actions
that's kinda what i think
I like the idea of grooming a young QB under Cassel, building depth and young replacements behind the starters, a la Philly & what they’re doing right now w’ McNabb & Kolb. By the time McNabb goes, Kolb will be ready to step in with young stars like McCoy, Jackson & Maclin hitting their prime.
Considering the situations that some of those dropped passes have been the drops are a lot worse than the numbers can show.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
I wouldn't mind seeing
The stats for big first down throws he’s made that got called back for various penalties. It seems like we’ll make a big play, get called for a (sometimes BS) penalty, and it makes for a 3rd and 20 situation. He’s then usually having to force a deeper, better covered throw in order to get the first down.
Either that, or we do that delay-draw thing I hate watching us run. =)
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Hate that bubble screen
or wide receiver screen or whatever it’s called. A completed pass for a loss, Yea!
it'll be good for the future
when we’re able to effectively stretch the field vertically and get some guys in space, but it doesn’t work very well right now, that’s for sure. We just don’t have the personnel to make that happen.
Yeah I can’t remember what game it was I was watching, maybe Philly’s Sunday night, but I was amazed at how well that play actually works when the defense worries about the receivers.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Hate for our team!
Unfortunately many teams like New England, AZ & the Broncos can run it very effectively. Our guys last Sunday kept running into each other with the blocking receiver. Very frustrating….need better execution and play makers.
by casselreadychiefs on Dec 16, 2009 10:52 AM CST up reply actions
I don't hate the team
Just hate to see that play go for negative yards.
You should hear the Giants fans at the bar I go to.
The stats for big first down throws he’s made that got called back for various penalties. It seems like we’ll make a big play, get called for a (sometimes BS) penalty, and it makes for a 3rd and 20 situation.
They laugh and laugh when I get excited about a big play, then cuss like a sailor at the penalty. They’ve started asking what the flag will be during big plays. It’s really sad.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Dec 16, 2009 10:40 AM CST up reply actions
Exactly.
Between that and the drops, it’s hard for this offense to really get in a rhythm.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:42 AM CST up reply actions
you're right, Kalo
I would love to see that stat… I think it would say a lot
getting a big play called back is so deflating…
along with drops and sacks… they really shut down good drives
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
Irony. =)
Comment:
I would love to see that stat…
Sig line:
Stats are for losers
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions
well played, sir :)
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
ahh...thank you for the clarification...my brother and I are arguing over your post lol!!
Oh well he wins this one!! Tks Joel he already beats me at Madden now this?? (-:
big plays
would also love to know how many were called back
on top of that I wonder how many times ive seen charles 1 block away from six, and bradley doesnt finish his block…so the person who said WR’s need to block as well as they catch…very true, and if its any indication of how we’re blocking…we lead the league in drops…I just keep seeing Charles SO CLOSE to bouncing it outside, then someone gets lazy.
i stick with
give cassel an o-coordinator, and a QB’s coach
get cassel 3 OL
get cassel wr targets, a TE, and a power back for short yardage(charles to me is still 15-20 carries/touches..unless we want to use him on coverage units etc
personally I dont see a problem, I just see a QB that is tough, can lead, and just needs the time, and to do it, as well as someone to gameplan with him, and coach mechanics.
choirboy, that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
its frustrating to hear that
when rookies make more in the top 5….DAVID GARRARD IS ALSO a 60 MILLION DOLLAR MAN….
ITS RIDICULOUS
that matt cassel, he sure Killed our Cap space didnt he?
good god, we HAD to spend SOME darn money….but hey, if you think you would be happy with TYLER THIGPEN as the franchise….go for it, thigpen HIT HIS CEILING…HIT THE APEX OF HIS SUCCESS…
Cassel WILL be the guy who leads this team, trent green is enough proof, and trent had far less talent than cassel, but had more around him when he threw TWENTY FOUR PICKS
by SDChief on Dec 16, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
not even mentoning that they lead the nfl in drops, and have the worst line in football
some say its all on cassel, its not…
and charles’ running isnt great blocking, its jamaal charles….
the OL hasnt provided more time as everything has been quick, till he gets comfortable he cant be your “63 million dollar man” which btw, I get sick of reading, I mean, we pay over 50 to dorsey and jackson…what have they done to be worth that? so really…cool it
I cant wait till cassel proves you wrong.
how do these percentages compare to the league average for qb’s? seems like a good starting point for comparison…along with the 5 best and worst starting qbs pased on those percentages/ stats outside of KC
"We're not losers, we just can't win!"
by chief Stevie_k on Dec 16, 2009 11:37 AM CST reply actions
Here you go:
5 Best:
Brees – 69.9%
Schaub – 68.5%
Rothlesberger – 68.3%
Favre – 68.1%
P. Manning – 68.1%
5 Worst:
Russel – 48.0%
Freeman – 52.5%
Quinn – 52.7%
Sanchez – 53.2%
Stafford – 53.3%
Cassel would be the next lowest. 58-59% with the receiver drop rate of last year would put him right with Eli, Carson Palmer, Garrard, and Bulger. (20-25)
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
need to factor in receiver drops for the rest of the QBs also then.
by MountainManMike on Dec 16, 2009 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
Sure...find me those stats.
We were lucky enough to have someone else tabulate those. If you can net them, we will. The stats say he’s mid 54% without the drops factored in, and as that’s what the NFL stats say, I stated that Cassel was the next lowest after those five. I also have stated that if the receivers were AVERAGE with their drops, it would be better, and showed where he could be based on average drop #’s alone.
We all are aware of at least the Raiders drop . It’s high like ours. However, the original post has referenced that 4 gap of an average receiving corps, so I included that little tidbit as well, as I’m sure someone would ask otherwise.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:03 PM CST up reply actions
...that second paragraph deleted my "%" symbols. Why?
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:04 PM CST up reply actions
So if the recievers weren't terrible
And had the same or similar drop rate as his last year…his % would be up in the 60’s somewhere eh?
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
What I want to know is...
For all of you Cassel bashers out there…2 questions.
1. Who should be starting in place of Cassel if he is so horrible? And if you say Brokie Croyle, give a reason why you think his leg won’t just fall off just because he’s Brokie. Also, explain the horrible statistics he had when he entered into the Bronco game? (42% completion percentage).
2. If you believe so strongly against Cassel, you probably think we wasted our money on him last year…so what should we have done instead of picking up the tab for Cassel this past off season? Draft Sanchez? What other FA QBs were out there worth picking up?
Let me know cause I don’t understand how we should have done things differently. Also, I don’t understand how Brokie is the answer…he’s one play away from breaking something on his body and that’s a scary thought considering he would be our starting QB with the terrible OLine we have.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 11:47 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
The bitchers won't answer this question because they just like to bitch.
Likely they don’t have an answer, but one of the things that annoys me most about sports fandom are they people who think being a more knowledgeable fan means being immediately negative about the team. They are always the most obnoxious people in sports bars. These are the same idiots who bitch about beating the Raiders and saying “beating a team like the Raiders doesn’t count as a win in my book.” These same people must forgotten all the ugly wins the Chiefs had in the 90s. These are people who swear by Jason Whitlock as a great sports analyst.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Dec 16, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
anyone who swears Whitlock is a great sports analyst...
immediately loses any and all respect I might have afforded them.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
+1...
Being pessimistic and unrealistic are too separate things. If you look at history all this season says to me is we still don’t know. I’m not promising Cassel will lead us to a superbowl, but I’m sure as hell not writing him off yet.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Dec 16, 2009 12:56 PM CST up reply actions
jockey on a donkey
Cassel’s like a jockey who’s gone from riding a thoroughbred last year to riding a donkey in the same races this year.
It’s hard to tell how good a rider he is on this mount. All we know is he looked good the last time he was on a good horse. I think it makes more sense to try to put him on a good horse again, instead of worrying about changing jockeys. Whoever’s on top of this jackass of an offense is going to look like a crappy jockey.
by Offense of the 70s on Dec 16, 2009 11:56 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Dude, the whole Brokie getting killed argument is really old.
He was getting killed against the Ravens and didn’t get hurt. You cannot base your argument on events that you don’t know will happen.
You need to come up with something better than that if you are talking about Croyle. If you compare THIS SEASONS stats. Croyle is BY FAR the better of the two and that was in one game against the best defense we have faced and in a system that was only 2 weeks old at the time.
I’m not saying we need to get rid of Cassel…At all. I am just saying that Croyle needs to be looked at in this system for an extended period to see if he is worth keeping around. Plus, some time on the bench would probably be the best thing for Cassel to clear his head. Next season, I would like to see a REAL QB competition and let the best man win the starting job. That’s all I’m sayin. What would it hurt?
dude
you keep saying he faced the best defense, look it up Steelers #4 defense, Ravens #8 defense, Cassel beat the #4 defense, Brodie lost to the #8 defense, he has his chance every year to win the job and he hasnt been able to do it
Just because an argument is used over and over doesn’t make it wrong.
And we’ve given Croyle three or four chances, why not give Cassel a chance? The best man HAS won the starting job, that’s what training camp and the preseason are for deciding.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Croyle has been seriously injured at every level of football he's played.
He can’t stay on the field. There is no way he could stand up to the level of punishment Cassel’s been subjected to this year.
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Dec 16, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
That point has been noted but...
It seems as though Brodie has bulked up this year and can take the punishment much better than he has in the past. His numbers for THIS SEASON reflect that he is the better of the 2 QBs right now. This season is the only one that should be looked because this is the ONLY season on this team and in this system with these players and this staff. If you just look at that, Croyle’s numbers look better. Hands down.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:28 PM CST up reply actions
His numbers for THIS SEASON reflect that he is the better of the 2 QBs right now.
Using stats that are based on two completely different samples sizes isn’t exactly a good way to make your arguments.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Actually it would benefit Cassel more than Croyle because...
In week one this offense was only 2 weeks old. Cassel has had the entire season to prove himself. All he has proven is that he’s not ready for this job.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:34 PM CST up reply actions
that is what pracitce and the preseason is for.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think effort is in question either
but talent and performance definitely are.
I understand the o-line and receiver argument but, looking at last games, I can think of at least 5 times when he made badly off-target throws with plenty of time to throw. He also has demonstrated consistently bad pocket presence (running into sacks) and very rarely gets the ball to his receiver in exactly the right place at the right time.
The thing is… I think we have some good receivers now with Chambers and Bowe, and Pope is a pretty good tight end (though certainly not Tony). Cassel has been hit a lot this season, and he’s second in the league in being sacked… but the guy above him, Aaron Rodgers, has a 102.5 QB rating. Here are the 5 most sacked QBs in the NFL:
Rodgers 102.5 rating
Cassel 68.3 rating
Roethlisberger 98.2 rating
Garrard 84.9 rating
Campbell 89.0 rating
That’s why I don’t buy into the offensive line being the issue… several quarterbacks are getting hit a lot, but they’re not putting up a stinking 68.3 rating! I would say drops are too high, yes, mainly by guys like Bobby Wade and Lance Long… but all that would do is get his rating in the low- to mid-70s. Still really poor for your quarterback of the future in his second full season as a starter.
All that to say… I think if we can build to the point where we have playoff-caliber o-linemen and skill players, he will put up Elvis Grbac-type numbers… 25 TDs, 15 picks, and a passer rating somewhere in the 80s. He’s a servicable NFL quarterback, but I really don’t think he has the talent to be anything more than that.
rodgers and roethlisberger
have a hell of alot better receiving group then cassel has plus we have been missing our #1 receiver for 4 weeks now
by banshee_01 on Dec 16, 2009 12:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand the o-line and receiver argument but, looking at last games, I can think of at least 5 times when he made badly off-target throws with plenty of time to throw.
I’m getting tired of referring to this but as long as people bring up this argument I’ll bring up the quotes from Chambers in which HE ADMITS that the receivers have ran routes wrongly on MULTIPLE occasions make Cassel’s throws look much worse than they actually are. I’m not saying he doesn’t make bad throws, but you can’t say that they are all his fault.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
I think this is more than just the sacks.
How often is Cassel taking huge hits after he’s thrown the ball? How often is he on the run almost immediately after the ball is snapped — even out of the shotgun? I don’t know how to figure QB rating, but can somebody figure his if you take out all the dropped passes?
Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.
by Rev. Slappy on Dec 16, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
Also...
How many of those are because he refuses to get rid of the damn ball?
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions
…because his receivers aren’t open…
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Then, the logical thing would be to throw it away...right?
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
If you had time or were out of the pocket, then yes. But I also can’t fault him for trying to wait for things to develop or make something happen. If he threw it away every time no one was open you’d just bitch more about his completion % being too low.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
How do you know what I would say?
I consider that to be smart football. I’m usually not a big stat guy. I only go by what I see on the field. With that being said, Croyle looks MUCH better under center than Cassel and that is not even looking at the stats. He just looks better. More confident, prettier passes and more arm strength.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
there were several times where he didn't know he was about to get hit.
Just because you can see the players coming from the blind-side doesn’t mean the player can.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
re: chiefsfan1970... "logical to throw the ball away"
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Cassels pocket presence = not very good.
Thank you for supporting my argument.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
No, what I'm saying is ON TV YOU CAN SEE THE GUY RUNNING TOWARDS HIM FROM BEHIND
He has no time to look over his shoulder. If the O-Line did their job he wouldn’t fumble nearly as much
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Good QBs can "feel" the pressure coming.
Any great QB would tell you the same thing. Instincts are very important for a QB.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
It's hard to feel much of anything but contact in 2-3 seconds or so.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
I'm sorry Pope is not anywhere near a "pretty good TE"
The man can’t block and looks like a FB out on the field. He’s worlds apart from Tony Gonzalez. How many TDs does he have this season?
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
To clarify...
I meant a pretty good receiving tight end… he is lacking as a blocker. He is worlds apart from Tony Gonzalez, you’re right. I simply meant that he has professional receivers now, whether they’re great or not.
The fact remains – take away the drops and he still is at the most a 75 rated passer. That’s still terrible.
by u2nspenserfan on Dec 16, 2009 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
ah, k. Thanks for the clarification,
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 1:02 PM CST up reply actions
also...
when you’re getting pressured all game long…even when you have time in a game, you are expecting to get hit that play…so you’re thinking quicker than you need to because of the other plays. Using logic by saying “when he had time” doesn’t work if you ignore the rest of the game.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Have you watched the Packers?
Rodgers easily gets hit as much as Cassel… and has a 102.5 rating. Sure, his receivers are better… so let’s say they dropped the same percentage as the chiefs… that would take that rating to what… a 97? a 95? Still very good. I have been searching for a stat on this but can’t find it. It is, quite simply, having the balls to stand in and properly deliver a pass when you know you’re going to get hit.
I’m not ignoring any of the game. Yes, he got hit. Yes, he got pressured. If you can’t put that out of your mind and move on to the next play, you will never be a good quarterback in the NFL. Period.
by u2nspenserfan on Dec 16, 2009 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
+1
This is exactly how I project him- Elvis Grbac with a heart.
by Ryan in Nixa on Dec 16, 2009 3:26 PM CST up reply actions
If we're going to use the O line excuse then tell me
why is Charles excelling? It’s because great atheletes…not average…GREAT athletes excel despite the circumstances. You can’t tell me that Petyton Manning would pass for 84 yards on any team ever. NEVER. So talent is an issue here.
Charles is great that’s why he finds a way. He MAKES things happen that aren’t there. Cassel does not because Cassel is not that talented.
If the O line is all the reason then why does Charles find a way to be not good, but way great?? He’ amazing and he has the same team to work with that Cassel does. The same coaches, the same scheme, the same blockers etc.
NO MORE EXCUSES!!!! Is this really the QB you want to rest our future on??
R U kidding me? Comeon people. Demand better. We deserve it. This is our time.
I got news for you too. Uncapped is coming. Pioli is not going down like that. He will eventually replace Cassel or demote him if he doesn’t become another Brady. Pioli is used to greatness and won’t accept anything less believe that.
Watching him run behind that line only highlighted the absolute necessity for us to get a good solid pro bowl offensive line if Cassel is ever going to have a chance to be a great QB for us. He doesn’t have the raw talent like Schaub, Brees, Manning or Favre. Not even close.Watching him run behind that line only highlighted the absolute necessity for us to get a good solid pro bowl offensive line if Cassel is ever going to have a chance to be a great QB for us. He doesn’t have the raw talent like Schaub, Brees, Manning or Favre. Not even close.
As I said earlier, those are YOUR WORDS Kray. How can you be on both sides?
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
I don't think its very hard to comprehend Kray.
And its futile trying to compare QB’s to RB’s. Especially RB’s that are in the top 5 fastest athletes in the game. Charles fumbles the ball sometimes, you know. Charles has dropped hand-offs. He’s not perfect either.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
hello jk86 and good day.
I think it’s fair to compare the two because right here on AP we had the identical same debate about LJ and it was the O line’s fault there too.
My point is stop making excuses. Each man is responsible for their job. And for doing their job the best they can do. And more than that being great at it. That’s why they get paid millions. Because their expected to be great. Cassel is not great.
Secondly. I can change my opinion as time goes on and I see more of Cassel. So I am entitled to do that. If you go further back in time you will find comments from me praising and defending Cassel. I don’t hide that. I’ve always said I’m flexible. I beleive what I see.
I see a confused, inaccurate QB that is not very good. If your ok with that then that’s ok. I’m not you. I want a peyton Manning type QB here. Period I don’t care about the what ifs. I don’t care what he might be or could be or any of that. I do not care. It’s not reality. What if’s are imaginary scenario’s. Reality right now is he is a bottom ranked QB for a reason.
So you have supported Cassel in the past
and you imply that you only want an elite QB in KC. So is it fair to say that you once thought Cassel was an elite QB in the making?
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
your comment is so silly it's almost not worth replying to but I'll humor you this once
read my comments closely. I said repeatedly that he will NEVER be a Favre or a Manning type QB EVER. He does NOT have the talent to be one of those. I then said “IF” and let me say it again “IF” he is ever going to have the slightest chance to become a great QB in KC he needs a PRO BOWL o line because he sucks. That’s the point.
I don’t want a qb that needs a pro bowl o line here running my team. I ’m glad you do. Congrats. I"ve congratulated u on that over and over what more do you want? I understand you are ok with a mediocre QB. You love Cassel I get it. You can have him.
I don’t argue with you man. It’s a waste.
Once again krayfish... an entire team wins championships.
It doesn’t matter if we have the 2009 Colts on offense. Our 30th ranked defense will expose us at it did in the early 2000’s (13-3 seasons, etc. etc.)
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
It’s not worth it.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Luckily JComp11 most people have come around and understand the Cassel situation better
Let Krayfish and Chiefsfan1970 stay on a sinking ship of an opinion…
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
once again....I will take the word's of Aikman and Madden over yours. I believe they know more than you.
That’s me. I trust people who have been there and done that. Just last night on NFL network they had this exact discussion about another QB and said the exact same thing. A great team is always run by a great QB.
Eli Manning is not a great QB
The Giants won the Super Bowl
Ben Roethlesburger is a decent, but not ELITE QB and he’s won several rings. He’s benefitted from having a great TEAM around him.
Hell even Rex Grossman and Matt Hasselback led their teams to a Super Bowl.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Yep, the O-line is no longer an excuse.
I’m tired of that argument too.
How so?
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
Watch our OLine all game long...
as I did in the Buffalo game. And then watch another “good” team’s OLine (say the Saints). You will immediately notice a major difference between the two. Their blockers get a push at the line whereas our linemen are almost always immediately pushed back. Even if they are not blowing plays as they were earlier in the season as much, they are still to blame. Also, in the time frame, you Cassel bashers have been mentioning how bad he’s gotten, our #1 receiver has been out.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Because the O-line is giving Cassel sufficient time and he's done nothing but get worse.
Yes…WORSE! It seems like to me, the better the line blocks and the better the run game is, the worse #7 plays. Plus, the numbers displayed above show that other QBs with the same kind of crappy O-line play are putting up MUCH better numbers. Especially Aaron Rodgers who is one of the top rated QBs in the league and their O-line has been WAY worse than ours.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
at that same time, they've supposedly gotten better...
Bowe was out.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
exactly...now that the O line is giving him more time than he's had all season
he still can’t get it done.
And a much improved run game.
a lot less 3rd and long than what we were seeing earlier in the season. He’s still not getting the job done.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
and please stop comparing him to rookies and other FIRST year QB's
he’s not a first year rookie. He’s been in the league for years behind the greatest minds in the NFL
yes and when he was on a team
with talent on it like last year he went 11-5, he cant do everything himself, but I guess some people think he should
nope I just don't want a qb that's only good with Randy Moss and Wes Welker and hoodie
cause we ain’t got nothing like that what so ever.
There's a big difference between starting and sitting on the sidelines holding a clipboard.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:36 PM CST up reply actions
Last year...again? really?
Last year is old hat. It has no bearing on what he can do on this team in this offensive system.
…only because it doesn’t support your argument.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
So you really think it's fair to compare the Chiefs offense under Herm Edwards to the New England Patriots?
Really? Be honest with yourself.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Arguing that Cassel’s success last year shows that he could be successful with a good team around him is fair.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
But, we don't have a good team.
My argument is based on how Croyle has performed on this team, this year. If you look at that, Croyle is the better of the two. Whether you look at the stats or just watching the play on the field, Croyle is the better QB. At least right now. That’s not even mentioning the fact that Croyle didn’t have Chris Chambers in the game he started nor did he have Jamaal Charles running the ball effective to keep him out of 3rd and long. Also, the play of the O-line is MUCH better than it was in week one.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
One game vs. most of the season
Is not an accurate comparison. It just isn’t. That’s like comparing a 2 minute microwaved hot pocket to seven hour smoked brisket. And there’s a bunch of questions on this page that you are conveniently avoiding. Like, Which QB could do better with this team? Croyle’s contract is nearly up anyways.
He was hurt in high school, twice in college, and twice for the Chiefs. I don’t care if the guy turned into the incredible hulk, he has knee problems that have plagued him his entire life and will continue to do so whether or not he’s built muscle.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Again, if you see my comment earlier...
You will see that that argument only would support Cassel. Since Croyle was playing in a BRAND NEW system without Chris Chambers and Jamaal Charles as the starter, Cassel should be showing improvement. Instead, his play has declined. That’s not even mentioning the improvement of the O-line since week one.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions
I’ll agree on the OLine getting better, but the receivers have gotten worse. A LOT worse.
I just think Cassel should be allowed to play. I know he’s not a rookie, but he still needs actual game experience. Giving Croyle that time will do no good for the future of this team. I was one of the biggest Croyle supporters on here for a long time, but I think he has had his shot. Let Cassel get the experience and in the next couple of seasons we can add the talent around him.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
no qb could do good with
the team we have now, a qb cant make his receivers catch the ball, he puts the ball in a position for the receiver to do his job and catch the ball they arent doing that for him
I couldn't disagree more banshee and I like your comments and you so don't take offense
I disagree though. I think that is the most ludicrous thing to say ever. Peyton Manning would never throw for 84 yards in a game…EVER! He would be way better than cassel.
Yeah. I've heard several people say that.
The whole idea of it is just crazy.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
how can you say that
in his career hes never had a shitty offensive line, he has always had time to stand back and look the field over, lets see him have a good game when hes running for his life every play
Okay, so that is speculation.
It still has no bearing on the argument at hand.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:10 PM CST up reply actions
again correct 1970...we're not the patriots and we don't have wes welker or randy moss
or hoodie and this aint’ 2008. this is the 2009 chiefs. So let’s deal with that. Because we are never going to be the 08 pats. We need a QB that can get it done here in KC.
Won't it be NICE
in a year or two when at this time of the year we are debating playoff scenarios for the Chiefs instead of who’s at fault for this fiasco of a season?
I’m admittedly too addicted to AP to turn away from the site, but all the Cassel bashing (and to be fair loyalty) has me to the point of nausea.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
by jmcgoblue on Dec 16, 2009 12:32 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
And I'll admit
I’ve been as much a part of the debate as just about anyone.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
Did anyone else notice how horrible Kurt Warner looked on Monday Night?
I’m referencing him because his OLine looked a lot like ours that game and he wasn’t given any time to throw the ball. He wasn’t necessarily knocked down or sacked often, but he was constantly pressured…which is what happens to Cassel all game long. Warner looked very pedestrian when his OLine wasn’t playing up to snuff.
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 12:42 PM CST reply actions
Do you wanna see....
What an Elite…let alone Pro Bowl Quarterback looks like behind a bad O-Line…no receivers and a defense playing bad….two words….Jay Cutler
If you will it dude....It is no dream - Jeffery Lebowski
by ChiefsnotChefs on Dec 16, 2009 12:50 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
oh but Jay Cutler sucks and throws too many INTs...blah blah blah
"Gonna gallop all over the Chiefs. Cleat prints on the chests. Mud in the face masks." - 2.7* *Yes I know it was changed to 2.9 but f*ck the statisticians.
by Kristospherein on Dec 16, 2009 1:06 PM CST up reply actions
Here's some food for thought. Just think about it. It's not an argument it's just a thought.
Please anyone answer these two questions honestly. As if you were never a Chiefs fan and were truly unbiased ok? Do your best.
Can you name me one modern day dynasty of a team that had an average QB? NO.
The Raiders had the snake. The niners had montana and young. the cowboys had Aikman. The pats and colts have Brady and Manning. Case closed. If you have an elite QB you always have a shot. Is that not true to a large degree?
Second. Honestly, If right now today you could pick any 5 QB’s to lead the Chiefs from here on out. ANY Five that are still playing. Would you pick Cassel? Would you pass up Manning, Brady, Brees? Would you? No. You would not pick Cassel.
That’s my point. I don’t care at all what he might become someday. He’s in his late 20’s. He’s not getting any better guys. He’s not a rookie. What you see is what you get. We are not the Patriots.
Why wouldn’t you pick Cassel over Manning? BECAUSE he’s not as good. PERIOD> Ok? So I personally do not want a QB that I can’t feel I would pick in my top 5 to lead my team. That is Pioli’s job. To get us the best possible team here in KC.
And it’s a fact that while true this is a team sport. There is an offensive LINE. A defensive LINE. Those are units. There is only one QB on the team. ONE. It’s a specialist position. If you want to be an elite team it starts with the QB.
If we were fans of any other team we would not be having this silly discussion right now. Because i can assure you that fans of other teams who watch Cassels highlights and listen to the commentators comment on him think of him the same way we do about Jamarcus Russel. He is a joke QB around the league. We just don’t want to face it.
But tell me please anyone. What is the stat your pointing to that makes you so in love with this guy? What is it? Please cause neither I nor any sports professional including former NFL SB QB’s can find anything great about the guy. So what is it?
If he was the QB of the Raiders right now, we would all be raggin on him the way we do Russell. He’s not a good QB. STATS dont’ lie. Maybe for one game or two games stats can be wrong. But a QB is a solo position. And a season full of stats can’t be wrong.
What is the stat your pointing to that makes you so in love with this guy?
Maybe that is where our misunderstanding comes from. Just because we think Cassel should be given more time before we make a judgment doesn’t make us “in love” with him.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
kray, you need to understand one very simple thing
The vast majority of people who support Cassel aren’t “so in love with this guy?”. We just think there has been enough turmoil on the team outside of his control that we are willing to withhold judgment for a while longer. Nobody would argue that he has had a good season. A lot of this flaming would go away if you could understand this one point.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
This...
And do you think Brees or Peyton would want to throw to the league-leading-in-drops WR corps? It’s pretty common knowledge that if you drop a pass from Manning, he might not throw it to you for weeks.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
and
how many of Cassel’s INTs have been the result of a receiver having the ball bounce off of his hands (I can think of at least 2-3) or as a result of the receiver not running the route he was supposed to (that one is impossible to know, but I can recall at least two cases where it looked to be the case).
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
I agree.
Even so, Cassel is not playing good ball.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
Cassell Isn't Accurate
His slants are behind guys, his deep balls are either under or overthrown, his out patterns put guys in awkward positions. That is my issue with him. Trent Green threw 24 INTs his first year in KC but people saw the accuracy, unfortunately it was to the other team because receivers are out of position.
How many times have you watched a pass thrown by Cassell that neither the receiver OR defender could get to? That’s my issue with Matty C …accuracy. You don’t fix accuracy. You have it or you don’t.
Trent Green had limited skills outside the pocket and wasn’t all that big or big-armed but the thing that allowed him to excel in KC was his pinpoint ‘put the ball on a dime on a 15 yard out route’ accuracy.
I hope it’s just happy feet and jitters costing Matty C his accuracy but I’m thinking not.
Randy Moss 2007 with Brady:
98 Rec 1493 Yards 15.2 YPC
Randy Moss 2008 with Matty C
69 Rec 1008 Yards 14.6 YPC
Randy Moss 2009 with Brady
69 Rec 1074 Yard 15.6 YPC (3 games to go so he should based on this year’s numbers catch 16 more balls for 248 more yards)
2009 final projection: 85 Rec 1322 Yards 15.6 YPC
Coincidence? Matty C can’t throw the deep ball…if you can’t get it to Moss who can you get it to?
Randy Moss made Jeff George, Randall Cunningham and Daunte Culpepper all look like Hall of Famers…yet his numbers dropped off with our new QBOTF.
by Ryan in Nixa on Dec 16, 2009 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
If people would look at my comments...
They would realize that I am NOT hanging Cassel out to dry. I just want to get a good look at Croyle before his contract comes up. This season, he has played better than Cassel and the numbers CLEARLY support that fact. Before we release him to let him go to another team, I would like to see if he performs better than #7 so we can be certain that we are not releasing our best QB. That’s all. Besides, it wouldn’t hurt Cassel to spend a little time on the bench. look what it did for Vince Young.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions
Haven’t we had multiple seasons, training camp this year, and preseason to see Croyle, though?
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Not in this system.
In this system, with this team and this coach, Croyle has outperformed Cassel. if you look at the numbers, they support my argument.
The only way to really, honestly compare the two is by looking at this year. Right now, Croyle is the better QB. His play on the field supports that as do his stats.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Gotcha. Think that was our argument above. I guess we’ll just have different opinions even though I’m an “arguer”
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
LOL!
Nothing but love brother. We are all in this together.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
What about the most important number, W/L record?
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
I'll admit this about Croyle.
The guy is on the receiving end of some bad luck. But he’s had several starts for this team (8-9 I believe), and he hasn’t won a game. He’s been hurt by injuries—that’s bad luck and has nothing to do with his skills, I know. But how does one respond to bad luck?? “Sucks to be you, kid.”
And if you remember, Croyle WAS a backup before he was given the starting job (and was given the starter tag out of necessity because he was all that was left), so there have now been two coaching staffs that agree that Croyle should not be the #1
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
You lost...
me when you said the numbers CLEARLY support the fact that Brodie is better. The QB position is different than any other. When you bench Cassel you are telling him that he is not our guy. Screw that, we can lock up Croyle with a cheap 1 year tender since he is going to be a RFA.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Dec 16, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions
Sometimes a little time on the bench can be good for a QB.
Donovan Mcnabb played better after getting benched last year and Vince Young has REALLY played better. It might be good for Cassel. If he really is the fighter that everyone says he is, then it would benefit him as well.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions
Its just not a good...
idea. You think Croyle is going to come in and magically throw for 4 TDs and 300 yards with no picks. Let him compete in training camp next year. We shouldn’t even be arguing about this because it will never happen. I would bet my life savings Haley doesn’t bench Cassel before the end of the season.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Dec 16, 2009 1:25 PM CST up reply actions
You are probably right about that but...
It doesn’t mean he shouldn’t.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
How many games has Brodie Croyle won while starting for the Kansas City Chiefs.
Anyone? Anyone?
There’s a stat that I’m pretty sure about.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Again, you are arguing about something based on past seasons.
Apples and oranges.
Tell me this, do you really think it’s fair to compare a Herm Edwards offense to the NE Patriots? That is exactly what you are doing. I knew from the first week that Edwards coached the Chiefs that he knew NOTHING about offense. He took our #1 offense in the league and ran it right into the ground.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions
This year: Croyle = 0 , Cassel = 3
And we should have 5 wins this year (Raiders 1st meeting and Dallas, where CASSEL lead us to score a go ahead touchdown which ended up in overtime)….but I know its not cool to talk about the coulda, shoulda, woulda…so why are we giving Croyle this treatment?
Group hug! :) lol … this has been a good discussion.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
Yup, it has been fun.
I’m about done here though.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Dec 16, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions
and that's legit 1970...your allowed to want that. After the way Cassel has played
you have every right to doubt him. Keep the faith.
Here's my reply kray (and I appreciate the candor...it's fun to argue sometimes and we're all fans whether we agree or disagree)
1. Ben R. – Steelers. Once again, when people talk about the top 5 QB’s, his name hardly shows up. But he has a strong defense that keeps him in games and their style of football, by design, is to be low scoring.
2. You would not pick Cassel, but that’s not the point. All of them would get murdered. Look at how long Peyton and Brees have to throw. I literally watched a Saints game and counted to 15 before Brees let go of a pass. He absolutely could not do that here. They would be flashy bandaids on large bleeding gashes. We have way more problems on both sides of the ball. It would be just like we did to Cassel— we didn’t put him in a position to succeed this year.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
true about big ben..i think he's awesome
but he does stay alive where other QB’s would get destroyed!
Well, can't you give Cassel some credit for being tough too?
He’s gotten the bleep kicked out of him this year. But he keeps coming back for more.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
First of all...
Russell has never had a good season in the NFL. Cassel has and I think that the fact he NEVER started a college shows that this guy is extremely raw still and has tremendous upside. Tom Brady wasn’t even TOM BRADY until that undefeated season. Even when he was winning superbowls people gave more credit to those defenses than Tom. He had like an average QB rating below 90 during those glory years. His story is similar in that he was a raw talent coming out of college. I’m not saying Cassel is going to be Brady, but jesus man you can’t write him off after this season. That would be stupid if you look at league history. Mark Twain had a great quote, “history doesn’t repeat itself, but it sure as hell rhymes.”
by I_Bleed_Red. on Dec 16, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions
Kray:
1.) You’re hog tying us by specifically saying dynasty. Right now KC just wants to be a contender again. Elite QBs don’t come along very often, and teams like the 80’s Niners and 2000’s Patriots got lucky because they were able to land an elite QB. We can contend without an elite QB. Look at the Ravens. And the Bucs. And the Bears. All of those teams either won or participated in a Super Bowl with average QBs at the helm.
2.) Well we can’t just magically pick a top 5 QB at will and have him come to our team. You have to go out and get the best of what’s available. Cassel was obviously the best available QB. You can argue that we could have drafted one, but even by your own argument we still wouldn’t have had a top 5 QB. Sanchez and Stafford fail your standard. So would Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco. Tell you what though. If you can come up with a way to get Manning, Brady, Brees, Rivers or Roethlisberger to come play for KC, I’ll give your unreasonable level for the par acceptance for a Chiefs QB a fair shake.
My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:
"Shut the f--- up."
-Matt Cassel
"WHAT THE F---?!?!"
-Todd Haley
by Red N Gold Beast on Dec 16, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I understand where your coming from but I think you misunderstood me.
I’m not hog tying us. I want us to be a dynasty. Don’t we all? In order to get there you have to have a stellar QB. I know right NOW we are just trying to contend, but believe me Pioli’s goal is to become the next dynasty. It better be. That’s what every teams’ goal should be.
I’m thinking past the band aid quick fix mentality that has ruined us here in KC for so long now. Build your team like you intend to win the next 5 superbowls. You can’t build with an attitude of “who cares as long as we contend”. That’s all we’ve ever done here. don’t you guys want something more??
You have to stop thinking in contending terms and start thinking in elite sb winning terms. You are what you think and act like.
Of course we all want that.
But we have to start somewhere. As I said before, elite QBs don’t just grow on trees. Mannings and Bradys and Montanas and Youngs and Aikmans only come around once or twice a decade. The Chiefs would be incredibly fortunate to land one of these guys in their prime. But we need to be willing to understand that that is not likely. Until (AND IF) we luck out and get a future HoF QB, we have to play the cards that are dealt us.
Pioli acted in the Chiefs best interest by getting Cassel. He was the best proven QB available this offseason. Now let’s continue to build this team. Let’s get an OL. Let’s build an elite defense. Let’s upgrade our backs and receivers.
BTW, the mention of defense brings up another point…. the best dynasty in NFL history (the Steelers) wasn’t built with super-elite QBs. It was built on a stong, smash-mouth defense, and an efficient running attack. We can stil technically build a dynasty even with Cassel at the helm. But we need to continue to improve the entire team.
My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:
"Shut the f--- up."
-Matt Cassel
"WHAT THE F---?!?!"
-Todd Haley
by Red N Gold Beast on Dec 16, 2009 2:57 PM CST up reply actions
Let's see what...
Cassel had to work with this year.
1. Absolutely no running game in the first half of the year making our offense inept and predictable.
2. A receiving corp with one talent, who under preforms at his level, in D Bowe who missed 25% of the season. The rest are guys other teams didn’t want, or are extremely raw projects. Bradley, Wade, Long, Lawerence.
3. An inability to develop a rhythm due to penalties, drops, and a revolving door of personal changes. Also, not having a QB coach can’t help.
4. No real threat at TE to bail him out of all out blitzes like Thigpen had last year. (imagine would Tyler would have looked like last year without TG)
5. And a horrible offensive line, especially the interior which allows pressure up the middle. The worst kind of pressure a QB has to deal with.
Now that being said Cassel isn’t flawless. He has obviously made mistakes this year, but I ask you what QB hasn’t? Whether you all like it or not he is our guy at least till the end of next season. If things haven’t gotten better than you can bitch all you want.
Seriously. This is getting old.
Cassel has proven that he can be a good QB on a good team. As a Chief he is lacking the support group that he had in NE. A good QB coach. Top tier WRs. A good OL. A good defense. That’s what the goal is guys. We shouldn’t expect Cassel to be a good QB on a bad team. We should expect him to be a good QB on a good team. Why are we expecting him to succeed when we’re not giving him the tools needed to succeed? We aren’t giving him a fair shake. I’m not saying we shouldn’t criticize his play from week to week, but we need to be understanding enough that the talent level of this entire team isn’t good enough.
My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:
"Shut the f--- up."
-Matt Cassel
"WHAT THE F---?!?!"
-Todd Haley
by Red N Gold Beast on Dec 16, 2009 1:11 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Rec'd...simple and to the point.
I'm not a Cassel fan or a Tamba Hali Fan or a Jamaal Charles fan. I'm a fan of the Kansas City Chiefs.
This is really getting old.
Really. Let the kid develop in a SYSTEM — particularly one that’s been installed since the beginning of the offseason, you know, so Cassel can actually develop some semblance of a raport with his receivers, learn the playbook and terminology and actually own it as if it’s actually HIS offense, and not one that was installed as preseason is coming to a close.
And hopefully those receivers will have been in OTAs and training camp, have ALSO learned the system (that same one that was installed at the BEGINNING of training camp and OTAs), terminology, hot routes and checks so they and his QB can be on the same page.
And maybe, JUST maybe we’ll have an OLine that isn’t still trying to be upgraded 5 or 6 games into the season so Cassel isn’t getting sacked, hit and hurried 30 times a game.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
Can I ask, AP: Why all of the personal attacks here?
This is getting old, old, old. The subject isn’t—I’ve seen a lot of fruitful debate on this article and thread—but it seems that people’s patience with each other has, and that’s sad.
Aren’t we all Chief fans, who all want an NFL title in KC?
“Let the Raider fans boo [each other]. We’re better than that.” (modification mine)
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
Just cause a percentage is twice as much doesn’t mean anything. We don’t throw anywhere as much as the patriots did last season.
Last season, Cassel had 516 attempts. 5% were dropped or 25.65 drops.
Cassel has 214 attempts this season. 9% were dropped so taht’s 19.26 drops.
I’m sure we’ll end up with more drops than last year by the end of the season, but still, it’s not twice as much. The larger amounts with less attempts isn’t a good thing either way though.
After TrInt Greens first season I was screaming bloody murder to get him out of there, and lo and behold, he became a franchise QB. I’m not going to make the same mistake and am willing to look at this season as growing pains, and hope that he can turn into the player we all know he can become next season. sometimes QB’s click right away with their new team (i.e. Jeff Garcia), and sometimes they need an adjustment period (i.e. Matt Hasselbeck).
by Topchief1 on Dec 16, 2009 5:20 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
Just like Green, Cassel has proven that he can be a good QB in the NFL. What he does in KC for teh long term remains to be seen.
Very wise to not make the same mistake twice… because in reality even if you did scream for Cassel to be replaced until your face turned blue, it’s just not going to happen this year or next year.
My sentiments are likely to be summed up with one of these 2 quotes:
"Shut the f--- up."
-Matt Cassel
"WHAT THE F---?!?!"
-Todd Haley
by Red N Gold Beast on Dec 16, 2009 5:53 PM CST up reply actions
Getting a little feisty in here, fellows...
Everybody tone it down a bit….we are the same team…
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
Sorry, Woody. I know I'm not helping.
The conversation has been had. We have our views, and I think we’ve all expressed the same ones over and over. This discussion is healthy over the course of several games or an offseason, but getting into the same arguments in different threads every other day for the past three weeks isn’t doing any good for the community.
I’ll attempt to bow out of further discussion until after the season is over. It might do us all some good, as it won’t change much right now.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Dec 16, 2009 10:10 PM CST up reply actions
Yea, man...
It’s not really gonna stop until they get proven wrong…and Cassel doesnt have the weapons to succeed in that regard, currently….
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
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