Is Cassel worth $40 million?
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:03 PM CST
Email
Print
QB Matt Cassel and his passing numbers continue to open eyes for all the wrong reasons after 11 games. His 77.6 passer rating ranks No. 22 in the league and he ranks No. 20 or lower in every category except touchdown passes (tied-16th) and interceptions (tied-11th). His average gain of 5.93 yards ranks No. 29 among starting quarterbacks. Only Kerry Collins, Brady Quinn and JaMarcus Russell rank lower. (Yahoo! Sports)
Cassel and the Chiefs worked out a six-year deal that will pay him in excess of $10 million a season. The contract will keep Cassel with the Chiefs until 2014. The deal is for $63 million, with $28 million guaranteed. He's going to make $40.5 million in the first three years of his contract.
Here's my take on Matt after watching 11 games this season wearing #7:
Cassel's positives: Gutsy and seemingly a fighter, obviously not very injury prone, good leader, surprisingly mobile, throws well on the run, average accuracy on the short and itermediate routes.
Cassel's Negatives: Extremely tentative decision maker, holds on to the ball longer than most QB, average arm strength, real accuracy problems deep. One more thing is that - he's not showing much trust in his receivers (though that may be a Haley-thing for making the WR position a revolving door)
Any chance Pioli may draft a QB in 2010? I may not be giving up on Cassel necessarily by wanting to draft a QB but I like the QB crop coming in 2010 draft. Problem with Cassel's play this year is that we're all pointing fingers at the o-line but what if he performs the same with an upgraded o-line? I just hate the fact that if it takes more than 2 seasons to evaluate if Cassel's worth franchise money, it may cost the Chiefs a chance to dabble at a potential franchise QB in 2010. Or when we are convinced that we do need a franchise QB from the draft in 2011, the QB crop may not be as good?
I know it may pre-mature to think of drafting a QB since we need much more such as O-line, NT, FB, S, WR, TE and a viable RB that could spell Charles if not be the starter. The good thing is - at the beginning of this season I thought that our LBs were the weakest, but I like what Mays, Studebaker, Hali, Demorio and Belcher (though we know Javon can't cover TE's ie. Antonio Gates) have done.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
113 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
limited options on your poll there
quite the negative slant, I was looking for the
“Cassel IS the franchise guy, just need to build around him” option…
He’s got the tools to be a great QB… I believe he’ll be worth every penny of this contract and maybe even a 2nd deal/extension.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
true
you could have selected the option:
We already paid him, let’s ride it out.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:10 PM CST up reply actions
I chose "willing to wait 2 yrs"
I will admit that he needs to improve and develop over the next couple of years, along with the team around him.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers
by stagdsp on Dec 1, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Was thinking the same thing
Can we forget about the money already? It is an average contract for a starting QB in the league. Let’s get over it already. The guy is throwing to receivers who weren’t even in freaking training camp!
Chambers
Long
Wade
for God’s sake. I am not saying Cassel is perfect but he has won more games than Croyle and Thigpen combined. Bob Gretz said to me today in an email “Certainly
even an inconsistent Cassel is better than Croyle/Huard/Thigpen.” I tend to agree with that statement.
If an Assclown like Jamarcus Russel can get a couple of seasons to prove his worth than I think Matt deserves the same treatment in KC. He has shown he can play well on a good team and he is still very young so let’s get the guy a good team and see what he can do!
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 1, 2009 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
No Vote That Really Fit My Beliefs
I think he’s a reasonable investment for what the Chiefs gave him (roughly $10 million per) and that he’s performed adequately all things considered, but that the Chiefs absolutely need to get him more support this offseason. That o-line cannot be ignored for another year.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Amen brotha.
He certainly has the most potential of any QB we have had since Trent. There aren’t many guys out there who would have been able to ride in to KC this season and make us a playoff contender.
He needs work, sure, but so does the entire team.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Dec 1, 2009 2:14 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed.
He’s not making elite-QB money, so why should we expect an elite QB? He’s a game manager, that really we signed for three years on two years worth of franchise-tagging. At worst he can be cut in year 3 if he turns out to be worse than expected (which I doubt. He worked out well in NE, so why should that change in KC?)
If you only knew...
Exactly
If you think making $10 million a year is not elite, then what is? I like Trent 100x better than what Cassel has shown in year 1 and Trent was making around $5-6 million in year 1.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions
Your comment leaves me scratching my head wondering if you agree or disagree
but i’m going to address more in UC’s post below yours.
If you only knew...
neither
If you think he is getting paid elite type money, then I think he is not worth that kind of money based on what i’m seeing of him. so the answer to poll would be “willing to wait 2 years and see”
but
if you think that $10 million isn’t elite type money, then I disagree because you don’t need to pay that kind of money for a game manager-type QB who doesn’t make many mistakes.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
He is a Trent Difer type of QB who will be a good manager of the game but is never going to light up the stat catagories. I would rather have a gun slinger like Green and live with the bad decisions. I really wanted Dilfer when we got Green so I can say Trent changed my opinion of what I want as a KC QB.
However I voted should have let him play out Franchise Tag deal. However Pioli and Haley both have made it obvious that they are with Cassel so NO we will not draft a QB in this years draft.
C'mon
trent threw 24 interceptions in his first year and that team had alot more talent on offense than this one
10 million a year isnt alot for your most important player on your team, i would say yeh its a little above the avg starting QB, but thats what were gonna have to do in KC is overpay players.
What he means is...
$10 million per year is in line with the top 10-15 paid QBs. It’s nothing special. It’s not really on anyone’s radar anymore, to be honest.
You look at $40 million in the first three years as a bad thing….I look at $20 million over the last three years as a great thing.
He Makes Elite QB Money
He’s a top ten QB in terms of salary. But the contract is actually front-loaded so we’re not tied to the guy really for more than a couple of years.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
For one,
he was due $15 million for this season alone. Had he done well this season, he would have wanted MORE, or he would have been franchised again for more money. So they took a gamble on a guy that played pretty good and progressed throughout the last season.
However, I can’t find any concrete data on QB salaries for the ‘09 season. Brady’s contract was for six-years, $60 million deal that runs through 2010… obviously signed in ’04… after he won 2 superbowls (or was it 3 by then? none-the-less, I digress)
$60 million for a quarterback in the year of the $100 million dollar men seems alright to me… I certainly don’t think Eli Manning is $40 million better than Matt Cassel.
If you only knew...
His contract is not "elite".
Before you snap look at recent contract extensions and not guys playing under old deals.
David Garrard- 7 years 60 million
Jake Delhomme- 5 years 42.5 million
Tony Romo- 6 year 67 million
Marc Bulger- 6 year 65 million
Eli Manning- 6 year 97.5 million
Phillip Rivers- 6 year 93 miilion
He is not being paid as an elite QB, he is being paid as a middle of the road QB (although I would say that the amount that a middle of the road QB makes is sickening). I think his contract is about right. I am not totally sold on Cassel, but I would certainly rather have him than Bulger, Garrard, Delhomme, and I think even Romo. QB’s are not cheap.
Hold the phone...we got Mr. Crawford on-line...hahaha
There is only a couple of sane people like us around here….Everyone else is lost in make believe fairy dust or something…..smoke the red and gold bud, or get drunk off kool-aid. I will give the straight up answer, and so will you, sometimes is stings and sometimes its great…
I'm a 'tweener in this poll
I’m somewhere between riding it out and waiting two seasons. I figure KC has paid dearly for him in picks and salary, so they might as well see what he can do. I think he’ll be adequate.
Really, QB is most often the limiting factor in any team’s success. If Cassel doesn’t end up being the limiting factor for KC, that’s enough.
I see your point
IMO – I like to see KC get a true winner and stud QB. I don’t need another Trent Green or Elvis Grbac or Steve DeBerg. Those were very good QBs but were not a QB that can take us to the promise land.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:24 PM CST up reply actions
Trent Was Probably Good Enough To Win It All
He just had a very short window, though, and the team’s defense was too wretched to hold a lead.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
by UCrawford on Dec 1, 2009 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thats exactly it
Its not that the defense were crappy but at that time, so much was invested in the O-line and Trent and Priest.
Roaf + Shields + Weigman + Trent + Priest = 70% of Chiefs salary…
ok..fine I exaggerated with 70% but you know it was up there. Now if we were to spread out the money better to have a true all around team, I would say paying $68 million to a QB with little to no experience is not a smart thing, wouldn’t you say?
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions
Thats how the NFL is these days
with how crazy the draft is and free agency
sanchez got the identical 63 million for five years, at least cassel had some exp and learned from one of the best and we got hi for an extra year for the same price
Absolutely
It was tough watching our high powered offense that we had in those years where and still wonder if 30 points would get it done.
cassell is fine, definetly not the problem
In fact, a lesser quarterback (Croyle or Huard) probibly wouldnt have survived this long…They would have strained a nipple. Cassel needs a running game (starts to look okay) , a center who can snap the ball ( hopefully FA, not a draft pick), and some continuity (i know i spelt that wrong) between the tackles and guards. He has the tools and i said before he’s been garage kept…..on hope he doesnt lose the confidence in his play until we can get him some tools to help.
missing the point
This is not about bashing or blaming Cassel for Chief’s record but if Cassel is worth that kind of money?
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:22 PM CST up reply actions
Of course he's worth the money
He’s accurate and makes good decisions…pretty difficult qualities to pick up off the street. In another couple seasons he should be a top 5-to10 QB (once some offensive continuity has been established.)
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
Yes he is.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
Missing poll option...
-Chiefs got hustled. Should have kept Thigpen
Thats what I would have voted for…
I'd rather die on my feet than be living on my knees
lol
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
read my keys to the franchise post. it talks about
how cassels Qb rating is actually alo better than it appears. When not under pressure he has like an 86 wb rating. not bad at all. gotta protect your investment. wtff
i see all your point here
The franchise money is rather significant here because:
1. If Cassel did not garner such money, Pioli might be looking to draft a QB in 2010
2. They may have inserted Croyle in to see how he does
3. And we would not be discussing this topic
Paying that kind of money for a young QB drafted high in the 1st or 2nd round based on his potential and numbers from college is a common thing in the NFL. But paying franchise type money for a 7th rounder with hopes he can become a top-tier QB is not the norm. Bulger (6th RD), Delhomme (undrafted), Aaron Brooks (5th RD) were all given big contracts after 2-3 seasons of putting up great stats. Bulger, Brooks, Delhomme were all college starters too.
I believe Mark Brunell was probably the only QB drafted in late rounds (5th rd) that was given franchise-type money with little to no NFL experience and made it work for the expansion Jaguars.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:21 PM CST reply actions
i heard and iam sure iam not the only one...
but it was said that with Rivers and E. Manning coming into contract years, it was geneous to get Cassell at that rate before the price of qb’s went up
That's what I was thinking.
If he turns out to be very good, he’s already locked in for 6 years. If he’s Jamarcus terrible, the Chiefs rolled the dice and lost $15 million. Much higher rate of return on a loss than say a JaMarcus Russell.
If you only knew...
But they didn't even roll the dice JaMarcus style
If you put JaMarcus on the Pats, does he win 11 games? Doubt it, but we don’t know, which is the key.
We knew Cassel had the skills to play in the league (on a great team at least) and that’s more than you know about any other rookie QB.
IF the Chiefs draft a QB in 2010
it will be a 6th or 7th round pick…looking for another Brady-like diamond in the lower rounds…even then, I think the chances of that are low. 11 games with a crappy offensive line and a revolving door WR corps is no reason to start jumping ship…once the team is built around him, he may look like a great bargain in 2011 or 2012
The thought of McCoy or Bradford in red makes me gag.
Bradford makes Brodie look durable.
"What?!?! I aint no Obama for the weed!"
-Turk McBride
You must be made aware that
in 2001, the same was said about some Purdue QB named Drew
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:44 PM CST up reply actions
pfft he looked rubbish last night
He held on to the ball too long and then all he did was throw long bombs.
Blame my wife!
Waiting until August 2010
lol
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
:)
NO you did not.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 3:29 PM CST up reply actions
That was because of size
Bradford and McCoy have good size, but they have relatively weak arms for a first round QB. Their big pluses as that they are accurate and they have won a lot of games.
Yes, it is worth it.
And I believe he’s more in the top 12-15 of contracts. I could be wrong of course. It’s unfathomable to most how someone could throw so many interceptions in just 11 games, but Cutler has hit the 20 mark. Can you imagine the people screaming for Cassel’s head if that were him?
I think he’s had absolutely no help (revolving door players, constant offensive game plan changes), that has kept him from having success. I’ve been very impressed with him, all things considered. I think the Trent Green comparison is apt. He can do some things if he has a team around him — just watch his Patriots games last year.
I did not vote because there was not a choice I felt was accurate.
I would have voted for “His contract was about right and we will wait and see how it works out”
He's not worth it.
and Pioli could and should have waited to see if he was. This is a big mistake being made bigger by not admitting it.
Are you the only one seeing what I'm seeing?
This is a big mistake being made bigger by not admitting it.
Totally what my thoughts were.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
Other $10 million/year and above guys:
Mark Sanchez
Marc Bulger
Tom Brady
Donovan McNabb
Matt Ryan
Drew Brees
Peyton Manning
Ben Roethlisberger
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Stafford
Carson Palmer
David Garrard
Tony Romo
Philip Rivers
Eli Manning
Brett Favre
Aaron Rodgers (I think)
So, yeah, the contract is pretty normal.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 1, 2009 3:25 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
cassel4prez mentioned this earlier in the thread, but here's a little more info
Trent Green during his first season completed 56.6% of his passes, averaged 236 yards/game, had 17 TDs to 24 INTs (causing Whitlock to dub him Tr"int" Green), and had a QB rating of 71.1.
Cassel through 10 games has completed 55.6% of his passes, averaged 190 yards/game, has 13 TDs to 7 INTs, and has a QB rating of 77.6.
Green already knew Vermeil’s system coming in and certainly didn’t have to learn a new system one week before the start of the season. He also had a fantastic offensive line and the best TE and RB in the history of our team. The completion percentages are about the same, Green did better in yards, Cassel has a better TD to INT ratio. Green went on to have 4 straight pro bowl caliber seasons after that year. I’m sure if AP was going strong then there would of been a bunch of posts about how Green wasn’t the guy during that first transition year. At the very least Cassel deserves another season to see what he can do when given a little consistancy and hopefully a better o-line.
Feeling "The Love" and "Drinking the Kool AId"
I understand your comparison to Trent
But in 2003 when Trent threw all those INTs, I commanded that for that he has that gunslinger mentality a QB needs whereas Matt is more like a game manager – playing not to loose as oppose to playing to win. Matt seem tentative and is hesitant at times. You can see in his eyes when they playback in slow-motion how he escapes the pocket / protection pre-maturely – hence he does not trust his o-line. There seem to be a panic everytime he don’t see his primary WR open and he starts scrambling, many times missing the 2nd and 3rd option. He would almost always eat the damn ball (take a sack) then throw an INT because he lacks arm strength to sling it in to tight spaces. I don’t know but thats just what I’ve seen of him. I don’t care about his INTs or the Chiefs record. I am more concern about his poor decision making skills. Again, like many, we all have our opinions but I hope I am wrong about Matt.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 6:12 PM CST up reply actions
Valid points for sure
I think the reason I still believe is because Cassel has shown that ability to make the big play and get it done at the end of games. If Haley can get Cassel to play the entire game like he does the final 2 minutes I think he can be a very good franchise QB. He’ll never be a Manning or Brees elite guy, but I think he has the upside to be in the second tier with guys like Big Ben and Rivers. I could be wrong, but I think it would be crazy to not at least see what the guy can do when he has a second year under Haley with a better o-line and consistant WRs that he can build a relationship with.
Feeling "The Love" and "Drinking the Kool AId"
58, That lack of trust for the o-line
is the result of him being conditioned to count to 1.327 and then getting the hell out of there. Awful o-line play early this season forced him to adapt to the situation. Now I noticed last game that he has more time in the pocket, but he’s gonna have to actually get used to that and know that on a more consistent basis he can count to maybe 2.64 instead.
I will say this though, he does seem to hold on to the ball too long waiting for the perfect opening for a WR. That’s a pot of gold when playing the good defenses in the NFL. I wish sometimes he would just man up and sling the ball a few times in some tight spots. INT’s are a part of the game. I’m not saying I want to see him turning the ball over all the time, but I almost want him to face his fear now so he won’t play so afraid of the INT in the future….
by Hail2DaChiefs on Dec 2, 2009 8:14 AM CST up reply actions
I think he's OK
But I don’t think we are going to go anywhere with him. Why does he need 2 years to develop? He’s not a rookie, he’s sat behind some great QB’s in Palmer and Brady; if he doesn’t yet “get it” I don’t think he ever will. To me, his biggest flaws are accuracy and decision making. At this point in his career, I don’t think he’s going to get much more accurate; his motion and technique are what they are by now. As for his decision making, I hope he can improve, but I doubt it. He threw behind the same O-line that Brady does and Brady doesn’t take the massive amount of sacks that Cassel did last year. To me, he’s a great back-up, but he’s a second tier starter. I don’t hate him, but I don’t have nearly the confidence in him that a lot of people do. I hope I’m wrong.
Second that
To me, he’s a great back-up, but he’s a second tier starter. I don’t hate him, but I don’t have nearly the confidence in him that a lot of people do. I hope I’m wrong
Pistol, I hope I’m wrong too. Unlike many of the other fans, I agree 100% with your take. Cassel has studied more than any other young QB playing behind two incredible QBs (Palmer and Brady) Coached by one of the best in Belichick and to think he needs another year or two to be ready? I think he is what he is. With his poor decision making and lack of accuracy will come down to haunt us in games that really counts in the near future (when the team does come around and we have the O-line). Again, I hope I am wrong but Pistol makes an excellent point by saying that he will not see a QB improve in those categories (accuracy + decision making). If he was to improve, we would have already seen that.
To me his tendency to hold on to the ball is due in part to = lacking in decision making skills
Poor accuracy = limited skills in anticipating where his receivers will be thus throwing the ball to a designated spot before a receiver is open
Sack tendency = he is hesitant and is more concern about avoiding INTs vs making a play
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 6:04 PM CST up reply actions
To me his tendency to hold on to the ball is due in part to = lacking in decision making skills
Poor accuracy = limited skills in anticipating where his receivers will be thus throwing the ball to a designated spot before a receiver is open
Sack tendency = he is hesitant and is more concern about avoiding INTs vs making a play
Sounds like a guy with not much experience, not much time with his receivers, and no o-line. Oh wait, that is what he is. If these are what you’re basing your opinion of him not being worth the money then you have pretty ridiculous expectations of a still-new starter on a shitty team.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
What about
His years in NE? He had plenty of time behind that o-line and he played with Moss/Welker, and he was still the most sacked player in the league. His numbers weren’t much better than the league average last year, but he played on a team with much better than league average players. I don’t understand why he can’t make quicker decisions than he does. seriously, you can’t argue with the fact that he’s been in the top 2 for sacks given up two years in a row now with two seperate teams. BTW, Brady was nowhere near that the year before he got hurt or this year. It’s Cassel, not the line. Like I said before though, I hope I’m wrong.
His YEAR in New England, you mean. You just happen to ignore that the Super Bowl Champion Pittsburgh Steeler’s starting quarterback was only one sack behind Cassel. I’m not sure I’m understanding why, especially at this point in his career and behind this line, the number of sacks he takes is an indication of him being a bad QB.
How many of those sacks are coverage sacks due to the recievers’ inability to get open? How many of them are because he had 0.8 seconds before a LB was down his throat? He hasn’t exactly had a huge pocket to work with or much room to escape when he can’t find anyone down field.
He has shown that he isn’t prone to making bad decisions. Quite a few of his picks were tipped balls and a couple have just been great plays on the part of the DB. It takes time on the field for a guy to be able to make decisions like Tom Brady or Peyton Manning, but Cassel has shown that he isn’t going to make many mental errors like Russell.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Dude
A tipped ball is a bad pass. Whether or not it happens at the line of scrimmage is irrelevant. If it was tipped, it either shouldn’t have been thrown or was thrown poorly. I didn’t say he makes bad decisions, I said he doesn’t make them quickly. He had a great line last year and still led the league in sacks (Pitt’s line obviously blows- we were able to get significant pressure on Ben. They won the superbowl because Ben overcame that. weakness.). BTW, Cassel had 4 years to learn behind the best in NE. He didn’t start, so what? You are supposed to be learning while you are sitting so that you are ready to go when the time comes. The guy is all ready 27 years old. Are we treating him like a rookie? So we are saying he is going to be 30 by the time time we start treating him like a veteran? I don’t buy it, given his time in NE, he should be able to read defenses and make quick/solid decisions by now, and I don’t think that he can.
Have you watched the Steelers? They could have the best line in the league and Roethlisberger’s going to take quite a few sacks. The guy holds on to the ball forever in order to try to make something happen. The difference is his receivers know how to get open and he knows that because he’s been working with the same guys for more than one season.
He had 4 years to learn by watching. You’re contending that there is no difference between watching from the sideline and actually getting in the game. Give me a break. And we aren’t treating him like a rookie. He is already better than a rookie. But there are certain aspects that aren’t developed by watching or by practicing with the second team.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
He played
a full season last year, and from all account he studies film very hard. Why can’t he get the ball out sooner? He didn’t do it last year, and he had a good O-line, he certainly isn’t doing it this year! Dwayne Bowe, Lance Long, and Chris Chambers are three decent receivers. They aren’t spectacular, but then again neither are NO’s receivers, the Vikings’ receivers aren’t spectacular either, but their QB’s are. My point is, good/great QB’s make up for talent gaps on the O-line or in their receiving corps, mediocre QB’s don’t. Nothing that Matt Cassel has shown me this year screams, “this guy is the guy.” Everything that I’ve seen so far says, “he’s a hell of a backup.”
don't want to sound like a jerk, but...
WHO CARES!
It’s not our money! We’re under the cap, professional athletes make a lot of money and i’d much rather have him than a 1st rd rookie QB.
and yes, I think he’s worth it; he has the intangables that help make a great QB; leadership, toughness, work ethic, leads game winning drives. I think he will be good to great in the near future when we get it all together as an organization.
It's not that
You’re asking who cares about the money Chiefs pay him? INdeed we shouldn’t care because it’s not our money BUT
because of the money we pay or invest (the future) in a QB, we are somewhat tied to this QB regardless and must sit thru the growing pains of figuring out if he is indeed the guy or wait until he makes progress or until the contract expires without having the ability to sign or draft another QB that may have given us better chance to play in the big game.
All in all, its about what we fans have been waiting for – a SUPERBOWL. So if over-paying a QB that somewhat over-achieved in 2008 could hinder the teams ability to focus on getting a true franchise QB because MUCH is already invested in this one. Thats why I care. I prefer to not wait for another 10 years or 5 years to come to a conclusion that we need to rebuild and find a franchise QB.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 1, 2009 6:18 PM CST up reply actions
I will seriously write hate letter to the chiefs if we draft a QB in the first round...
there are SO MANY holes that we dont even have a DECENT starter in…at least cassel can be good if not great….
Cassel
Is surely worth his contract. A couple draft picks on the OL, and maybe a TE; and the Chiefs offense will be plenty good.
The main hole in my opinion is the pass rush and the safety position.
Yo 58...
Who’s the hottie in your avatar?
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
You Like ?
What is’t? Lips or the Hair?
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Not really the the lips so much. A bit too goth for me Lol
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Yes, he is worth it...
It is not an above-average price by any stretch for an NFL QB…
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
I don't care about the money. At all. I care about winning.
Cassel may improve. It’s not out of the question. but he is very inconsistent. He misses on a lot of throws. A lot. Now you have to know this. You all watch the same games I do. You hear the commentators picking on his inaccuracy. You see ball bouncing off helmets.
You have to know the Chambers bomb was completely underthrown. It could have been picked off against Polamalu. The Charles pass was underthrown. Horribly. He hit Engram on the helmet in the end zone. It’s every game. He misses a lot. That’s not good enough for me.
I want a Brady, a Favre, an Elway, a Manning. Don’t you? I hate it that we all are so willing to accept average play. Why? Why not set the bar higher? Why not? You think he’s so good then why didn’t they Pats keep him? Wake up now. Thinking caps people. If he was THAT good, Hoodie would have no way no how let him go. You wont’ see the backup QB in Philadelphia lookin’ for work. And he’s backing up a superstar QB in McNabb. Why? Simple, he’s awesome.
I never understood that move to begin with.
There is a salary cap in the NFL
that is why the Pats didn’t keep him. He was a free agent. The Pats franchised him & guaranteed him about $15 million for this season, but in order to keep him they would have had to let several good players go in order to keep under the cap. They would have been idiots to keep him.
He led the Pats to an 11-5 record last year. Brady has led them to a 7-4 record this year. He is NOT a bad quarterback.
Yes, everyone would love to have a Brady, a Favre, an Elway, a Manning, a Montana…etc. If you can tell me who will be that QB in 3 years, with certainty, then please channel that info to Pioli along with your guarantee. You can’t do that because nobody knows what will happen in the future (obviously). And by the way, none of the guys you mentioned were spectacular their first few years in the league. If you know a way to trade for a HOF QB just entering his prime then please let us know how it’s done ;)
Sorry, I just think your expectations are unrealistic.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
Whoa
Did you just compare Brady to Cassel and imply that because the Pats are 7-4 right now that Brady isn’t much better?! Let’s look at the numbers here: Brady has thrown 20 td’s, 8 picks, completed 65.7% for 3286 yards, and has only been sacked 15 times and fumbled 4 times. Now let’s look at Matty C: 13 td’s, 7 picks, completed 55.6% for 1,898 yards, has been sacked 35 times, and fumbled 11 times, Hmmmm…. The only stat that Cassel has is 7 picks, but since he’s put the ball on the ground 11 times all ready, that’s pretty much moot. Brady didn’t even play in the preseason, looked like shit the first few games, and is still blowing Cassel out of the water. As for the sacks, don’t give me the “KC’s line sucks, and that’s why he’s been sacked 35 times” line. Granted, our line is very average, but Cassel led the league in sacks last year behind the same line that Brady is playing behind this year; it’s the QB!!! Just to prove the point that it’s not all the o-line’s fault, look at LJ vs. JC. LJ couldn’t do anything, but insert JC, and wow we are averaging over 4 ypc again- IT’S THE PLAYER NOT THE LINE!!
Why does everyone insist on giving Cassel a free pass because he didn’t start his first 4 years? The dude hasn’t started since high school because HE’S NOT THAT GOOD!!!
Thanks for the stats
My point was that Cassel can be a good QB with a good team around him…and he proved it last season with the same team that Brady is playing for now.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
Also
Where did I say anything about sacks? I didn’t. I don’t think the fact that he’s taken a lot of sacks is the reason the team is 3-8…I think the reason is a lack of talent across the board.
If Tom Brady were the QB of this team TODAY, what do you think the record would be? Maybe a couple more wins, right?
If 2nd year Tom Brady were the QB of this team, what do you think the record would be?
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
but Cassel led the league in sacks last year behind the same line that Brady is playing behind this year; it’s the QB!!!
Why are you so fixated on that? Is it really that big of a deal? I would rather him take a sack then try to force something (like a rookie would do) and throw another INT.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
I'm fixated on that
because it shows a lack of pocket presence. It’s a huge deal statistic, and very underrated. Sacks lead to fumbles which lead to turnovers. Is it any coincidence that our QB averages more than a fumble per game?? Sacks kill drives, they aren’t turnovers, but they lead to dead drives which kill us. Do you think there is a correlation between our third down failures and sacks??
+10
Sacks kill drives, they aren’t turnovers, but they lead to dead drives which kill us. Do you think there is a correlation between our third down failures and sacks??
Thats what I see every week with #7. People ask why the Chiefs are always in 3rd and very long? Exactly the point Pistol made. SACKS!
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 12:20 PM CST up reply actions
Also, your argument against me using Roethlisberger as a comparison for how meaningless it really was was that his line is terrible. If the problem is the OLine in his case, why isn’t it in our case?
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Ben
makes up for shitty line play. Matt C doesn’t. Ben keeps his head up while scrambling, Matt C ducks and tucks. There’s a huge difference between Matt and Ben, and if you don’t see it, then I don’t know what to say.
The huge difference comes from FIVE years of starting versus Cassel’s one. If you recall, people were all over Roethlisberger wondering if he was really a quarterback that could lead the Steelers back to the Super Bowl and now he’s considered one of the top tier QB’s in the game (I’m not calling him “elite”).
The “pocket presence” that you say Roethlisberger has that Cassel doesn’t is something he has developed. Give Cassel some time, and no, time watching film isn’t the same, and he may turn out to be the another good QB in the same style.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
Huh?
Dude, Ben won Rookie of the year and the Super Bowl his first year. Ben is also in the all time top ten for passer rating, yards per attempt, and completion percentage. Ben and Matt C aren’t even comparable. What has Matt accomplished since high school?
Not that it matters, but they won in his second year. If you’ll remember, he had a terrible game (9-21, 123 yds, 0 TD’s, 2 INTs). The defense won it for him.That is why there were questions about him up until last season. Matt hasn’t accomplished anything, but give the guy a freaking chance.
You’re all over him because he takes a lot of sacks. Big freaking deal. It’s not that meaningful if a team can win the Super Bowl despite their QB taking a lot of sacks.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
BTW
I NEVER said Ben has pocket presence, I said he can make up for mediocre pocket presence with his escapability, arm strength, and accuracy. I don’t think Cassel has the same abilities. Ben really is an exception to the rule, and is in my opinion, a special QB.
Second that
I said he can make up for mediocre pocket presence with his escapability, arm strength, and accuracy. I don’t think Cassel has the same abilities
When Ben scrambless – he’s looking for a WR to make route adjustments or open receivers
When #7 scrambless – he’s either looking to run for the 1st down himself or reacting to a panic after he looses sight of the primary receiver.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
well your right about the cap space jmc
but I think you can tell by watching your QB play ball. Cassel is not a rookie. He’s past the excuses stage. He’s a big boy now and he’s getting paid for it. This is not junior league. Excuses don’t cut it. There were signs about Favre and Elway and Montana that pointed to their potential. Cassel can’t throw the ball long. He just can’t do it. That takes away a whole dimension from your team threat.
No one has to cover deep passes against us. They just have to stay close. Cassel with underthrow it right to them. He’s not an accurate QB. I beg anyone to show me a single stat that says otherwise.
My bad
On the rookie Super Bowl thing, good catch. I posted somewhere on AP that MOST great QBs are pocket passers. Big Ben is definitely the exception to that rule because of his unique skill set. All I’m saying is that I don’t think Ben and Cassel are comparable that way because Cassel is obviously a pocket passer (at this point in his career). Eh, let’s agree to disagree. You think Matt C will pan out, I don’t, either way, we both love the Chiefs and hope that he does!
Pistol makes very good points
I got done reading all of your responses here and they are all good and valid IMO. I think a lot of the guys who aren’t seeing the stuff we’re seeing may be due in part to the fact they see the game live at Arrowhead thus lacking the insight of each play when the commentators break it down. I trust that you and I watch the QB’s play rather closely on TV and we have the benefit of playback and slow motion with the commentators input.
Also when the same fans watch their Local KC news playback or highlights that evening, those local sports guys are bias toward the hometown team. They seldom would show the QB’s bad play or poor decisions and almost never highlight his mistakes.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
It’s all good. In the end, they won’t be the same player or the same style. As others have said, I think Cassel will turn out more like Trent Green with some running ability. If Green would have had a good defense, which is what they are trying to build, he could have gone a lot farther. At this point I just think it’s completely unfair to base your predictions of Cassel on a statistic like Sacks.
If someone asks you if you want extra mayonnaise you have to say yes, cus that's part of it.
-Jared Allen
I'd agree, but
it’s not just sacks. You’re right, sacks don’t tell the whole story, look at Ben. However, Ben is near the top of the all time lists in some categories. Matt C does NOTHING well enough to be near the top, his sacks given up, completion percentage, YPA, TD-INT ration, fumbles, yards per rush are all middle of the pack or worse; in fact, the only one that is middle of the pack are his picks, but who cares when you’ve fumbled the ball 11 times!!
JComp
Nowhere in my posts show that I’m trying to prove Cassel is a lousy QB. All along I just wanted to see everyone else’s take on #7. Was it wise to pay #7 franchise type money even though he is not IT????
My problem is seeing how many fans here are willing to accept his mediocre to good play and say he is worth franchise type money. Best part of it is that let’s get him cheaper now (eventhough we are not sure if he is the man) and when he becomes the man, we’d tell ourselves we got him for cheaps when there’s like 2 years left in his contract. What sort of logic is that?
Is he a horrible QB – NO.
Is he really bad for this team – NO.
Is he a winner – Don’t know.
Is he worth $68 million – Definitely NO
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 12:47 PM CST up reply actions
I'm in Pistole Petes corner on this one.
Let’s hope you can taunt me after we win a superbowl. I would glady eat crow and crow shit if he turns out to be another drew brees. I would bathe in it. I would buy a crow. I would build a crow feeder in my living room. I would dress like a crow and eat myself.
I want to be wrong. I jumped up and down like a high school girl when I heard he was coming to KC. Now I just shake my head.
One Last thing
Ben makes up for his sacks with a top 5 (all time) yards per attempt at 8.1 yards per attempt. So, even though he gives up some sacks, he makes up for it with deep passes. Our problem is Matt gives up the most sacks in the league and is in the NFL’s bottom three in yards per attempt.
My bad again
Matt C is averaging 5.93 YPA, Ben is averaging 8.3 this year. That, combined with their completion percentages makes for a large difference that probably contributes to our 3rd down woes.
The thing I'll say about the Ben/Matt comparision:
Santonio Holmes and Hines Ward with a Heath Miller kicker beats the pants off of Dwayne Bowe, Chambers/Long/Bradley/Wade, and the even greater cycle at TE.
Ben gets a TON of help from Hines and Heath in the short passing game when he’s forced out of the pocket, and Holmes is awesome at taking short slants to the house. We’re lacking those things.
Now, I can’t say that Cassel’s YPA would go up 2.4 yards from having that, but I can say that it certainly helps Ben out.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
kalo I see your point. I've said as much myself.
But then reality set in. I watched him in every game as I’m sure you did. I can show you several passes that are thrown way off target in every single game this year. EVEN with time to throw. I mean on plays where the o line is having a solid moment.
He’s too sporadic. He’s not consistent. Ben is. Yes Aaron Rodgers and Ben have better receivers overall. But guess what? You look awesome when your QB is awesome. It’s hard to drop a pass from Drew Brees. Just sayin’. It’s a valid point.
Kray's nailed it with this
You know this receiver from S. Carolina – some guy who’s not named Jerry but shares the same last name with the greatest NFL wideout? Yeah. Since Sidney was drafted in 2007, there’s been moments of greatness showing up here and there but then he regresses. All of a sudden, some old dude who’s famous for endorsing Wrangler jeans show up – Mr. Sidney Rice suddenly becomes this amazing talent that the Vikes was hoping to get after drafting him in the 2nd RD in 2007. Exactly the point Kray made here
You look awesome when your QB is awesome.
Trent made Bowe look good, Huard too and god forbid Thiggy had moments with Bowe as well. But when it comes to #7, Bowe seemed ordinary to say the least. Remember Randy Moss in Oakland? For everyone else, he was 100% done. Then hoodie thought..dumbass Al doesn’t have a QB to throw to Moss. Lets trade for him. Moss was as bad as bad can be because he had mediocre to crappy QB’s throwing to him.
We should not use the excuse that #7 is bad just cuz the talent at wideouts are not good. Rather – an above average to good QB will make the average WR look like a stud.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 5:41 PM CST reply actions
And I won't dispute that QB's make WR's look good.
I like Cassel, and I think he’s not able to relax and play well (see: NE last year for an example of a more comfortable Matt Cassel) here in KC…yet. I think that’ll come with time. My YPA stat was to say that you’re comparing apples to oranges, not least of which is WR talent.
Yes Kray, I’ve seen him throw bad passes more often than I’d like here this year. However, I’ve seen him hit his WRs in the hands just to watch them fall to the ground a bunch, too. And 58, I also remember them writing off Moss in Minnesota, too. In his first year (while pouting), with a bad coach and attitude, he still put up 1,000 yards and 8 TD’s with a bad QB. His repellent to most teams was attitude, not ability. Welker and Moss helped Brady increase his performance by 1,300 yards and by 25 TD’s. As much as QB’s help WR’s, it does work the other way, too.
It’s not an “excuse”, as you’ve put it. He still makes bad throws and decisions more often than I’d like. But look at the list of guys making more than him. Stafford, Sanchez, Russell, and Garrard are lesser QB’s than Cassel (IMO) in decision making at this point. They all play for bad teams with lesser than average talent. Coincidence? I think not. Favre’s got a stud RB, awesome o-line, and fantastic defense. We don’t. He’s allowed more freedom with his offense because of it. Cassel’s not. Apples to oranges there, too.
Cassel’s not 100% to blame for his drop in performance from last year. He’s not blameless, either. However, for the amount of money he’s making over six years, I’d be hard pressed to find someone who do better for less. Cassel’s here for awhile. We’re going to build around him. Let’s let that happen before we start calling him a bust or not worth his paycheck.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
Point taken but
Cassel’s here for awhile. We’re going to build around him. Let’s let that happen before we start calling him a bust or not worth his paycheck.
He is not a bust in any means. Also you must define BUST. If at some point in the future whether KC cuts him and no other team picks him up – he is definitely a 100% Bust. If KC trades him in the future and he never is able to break into a starter for other teams – he is still BUST. But I am tired of waiting to see if he becomes that in 2-3 years. IMO – he is not a bust to that extend but if he becomes a Huard and career backup – then he is NOT WORTH his PAYCHECK thus somewhat of a mistake on Pioli’s part.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Dec 2, 2009 11:37 PM CST reply actions
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
