Chiefs S Mike Brown Does Not Look Like the Bears S Mike Brown
by Joel Thorman on Nov 8, 2009 5:47 PM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintBob Gretz of BobGretz.com is churning out stories as usual and he's got a few interesting quotes from Kansas City Chiefs S Mike Brown. There are quite a few of us who are pointing to Brown as part of the problem and not the solution. He's a known Todd Haley guy, someone the coach believes is the quarterback of the defense, and a familiar piece for Haley, but has been highlighted multiple times this season for the wrong reason.
When the Chiefs first signed him, and then following the release of Bernard Pollard in September, the rap on Brown by a lot of folks in the know was that he could still be a decent starter, if he were healthy.
"He looked like the Mike Brown of old, I mean a long ways back," a NFC head coach told Brad Biggs of the National Football Post after the Chiefs week one game against Baltimore. "I’m sitting there watching it and I’m saying to my assistant, ‘What a steal.’ He made some big hits and he was just all over the field. They used him at strong and they used him at free."
Two months later?
"I feel bad, I feel like I cost my team the game," Brown said today via Bob Gretz. "We only lost this game by three points. It’s easy to see if I had played a better game how we might be enjoying a win today, rather than another loss."
I think that's a fair statement from him. He's not backing down from his mistakes today but it's hard to ignore what he said. A better game by the 31 year old safety and the Chiefs might be talking about a win right now.
Kent Babb of the Kansas City Star said, "I'm just going to go ahead and say it: Mike Brown isn't getting it done."
Much more on Brown after the jump, including quotes on the two big plays he was responsible for today.
There were two major blunders from the safety spot in this game and Brown was in the middle of both of them.
The first came from Rashad Jennings. The Chiefs should be familiar with this rookie. The Liberty product was worked out by the Chiefs prior to the draft. He had nice numbers coming out of college and showed why in a 28 yard touchdown run this afternoon.
"I missed that one; I take responsibility for that," Brown said. "Those plays are things I cannot do if we are going to win … I had the opportunity to make the tackle and it didn’t happen."
Jennings was only in because Maurice Jones-Drew had lost his shoe on the play before it.
On the CBS halftime show, Shannon Sharpe had fun with the Jennings touchdown highlight. "Where's the safety? That's Mike Brown again. You'll notice a recurring theme: Mike Brown, touchdown, Mike Brown, touchdown...(laughs)."
The second big mistake came on a 61 yard touchdown pass from Jaguars QB David Garrard to WR Mike Sims-Walker.
Walker was wide open on a big touchdown grab. Brown was actually responsible for him but read something in the offensive alignment before the play and admittedly screwed up his assignment in the cover two the Chiefs were playing at the time.
Brown also had two big missed tackles in Miles Austin's career day a few weeks ago.
I've heard some folks chatter about someone, maybe Morgan, replacing Brown at SS. My opinion? Not gonna happen. Haley is a big, big fan of Brown and has, on multiple occasions, says he brings more to the team than what you see on Sundays.
I don't think Mike Brown will be replaced this season, though I understand there's beginning to be a argument that he should be.
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Is Brown your future? With the mistakes he's made...he needs to be cut. What counts in the NFL is what bring to the team on Sundays. do on Sundays..
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 8, 2009 6:00 PM CST reply actions
cut and replace him with who??
he made 2 mistakes, BIG mistakes but cmon we have no one to replace him with. Lets just hope he starts playing better.
unfortunately....
you’re right that there is no one to replace him…. but there is a guy in houston that has played pretty well, that was a chief at the start of the year
Anyone that takes better angles that this fool. He has cost us 2 games this year. 2 games is more win than they have. Cut this 'ucking piece of shit.
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 8, 2009 6:37 PM CST up reply actions
I agree. I just got back from the Saints-panthers game, and Im watching the game( I recorded it). I havnt been a fan of his all season, and I hope this game is reminds the Chief brass that brown ain’t gonna cut it.
by ChiefinSaintsland on Nov 8, 2009 8:51 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Pollard
For all of you “knowledgeable” fans that said BP was just a fair to middlin’ player,Today against the Colts,2 int’s..,9 tkls. & 3 assists.Anybody on the chiefs have a better day,as good,anything?Great move SP & TH.
John Soellner
Not really
He made a couple good plays in the box.
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Nov 8, 2009 6:23 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
All, I'm saying is year after year I watched that guy for the Chiefs
and I couldn’t’ wait to see him go. All he ever wanted to do was go for the knockout blow and was always beat on playaction. The only reason people were mad when he left was because he was a good special teams player.
You don’t know that if he was starting for the Chiefs that he wouldn’t look every bit as bad as Brown. The situtationj you are in has alot to do with your stats.
Mike Brown was good with Chicago, gained alot of glory from an awesome front line that forced bad passes and easy picks.
True
Pollard took PLENTY of shitty angles and missed tons of tackles over his time with us while going for the big hit. Brown played like absolute shit today, but I don’t miss Pollard. Congrats to him for having a good day, but he wasn’t good for us.
Sun shines on a dogs ass every now and again.
One good game doesn’t make him a probowler.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 6:23 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
One good game
makes him better than Brown.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 8, 2009 6:30 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Yep
I hated the move to release him then and I hate it now
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Not this year
but DaJuan Morgan should be the replacement at SS for next season. I only remember one whiff on him today, opposed to several on a weekly basis from Page and McGraw. Looking ahead to FS next year, OJ Atogwe, Nick Collins, and Antoine Bethea will be free agents…or another option is Eric Berry in the draft but I dont recall a safety ever being selected 2nd overall.
P.S. If anyone recognizes the name kc_radrh8r from cbssportsline threads, then you all remember that I screamed all of last year that Page was the safety who needed to go- not Pollard.
Morgan had more then one whiff....
He showed no tackling form the whole game. Im not saying he shouldnt start but he didnt do that much better then Brown. Out whole team is the problem. I would be willing to trade anyone for 3-5 round picks, besides a few guys, They could be got for first day picks though.
OHANA!
I'll have to watch the game again
But I really don’t recall Morgan missing any significant tackles. He had 6 on the game, which was second best on the team.
For Morgan
He probably deserves to start over Brown. Not necessarily because he’s good, but because he might actually get better with opportunity. Brown is unlikely to do so.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Yep
Morgan has waaay more upside than brown
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Ugh
Haley is a big, big fan of Brown and has, on multiple occasions, says he brings more to the team than what you see on Sundays.
Reason 65 why Todd Haley deserves to get fired. Everyone but him and his coaching staff apparently realize that Mike Brown’s play is a problem.
When your team is 1-7 and ranked in the bottom 10 in both offense and defense there’s nobody bringing more to the team than what you see on Sundays.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
And I'll Caveat That By Saying
That I liked Mike Brown when he was with the Bears. He was an outstanding SS (when healthy, of course). But the end comes for every player eventually and the end of Mike Brown’s career as a starter should be here.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Indeed....
Letting go of Pollard is looking more and more like the worst move this new brass has made (minus 60 million for a quarterback who never played a down in our uniform)
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
I Don't Think Anyone Would Do Much Better Behind The Chiefs' O-Line
They’re wretched.
I’d put cutting Pollard as the #2 screwup behind not throwing a blank check at Jason Brown.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
But you really acnt argue that Cassel's confidence level is dropping, and fast.
When he DOES have enough time to make a decent throw, he usually doesnt make it happen. The dude is getting scared of taking so many big hits, and it isnt his fault, but it is destroying what confidence he built up playing at the patriots.
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
I've Heard That Mentioned By Several Analysts
And I can’t say as I disagree with either them or you. He’s getting crushed out there and he hasn’t got a QB coach or offensive coordinator to help him through his problems.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
exactly
Haley is a WR coach, not a QB coach. Pioli may have fucked up his golden boy by allowing Haley the position of both those mentioned above and the head coach.
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Tough crowd
Completing 59% of his passes, for 260+ yards and 2 TDs with no INTs seems pretty good to me…especially around the terrible offensive line referenced above.
by Joel Thorman on Nov 8, 2009 6:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Today he was alright
But we were playing against the worst D line in the league in terms of pass rush and we STILL couldnt get any meaningful points until the last 10 mins of the 4th quarter.
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
We were playing one of the worst d-lines in the league
and almost every pass play was a jail break to the QB. Again.
When was he okay?
Sorry the game is 60 minutes and not just 6 minutes with 3 minutes of good play being when the game was already decided and Jacksonville’s defense was planning what bar to go to for their victory party.
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 8, 2009 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
yep
cassel hasn’t been perfect, but he has made some good plays… he’ll be a good QB
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
If He Survives
And that’s far from a given considering the state of the o-line.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
But damn, he is one TOUGH sunofabitch for it
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Yup
Most definitely. I still like the guy and think he’s an asset. I just think his coach and GM set him up for failure.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Just like Schaub was his first few years in the league
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Pretty Much
Although Schaub does have injury issues.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
But Schaub was a proven leader also
Cassel is most definately NOT a proven leader, just a proven backup
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
"Proven Leader"
Schaub was just a backup to Vick at the start of his career. Houston got lucky on him (and he still struggled to beat out Sage Rosenfels until last year).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Really?
Thought he was a 1st round pick? oh well…
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
I Don't Know Where He Was Drafted
He was traded from Atlanta to Houston shortly before Vick got suspended.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
No, I thought he was 1 overall
BIG asshat moment on my part. I must be thinking of Alex Smith
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Nope, it was Carr
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
You're Definitely Thinking Of David Carr
He was the #1 overall pick in Houston. Schaub was brought in to replace him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Yeah
And he was the starter from the day they drafted him, which was the point i alluded to of the GM and HC setting up the franchise qb for failure
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Yeah, They Did Him No Favors Either
That’s what a rotten o-line will do for your franchise QB.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Yup
I see Cassel already becoming a head-case behind our O-line. I think his psyche is in serious jeopardy.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
That seriously scares me
We gave him a 60 million contract without seeing what he would do on our team
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
We didn't give him 60 million
not that much of it is guaranteed.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:02 PM CST up reply actions
That's One Good Thing About It
We’re really only on the hook for two years of it.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I really dont get the hate over that contract.
Especially since we are so far under the cap. Not only that but even if Vrabel isn’t producing like Vrabel did in the past I really do think he brings intangibles to a team. I think he is similar to a player coach
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions
I Still Think We Got A Good Deal Out Of That Trade
It was the only move this offseason that’s really been good for this team.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Finally something we agree on.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions
It is a 60 million contract, yes?
But as Ucrawford pointed out, we are only responsible for 2 years of it
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
yeah...
thats a little of a my bad… I read “gave him 60 million” which isn’t what you said. But Ive sasid it before, and I stand by it, that not many QB’s would excel in this situation. Especially since timing is so much a part of offense, its going to take time for Cassel to get his timing right with these receivers. Which is doubly hard since he has an entirely new receiving corp nearly every week.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions
But, But, But...
Screwing with the lineups “builds character”. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
The bad thing is....
I did say we gave him 60 million and i changed it at the last minute… GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Even so
We need him to work out. Given that we have so many other major holes, going for a franchise QB and dealing with the rest of the mess may mean the rebuilding project could take years longer.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Agree
The o-line MUST be addressed. Sooner rather than later.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Its easy to say the O-Line must get better.
but teams generally do not let good offensive lineman walk.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions
Thats what the draft is for =)
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
That's Why Not Signing Jason Brown Was Such A Colossal Screwup
When you’ve got that amount of cap space and a 25 year old center coming off a legitimate Pro Bowl year suddenly becomes an unrestricted free agent and center just happens to be an area of critical need, you offer the guy a record-breaking contract immediately.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Abso-friggin-lutely!
and then not drafting one in the second round when we passed on Brown
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Did he sign before we landed Pioli?
I dont remember the off season timeline. But If I recall correctly, wasn’t Pioli hired fairly late in the process? I know Haynesworth was signed before Pioli was hired.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:10 PM CST up reply actions
You are indeed correct, sir
He was hired after Brown was gone
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
We should continue this at the bottom
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:12 PM CST up reply actions
Incorrect, Actually
Pioli was hired in January…Brown got signed end of February.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Bringing in big name free agents isnt the way that Pioli wants to build the team… But damnit, it would be real fucking nice to have Jason brown
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
You Can't Build Only Through The Draft
Even successful teams that have a core of drafted players still have to use some level of free agency at key positions.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Have you watch Houston football much? My brother has season tickets there and says Schaub sucks
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 8, 2009 11:52 PM CST up reply actions
He's lucky he has Andre Johnson
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 8, 2009 11:53 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, It Goes Both Ways
Schaub uses a lot of receivers beside Johnson. He’s also got Slaton, Daniels (until last week), and Kevin Walter. He’s not a one-trick pony.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Unless You're Also Saying That Peyton Manning Sucks
Because he’s lucky to have Reggie Wayne. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I've Watched Schaub Play
He doesn’t suck…he’s a pretty damned good QB, in fact. His only issue over his career has been injuries.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Actually Last Year Was
He had over 3,000 then…the only reason Rosenfels got playing time was because Schaub got hurt midseason (which has been a constant with him). He solidified his role as starter last season, though.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Huh?
Schaub sat on the bench for his first three years and started two games before the Texans gave him a big deal. Cassel had a lot more experience before being named starter of a team.
I must have him mixed up with someone else
ONCE AGAIN
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
You Might Have Been Thinking Of David Carr
He was the “franchise QB” until they finally got tired of waiting for him to figure it out.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Yep, there it is
Thats who i was thinking of
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Understandable
After all, who cares about the Texans except for fantasy football geeks? :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Andre Johnson agrees
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
I agree Cassel has looked good considering his o-line. This o-line does not have enough talent to compete. Unless we address this problem in the off-season we are doomed to have a dismal 2010.
by ChiefinSaintsland on Nov 8, 2009 9:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I Thought He Did Okay Today
I haven’t really criticized Cassel’s performance today because I don’t think it’s merited…I just think the Chiefs have done him no favors at all this year.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Got to disagree
How many passes hit the recievers in the hands? How many times did the receiver run a different route than Cassel was expecting?
I was screaming at Sean Ryan!
That’s either bad receiver play, or awful coaching! And I like Haley overall!
"The road to Easy Street goes through the sewer."
--John Madden
Do you really think...
Firing Todd Haley half way through his first season is the best idea?
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 6:24 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
I’d rather see the team go the rest of the way under Chan Gailey than watch Haley make continue to destroy what little motivation the players have left. The man has been a disaster for this franchise. He is a rotten head coach.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
And, As My Dad Once Said
“Sometimes the solution to building a happy workplace is to simply fire all the miserable people.”
And Haley’s the most miserable of them all.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
So you would take the chance of firing a good coach...
Like Oakland did with Shanahan…. And become like Washington where you have a carousel of coaches?
Remember that patience is a virtue.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 6:38 PM CST up reply actions
But Haley is proving he coaches with his heart, not his head
And that is NEVER a good sign for a head coach
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
To Rebut
So you would take the chance of firing a good coach…like Oakland did with Shanahan
Yup. Because absolutely nothing about Haley’s performance this season, either on gamedays or the weeks between says that he’s a good coach. And most of his actions indicate he’s a pretty bad one.
Shanahan went 7-9 and 1-3 with the Raiders before he got canned. Haley’s no Shanahan.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I dont think there is anyway you can say definitevely...
that he is a good or bad coach. And I dont see all “the awful” mistakes that you see I guess. Im not saying he has done things perfectly, but I imagine there are variables that go into the decision making process that we aren’t privy to. I would also imagine that the Chiefs (though they may have said so) didn’t expect to be competitive this year. So this was going to take more than 8 games to turn into a juggernaut.
I guarantee I can play devils advocate with any gripe you may have with any decision Haley has had that you disagree with.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions
not sold on haley
and never was from the start. but hopefully his learning this season translates into success in the future.
Of Course You Can
And, like I said, I realize it’s too soon for most people to come to the conclusion Haley should be fired.
But I’m certain that’s what needs to happen for this team to go anywhere. Whenever the Chiefs get back to the playoffs, Todd Haley will not be the head coach here.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Agreed
I know UC has been ready to drag Haley out back and beat him for some time but we need to give him time and good players. I doubt even McDaniel’s could’ve won games with what Herm left.
If He Had Good Players
I doubt he would have gotten much more from them.
Actually, I have doubts that he’s even able to identify good players.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
The only difference was that Denver brought in good FA...
what did we do? Oh yeah, hired a coach and let him take over HC and OC and QB coach.
And Ignored The O-Line
And kept giving Larry Johnson carries despite him being utterly washed up. And scrapped the offense two weeks before the season. And benched the starting WR to make some obscure point the only result of which has been to hinder the ability of the QB to work with him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
And i really wish we hired McDaniels.
I just wish Clark would have texted Pioli and said can we hire McDaniels now so another division team doesnt snag him? and Pioli could have simply said “yes”
It Would Have Been Tampering
But I’d rather have had that situation than the current one.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I firmly believe it is their Defensive coordinator that is making them so good
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
And their stellar offensive line
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
Patience
Remember that patience is a virtue.
Tell it to our coach in regards to his stupid benchings and grade-school head games.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Stupid benchings?the
If a player isn’t going to give his all then why not bench him? Just because Herm was willing to overlook mediocre effort doesn’t mean Haley should too.
Benching our #1 WR was a disaster from the start
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
that was preseason..
who cares
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions
Our QB
He was brand new and he got almost no time to work with Bowe before the season started because Haley demoted Bowe to the 3rd string.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Did you listen to the post game conf with Haley
He made the comment that from the stand point of a WRs coach…QBs building relationships on the field with WRs is one of the most overated things in football.
That Assessment Would Hold More Weight With Me
If our offense wasn’t ranked in the bottom 10.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Peyton Manning and Marvin Harrison would surely disagree with you
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
Im still not convinced DJ is a great linebacker...
He makes the occasional big play, but Antonio Cromartie makes a lot of big plays too, and he is an awful corner back.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
So Far
Bowe’s performance this year has been right in line with what he’s done the previous two years.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I Don't Know About That
Larry Fitzgerald was a pretty darned good receiver before he ever met Todd Haley.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Fitz has said multiple times
Even after he joined the Chiefs, that Haley helped him immensely in his career and he appreciates him also being on him.
And Anquan Boldin has said he appreciates Todd Haley, and even said he would play for a Haley coached team.
Bowe seems to love him...
so if he is past the “benching” I dont see why it keeps getting brought up
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
it's not about
d bowe not liking him….. it’s about the fact that he hasn’t done anything to help d bowe
I think thats debatable...
The fact that D Bowes stats aren’t stellar doesn’t say he isn’t better, just says that the entire offense isn’t better.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:14 PM CST up reply actions
ummmm
I think that’s exactly what it means…. we have a similar group of players as last year… some people would argue that there are offensive ugrades… yet he isn’t performing any better than in past years….
He was never double covered in the previous years
TG took that role….but now Bowe is getting double covered
Someone said...
that he is on pace as what he did the last 2 years. Also the offensive line has regressed, and its a new offense.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
Either way...
the guy still drops passes here and there… and isn’t significantly better than previous years….
You can lead a horse to water...
At some point the player has to take responsibility.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:22 PM CST up reply actions
Fair Enough, But
I think the point callmesir was making is that for all the games Haley played, Bowe’s essentially the same player he was last year. So what has Haley really added with the games?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Its very possible
that Haley is a little in over his head. I read an interview with Andy Reid, and he pretty much said he made all the same mistakes his first year. So I just dont think its possible to say he is a good coach or a bad coach.
I dont think any body would actually argue that Haley is in fact stupid, so he has to be given time to learn from his mistakes.
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:25 PM CST up reply actions
The Difference Between Reid And Haley
Haley is over-the-top with his use of the stick…Reid wasn’t. I think he’s already pissed away most of his credibility with his tantrums and behavior.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I dont agree with that.
And personally I would much rather wait for a second year to see if he does in fact suck, rather than fire him and he turn out to be a good coach.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
If He Gets Fired Here
He’s not getting another head coaching job for a long time.
There’s nobody who’s going to immediately snap up a guy who’s alienates his players and doesn’t get them to win. The most he’ll get is an OC position somewhere like Scott Linehan.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Im not sure you can say...
he has alienated his players. Yeah LJ is pissed, but when hasn’t that guy been pissed.
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
I Don't Even Care About Johnson
What about Brian Waters? That guy never bitched about coaching. Haley had him demanding a trade. Same with Pollard…all he wanted was not to be talked to like a child. Haley would rather dump him and replace him with a has-been than treat him like a professional.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
If there is anyone on the offense
that has little responsibility to bear it’s d bowe… he’s been the best offensive player we’ve had for 3 years….
Many people thought Haley would turn him into a superstar… and there’s really no discernable difference
So Bowe isn't to blame for his drops?
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:25 PM CST up reply actions
Bowe's To Blame For The Drops
But Haley’s added nothing in that regard…Bowe is the same player under Haley he was under Herm.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
But that may not be Haley's fault...
like I said you can lead a horse to water, but if Bowe isn’t doing the things he needs to get better then that isn’t on Haley… There is only so much a coach can do.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:29 PM CST up reply actions
Just Saying
If Haley can’t get his players to perform any better than Herm did, then Haley’s not really a better coach than Herm.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
This team barely resembles last years team
and its pretty hard to make chicken salad out of chicken shit.
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah
I’d argue that Haley has actually made this team worse by driving off young players who might have developed but who required actual coaching.
Haley doesn’t coach…he screams.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
And Once They're Not In Front Of The Cameras
They probably go back to bitching about what a miserable bastard he is. Kind of like how Larry Fitzgerald tells the world he loves playing with Kurt Warner only for his brother to start tweeting about how frustrated Larry is with Warner’s inability to throw downfield this year. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
He did say that...
maybe if he’s allowed just to focus on one small thing at a time he can succeed…. but he hasn’t done anything to help d bowe….. I don’t see any difference between this year and last…
it may not be possible though.
Not to many people are capable of being Larry Fitzgerald.
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:01 PM CST up reply actions
Agreed
There’s a reason he was taken so high out of Pitt.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Not only that...
but Fitzgerald was good… Even really good, but then when Bolden went down, that was when he became the Superstar.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
Sorry, Joel
I just cant stand the Chargers! I hate them more than the Raiders.
And about the Brown situation…he’s not the same, that’s why the Bears released him.
Well That's Great
Bring it up on a thread that’s actually about the Chargers.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
As For Brown
We were also the only team to offer him a contract this offseason. The Browns were the only other team that had him in for a tryout and they passed because his skills had declined so badly.
Like I said, he had a good career…it’s just past his time to be a starter.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I Just Don't Understand Their Logic
They’re the ones who are supposed to be watching 20 times as much film on the game as the rest of us. And most people can see that Mike Brown isn’t cutting it. There’s no reason for the coaching staff not to see it.
Then again, Mike Brown does possess the quality Haley covets most…obedience.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
They probably cut Pollard because
he stood up and got into it with Pendergast, Pendergast went and cried to Haley, and a couple days later Pollard is cut. Hmmm…. Mike Brown listens like he’s Haleys Dog, and he still is a starter with backup (at best) skills.
I Won't Call Brown A "Dog"
He was a very good player and he’s a class act. But I think your assessment of Pollard is probably correct. Dude didn’t like being belittled and said so, so the coach cut him. I’ve felt the same when I’ve had bosses who treat their employees like Haley treats his players.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Some Personalities Are Confrontational, Some Aren't
I just see “dog” as kind of a negative descriptor in that context and wouldn’t use it myself. Haley likes him because he doesn’t rock the boat and Haley cares more about that than how well a player performs.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Which fits right in with his "right 53" bullshit mentality
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
Yup
It’s important to be on board with the program, but it’s just as important to be talented. Haley values one quality far more than the other.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
How bout this...
If by next year things aren’t significantly better under Haley then UC you can give me one of the pitchforks and the rest of us Haley supporters will help you run him out of town.
Works For Me
Just for the record, I don’t blame anyone else for not giving up on the guy yet and I understand if people think my opinion on it is hasty.
But I’m just done with the guy…I’ve seen enough from him to convince me he’s dug himself into a hole here he’s probably not going to dig out of.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
by UCrawford on Nov 8, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
oh, but
pioli stated none of herms guys we cut were even the league anymore, which was supposed to make us think he and Haley knew what they were doing. Then we go sign a guy no other team would have? Huh.
What players have we cut; are better than what we currently have here now?
I see people make the argument for Pollard.
But, for the most part – these guys that we keep bringing in off the street are just as good if not better then what they are replacing on the roster. Doesn’t say alot about the talent we had to start with.
its the contradiction
that bothers me. I believe they will turn things around…just dont care for the arrogance sometimes.
I think Haley has shown that he will replace any player if someone better
is available to replace him. As bad as Brown is…who is better to replace him right now.
heck year...
That should have been the first name out of my mouth…. colquitt showed wheels and the ability to tackle… I say he’s our new starting saftey… if he doesn’t make the pro bowl playing two positions… I’m screaming conspiracy… ha
wow
i was just gonna write a post on how mike brown has killed us all year, im glad everyone is seeing what i am. I think he probably takes the worst angles towards a player for a tackle in the history of the nfl, its embarrassing. i like mike brown hes got a good overall nfl personality but the truth is hes not getting it done this year, wish we still had the bone crusher. cant wait to get taylor mays in the draft next yr!
OK...So our safety position sucks too
just add it to our grocery list for the offseason.
I think they are on aisle 8…right behind the OL, LBs, and NTs
so what???
if he’s a fan of mike brown’s? jesus…if he stays in there because of that, then he isnt living up to his own words and his own philosophy. Time to start coaching with your head, not your heart..
I like the guy too, but in this league you just have to go with talent and playmakers over good people, or guys that have good work ethic. Remember the chiefs Maslowski project???
I would say that work ethic and football IQ is part of talent. And can be just as important
as playmaking ability.
I'm just refering to guys that make one or two great plays a game
then fail to be in th right position another 5 plays out of the game. Fans think – this guy is great he has a pick every game. But, what we don’t see is how many times he is failing to do what the coach is asking him to do on the other 20 plays.
I just think that is what has put guys like DJ and maybe Pollard before he was cut in the dog house.
But in this case...
those 1 or 2 great plays could pull off a win…But the case with us now is that we have no plays at all…
Right, we may be giving up the 1 great play a game
to eliminate the 10 bad plays. Would you rather have a CB that gets an INT for a TD every game but also gives up 2 TDs or a CB that never gets an INT, but never gives up a TD?
I just think that at this point of Building a team you are trying to get guys to do things right all the time rather than take chances and make impact play. (Gamble and going for pick,)
Pollard never went for the pick though....IMO that was more of Page.
Pollard always went for the knockout punch. And im fine with that because that knockout punch could cause some damage.
But in a sense you are right because if we do that then we leave it up to the Offense to make plays just like the old days, but since we dont have an offense we cant really do that lol
When you go from player to player or positionj to position
everyweek. As the reason that the Chiefs lost – I would say that pretty much means that the team sucks as a whole. So, we pin this game and Dallas on M. Brown. Hand a couple out to the OL. I’m sure Cassell get a few.
of course it is
and we need guys like that on the field and in the locker room. just sayin…the guy looks bad out there right now, and when other guys have looked bad, they were demoted. But not brown because haley likes him? He brings leadership and IQ to the table, yes, and he’s not a cancer but in the end, its the winning and making plays that counts.
of course it doesnt help that we are so thin at safety right now either..
We STILL would have lost
We only scored in the 4th quarter against the Jacksonville prevent D, installed because of some bet placed in vegas, i mean… to prevent the big play! I hate the god damn prevent D.
Yes, Brown screwed up, but I don’t believe that cost us the game, even with Brown’s admission.
But I have to tell ya this… Brown’s a man to own it. That’s more than I can say about most of the Chiefs on the active roster. So Brown has potential and character… I say keep him around to see if he develops. He isn’t hurting the team THAT much.
leadership, experience, coaching, intangibles plus
Listen, we’re only paying the guy $900,000. We can shore up the position later through the draft or free agency. Brown is aging, but he’s not that old. He’s a former 2x All Pro making a comeback. Give him some slack.
well
who’s to say who gets slack and who doesnt? DJ doesnt get any. Bowe didnt. Thats the sort of thing that makes guys angry and want to gripe. They get called out, the other guy doesnt. But…i do strongly believe everyone should be treated fairly but not the same so i dunno…again its the contadiction/arrogance sometimes that makes me question things a bit.
You're right about DJ
Haley needs his head examined for letting him rot on the bench. I went out and bought a DJ jersey when we drafted him—in the right system, the kid could be a future hall-of-famer.
Brown’s trying to return to his former probowl self. I’m not convinced he can, but for the money we’re paying him it’s a good bet to keep him around. He made a couple of mistakes, but there were a ton of mistakes made. At least he’s owning up to his.
Something I learned
even though it was just highschool basketball..i remember the coach telling us that if hes not getting after you..thats when you should really be worried.
I agree with that. If a coach is constantly getting after a guy, its because the coach believes in that guy and is trying to get the best out of him. Haley got on Bowes ASS for dropping a pass…DBowe goes out and snatches an incredible TD. Haley told Bowe when he got to the sidelines…“Dont let me break you”
Theres a bigger mental side to football..or any sport that alot of people dont realize. Some guys cant take the pressure of getting coached.
BUT..that aside..I agree with you. Brown has not been very good. He had a good start in Baltimore..but..not much since. He also looked good against the Giants.
Those are his assets. IMO, i think he is done as far as potential wise. He has potential to
help another S out with a few tips here and there but thats about it. Yes, he is a former all pro….but since DJ was a former 1st round pick, does he get slack too?
Maybe. 9 years in the league
He may only have a couple left in the tank. We’ve been down this road before with aging corners (Surtain, Law) but with Brown, our financial risk is subdued. Hell for that kind of money he can ride the bench and give us depth, if nothing else.
I don't know why you think Haley won't bench or cut Brown
I haven’t seen anything from Haley that makes me think he’s works like that. I’m not even sure he didn’t play this week jsut because of injury problems with our safeties. I don’t really know where you’re coming from on this one, Joel.
"A word to the wise isn't necessary, it is the stupid ones who need all the advice." ---Bill Cosby
Multiple instances over the last few months
Even when Brown’s had a bad game, Haley has stuck up for him and repeatedly said he’s one of the guys that “gets it” and talks about him being a leader of the defense. Those don’t sound like comments from a coach who’s about to bench a player.
Plus…if Brown didn’t get benched after Miles Austin and Vincent Jackson then what will it take?
Even on Friday
When asked about DaJuan Morgan, Haley talked about safeties being the leader of the defense, like Mike Brown.
I'm sure Brown does a pretty good job of reading offenses and showing leadership
But I don’t think Haley is the type to stick with someone who repeatedly shows he can’t play. You said yourself Brown has played at times like the Pro Bowler he was earlier this year. But I"m not going to assume that Haley sticks by him forever if he’s the cause of giving up big plays every week
The only qualifier I can put on is that without knowing the defense called, there are times when the safety looks guilty and isn’t. Today Brown has owned up to them, but I don’t know how many he’s missed in total.
"A word to the wise isn't necessary, it is the stupid ones who need all the advice." ---Bill Cosby
I think he would bench him in a minute, if he felt there was a better option.
by vincent2668 on Nov 8, 2009 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed and rec'd
"A word to the wise isn't necessary, it is the stupid ones who need all the advice." ---Bill Cosby
I just don't see him making a change
Just my opinion based off of what Haley has said (and I recognize your disagreement).
I guess the other part of it is that coaches make comments for different purposes
I’ve known coaches to make comments like that in order to put pressure on a guy to perform better. I don’t think an endorsement is always just an endorsement. There’s a long and clear history of that in the NFL.
And I can agree to disagree. You’re certainly closer to the team than me. Thanks for the post.
"A word to the wise isn't necessary, it is the stupid ones who need all the advice." ---Bill Cosby
Telling The Coach To "Fuck Off, Jack Nicklaus"
I think that’s about the only offense that universally gets someone benched in KC.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
ummm I think you're forgetting how good jack nicklaus was...
Haley couldn’t even get his pro card…..
true
I love that he’s man enough to own up to things. I like the guy, always have and love the kind of qualities he possesses, but used to love mike maslowski too for the same reasons, and he just couldnt get it done as a starter. Thats my point..
Here is where the Chiefs need to fill holes:
Defense —4 new starters and 2 new backups.
Need a dominating DT. Edwards is the backup.
Dorsey and Jackson are your DEs. With Gillberry and Magee as backups.
Varbel and Hali are the OLBs but need 2 new backups.
Mays and Johnson are the ILB with Williams and Belcher as your backups.
Carr and Flowers are the CBs with Washington and Leggett as backups.
Need 2 new starting safeties with McGraw and Page as backups.
Need a new starting nickel with Morgan as the backup.
Offense: 4 new starters and 2 new backups
Need a new starting LT, Move Albert to LG, Move Waters to center, need a new starting RG and RT.
C Brown, W Smith, R Niswanger, Ndukwe, and O’Callaghan are your reserve backups for next year.
Chambers and Bowe are your starting WRs. Need a new starting slot reciever. Bradley and TBD are the backups WR.
Wade is your backup slot reciever
QBs are set w/ Cassel, Croyle, Gutierrez. RBs are Smith, Charles, and Savage with a TBD 4th and 5th back. Any of the 5 could be the starter. Ryan and Pope are the TEs with a 3rd to TBD. Any of the 3 could be the starter.
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 8, 2009 7:00 PM CST reply actions
It was a 1st and 2 3rd rounders...
If we had a good scouting crew i think we could have came up big on that one….
This game was not close, this game was just flucky at the end
And this secondary coaching is atrocious.
As For Pioli And Jason Brown
Pioli was hired end of January, Brown was signed end of February. Pioli completely whiffed.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I dont think its fair to grade Pioli purely on the one off season.
I dont think it was possible for him to have a full understanding of the roster by the time key free agents could have been signed.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:16 PM CST up reply actions
Nice point there
Before you judge a man, walk a mile in his shoes; after that, who cares?! He's a mile away and you've got his shoes!
I Think It's Fair To Grade His Ability To Identify Talent In The Draft And Free Agency
And frankly his judgment in both areas has pretty much sucked this year. Most of his free agents were busts. Only Jackson and Succop look like good players.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
But remember, Pioli didn't have his own scouts...there were still some of Herms.
Biggest MISTAKE of this draft was Donald Washington.
Bah
He was doing draft research for the Patriots before then. He knew the draft pool.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I dunno...
Cornerback is one of the places that takes the most time to develop. Very rarely does a first year defensive back play well. He may get better, but I doubt he ever achieves superstar status
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
I mean...Carr was a 7th round pick right? and he still has alot more upside than Washington has.
Just saying they took him for his athletic ablilty…not football ablility.
I believe Carr was a 3rd or 4th round pick
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by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:26 PM CST up reply actions
But really if he took the job in January...
how long would it take for him to fully understand what he got himself into. And more than likely up until January all of his scouting was to fill Patriot needs, so I would imagine this year on scouting would be more focused on Chiefs needs.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions
Can You Really Say He Drafted According To Need For The Chiefs?
Donald Washington certainly wasn’t a need. I don’t think Magee was much of one either. Not like o-line certainly. I think he went for players he’d probably try to draft for the Patriots as well. Jackson essentially equals Richard Seymour.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Maybe...
but I still stand by my argument that he didn’t get enough time to fully prepare. Even the Patriots miss on some draft picks.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:23 PM CST up reply actions
They Missed On A Lot Pioli's Last Three Years
Can’t say as his personnel acumen over that timeframe has been all that impressive, assuming he was the one doing the drafting and not Belichick.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Drafting for need is what gets teams in trouble in the long run
How many top players did we pass on, going after D-linemen year after year.
Good Point
Problem is that I don’t think Pioli really drafted that much talent either. Nor did he find a lot of it in free agency. And he let the best safety we had walk for no compensation.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
And
He kept Larry Johnson.
I cannot emphasize enough what a ridiculous decision that was after the 2008 Johnson had (only four good games out of 12 and a lengthy suspension).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I'm with you on LJ. Plus we could have got out of that deal for free
after the ruling in the offseason.
How many posters would be in here mad that he didn’t give LJ a chance, if we would have cut him in the offseason?
Not Too Many
After they watched him suck for someone else.
He might have done better than 2.7 ypc elsewhere, but I don’t see him pulling 1,000 yards.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
We don't know why Pollard got booted out of town
He may have made no effort to do what the coaches were asking in the offseason.
I agree you do have to get talent some how. If you always have drafts that produce no talent, then you are a failure as a GM. I believe that you take best talent in the draft and fill holes with FAs. But, I know your point is that we didn’t get any FAs to fill holes.
At Least None That Were Good
We raided the Patriots’, Cardinals’ and Dolphins’ scrap heap for “prospects” then went after washed-up “name” players. The only thing Pioli did right was not tie us to those guys for long-term deals.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Even if he wasn't the one pulling the trigger in NE
I find it hard to believe that the guy cannot evaluate talent at all. I have to believe he has a reason for not going after some of the bigger names out there this past offseason.
At least
He can admit when he’s wrong. Look at the guys we picked up and then released when they realized the guys weren’t worth having. Engram, Lelie, Beisel.
Just seems like a healthy change from previous years when they picked up a guy and gave him all season long to screw up instead of cutting ties.
The biggest thing that you fail to recognize
is that there is a personal side to everything. Jason Brown might not have WANTED to come to KC. put yourself in a players shoes.
I’m not going to try to say what reason that might be..but I do know that Jason Brown worked out for STL on the 1st day of FA, and signed the next day.
Based on that, dont you think its possible that Scott Pioli..on the day of FA..called Jason Browns agent..threw an offer at him and wanted to work out Brown..and Brown said that he wasnt interested? I think its more than possible..I think somewhere along the lines..thats probably what happened. He was offered a contract that would make him the highest paid C in the NFL.
I saw your comment about throwing a record breaking contract at him..what do you mean by that? Record breaking..meaning..the highest paid player in football EVER?..for a C?! I cant agree with that one no matter how bad the OL is. Or do you mean record breaking for an OL? Cuz I still probably wouldnt agree that you pay a C more than any LT in the league.
Free Agents
Jason Brown might not have WANTED to come to KC. put yourself in a players shoes.
What, you mean he turned down the Chiefs because he desperately wanted to go to St. Louis? A town in the same state and same sized media market as KC, which has a team that’s been every bit as wretched as the Chiefs the last few years that’s also run by a rookie head coach? And that there was no chance we could have swayed Brown to come here with a better contract offer (which we could have afforded with all that cap space)?
Please. We didn’t lose Brown to the Vikings, or Giants, or Cowboys, or Steelers. We lost him to the fucking Rams. You don’t lose a player to the Rams unless you don’t care about signing him.
It’s the GM’s job to try and convince a player that KC is the place he wants to be. If Pioli can’t sway the guy to come here with a starting job and the best contract for his position, then he’s nothing special as a GM (because selling players on his program in KC is a major part of his job). And if Pioli loses out on the guy to a team that’s only a couple hundred miles away from him, in the same freaking state, and that’s been as badly run as any in the NFL for the last four years then he did a flat-out crappy job.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Youre entire arguement
is based on assumption.
Thats why I said put yourself in the players shoes. Jason Brown probably woke up, got a call from his agent, said these are the teams who called about you. Brown chose his team, worked out for them, and signed with them. I almost guarantee that Pioli never spoke with Brown. Half these players dont give a shit..they have money to pay the agents to do that stuff for them. All the players have to do is choose which team they wanna play for out of the teams that are interested. If they dont like the contract offer, they might try to negotiate for a bit, or else move on to the next team.
Hes now the highest paid C in the league so I would have to say that they gave him a contract that he liked. Therefore, the team he chose to workout for first (which, if i were a player, would be the team i was most interested in) offered him a contract that met his standard, and he signed it.
You cant say “well what does that team have that interested him”, because you dont know him. Maybe he has a couple of friends who plays for STL. Maybe he wanted to play with Jason Smith. I see you bashing STL and the Rams but maybe he doesnt have that same opinion. Maybe he thinks KC had the weaker team.
Scott Pioli mentioned after Brown was signed that you cant sign a player that isnt interested. Based on the fact that he worked out for 1 team, and signed the contract the next day, I think its safe to say that he simply wasnt interested in KC.
You cant blame Pioli for every FA that plays a position that we need and signs with a different team. Theres 31 other teams in the league and right now, Pioli doesnt have alot of ground to stand on to convince people to come to KC, but with the players this upcoming offseason and how they relate to Pioli and Haley spell good things. I think Mankins and Dansby will be in KC next year. Its a bold statement but so is yours regarding the firing of Haley 8 games into the first season.
So Is Yours
Unless you’re Jason Brown you’re as incapable of putting yourself in Brown’s shoes as I am.
Jason Brown probably woke up, got a call from his agent, said these are the teams who called about you. Brown chose his team, worked out for them, and signed with them. I almost guarantee that Pioli never spoke with Brown.
By that rationale, then the Rams didn’t speak to Brown either. So it was Pioli’s job to sell his team to the agent…and he had all the tools in place to do it because the team Brown signed with was no better equipped to sign him than we were. We had 1) cap space, 2) a starting job, and 3) a team that was actually better than the Rams last year.
If they dont like the contract offer, they might try to negotiate for a bit, or else move on to the next team.
Then why didn’t the Chiefs beat the Rams’ offer?
Your entire argument is premised on the futility of the Chiefs ever being able to sign a good free agent if someone else wants him…nothing more. I refuse to accept that.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Okay..I guess I didnt make myself clear
NONE OF US…except for Scott Pioli, Jason Brown, STL’s owner and Browns agent know what happened. All any of us can do is ASSUME what happened. You dont know any better than I do.
Here you go with those 3 things again. 1…STL has cap space too! Thats why they made him the highest paid C in the NFL! 2..he’s a freaking probowler. Hes going to be a starter no matter WHERE he goes. So therefore..those 2 things are completely void. STL had those exact same things. 3..EVERY Free Agent who choses to sign with a team that is 2-14 has a reason other than who was better than who. Theres 31 other teams in the league, why is he obligated to come to KC?
Maybe Pioli did make an offer. Maybe Pioli did offer more than what the Rams offerd. Maybe Jason Brown said no thanks. None of us know.
Point is, its a safe assumption to say that his #1 interest was playing for STL. He chose STL first, and gave noone else a chance. You want to blame Pioli, think about this. 30 other teams in the league besides us and them.. the ONLY team Brown worked out for was STL. He didnt just shut us out..he shut EVERY team in the league EXCEPT STL out. He WANTED to play for STL…its hard to change someones mind when its already made up..ESPECIALLY if everything they want is being offered to them by that team. A couple million is no big deal when youre talking about 40 million dollars.
Agreed
I’m not in favor of firing Pioli yet. Even if we go 1-15.
But I don’t think the same can be said of Haley.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Pioli is 100x better than Peterson...
So he is good in my book. But IMO, Haley is probably next to some of the worst coaches we have had (If the season never turns around).
I Doubt It
Considering how bad the o-line was this year, I suspect they would have leaked that they tried to sign those players…like Peterson leaked it whenever he whiffed on a FA signing by accusing other teams of tampering.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Peterson leaked everything. We never know who Pioli is looking at until its a done deal
with the exeption on some reporter looking over the fence and seeing a player that is in for a work out
Heres an idea.
Since the Chiefs have been through 3 years of hell…Arrowhead tickets should be free from now on for this season. The stadium will be packed always and we wont lose anymore fan base. :)
team goes bankrupt...
and we can’t sign draft picks or free agents… BRILLIANT IDEA!
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 8, 2009 7:35 PM CST up reply actions
Almost 80,000 seats
Haley buys the tickets for every game? Thats 800,000 for the season..IF tickets were a dollar.
I dont know how much tickets are but I do know they arent cheap. Say its 50 bucks a ticket..40 million…WAY over Haleys payroll.
Before you all bash Pioli
make sure you know the facts. He has never publicy stated who he has offered contracts to, but he made a comment ealier this year along the lines of “you cant sign someone who isnt interested” after being asked whether he made an offer to center Jason Brown.
However, I will criticize his 2009 draft class because 3rd round pick Alex Magee was drafted ahead of Bengals DE/OLB Michael Johnson, Chargers starting right guard Louis Vasquez and Texans center Antoine Caldwell…and 4th round cornerback Donald Washington is inactive most weeks. It seems to me like we could have better utilized those picks.
I've been
preaching that all season. I’m tired of people saying “Pioli ignored this, Pioli ignored that”
Jason Brown worked out for STL on day 1 of FA, and he signed the next day. 1 phone call to the agent to hear the agent say “hes not interested” and its over. Done deal. Things that small dont get leaked very often..if ever.
Right...Because The Rams Are The Premier Destination Of The NFL
Jason Brown worked out for STL on day 1 of FA, and he signed the next day.
And why didn’t the Chiefs have him here for a workout so they could make an offer? Pioli had been on the job for a month by that point…it’s not like he can use the excuse that he was (still) dragging out his contract negotiations for KC GM.
So what if Brown was in St. Louis for a workout? Pioli is incapable of getting people to come to KC for a workout? Then what good is bringing in Pioli? Is the primary reason the Chiefs hired him supposed to be that he can convince players to want to come here because he was allegedly one of the architects of the New England dynasty?
1 phone call to the agent to hear the agent say "hes not interested" and its over.
If our GM can’t convince a free agent that Kansas City is a better destination for him than St. Louis when he has money to spend and a starting spot, then our GM sucks. And by “sucks” I mean that he is likely completely worthless to this franchise because he’s a shitty salesman. Brown is an excellent center who fit a critical need and we had a ton of cash to throw at him and could have beaten the Rams’ offer…any Chiefs GM who can’t sell his team as being better than the Rams doesn’t deserve to be GM.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Completely
irrational.
Maybe Jason Brown thinks that St. Louis is superior to KC…which is a common thought by people who arent from around here. I dont think that, you dont think that, and most people who live in KC dont think that, but you know what? STL says the SAME shit about us as we do them. You’re basing that arguement off of your OPINION that KC is better than STL. While I agree with your opinion that KC>STL, that doesnt mean Jason Brown does.
Pioli probably called his agent, his agent was likely gathering a list of teams that were interested. Brown and his agent spoke, he chose from the list, worked out for the team he WANTED TO PLAY FOR (why STL? I dont know. but he was a young FA pro bowl OL..he was going to get money and a starters position no matter where he played) and I say that with confidence. It doesnt make sense to go to a team that you dont want to play for if youre a FA..unless of course youre TO and only 1 team offers you a contract..
Yeah, we had a ton of cash and could have beaten the Rams offer..and they say money talks..but when youre getting a 5 year, 37.5 million dollar contract from a team that youre interested in, and another team that youre not so interested in offers you a 40 million dollar contract..to people like us..that 2.5 million is huge. To them? its a fraction of that.
Say you break it down into an every day job situation. You REALLY want to work for this one company that offers you 37,500 but another company really needs you and offers 40,000 annual salary. Thats 48 dollars a week extra. Sure, maybe some grocery money or something but nothing significant enough to make me take that offer over the offer with the company that I really want to work for.
Point is..Pioli..in reference to Jason Brown..said you can’t sign someone who isnt interested. So its pretty obvious that Pioli attempted to get him. You cant make someone want to come here if they dont want to come here. Maybe he was a Rams fan growing up..who freaking knows?
If Pioli Said That
Point is..Pioli..in reference to Jason Brown..said you can’t sign someone who isnt interested.
Then Pioli is a loser.
Seriously…he’s a loser. If he can’t sign a free agent that he wants and that the team needs and has the money for, then what good is he? Any of the commenters on this board could probably fail to sign free agents and hire their buddies to coach the team, for a hell of a lot less money than Pioli’s getting to do it. And they probably wouldn’t do much worse than what Pioli and Haley have turned out.
I won’t make excuses for Pioli not being able to deliver on his hype. He wanted to tout his credentials as a Belichick protege and turn it into a big contract…let’s see him deliver more than scrubs off Belichick’s scrap heap.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
That's not true
Look at Larry Foote, the ONLY team he was interested in playing for was Detroit. Pioli could have offered double the money and a guaranteed SuperBowl ring, and it would not have changed his mind.
There are other motivating factors to players. Let’s give Pioli 3 years (less than Carl’s 20 year long 5 year plan) and then we can start to evaluate him.
Jimmy Johnson’s 1-15 Dallas Cowboys that eventually won Superbowls looked far worse than our Chiefs do this year.
"The road to Easy Street goes through the sewer."
--John Madden
Thank you!
I just dont get this arguement. We’re talking about a player who spoke with ONE team, worked out with that ONE team, and signed with that ONE team.
But since Pioli couldnt sign him, hes a loser, so I guess every other GM in the league that needed a player like Jason Brown is a loser too. Except for STL’s of course.
This is crazy
I’ve always liked your POV on alot of subjects. But this one is way off the wall.
Let me ask you..how would you have brought Jason Brown in?
How do you MAKE someone want to sign with a shitty team that they werent interested in in the first place? All you talk about is money..money isnt the primary motivating factor for all of these guys. Its pretty obvious that he wanted to play for STL and no other team given the fact that he didnt talk to a single team other than STL. So are you saying that EVERY GM in the NFL who needed an OG/C is a “loser” for not throwing a ton of money at him?
Mike Brown being done
Mike brown is washed up. This guy has been a liability at safety all year. I’ve watched every Chiefs game this season and he’s been the guy giving up big plays in the secondary. He just doesn’t have the speed to help out the corners on deep routes or come up and tackle the running back on run plays. No Joel he isn’t going to be benched this year but he want be around next year. If Pioli/Haley are smart and don’t want to repeat mistake of the past like they did letting Pollard go. Page should start next year at free safety and Morgan needs to move back to his natural position as the starting strong safety. And we can just draft a safety late a couple safeties in the 5 and 6th rounds of the draft next year.
Pass Rush
Mike Brown is washed up but a consistent pass rush would help. Hali cannot do it on his own.
Every one says the Chiefs need a better pass rush, but then when you specifically call players out you get
Vrabel – He’s the best player we have on Defense
Hali – He’s been a tremendous surprise
Dorsey – He’s really doing a great job for a new position
Tyson Jackson – He’s a rookie, it takes 2-3 years to learn the position
Edwards – He’s doing so good that we didn’t need Tank Tyler anymore
DeMorrio Williams – He’s playing so well that DJ can’t get on the field
Hayes – a little weak against the pass, but a playmaker against the run
So, if our front seven is doing that good, where is the problem with the pass rush? (Which by the way, actually they pressured Garrard pretty consistently on Sunday)
"The road to Easy Street goes through the sewer."
--John Madden
Dropping Pollard was just one of the bad moves IMO...
I dont think we did too well in the draft either. Say what you want, but TJ was a stretch. He is going to be a decent player but nobody projected him going as high as he did in the draft…We had a ton of other players that we could have drafted. Curry, any of the OT, Crabtree,Percy Harvin……I though Brown would do ok too…..but it just goes to show that the bears knew what the were doing apparently..
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