Former Chief Believes Players Will Begin to Question Haley
by Joel Thorman on Nov 7, 2009 2:52 PM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintFormer Kansas City Chiefs lineman Bill Maas appeared on 610 Sports yesterday afternoon talking with Chris and Cowboy about, what else, the sign. Maas brings a unique viewpoint, as a former player, when he talks about the dynamics of a lockerroom, which is interesting as well.
He, like more and more folks, thinks this sign was a "JV move" by the coaching staff. In fact, Maas takes it a step further and argues that this is turning point in the new regime's future.
"Mark the date down that this occurred," he says, "this will be a monumental point in time in this Haley/Pioli era and it's either going to be one way or the other."
More from Maas after the jump where he tells us that he knows the players notice this stuff and will begin to second guess him "because that's what players do."
Maas argues that it'll be something that unifies the team or it'll be another low point in a string of low points for the franchise.
And with that unique viewpoint, Maas compares to an experience he had as a player with the Chiefs under head coach John Mackovic.
"I can remember, John Mackovic," Maas says, "one time he came in and he put up this "Goals" sign above the hot tub where the players congregated in the shower, and it said team goals.
"Win three games in a row, all these different little things, it was a ladder," he continued. "He put it up. It was like, 'Wait a second, you put this up' and we didn't even vote on team goals. The players just mocked and laughed and made fun of it.
"When you get to that point, doing those desperate things, the players know it. I just can't believe it happened this early. That might work in a golf clubhouse, but it's not working in a NFL lockerroom."
Strong words from Mr. Maas, as he continues to say that the Chiefs players are likely to second guess Haley on this.
"The players are going to second guess it because that's what players do," he told 610 Sports.
Maas gets a little more specific continuing with the sign issue. He calls the timing of it a "poor decision" and wonders aloud if LJ's tweets resonate, privately of course, with any of the current Chiefs.
"Obviously the problem isn't with just one person. They must feel like there is more than just one person that believes what Larry johnson was spouting off about."
Jason Whitlock of the Kansas City Star ttouched on this subject yesterday, as well. There are some players, per Whitlock, that will say the right things to continue seeing their paycheck.
"The players are going to say the right thing, there's no question," Maas said yesterday afternoon. "But to themselves they have to be saying, 'You've got to be kidding me'."
Moss goes on to say that the sign comes off accusatory from the coaches to the players. He says that finger pointing is the beginning of a possible downfall for the team.
To counter his point, I'd argue that any significant "turning point" or "downfall" won't come for quite some time. It's hard to judge a coach seven games into his coaching career. I don't think we should be in the mindset that anyone with the organization considers replacing Haley after year one (and maybe even year two).
Maas did say, however, he wants Haley to succeed, which is what we all want as well.
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I heard part of the Maas interview.
Maas is pretty down on Haley’s methods and compared him to Makovic in terms of how little player respect they have gained due to similar posters.
Yep
“I can remember, John Mackovic,” Maas says, "one time he came in and he put up this “Goals” sign above the hot tub where the players congregated in the shower, and it said team goals.
“Win three games in a row, all these different little things, it was a ladder,” he continued. "He put it up. It was like, ‘Wait a second, you put this up’ and we didn’t even vote on team goals. The players just mocked and laughed and made fun of it. "
And yet Mackovic was the head coach
that broke the 15 year playoff drought. The turned the team over to Gansz and it immediately went in the crapper.
I’m waiting the Bill’s anti-drug and gun safety PSA.
The Difference Between Mackovic And Haley
Mackovic has been a fairly successful coach most of the places he’s gone…he wins games. Of course he also doesn’t last long because the man’s a world-class douchebag and he’s had player revolts during two of his jobs in college as well. But he’s still a better coach than Haley.
I think Maas is right on…this is the turning point for Haley and I don’t think it’s a good one. And frankly, I don’t think that seven games is too quick to judge a head coach who piles bad decision upon bad decision. Except for getting his players to lose weight, this man has not done a damned thing to improve this squad. The same “But the team hasn’t quit on Haley” bullshit we’re hearing now is the same kind of crap we heard last year about Herm’s team (and yes…the players quit on Herm last year). I suspect that we’ll be seeing the same miserable performances in the second half of the season that we did in the first.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Crawford, I have to say you're (partly) wrong on this comment ... because ...
… I thought the team played their collective butts off for Herm last season … ESPECIALLY second half of the year when Gailey went to the Wildcat with Thigpen
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
They Had The Same Number Of Wins In The 2nd Half Of The Season That They Did In The 1st...One
And their second half win came against a really hopeless Raiders team that had fired their coach mid-season.
That team completely quit on Herm. They just looked superficially better for a little while because Herm finally realized his Loser Ball offense didn’t fit his personnel.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Wow...
The players just mocked and laughed and made fun of it. "
That tells you how bad of leadership there was amongst the players…Vocally demeaning their coach is unacceptable if you are going to be a successful team.
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
by woodman212 on Nov 7, 2009 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Wasn't Jack Del Rio on that team?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Nope he came in 87
revolt was 86
Chiefs Roster
1986 Chiefs
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
so, woodman ... a coach vocally demeaning players IS acceptable?
not in public, of course … just as players don’t demean their coach in public … but if one isn’t acceptable, why would the other one be? and let’s face it, Haley’s style of “in your face” screaming and demoting players is as demeaning to an adult as it gets
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
I just dont know how this team can lose faith in haley
we havent done crap but win one game against a bad redskins team. You would think the players need to start looking around at each other and take responsibilty for their action on the field. Not always look at someone to blame their mistakes on.
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
and the last time i checked .
haley is not getting off side calls , pass int calls. holding calls, late hit calls those are the things that are killing this team and thats not haleys fault its the players not focusing or coming together as a team. hence the signs that are posted i dont know how a coach can be hammerd for suggesting that a team should play as a team
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
but then, Haley came in and was ragging on the players like they were little kids from day one
not how you show leadership as HC (IMNSHO) … I agree the players need to play AS A TEAM etc etc ad nauseum, but do they really even NEED a sign?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Uh really? Those aren't his fault?
Last I checked, the coach is ALWAYS blamed for a team with lots of penalties. So yeah, the coach IS to blame for those penalties.
Players not coming together as a team? Maybe its because they keep switching guys positions, benching them if they have one bad game or releasing and bringing new guys in every week.
Berry Richardson got one game to prove he could be a starting RT and had a bad case of nerves so rather than keep working on him, they switch positions on him and make him a backup. Maurice Legget tries too hard to make plays on the balls and instead of coaching him up they bring in another guy that can’t even maintain coverage and bench leggett (now moving him to backup safety).
So I would blame the team not coming together partially on coaching as well.
by ChiefDJ on Nov 7, 2009 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I am so tired of everyone talking about a stupid sign.
If a sign is what makes the players quit on coach then they need to grow up and try to pay their bills off a min wage job like a lot of people do and see just how rough their life really is.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 7, 2009 3:15 PM CST reply actions
Meh...
Apparently this dude isn’t familiar with this sign being in the other places he has coached. Seems to me like someone is just trying to stir the pot.
This space for rent.
Apparently
this fellow has not been given the dont question the process speech.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 7, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions
the jokes...
they never die.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 7, 2009 9:07 PM CST up reply actions
hookers, drugs, and guns
isnt this the dude who got in lots of trouble for his hookers, drugs, and guns? sounds like LJ and someone who i wouldn’t take any advice from, plus i dont giv a crap about any of his bs perspective. also hes my coworkers uncle on a side note.
by EyePod on Nov 7, 2009 3:39 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Yep.
I can’t take him seriously anymore. He lost all his jobs and all his cred. Now 610 has brought him back to spew this sort of stuff and they are losing even more cred.
I can see what he is saying, but until it is from someone who is a legit source, it is just another opinion, and we’ve all got those.
Yeah he may not be a model citizen...
but I think his “opinion” is a lot more informed than an average APer or some dude off the street…. after all how many of us have been part of an NFL locker room
or a prison cell
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 7, 2009 10:44 PM CST up reply actions
personally
I can speak for the rest of the Chiefs fans -——- we dont care about some stupid sighn -— Haley had the taste of coaching—- we see where this headed -— lets bring in cohwer noooooooooooooooow
by The_New_KC_Chiefs on Nov 7, 2009 3:40 PM CST reply actions
Yeah if you can't win after seven games in the NFL....
with no Oline, a system change on Defense, 2 Receivers who rank in the top 10 for dropped passes, a depleted secondary, a washed up RB who averages 2 yards per carry and can’t control his mouth then you should be fired.
You think Cowher wants any of this? Haley will get at least 3 years unless he pulls an LJ.
Pioli would have to go too...
Cowher wants full control.
No one ever says, "It's only a game" when their team is winning.
George Carlin-R.I.P.
by idahochieffan on Nov 7, 2009 4:17 PM CST up reply actions
I don't think its happened yet
But I have said all along, if you are going to be a disciplinarian coach, you better produce results. Players will put up with all kinds of crap if it leads to them winning, but if they’re being treated like crap and still losing, the coach loses credibility.
Haley is in a precarious situation here. On the one hand, he talks tough, but he has not backed up his tough talk when it mattered. For example, he benched Bowe in preseason, but as soon as the games started counting for real, Bowe is still out there despite continued drops.
If LJ comes back from suspension and is inserted right back into his regular spot in the lineup as though nothing happened, the players are going to know he’s a paper tiger. If he just takes everything that LJ puts out there and lets it happen without there being any real consequences (losing 1 paycheck? Big deal) the players aren’t going to take him seriously.
As I’ve said before, good coaches know how to motivate and deal with their players naturally. They don’t just copy the moves that some better coach did.
Thats what bothers me most about Haley. It’s like he has a list of things that Parcells did:
- Withhold team logo from helmets until they “earn” it? check.
- Put star players on the bench and play practice squad fodder in their place? check.
- Get “fed up” with the players and walk the coaches off the practice field so the players run their own practice? check.
- Put weird motivational posters on the walls to shame players? check.
Haley is copying someone else when he has done all these things. He is not coming up with anything remotely original to motivate the guys. Whats worse is that his timing is horrible. I have no problem with the signs. But to put up that sign during the LJ thing and claim it had nothing to do with it and even worse, if he were to allow LJ to come back and play after the suspension, just all screams amature to the players.
all those things you mentioned
if he did copy them he copied them for a reason: they worked somewhere before. Who knows how many original stuff he has tried? I for one see them trying, Brian Waters stepped up and told Haley that the players need to be in full pads after a loss. Mike Vrabel is constantly running up and the sideline. Im sure if Haley was threatened by any of this he would tell them to back off.
Pioli probably has a great say in the stuff Haley has done as well. I mean after all it was Pioli who stayed after the game against Dallas and tried to motivate the fans, who went to a Chiefs bar in Philly. Pioli is playing the mommy and Haley is playing the daddy. Seems like a good combo to me
and copying success is something that every team does
its everywhere in the NFL. The problem we have is Herm was to soft, which may have rubbed off on some fans, and now we have subpar players. Everyone keeps saying “no one will come here to play for Haley” I disagree, maybe he is acting this way because of the trash on the roster, and once him and Pioli have their guys in place, “winners” we wont have to meddle over this sign business
Who on this team...
has the right to question Haley or Pioli’s decisions? Outside of Vrabel and Brown, who on the current roster has seen a superbowl other than on tv? Haley and Pioli have enjoyed a tremendous amount of success and been associated with some of the greatest minds in football history. Those that question and mock the coach, gm or even the sign doesn’t need/want to be a part of the KC Chiefs.
by chiefs fan in stl on Nov 7, 2009 5:15 PM CST reply actions
There are also many players
That have done much more for this franchise than pioli or haley has….. Have you never had a boss that you thought was a total idiot, that obviously had no idea what he was doing???? well unfortunately…. along with that million dollar paycheck haley is bringing in comes with extra public and private scrutiny
yes, Pioli and Haley have been associated with some of the greatest minds in football history ...
… that doesn’t make THEM the greatest minds in football history, regardless of what they’d like us to believe …
has it crossed your mind that it ws Belichick in New England and not Pioli? have you thought maybe it was Warner and Boldin and a ton of others in Arizona in a fluke run and not Haley? have you ever imagined that just because someone KNOWS Bill Parcells or even married his daughter that the guy is NOT Bill Parcells? or that a guy with ZERO experience as HC might NOT make the best HC his first time out and has no business trying to also be OC?
as part of a TEAM every single person has not only the RIGHT but the DUTY to question decisions! you want a team? then you give control and voice to the team, to the players … you want a little 2-bit let’s play football dress-up dictatatorship? you run it like Pioli and Haley …
’nuff said
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Someone has to direct the play or it is a total wreck.
Clark Hunt hired Pioli/Haley to do that job. Credentials is all you got when you get a job.
These guys have better than most in that regard. Now you got 50+ guys that make up the team that won 6 games in two seasons and you want to let them “Vote” on how to steer the ship?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 7, 2009 10:58 PM CST up reply actions
That's Not What He Was Saying
Just because you’re saying that the captain is driving the ship onto the shore doesn’t mean he wants to turn the ship over to the entire crew to run…he’s just saying that particular captain’s the problem.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
not saying they should "steer the ship" per se ... but Captain Haley needs to treat his crew well lest there be Mutiny on the Bounty
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Stay consistent and within the company line
Haley should have keep quite and stayed with the company line of " We are trying to change the culture of losing. We want football players that want to and play like winners on and off the football field. If there are players in this locker room that don’t believe in what we are doing, my office is always open for a two way discussion. What I don’t like is people that act or play like losers. Everyone knows the history of this team in recent years. I am trying to get this organization back to it’s glory days when playing for and winning championships were the only things that were acceptable. I want players that what to part of that. I believe we have a team that is close to doing that but yet when we take steps forward, it takes 2 steps backwards and those backward steps have cost us games we should have won. Everyone on this team knows their role. If they don’t understand that role then they need to come to my office so I can tell them".
by NFL season ticket holder on Nov 7, 2009 5:57 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Rec Hear hear
Print it up and put it in the Chow hall !
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
I think Haley is just a placeholder until they can lure some high profile coach into KC
I’m sure Pioli would jettson him just like he did Gonzalez if the right opportunity opened up
he has been pretty liberal about player movement...
What makes us think he won’t be so impatient with Haley? good point man….
not so sure that Pioli didn't/doesn't see Haley as Little Tuna ... which is why Haley was brought in to begin with
and if that’s the case, he’ll do all he can to “protect” his Little Tuna … and cover for him if and when possible … and so the Player-Go-Round will continue, talent is expendable if the player doesn’t “fit the mold” of The Right 53 (whatever that is, I assume it means a player who wouldn’t say $hit if he had a mouthful and, of course, never EVER questions ANYTHING)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
So, when does the Cowher talk start up? End of season? Earlier? If not him then whom? Jeff Fisher? Do you think any incoming coach would have to have some sort of Pioli tie? Lots of questions if the Chiefs can consider canning Haley after one year. I believe its more than the “right 53” maybe the “right 54 guys” if you add the head coach into that.
Joe
I think the cowher talk
Started long ago…. but I’m pretty sure he wanted full control….. Who knows what’s right at this point…. To be honest… most coaches would be set up to fail in the situation Todd Haley is in…. but Not all of them would have been arrogant pricks coming in…..
I dont care
if they do or dont like it, by god. Its the truth, and anyone who knows football, or team sports knows that you have to be together, win or lose, in good times and bad….as a family. A positive attitude will cary you through the tough times but it has to be a majority. I’m not saying it was the smartest move, but if you think of the team first, then you will see it daily, and when you want to complain…remember it and keep your mouth shut. Players need to ask them selves, “what can I do?” Complaining and griping, mocking and poking fun never does anything to help anyone. ever. Being positive and proactive, controlling only the things you can control? Usually does in one way or another.
I agree that everyone needs to be on the same page...
but do you really the the passive aggressive juvenile signs do anything but serve as a divisive tool…. it’s not a uniter…. it will only create a further division in the locker room
its possible
it may divide even further. like i said, maybe not the smartest move. I just think the message is absolutely the truth, and i wish grown men knew it, and practiced it. It disturbes me to read what Bill Maas stated. I realize its not HS football anymore but you learn these principles in HS and in college, to prepare for the real world as a professional, if its as a football player, or a janitor. The guys that poke fun, and mock, and declare that they arent children and “dont treat us like a child”….wrong attitude. If you’re getting paid millions you ought to have to do whatever you’re told to do, within reason and i dont think influencing a positive attitude is too much to ask.
Maas has no credibility.
He’s effectively saying he wouldn’t have appreciated it if he were a player.
Big deal.
by GonzosDirtyTrailer on Nov 7, 2009 10:04 PM CST reply actions
I don't think this matters, honestly.
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
While I don't think attacking Maas' character is relevant here,
was he or Whitlock ever a part of a championship team at any level? Why don’t we ask players that know what it takes to win a Super Bowl?
(because KC doesn’t have any)
:(
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
we're gonna have to delve pretty far back to find
A former chiefs player that had a superbowl ring….. All in all, there are too many people that are forgetting that maas has done a lot more for this organization than Haley has…. You can cite his superbowl ring as an accomplishment but in reality, there are alot of people in the NFL that have won rings riding the coattails of superstar players
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