Colin Brown

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 11:56 AM CST

Well I've been trying to figure out where he fits on the O-line, and finding anything on him is a pain unless you go back to his days at MU.

Here's the good on his scouting report. Both scouting reports are from cbssports.com

Tall with a strong frame, with the room to add more bulk and strength. Good initial kick-slide; his lateral movement on zone plays is also better than expected. Has a wide base in pass protection. Will stick onto his man if landing his hands on his jersey. Resets hands inside to maintain anchor if quarterback holds onto the ball. Able to angle a defender out of the inside gap to open huge running and passing lanes. Adjusts inside, getting his hands up quickly to help on end-tackle twists. Despite his height, Brown cuts his man effectively when needed.

Sounds like he was drafted with Cassel in mind on pass protection.

To me that sounds like a LG or a LT.

Now on to the bad.

Plays too tall at times, and tends to bend at the waist. Does not play as strong as you'd expect for his size, and can get out-leveraged on the line and bull-rushed into the quarterback. Quick defensive ends can beat him easily with an inside spin move or hesitation move to the outside. Needs to prove he can get out of a three-point stance as he wasn't asked to do it often. Plays top-heavy, overextending in space and in pass protection, losing his balance. Adequate moving to the second level, at best.

The negatives also push him more towards a backup for the left side of the line, although the coaching staff had him playing right guard. I'm guessing his being bull rushed isn't a strength thing it's a leverage thing exactly as stated. A project pick for the right side of the line, RG possibly eventually moving to RT as his technique improves. All of those problems sound like technique which is very coachable.

I can see why he was moved from tackle to guard based off of the scouting report.

Moving onto his injury, you go over and over the internet and you get undisclosed injury, undisclosed injury. One site said he missed part of the preseason with a shoulder injury before going on injured reserve. When I clicked on it the site had been removed or was down for some reason.

another scouting report this one from http://www.nfl.com/draft/2009/profiles/colin-brown?id=238429

He developed into an all-conference performer at right tackle by his final two seasons, and has the size teams love at that position. Although he's not an elite athlete, Brown's length and relative agility make it tough to beat him on the outside. But Missouri's spread offense makes it difficult to project if he can handle run-blocking duties at the next level.

After walking on at Missouri and redshirting his first season, Brown was awarded a football scholarship before the 2005 season. He saw action in two games as the backup center.

After seeing action in 13 games as a reserve left guard and on special teams in 2006, Brown emerged in 2007 spring drills. After backing up left tackle Tyler Luellen, Brown moved to the right side and won the job in the fall. He was entrenched at the spot for the final two years of his Tigers career.

A huge man at 6-feet-7 and 340 pounds, Brown earned Honorable Mention All-Big 12 in 2007 and built on that with another Honorable Mention campaign as a senior after being named to the Lombardi Award Watch List.

I said just a few days ago I could see Brown being our starting RG next season, now I'm not so sure. What was Brown's injury? What can be done with him while he's on IR, did he lose a whole season or is someone working with him not only on his rehab but on his technique?

I'm pulling for him at RG but maybe Incognito should be brought in so Brown has another year or two to learn the things that will make him our future starter at RT or he could be that back up for us that Wade Smith is. We need Two starters on the O-line, a C and a RG. Waters is getting long in the tooth and at times it shows. Are we going to sign a LG, or draft a LT this year? That's a possibility of needing three starters.

With all the hush, hush around the Chiefs and the way Brown just dropped off the world with no explanation I think he plays a big part on the line next year. The question is, Where?

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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Comments

I have had similar thoughts about him too

I’m not saying he didn’t get injured, but it almost seemed like they knew he wasn’t ready this year so when he was injured they just put him on IR so they wouldn’t have to risk someone claiming him off the practice squad. I’m sure guys on IR are allowed to work with trainers, but I don’t know about coaches.

Feeling "The Love" and "Drinking the Kool AId"

by KCporkchop on Nov 24, 2009 12:09 PM CST reply actions

agreed

* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
* Stats are for losers

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions

yeah the guys on IR are allowed to work with trainers but don’t know about coaches…. that’s where I’m at. Maybe Pioli got him a personal trainer, you know someone like Dave Szott. That’d be nice wouldn’t it?

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 1:23 PM CST up reply actions

Colin Brown is gonna come in next year and make a splash. It dawned on me the other night when Belichick was asked about the injuries to NE’s o-line, he said we have 5 tackles that can play, and it showed. Pioli knows how to draft quality unheralded lineman. He’ll be in at RG i believe.

by RamX21 on Nov 24, 2009 12:17 PM CST reply actions

that seemed to be his best spot in camp

They were working him at RT and RG, If I recall, and he looked better at RG so far.

That being said, it’s very early in his career, obviously, and he could easily change positions more than once before he’s done.

I do agree, though, that he IS in the plans for next year, it’ll be interesting to see where

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 12:27 PM CST up reply actions

Great post!

I think Brown’s a work in progress that will turn up huge for us next year. The man is a monster!

"Every day is an evaluation and if you’re not out there how can we depend on you? If you’re out there and you don’t know what to do, how can we depend on you?" Accountability -- Haley-style...

by Chief_Elmo on Nov 24, 2009 12:37 PM CST reply actions

He sounds more like a RT in the long term

Although the speed and quickness he has is valuable for a guard, when you are running zone blocking, you need a tackle with some of the speed too. For a zone-right running play, you do not want your guard to run over your tackle. The quick slide step and footwork is also valuable for a tackle to take on some of the quick DE. The leverage issue is something that is VERY coachable and could be easily corrected. I think that strength may be more of the reason he is working more at guard than tackle. There are very few OL (and DL for that matter) that come out of college that have the physical stregth to compete with the top NFL linemen. A few years in the weight room and some good coaching and he could become a pro-bowl type tackle.

by chiefsandcigars on Nov 24, 2009 1:34 PM CST reply actions

Look at the tackles that came out last year

Long, Clady, Albert, Baker, Otah, they all came out and had fairly good to great rookie campaigns. I don’t know if I buy that the rookies coming out aren’t strong enough to play against the top linemen, I think if anything is lacking it’s technique.

I wouldn’t be ready to send Brown to the pro-bowl any time soon, that may giving him too much credit right now. I think he could turn into a solid right tackle, RG, or a very, very good swing tackle.

Look ahead to next year, Niswanger and Goff are probably gone. Will Waters be here, or will he get his trade?

If Waters gets his trade. Do we go after Incognito to man our right guard position, give Brown our left guard position? Do we go after Mankins and let Brown man the RG position? Then draft 2 young tackles to groom for the outside and a young Center to start right away?

I think Incognito makes more sense, once a rookie LT proves he’s ready to take over for Albert, Albert slides over and pushes Brown out of his starting gig and then he can work on being a true tackle.

Next year I think we have one big free agent pickup on the O-line, trade Waters, cut Goff, and let Niswanger walk. Our big thing is where will Brown play in, I think he’s our LG at the beginning of next year. There’s a report that says Albert isn’t thought of as a true LT, so I would bet that we draft a LT and a C, and O’Cal has been solid but I don’t think he’s the future, so a RT could be taken early on. I’d prefer Black at LT, Jason Fox RT, and Wisniewski or O’Dowd at C. Both rookie T’s would have time to develop, but the center would be thrown right into the fire.

Albert, Brown, Wisniewski, Incognito, O’Callaghan at the beginning of the season
Black, Albert, Wisniewski, Incognito, Fox at the end of the season with
Brown, O’Callaghan, and Smith/Ndukwe/Alleman/or Richardson playing backup. The hard part would be picking who made the last position or 2 on OL next year as backups. That’d be real nice wouldn’t it?

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 4:24 PM CST up reply actions

wouldn't Mankins be more likely, and better than Incognito?

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions

We have Waters and Albert who can both play LG, Mankins is a LG, If Waters is traded Albert could still play LG. Why bring in another one?

By his scouting report Brown is more of a pass blocking guy than a run blocking guy, although I could see Brown doing well on traps, and draw plays. He might be better suited as a stopgap at LG until a Rookie could take his snaps at LT, moving Albert over to LG, and Brown could move to a back up position.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 6:47 PM CST up reply actions

I'm not sure how big of a difference there is between LG and RG

But, I’m guessing that Mankins could play RG.

Otherwise T. Lutui from AZ would be an option at RG.

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 7:06 PM CST up reply actions

Most of what I’ve heard on LG is it’s more of a finesse position. On the left side you want guys with great technique. On the right side your quarterback can see everything coming, so you get your maulers on the right side, guys that play with a mean streak. I used to have a page book marked written by an O-lineman that had played every position along the line.

Your best pass rushing DE and DT will usually line up on the quarterbacks blind side so your LT and to a lesser extent your LG will be on an island in pass protection. On the right side the QB can see the rush coming so your likely to see the less talented rushers coming from that side so not as likely to need perfect technique on that side.

TE’s line up next to the RT, extra man to block so less pressure coming from the right side. But the right side is usually the physically stronger side, from C to TE you have four guys going against a DT, a DE, an OLB, and a MLB in the rushing game.

The left side is built for finesse more athletic guys with better technique, and the right side is built for power, your bigger stronger linemen that play with a chip on their shoulders. The center has the easiest job as far as blocking goes, but is the most intellectual position along the line, unless it’s LT.

Picture Waters standing next to Shields a few yrs back, Shields looked much bigger and stronger than Waters, yes Shields had great technique, but Shields was more of a mauler, and Waters was more of a pass protection guy. Shields was a natural guard, Waters was a TE converted to G. Bigger and stronger on the right side, smaller and quicker on the left side.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 7:41 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs

nice explanation, thanks!

I’ll give you a rec for that effort.

That MIGHT explain why, Albert and Waters should stay on the left side… probably at LT and LG… (some people think Albert should move to RT, but I don’t think he’s built for it, and the transition would be very difficult, especially at his lower weight)

Brown could be a mauler, given the chance… and his history is on the Right side, so I’d like to see him either RG or RT.

I’d still like to give Ndukwe a shot at RG… That really just leaves C as the biggest need for an upgrade this year, with the other positions as “nice to haves”

I think Smith, Niswanger, Brown and Richardson along with Alleman provide great depth.

the starters can still be Albert, Waters, Rookie, Ndukwe, O’Callaghan
Unless a big FA can be landed, or a LT is taken in rounds 1 or 2…which, obviously, would change everything.

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 7:53 PM CST up reply actions

Rec

Ithink in our gut we know that but we need to take it to heart.
Leave Albert and Waters alone, if not broke we have better places to expend effort :)

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 24, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions

Didn't Shields play LG?

And Shields one weakness was the bull rush. He was one of the best pulling guards ever, though.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 24, 2009 10:58 PM CST up reply actions

Shields played RG

Szott played LG and Waters Played LG. Back in the 90’s before the fans got to vote on pro bowl selections the entire raiders DL voted for Szott, Grunhard and Shields to go to the pro bowl.

You say shields was prone to the bull rush, I can’t remember his name but SD had a hell of a DT that lined up over Shields, the raiders had McGlockton, Seattle had Cortez Kennedy, I can’t remember who Denver had in the 90’s but the afc west was constantly looking for DT’s that could match up with Grunhard, Shields and Szott to disrupt our running game. Russell Maryland was brought in among others. We were spoiled while Marty and Gunther, and Vermiel were here, they believed in a strong O-line, to pound the ball to set up the pass.

Now we know what tampa felt like in the 90’s.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 25, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions

If only Marty had paid more mind to left tackle, maybe he'd've progressed in the playoffs more.

Pretty sure you’re right about the Szott era, but for some reason I have this image of Shields being manhandled by Jumpy Geathers at left guard after Szott moved east.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 25, 2009 11:25 PM CST up reply actions

I don't remember who the other guard was after Szott moved east

But Jumpy Geathers having a hell of a day on anyone doesn’t surprise me. Jumpy was a hot and Cold guy, one day he’d look like he belonged in the Hall of Fame, the next 2 sundays he’d just dissappear and seemed to have his best days against great O-linemen then he’d play down to average guys.

Geathers gave Guy McIntyre Fits, he gave Nate Newton hell, so it doesn’t surprise me that he gave Shields a tough day. Tampa had a guard, I thought Geathers would have 5 sacks on in one game he was so bad, Tampa’s guard who everyone said needed replaced man handled Geathers all day.

Jumpy wasn’t exactly someone you could measure yourself against as an o-linemen, because you never knew who was going to show up.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 26, 2009 11:57 AM CST up reply actions

Kind of a yo-yo player, but Shields was a pulling guard - one of the best all-time.

He just was vulnerable to the bull rush.

I just get this twinge when people talk about Marty’s great lines and those “great lines” never progressed in the playoffs without a dominant left tackle. And Marty never fixed the position after John Alt retired.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 26, 2009 10:32 PM CST up reply actions

I have to agree with you there

by mcclanahanman on Nov 27, 2009 12:39 AM CST up reply actions

No, you don't, but I'm obliged that you felt obliged.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 27, 2009 4:40 PM CST up reply actions

I was just wondering about Brown the other day

thanks for the info

That would be great if he could doing some good things next year

Will Ebners Hit Parade, Pain TV; Channel 32; All the time! (PDT)

by MarioVanPeebles Republic of China on Nov 24, 2009 3:27 PM CST reply actions

maybe he could play nose tackle

or free safety too!

by SillyHatDay on Nov 24, 2009 3:41 PM CST reply actions

Why did we even take this guy? Lol...

It’s a serious question too…not a smartass one…

by Wrestler189s on Nov 24, 2009 4:55 PM CST reply actions

they obviously saw something they liked

he’s a hard worker and he’s HUGE, and a good pass blocker…

sounds like a draftable OL prospect to me

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions

But the article shows that he has way more negatives than positives...

I guess they see something i dont. I just hope he can play next year that way we didnt completely waste a draft pick.

by Wrestler189s on Nov 24, 2009 5:02 PM CST reply actions

hope so too...

I’m holding on to a lot of hope for Brown along with Lawrence, Williams, Washington, Magee and (to a MUCH lesser extent, O’Connell)

I think they were all drafted for a reason… I hope that we see that reason next year, and get more production from the 09 draft class

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions

I think Lawrence, Williams, Magee, and Brown (I hope) will do fine...

but i think Washington was a very very bad choice for a pick….They drafted him because of his athletic ability, and not any other reason…

by Wrestler189s on Nov 24, 2009 5:31 PM CST reply actions

I think Washington was brought in

More for his size and his range on the field. I think this defense will rely on more physical corners in the future, guys that will play bump and run, throw off timing routes. Bigger guys that can challenge the more physical receivers for jump balls. Washington could still be a diamond in the rough. I think Haley and Pioli are drafting and signing specific type players to play an aggressive style of defense.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 7:00 PM CST up reply actions

he has the physical tools

But he needs a LOT of coaching up.

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 7:07 PM CST up reply actions

He was a soph

This might be a two year project. Might explain why he hasn’t seen the field as a Safety.

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 24, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions

Dude won't even make final cuts next year

Mark my words, turds.

Welcome to Chiefs REBUILD - Version 2.0 /The Clark Hunt Edition
Chiefs will be lucky to go 4-12 in 2010

by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2009 6:09 PM CST reply actions

who you callin a turd?

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 6:59 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah, who you Colin a turd?

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 24, 2009 7:19 PM CST up reply actions

nice pun, buddy :)

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 7:25 PM CST up reply actions

Exc!

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 24, 2009 8:24 PM CST up reply actions

Hey let's see how good Pioli really is. He obviously researched these guys.

Obviously. They were guys he had looked at for NE. Now he brought them here. Which is no doubt why he up’d Jackson in the draft. I mean I’m sure he knew Belichek wanted Tyson and wasn’t going to let him get away. He had insider info from being there when they were discussing who to draft over at NE.

by krayfish on Nov 24, 2009 8:02 PM CST reply actions

I think Tyson was a need in the 3-4 transition

Maybe a premature transition but it is what it is. Jackson will be fine in the role of Smith.
Make the O-line block him and DT/Hali hope he can be sack the QB.

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 24, 2009 8:28 PM CST up reply actions

I think we take a serious look at McCoy and Suh this year

Seymour is a FA, Dorsey is looking good this year. In the 3-4 you essentially have 3 DT’s playing on the line.

Seymour comes in as a Starter, McCoy or Suh as the understudy and Dorsey gets traded bringing in another second and third so we can address more holes.

I think we’re picking #5 this year, with Russell out in Oakland, as bad as I hate to say it I think we’re last in our division. Cleveland, St. Louis, Detroit, and Tampa picking ahead of us, Cleveland and St. Louis will probably go QB, Detroit will probably take Okung with tampa taking, Suh or a DE, possibly Berry or Mays. Even if Washington trades up, they’re going QB hunting.

I know DE is not a position of need and Dorsey looks like he’s doing great………..and he is. But if you can bring in Seymour and draft McCoy or Suh. Dorsey becomes very expendable in an uncapped year. If you can send Dorsey to Cleveland or to Detroit (gunther’s there remember), or to Tampa, that would ensure that one if not both of those DT’s would fall to you. Cleveland has a buttload of picks and Dorsey would be an instant upgrade there, Tampa has 2 seconds if I’m thinking right, and Detroit might take that trade with Cunningham being the DC there. One trade might shape the whole top end of the first round. Giving us 2 more picks that can go on O-line, NT, WR, CB, or Safety. 2 more holes filled, and depth and the future along the D-line addressed.

With the addition of 2 picks we could take 2 tackles in the second, and a NT or CB, in the third we could take a CB and a center. Round 4 we could take a WR, or a DE/OLB, and a TE, WR, ILB in the fifth. Then again DJ is a RFA this year and his rights will probably be dealt for a 2nd or 3rd.

With 4 free agent pickups we can draft for depth and the future. The extra picks won’t hurt any either.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 24, 2009 10:19 PM CST up reply actions

again with this?

Seymour may be a FA… but do you really think Oakland is stupid enough to trade a 1st round pick, then let him walk after 1 yr? for their sake, I hope not.

Why not keep Dorsey, and not draft another 4-3DT to try and convert to the 3-4 DE position? both McCoy and Suh are 4-3 guys, Ideally, IMO

by stagdsp on Nov 24, 2009 10:26 PM CST up reply actions

Yea? They paid D'Angelo Hall 70 mil...

Then cut him mid-season. Oakland is liable to do just about anything.

"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech

by ArrowSpread on Nov 24, 2009 10:56 PM CST up reply actions

Yeah, an awful lot of moving parts, there.

We debated/argued about Suh the other day, and the one thing I can say for thinking as hard as mcclanahanman is about this is the possibility that Suh is a once-in-a-great-while talent that you just can’t say no to. While everything you’re saying makes total sense from a “system” point of view, I’m going to keep my mind open to exceptions, insofar as as I’m influenced by the vehemence of some fellow APers (although the more emotional the rants are, the more I discount them, still the man-love-for-Suh voices are at LEAST smart enough to frequent AP).

Myself, I see an esprit de corps developing amongst the currently constituted d-line, and would kind of like to see that plays out, with the plan of adding a true, beast of a 100% 3-4 NT to the mix, and spend the rest of my energy on OL, WR, DB, and a blocking TE who will always make the easy catches and only be thrown to when he’s ignored. When a DOMINANT d-lineman (Buck Buchanan, Richard Dent, Charles Haley, Reggie White, Russell Maryland) comes along, all bets are off, because they’re the players on which dynasties are built.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 24, 2009 11:22 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs

Suh and McCoy both have the Frame of a 3-4 DE, and are Taller DT’s in the 4-3. Longer arms to match up with the Tackles of the nfl whenever their assignment calls for it. Both are amazing big men that are more suited to the 3-4 DE slot than Dorsey is. While Dorsey is showing to be above average in his DE position, both Suh and McCoy look like they could be greats with Suh having the advantage in talent. You win Championships with Defense and the defense lives and dies with the line.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 25, 2009 12:59 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

rec

You win Championships with Defense and the defense lives and dies with the line.

But trading Dorsey who has exceptionally long arms would set us back in the developement process. Now a FA NT would speed up the Developement process. Suh will be gone to Tampa or somewhere before we pick. We need to look at OLB or ILB with the pick we probably will have.

We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09. Almost there :)
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Skins & Raiders! Pittsburgh Sweet!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram

by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 25, 2009 8:23 PM CST up reply actions

I think it comes down to whether one of these would be a clear upgrade over Dorsey.

And whether the fallout would be worth the trouble. Still early enough in the game for Pioli to want it to be 100% absolutely right.

As Steve says below (I guess above my comment), Dorsey has long arms for his height. And looking at the way the d-line is starting to mix it up, with different guys playing all up and down the line, it may be that adding another top-drawer rookie would make ’em take a step backwards.

Personally, I see a pretty solid core group, in need of a mountain-in-the-middle NT like Cody. I’m really proud of the way Ron Edwards has stepped up this year, but just a teensy bit more stout in the middle would free up the DEs, more, and give LBs more predictability as to the attack lane(s) they want to use, but more importantly, the lanes they will not have to worry about as much.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 25, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions

Cody isn't worth the #9 pick

There’s too many questions about him, he has Ryan Sims written all over him when I look at him. He’s HUGE, talented, Fat, Lazy. Sign Hampton, Wilfork, or Jolley (? or is he GB’s DE that is going to be a FA?), take Mt. Cody in round 2 or another NT in round 2 or 3 or wait for next year.

There will be some DE’s in rounds 2-4 that will play OLB that are similarly talented to the guys you can pull in at #10. That’s the great part about this draft. You can probably pull in a guy that would go in round one next year in early round 4 this year.

If we go ILB it’ll be in the later rounds. Depending on if we rise and fall in this years draft, and we have the team that can go either way. Trade Dorsey to Tampa, so Suh and McCoy Falls our way, get one of their seconds and a third, let them take Berry or Mays.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 26, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions

Suh is 6'4, 305lbs or so

Thats about the frame of a 3-4 DE. Look around the leagues starting DE’s and you’ll notice that is the case the MAJORITY of the time.

However, 3-4 Nose tackles are bigger, weight wise. Hampton is 6’1 but hes 325lbs. Wilfork is 6’2, 325lbs.

Alot of people were talking about Dorsey gaining weight to be a NT. Hes got the frame for it..hes a little shorter than a typical 3’4 DE is..if he were heavier..he’d be in the target area for a 3-4 NT. I just dont think he could handle it..but I’ve been wrong before. And I highly doubt we draft ANOTHER DL with a top pick this year.

Wilfork and Hampton both have a decent shot at making FA. Logan Mankins also has a decent shot at making FA. Brian Waters is capable of playing C and thats actually been talked about as a natural transition as he got older. That leaves a hole to fill at RG, possibly RT, and you have a stop gap at C. Therefore, you can worry about the right side of the line for this season and have a chance to upgrade C next year. We have other holes to fill besides OL too and I wouldnt want to see us go all out on OL in the draft.

Thats why I like Albert, Mankins, Waters, Brown/Rookie, O’Call/FA/Rookie. However, if Waters is NOT retained, get a RG in the early 2nd, and a C in the 3rd, leave O’Call at RT. First round pick..considering the places we could use an upgrade and the positions the top talent play, I think Eric Berry is a missing peice to the defense..and a legit reason to think so.

Look around the league at the top defenses. Polamalu. Reed. Sharper. Dawkins. (well they WERE a top defense..) most great defenses have a big playmakings Safety. Eric Berry fits the bill.

It just doesnt make sense to draft Suh. I mean, we have Dorsey..T-Jack..and Magee..3 draft picks in the last 2 years. We need a NT..which Suh is NOT. What kind of value is a top 5 draft pick if you trade him for a 2nd and 3rd rounder, not even giving him a chance to transition to the NFL? You dont trade away a top 5 pick after only 2 years of playing the toughest position to transition to from college to the NFL. Dorsey has improved quite a bit over last year, AND hes playing in a brand new scheme. Keep him, get a NT and our DL is FINE.

The only other choice besides Berry..I think is a LT. You can figure out the LG/RG situation later, and if all else fails, trade someone..but you can never have too many good offensive linemen. I’m sure Makins or Albert..hopefuly Mankins..could learn to play ..or can play.. RG.

So..I say 1st round..draft the best playmaker..I cant say except for Suh..I just dont think its the way to go. But take the best playmaker on the defensive side of the ball.

What did Pioli build in NE? A dominant defense, with a decent offense and a hell of a kicker. Hell, the Pats probably could be said to of won atleast 1 superbowl BECAUSE they had such a great kicker. How many OT/4th quarter game winners did he hit?

THEN he built the offense, Brady was evolved..brought in Moss and Welker and Brady puts up a record season. I think hes doing the same thing. Hes going to build up a great defense, hes got his kicker..after the defense..time to build the offense. But I still think hes going to upgrade the OL to protect his QB..I just think the big playmakers need to be on the defensive side of the ball for now.

by Petey14 on Nov 27, 2009 2:24 AM CST up reply actions

The thing is, a second and a third this year is probably like getting a one and a 2 next year, or two ones next year.

Next year’s draft pool will be much more shallow because the rookies are thinking that next year there will be a rookie pay scale so they’re comin out this year. Would you rather have a 1 and a 2 from a shallow pool, or a 2 and a 3 from a deep one?

Lets say we get a Fourth out of DJ, he’s a RFA, trade his rights.

Round 1 Take Suh or McCoy, trade dorsey for a 2 and a 3
Round 2 Jason Fox, RT
Round 2 Allen S
Round 2 Williams NT
Round 3 Black OT
Round 3 George Selvie DE/OLB
Round 4 Wisniewski C
Round 4 Cox CB/KR
Round 5 Peek TE
Round 5 ILB
Round 5 DE/OLB

by mcclanahanman on Nov 27, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions

OR

we could just KEEP DORSEY and not trade him at all. Like I said.. top 5 pick..playing the TOUGHEST POSITION TO TRANSITION TO IN THE NFL..is LOSING value if you trade him 2 seasons later. I wouldnt settle for anything less than a mid to late round first rounder, especially when you consider how much he’s improved over last year, even though hes playing in a completely different system. Thats the ONLY way I would trade Dorsey..a first round pick.

And what are you talking about? I never said anything about draft picks for next year. If we trade Dorsey..the only way I’d trade him is for a 1st rounder..this year. Mid to late 1st round. That’d give us 2 first rounds, 2 second rounds…4 picks on day 1.

Why do you want to fill holes that arent there? The ONLY HOLE on the DL is NT..so why do we want to keep drafting DE’s and trading the ones we have? Thats ridiculous, and gets you nowhere. We can either get a NT in the draft or likely FA..the DE’s need to be left alone. Suh is going to take 2-3 years to develop just like T-Jack and Dorsey are..rookie DL’s have a LOW IMPACT in the first 2-3 years..especially the DT’s in a 4-3 or NT’s & DE’s in a 3-4. I would MUCH rather have a high impact playmaker on defense..someone whos not going to take 3 years to really make an impact..a player who plays a position like Safety.

You say that players like Suh only come around so often..it was just 2 years ago that Dorsey was getting as much hype as Suh is now. Eric Berry is more of a Rare talent that Suh is. There are big DL’s who come out every 2 or 3 years. I cant even remember the last time a Safety was as good as Berry has been.

The DL is fine as it is..we just need a NT. Getting rid of Dorsey and drafting Suh just sets our defense back even further. 3-4 defenses start up front, and we all know that players who play up front take longer to develop..so our top pick..would have a low impact..AGAIN..the defense would still struggle next year and we’ll be a shitty team next year too.

Look at it this way. We have an opportunity to land Mankins, Wilfork and Dansby. Wilfork and Dansby immediately improve the front 7. We dont have a big playmaker in the secondary. So get Berry. THEN, 2nd round can be used to finish upgrading the OL. That would mean that in 2 offseasons, Pioli has rebuilt the OL and DL. The rest falls into place.

Your scenario..we bring in Suh to take a position that we have already filled, trade the guy who filled it, draft a NT also..take 2 T’s in the first 3 rounds, a C in the 4th and ignore RG?

I just dont see where that makes sense. And to my knowledge, teams dont “trade” a RFA’s rights. Other teams throw an offer at him and unless the Chiefs match it, the team who made the offer signs him. If I were another team, I wouldnt trade for a RFA..id make an offer and atleast make the Chiefs resign him first..that way the team who is trying to get him doesnt have to worry about a contract negotiation.

by Petey14 on Nov 27, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions

I look at it like this

Yeah Suh will be a step down from Dorsey for a year, that’s why I rave like a mad man about bringing in Seymour at DE and, Hampton, or Jolley, or Wilfork at NT so there is no drop off when you draft two young D-Linemen.

Your RG is on the team as we speak, Colin Brown is on IR. Mankins isn’t a RG, mankins is a LG, sure he could be flopped to RG, but you’re taking a pass protection guy and asking him to go into run blocking. You want to go sign a RG nab Incognito.

You don’t think I haven’t thought of a lot of what you’re saying? A second and a Third this year would be like trading for a first and a second next year if not two firsts. That’s the depth of this draft. You can get a second round pick lets say #50 in this draft and the player could be every bit as good and highly rated as the number 18 pick is.

You haven’t heard of trading away the rights to a RFA, the Giants and the Chargers did it with the rights of Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers. Where were you that day? New England traded us the Rights to Cassel and we signed him………come on, it can be done and it is done.

You have a boner for Berry I get that, I’d rather have players that fit the defense on the line, with as much upside in this defense as Dorsey was supposed to have in the 4-3. Allen could play FS at a pro-bowl level, maybe not the safety that Berry will be but will still be an instant upgrade for us.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 27, 2009 6:30 PM CST up reply actions

You want to go into my twisted lil mind a lil deeper?

I can see Flowers being traded this year or next year, Carr being traded and Carlos Rogers being brought in, Bowe being traded for a first and a third or fourth, and Dez Bryant being drafted. DJ’s rights being traded, Dorsey being traded, and Waters being traded.

If you think Pioli is going to keep all of Herms guys that you think so much of Petey you’re insane, Pioli is wanting to put his stamp on this team. There will probably be another huge turnover next year, with more than 2 of these key players.

With Washington being drafted, I think they’re looking for bigger more physical corners than flowers and more athletic than Carr.

With the switch to the 3-4 Dorsey can do it, but he’d probably be happier in the 4-3, and Suh or McCoy has more upside in a 3-4 than Dorsey does.

There’s so many things Pioli can tinker with and probably will, that will piss you off, and piss me off, but what I’m really interested in is a DE with great upside in Suh or McCoy and two starters in rounds two and 3 and some Vets being brought in to start so these young guys can develop, so there’s no drop off.

I want improvements on the O-Line early and often, with a spattering of talent players here and there, and some FA pickups to go with the 8 to 14 rookie draft picks that could be brought in.

You want to know who I think should be brought in?

Offense, Mark Clayton WR, Incognito a true RG, Lendale White RB, Ben Watson and/or Alge Crumpler TE.

Defense Richard Seymour DE, Wilfork, Hampton, or Jolley at NT, Jolley is GB’s NT in the rotation with BJ Raji, I don’t remember his height 6’2 or 6’3 and 340 lbs. A developed MT. Cody.
ILB Foote and Dansby
CB Carlos Rogers
S Atogwe

by mcclanahanman on Nov 27, 2009 6:59 PM CST up reply actions

For me, it comes down to Dorsey's ceiling.

And how much of an upgrade Suh would be as a true 3-4 DE with all the measurables. If Suh really has more upside than Dorsey, and little or no downside, then OK, I can look past all the moving parts. DE (and DB) are positions where I’m always keen on getting the best player goin’, even if I’m not hurting at the position. And there’ve been a number of times it looked to me like a lone left tackle was essentially neutralizing Dorsey. But I could be misinterpreting what’s happening, depending on the gap and contain responsibilities Dorsey has on that play, which I may be missing. Just seems like on passing downs, things grind to a halt to his side.

But as far as Dorsey’s likes or dislikes, I think he’s starting to have some fun with the different alignments Clancy likes to throw out there. So Petey’s “step backwards” concerns carry some weight with me. Seriously, it’s starting to look like Jax, Magee, Edwards, Gilberry, and Dorsey are starting to have fun out there, because they’re more confident of what they’re doing than opposing offenses are about how to stop ‘em. I’d feel pretty good about the d-line if all they did was either acquire or draft a NT at or near the top end of the talent pool.

My sense of your strategy is that it’s a little Peterson-like, in terms of its level of aggression, and riskiness. A Richard Seymour is the kind of guy (highly talented, high-dollar veteran near the end of his career) that makes me think of Chester McGlockton or Dan Williams. Wilfork less so.

I like your points about DB. Right now they’re kind of stuck with either showing cover-2 or worse, not showing cover-2. Each gives away a lot to a good QB-OC combo.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 27, 2009 9:53 PM CST up reply actions

yeah if I was a gm, I’d be that guy living on the edge this year, normally I’m more content to play it to the chest and pick the safer guys, and build off of what I have but I think there could be so much upside this year, moving a few of our bigger name players.

yeah we’d definately have a shot at only treading water for a year or takeing baby steps forward, but once these kids got it, and both lines took off, I’m sure it’d make our heads spin at how much talent we acquired in one offseason.

As to LenDale White, I’d say he’s a younger version of Rudy Johnson, not Larry Johnson. He’d be that big bruising change of pace back to Jamaal Charles, if the O-Line gets a major overhaul he could be gold for us.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 28, 2009 12:45 AM CST up reply actions

Maybe that'd be the way to go.

My guess is that Pioli will more risk-averse than you would be, Mcclanahanman.

He doesn’t look too afraid to pick a spot or two to be aggressive, but I think it unlikely to see him be aggressive on many fronts at the same time, when the law of averages works against you.

More likely, he’ll make a larger number of smaller moves, with a high probability of hitting on enough of them to come out ahead.

Best thing about your thinking is “early and often” on OL. This could definitely be the offseason when KC stocks up big-time in the 2nd and 3rd round on the OL.

I’ll defer to you on Lendale White, unless he comes with a hefty price tag.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 28, 2009 3:34 PM CST up reply actions

First of all..

Dont insult me. I’m giving you a legit arguement about why Suh should be drafted and youre talking about having “a boner for Berry”. I could say the exact same thing about you for Suh but I didnt..theres no need for that here.

2, who said anything about “herms choices that I care so much about”? I dont look at a player as “herms guy” or “haleys guy”..I look at them as who they are and what they can do..I could care less who brought them into the league.

I’m not going to try and have a conversation with somebody who gets emotional and starts insulting other people because they think their opinion is better. Berry might not even be coming out this year..and guess what? I could care less..I still wouldnt draft Suh and trade Dorsey.

Btw..Larry Foote signed a contract in Detroit last season. He’s not going anywhere..he wants to play for detroit because its his hometown.

And, about the RFA. Cassel wasnt an RFA and neither was Eli. Cassel was an UFA and was Franchised. When youre franchised..you are under contract..not any sort of Free Agent. Cassel was traded to us and we gave him a new contract. Thats not anywhere close to the same thing as “trading for a RFA”.

Eli was a draft pick. He’s not a restricted free agent either. Teams cant make an offer to sign him, like you can a RFA. The only way another team could sign him is IF he were traded, which he was.

Neither of those situations are anything like what youre talking about. Youre talking about straight up trading a RFA. You cant trade any kind of FA..because hes NOT UNDER CONTRACT. However, after a team makes an offer, you can MATCH the offer, sign him to the contract, THEN trade him. Otherwise, if you dont match the offer, the other team signs him. Thats NOTHING like Cassel or Eli’s situation. Any other “examples” of when a RFA was traded? No. Because it doesnt happen. It cant happen. No matter what type of Free Agent it is..they arent under contract..and therefore cant be traded. However, there are “draft rights” meaning only you have the rights to sign the player you draft. The only way a drafted player can be signed by another team is if the draft rights are traded or if the player is cut.

by Petey14 on Nov 28, 2009 7:34 PM CST up reply actions

Correction

“I’m giving you a legit arguement about why Suh shouldnt be drafted

by Petey14 on Nov 28, 2009 7:37 PM CST up reply actions

I'm not going here tonight

Like the other day I have a killer migraine and when i have one I do get snappy so I’m sorry, we disagree big deal who cares.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 29, 2009 12:51 AM CST up reply actions

it does make sense to draft suh

our dline isnt set yet , yes we have other needs but if you are thinking longterm, i think its the best idea to build on your strengths. i think we have seen many examples that you can never have too many dlinemen if you are going to seriously compete for a championship, and the guys you do have there had better be elite and not just pretty good. would i prefer a stud Nt that commands a double team on every play, yes, but where is he?

by NakedBootleg on Nov 29, 2009 12:46 PM CST up reply actions

the raiders don’t really have a choice, they can’t force him to sign a contract, if he wants to leave he’s gone and the raiders are out a first rounder.

by RamX21 on Nov 24, 2009 11:52 PM CST up reply actions

The Right "53"

According to Haley Rudy N. Is a tough son of a gun.He wants to be on the field & is very intelligent.I believe he will finally be tried @ RG his best position.Waters can move to OC.Mankins or Incognito @ LG.Keep Albert & O’Callahan @ LT & RT.This will give the chiefs an expieienced o-line while rebuilding it with the draft or whom we already have on the team.

John Soellner

by chiefs63 on Nov 25, 2009 10:07 AM CST reply actions

Rudy, Rudy, Rudy

Lets say Cirion Black and O’Dowd are brought in through the draft that’s it as far as draft picks go on the O-line.

Cirion Black will probably not start at LT until later in the season, Albert will hold down the LT spot until the coaches are comfortable with Black.

Waters at LG, until Black is promoted to LT then Albert takes over at LG.

at C you’re going to play O’Dowd.

Why bring Mankins? He’s a LG do you really need 3 LG’s?

RG, Incognito if he’s brought in, Colin Brown, Ndukwe. Your RG needs to be a mauler, not a finesse guy.

RT O’Callaghan is solid, nothing flashy, but Fox could be brought in to back him up until he’s ready to take over.

I’d say 1 free agent on OL, and an immediate starter at RG being brought in through FA, and a Starting C in the draft I don’t care if it’s O’Dowd, I’d be happy with Wisniewski in round 3 or 4. Take 2 young bluechip tackles in round 2, with Albert and O’Callaghan they don’t have to be thrown into the fire immediately. A gradual transition along the line at the tackle spots and LG spot.

Rudy might be a Tough son of a gun, but Rudy sucks.

With the way Cassel Holds the ball we’re going to need 5 great o-linemen, and 4 solid starting calibur backups.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 25, 2009 12:29 PM CST up reply actions

Richie Incognito?

DO NOT WANT

He’s one of the dumbest, dirtiest players in the NFL. He gets at least one drive killing personal foul call in every game for the Rams, usually more. He gets fined for late hits and unnecessary roughness. And when he’s not getting penalized, he’s not good enough to look past all that stuff. I’m all for linemen with a mean streak, but this guy can’t seem to control his anger.

“Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.” -Yoda

by Soria's Unibrow on Nov 25, 2009 12:38 PM CST up reply actions

Put a shock collar on him and give the trigger to the O-line coach, maybe that’d help bring him out of it.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 25, 2009 2:26 PM CST up reply actions

Watching Mawae play, I couldn't believe how quick his feet were.

Jimmy Johnson’s dominant O-Lines featured behemoth Gs and a 260ish C.

Other than C, I think KC might be pretty much done on interior line, for the time being, looking for something to work out between the guys they kept and the late additions (Ndukwe, Alleman, O’Callaghan). What little I saw from Brown suggests to me that he doesn’t quite have the feet to ever start at either tackle position. I can definitely see going to the well for a tackle, just to put a Pioli stamp on the offense, whatever the Albert fallout might be. Depends largely on whether the Chiefs pick falls before or after the drop-off in OT, if I were callin’ the shots.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 25, 2009 11:46 PM CST up reply actions

I’d rather nab 2 offensive tackles in round 2, two big guys that can learn behind Albert and O’Callaghan.

If the coaching staff doesn’t feel Albert is really left tackle material take a LT. O’Callaghan is solid, but he’s nothing special. He’s a stopgap guy, take a RT. I’d rather these guys be from the second or third round, someone more ready to play so we can see them before mid season.

Round 3 or 4 you should be able to get a solid center, I could even see Wisniewski falling to round 5. There is the problem of is he Steve Wisniewski’s kid? That in itself could make this kid a 3rd round pick.

If Brown can get his technique down, I hope he makes that RG we really desperately need.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 26, 2009 8:44 PM CST up reply actions

I've seen 2 many 1st-round tackle picks that were totally wasted.

2 2nd-round tackles sounds like likely 2 wasted picks. Shortest path to a championship is a dominant left tackle, not just a good left tackle, which is worse than useless when you face the best. I still have a hangover from Peterson’s “best player at the position remaining,” which were wasted picks at left tackle.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 26, 2009 10:42 PM CST up reply actions

What then

trade for Matt Light? I’d agree to shipping out waters for him as long as Light was depth.

There is no dominant LT in this draft not even Okung, but there are some good project tackles that could be dominant LT’s sometime in the future, Possibly even better than Okung. One of the two young tackles I had on my mind was for a RT.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 27, 2009 12:47 AM CST up reply actions

You have more facts backing your college prospect talk.

I’m just talking general principles, here, heavily influenced by Chiefs history.

If you’re to be believed about the entering class of tackles, then I’m discounting any future talk of 1st-round OTs.

I’m fairly confident that Pioli won’t throw away a high pick on a player with much downside.

I’m not at all sure there’s any kind of instant fix at LT that’s going to be signicantly better than Branden Albert. As for the rest of the line, this is sounding like a darn good draft class for shoring up the other 4 positions in the group in 2nd/3rd/4th.

I kinda like DJ for a 4th (or a 3rd). I was dubious the other day when DJ for a 2nd or a 1st was brought up. When it comes to KC LBs, I think this final stretch of games will be key. DJ might finally be with an organization that knows how to develop players. I’m not sure that Cunningham and Co. were that sort.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 27, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions

In the beginning

Carl and Marty did a very good. Am I going to give peterson the credit for that? Hell no.

Marty and Carl put together a GREAT YOUNG STAFF, including some guy named Bill Cowher. They mixed youth and Vets alike in the beginning, towards the end they were more into vets, which was Strams downfall as well.

They got away from the blueprint, and Carl got bad about bringing in guys for their measurables. Then this team started downhill, Carl tried to bring in depth at times, but that young scouting department took better jobs and Carl put his hands into the pot more and more, the more Carl and Gun got involved, the more we lost our way. Alt retireing was the beginning of the end for us you’re right.

We brought in Vermiel, and Vermiel knows how to build a first rate team, he did it in Philadelphia, and he did it in St. Louis, but he was getting up in years when he came to KC and he tried to take shortcuts on the defensive side of the ball that blew up in his face.

Alt retireing, and Roaf retireing was a huge hit for us. There is no shortcut, if they want a LT with upside he’s there in round 2 or round 3 but he’s going to need time to develop and learn the zone blocking scheme, the same with a RT, Wisniewski and O’Dowd could come in and start right away at C but he’s going to go through growing pains in this O-Line too.

If we draft 3 o-linemen, a center and 2 tackles, the only one of the 3 that will be a first day starter will be the C, while the Tackles take time to learn the offense and the zone blocking scheme.

by mcclanahanman on Nov 27, 2009 7:15 PM CST up reply actions

I don't think it was a DECISION to go with more vets.

They were just failing to develop (m)any of their own draft picks. This had them going to the FA well more often than is ideal, not to mention skewing their offensive and defensive schemes in an effort to get the (deficient) players they HAD picked onto the field. Poor scouting, development, and retention when they DID “get a hit” in the draft.

I’m not too sure about your interest in Lendale White. I like him, but a bit too LJ-ish for my taste. If I’m going that big and slow, I want a true fullback.

I think you put your finger on something with Cunningham. While there were always rumblings about how he wasn’t getting the players he wanted, I think that Cunningham definitely put his (inferior) stamp on defensive talent. (Un)Related to this was how he singlehandedly took over and dismantled KC’s effort to acquire a decent placekicker. His brilliant idea of having competing kickers holding for one another sheer genius.

No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.

by hmills110 on Nov 27, 2009 10:02 PM CST up reply actions