The Case for Patience for the Chiefs
by RDOGuy on Nov 2, 2009 8:27 AM CST
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Photo courtesy the Kansas City Star
From the FanPosts -Joel
Thanks to a helpful link I found posted on AP, I'm now a little better educated on the zone blocking scheme now used by the Chiefs offensive line. And I'm here to say that I believe this is the much of why the Chiefs are 1-6 at this point.
Don't misunderstand. I'm not suggesting that it was a mistake to install this scheme. But the fact that it was put in this season sure might explain a lot.
First, consider the play of Branden Albert. In 2008, he was generally regarded as having played pretty well for a rookie. In 2009, most are saying his play has slipped. What's more likely? That Albert wasn't a quality player in the first place, or that he's being coached to play in a way that is completely unlike all his previous experience? For that matter, the same could be said of Brian Waters and Rudy Niswanger.
Second, consider the pass protection - which we'll all agree has been terrible this season. Last season, the Chiefs gave up 37 sacks. But as the season progressed - that is, as the offensive line began to gel - they improved. Just 16 of the sacks came in the second half of the season; only six occurred in the last four games. And four of those happened in a single game.
Yet through seven games this season, the Chiefs have given up 26 sacks - and three of the starters on the OL are guys who played those same positions last year. What's more likely? That all of these guys have fallen off, or they're struggling with a new way to play the game?
(And before someone points out that it's because Tyler Thigpen escaped a lot of sacks with his feet, allow me to remind you that in 2008, Thigpen had 62 rushes for 362 yards. Through seven games, Cassel has 27 for 126.)
Third, consider Larry Johnson. Now that he's infuriated everybody with this latest drama, it's become fashionable to say that he's washed up - and who knows? Maybe he is. He's getting pretty long in the tooth for an NFL running back, after all.
But as I understand it, in an offense using a zone blocking scheme, the RB's lane isn't set in stone. Instead, at the moment the ball is snapped, the RB is supposed to watch how the defense reacts, and take the ball through whichever crease develops. He needs to have vision and patience - and the ability to make quick cuts.
Go ahead. Raise your hand if you consider this to have been Larry Johnson's strong suit during his career. Priest Holmes? Sure. But Larry Johnson? I don't think so.
Basically, Larry Johnson has always been a Mack truck. Give him the rock, and tell him to hit the hole that will open up to the left of the guy wearing #54. To put it another way… he's always played a lot more like Forrest Gump than Barry Sanders. And that's no slam against Larry Johnson. Forrest scored a lot of TDs for the Crimson Tide, after all. :-)
Finally, consider what Todd Haley has been saying about what he sees in practice. He says that he's starting to see players do "what they're being coached to do." This strongly suggests that players are being coached to play in a way completely different than what they've done before.
So… it's no wonder that the play of the Chiefs offensive line - not to mention Larry Johnson - has been terrible this season. Why shouldn't it be? They're being coached that the instinctive way to do their jobs - that is, to block the guy in front of you, or run to the hole planned for the play - is wrong. If I were an offensive lineman (or a running back) it would take me a little while to adjust to this, too. And the whole point of any zone scheme - whether it is on offense or defense - is that everybody has to do their job, or the whole thing collapses. So on a given play, if just one guy reverts to the way he's been playing for his entire football career, the whole thing can go up in smoke.
I'm not bringing this up to suggest that Todd Haley has made the wrong choice to install a zone blocking scheme. Denver - under Mike Shanahan - used this phiosophy to crank out one 1,000 yard rusher after another. You can't argue with success… but it's not reasonable to expect a football team to get it completely right in the course of seven games, and make it work.
So I mention this to remind everyone that there is a reason to be patient with the Chiefs offense - and maybe even Larry Johnson. In a season where other players have found themselves in Haley's doghouse - and perhaps even off the team - for a blown play in a game or a heated remark in practice, Haley has doggedly kept Johnson on the field. I can only surmise that Haley believes he knows something about Larry Johnson that we don't.
Perhaps in practice, Johnson and the offensive line show him that they're getting the picture. But in games, where the pace is faster, the hits are harder, the pressure is greater - and the opposing defense isn't the Chiefs scout team - it's not happening.
I'm not 100% sold on Todd Haley. I like a lot of what he's done. Other things leave me scratching my head. In general, I prefer football coaches who can mold a winner out of the available talent - that is, to use a philosophy that fits the players on hand, rather than find players who will fit the coach's way of doing things. We all saw last season that the former approach can turn things around very quickly; Edwards and Gailey made Tyler Thigpen and the offensive line competitive in just a couple of weeks. But Haley - like Vermeil and Shottenheimer before him - is clearly the latter kind of coach. This doesn't mean he's wrong for the Chiefs. But it does means it's probably going to take some time for his philosophy to result in wins for his team.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Good Piece
Thing is, I don’t believe that Haley is that competent of a planner. Otherwise he wouldn’t have scrapped the entire offense (and OC) two weeks before the season rather than doing it before OTAs and training camp.
The players may be struggling in this offense because it’s unlike what they’ve worked in before…but it’s their coach’s fault that their learning curve has been this steep. And when the head coach can’t get out of his own way, then he’s the real problem.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Re: Haley
This is a great point and I would also add that it is the front office’s job to make sure your head coach doesn’t become too powerful. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
I don’t know if Haley should have fired Gailey, but the timing was horrendous. And the fact that the Chiefs to this day still don’t have a quarterbacks coach floors me. While those decisions were likely due to Haley wanting more control of the offense, they can’t go through if the front office pushes back and says “no.” Ultimately, the blame starts from up top.
2nd that Jon...
what the hell is that about??? DeBerg is out there for hire…that’s what he does…just go get him already and let him lead…
DeBerg gets paid much more to do what he is already doing....
Good luck
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What Is He Doing?
Last I heard he was a coach in Arena League.
But I’d definitely be down for seeing him back here coaching QBs.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I saw somewhere he was coaching up draft prospects and such...
And making big money doing it…
That and it is so much less stress…playin lots of golf
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Good For Him
I will always have a soft spot for Steve DeBerg…the NFL’s ultimate hard-luck QB (and arguably the most talented career backup…up there with Earl Morral).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
There was a special on NFL networkd months ago about him.
He is coaching QB’s as a consultant (among other things). But he was interviewed and he says that most QB coaches are teaching mechanics and strategy, you know the things QB coaches do.
Whereas he feels his strength is teaching QB’s how to “feel” pocket presence. How to do the intangibles that have zero to do with mechanics and strategy. He says QB’s coaches who have not been successful QB’s themselves can’t teach those intangibles simply because they don’t know what they are. Good point.
He was here in Tampa for awhile helping out the rookie QB’s for the Bucs and signing autographs, so I thought that was cool. I was thinking we could bring in DeBerg as a consultant to work with Cassel, It’s what he gets paid to do anyway. He’s available for hire to do just that.
Now I don’t imagine he would want a permanent position as QB coach, because when he was here in Tampa he said he’s been offered that job plenty of times over the years and he likes his freelance work because he can set his paycheck and schedule according to his life. Good for him. He is missed here in KC.
really woodman? Well I didn't know that actually.
I believe it though, he’s supposed to be VERY good at what he does. But where’s all that Cap space we have?? Where’s that money? Your probably correct. I mean if they were going to try and get a QB coach, we would have had one by now right? Oh well, it was just a thought…
)-:
We should just send our QB's to DeBerg for the offseason
We could look at someone like Huard as a QB coach though. Anyone… please
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
well bucko
that is what DeBerg is for hire to do. He likes being paid freelance. He was in Tampa last year and doing just that. I was thinking to bring him in like you said to work with Croyle and Cassel and Gutty. It would only make them better.
It’s hard to explain what he actually teaches that is so different from what QB coaches teach because, not being a QB myself, I don’t know what these intangibles are he teaches. But he must be great at it, because he’s never without work!!
Yeah
I’ve read that he’s running some sort of uber QB clinic and he’s killing it. I also understand that he’s turned down more than a few QB coaching jobs because he’s doing so well. Could be good for our boys!
Now what the hell are the Chiefs to do about a QB coach? Not a fan of Haley’s triple-duty experiment.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
you say that haley isn't that competent of a planner
i don’t think we’ve given him enough time to show us what he’s planning. the team he has lead is pretty much were everyone expected it to be this year. sure after watching some of these first few games, some of them looked like they could have gone the other way. that’s not uncommon when a team is learning a new system. experence in the execution is lacking. but then agian we expected to see problem there this season as well.
you say it’s the coaches fault for making the learning curve too high. it’s possible but i don’t think that’s the case. if you are studying geometry and are only expected to make a 60% on a test, then the teach trashes your cariculum and starts teaching you calculus and you still make a 60% on your test, is it the teachers fault you only got a 60%? it’s not like we were expecting to be good and then bombed the season.
i’m not saying haley is god sent. he’s made some mistakes, but we also expected that. he’s a rookie HC and mistakes, bad planning, bad judgment, ect kind of comes with the territory.
Re: Leaf
Leaf, those are great comments. My response to that while he’s young and can learn from his mistakes, that doesn’t change the fact that mistakes were made. It wasn’t just about the coordinator. It was also about playing musical chairs with the receivers. Teaching Bowe a lesson is one thing, but you also have a new QB under a lot of pressure to perform. It blows my mind that Haley would take away reps between Cassel-Bowe just to prove a point.
The decision to fire Gailey and to rotate the receivers around, to me, show that Haley made the mistake of not thinking that chemistry and continuity were issues that mattered. They were rookie mistakes and we can only hope that he learns from them.
while i agree that the bowe thing could have probably been handled better
i don’t think he thought that chemistry didn’t matter. i could be wrong as i wasn’t in his head so i don’t know why he did what he did i can only speculate. i think he was thinking taking control of the team and setting a standard/precedent was more important.
i was never trying to say that we should ignore his mistakes, more be patient with him because of them. pretty much what this topic was about. i just think all this haley bashing is a little premature as we still have no clue what he’s capable of yet. it just seems that everyone wants to blame him for our teams lack of success when there’s a lot more wrong with the team then just haley’s mistakes. i just don’t see a proven coach, like cower, coming in here and doing much better. he might look a little neater doing as he has experience, but outside that i don’t think there would be that much of a difference as our talent level would still be atrocious.
correct Jon,
and that is the point, no one said he can’t be forgiven for his error and mistakes, he’s new and I get that too. He’s got my vote, he’s my coach. I’m behind him too. But it doesn’t make him immune to scrutiny for his errors. He has made some doosey’s!
Gotta disagree...
… re competent planning and scrapping the 2008 offense. I think it’s glib to write that Haley is “the real problem.” They have lots of problems not related to Haley: even on the best days, a not-very-good offensive line; slow receivers who have trouble separating and have inconsistent hands; one of the worst running back contingents in the league; bringing in a new quarterback, among others.
How much ‘planning’ would have been affected one way or the other…. I think that if they had stayed with Gailey, very likely they would be a two-win team at best. I also disagree to the extent that we don’t fully know exactly what was happening in pre-season between Haley and Gailey: personality clashes, different philosophies, disagreement re personnel and fit, long-term prospects for the KC ‘Arrowspread’. I doubt that changing the system at that time was what ANYONE would have wanted a priori; likely Haley felt that if he was going to lose 14 games, he’d prefer to do it his way— rather than walk into the GM’s office after game seventeen and say that ‘It would have been better if we had done what I wanted to do.’ They possibly could have let Gailey go from the beginning, but I don’t think you necessarily can put that all on Haley, Pioli has to share some of the blame. It was an experiment, and at least per Haley and Pioli it wasn’t working.
That said, I agree that the Arrowspread/Thigpen/Gonzalez offense from last year generated better passing numbers for Gonzalez, Bowe, Thigpen et al, and occasionally moved the ball. On the other hand, most opponents adjusted to it well as the games went on, it was almost completely dependent on Thigpen throwing the ball to Gonzalez, and in the end KC only won two games.
But I agree that some of the poor offensive performance probably comes from the system change being implemented so late.
by Wheatboy74 on Nov 2, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well thought out...
I can see where you are going with it. And I’ll have to add that injuries have added to the fire along with the rotating door at RT and the extremely bad play of Goff.
As far as LJ is concerned: I’m sure if he was playing for say, the Steelers and had that line in front of him he would probably be having a better year. Saying that though, all you have to do is look back a couple of years to the offensive line we had in the Vermeil era. Yeah, I could have run for 1,000 yards behind that line…So, was he ever THAT special? And if you counter with maybe Holmes wasn’t either I have to say that Priest could change direction and could catch.
Either way, nice post! I like your insight!
Virtus In Arduo
Nice read
but I disagree that the offensive line just magically got better at blocking last year. They improved because of the Arrowspread and because of Thigpen’s legs.
This team looks the same as it did pre Arrowspread last year. Herm was trying to run a pro-style offense centered around L.J. and ball cotnrol. If you remember the Titans game it looked a lot like the game we just played against the Chargers.
Herm switched to a the spread because he knew his ass was on the line if the team didn’t win. It improved the offensive production because Thigpen was dropping back and getting rid of the ball quickly, something Cassel is not doing enough. Thigpen also had Tony G to dump off to.
I think Albert is going to be fine but he is learning to play ina different offense and he looked better last year because of the scheme.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
?
Paddy, did your g/f win the contest? I haven’t seen a recent update on this and was curious…
"Every day is an evaluation and if you’re not out there how can we depend on you? If you’re out there and you don’t know what to do, how can we depend on you?" Accountability -- Haley-style...
We are still waiting on the results.
At the very end one of the finalists obviously programed a bot to vote for him over and vover at a rate that we couldn’t keep up with without doing the same.
Waiting to see if he is goign to get caught.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Nov 2, 2009 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
Agree with the spread idea.
Zone blocking is for running plays not passing. Could account for the LJ vs Charles but not for the sack totals. Passing you still have to pick-up the pass rushers.
by Lost in Denver on Nov 2, 2009 9:24 AM CST up reply actions
Re: Zone blocking
Yes and no. There’s also an argument to be made that if a team doesn’t respect the run, they can load up to stop the pass. What made Denver such a tough offense to defend was that defenses were so intent on stopping the run that they could run all kinds of crazy misdirections, playactions and bootlegs.
And I would add to that
by saying that if you’re blocking one way on a passing play, and another way on a running play, you give the defense an additional cue in the first moments after the snap. So if you’re doing it differently on each type of play, you have to learn how to disguise it. That’s an additional detail – and God is always in the details.
"You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
Have to grant you that point, Patrick
I have to agree that the Arrowspread did help the OL do a better job in 2008. But going back to my point, the Arrowspread didn’t involving coaching the OL to play a different way. Instead, it simply took the pressure from the OL.
And while I'm thinking about it...
The Chiefs gave up 18 sacks during the first 6 games of 2008 – before Arrowspread became a reality. That’s three per game. They’ve given up 26 in seven games this year. That’s 3.7.
"You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
I agree
It makes sense that a guy like Albert might take a couple of steps back before he moves forward, after blocking in a spread. He is more accountable now.
I just don’t know how many long term guys are on the line right now. I think Albert is ok, and O’Callahan might be pretty good. Other than that we need two new guards and a center IF O’Callahan works out.
I know Waters is good but his number is about to be up. Might as well get a replacement ready.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Nov 2, 2009 9:49 AM CST up reply actions
Good points.
But that is what doesn’t make sense. Haley had said all offseason that that you find what players are good at and use them the right way. Or you don’t try to fit square pegs in round holes.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 2, 2009 9:13 AM CST reply actions
He also said trading TG
would help the team both short and long term.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
true
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 2, 2009 9:47 AM CST up reply actions
I hear ya'...
Nicely thought out. I just don’t agree. OTHER teams right NOW in the NFL have completely changed their schemes and their doing great…!! Hell Denver lost their QB before the season started, thier coach, and BM wanted out!!
Last I checked their 6-1. Their coach designs plays that match perfectly with his talent level, yes, but their also just coached better over there. PERIOD!
It’s still a nice article and a good read, but there are bigger problems brewing in KC right now. Patience won’t change that. We’re in trouble right now and it won’t be over with next season either.
Denver
I think yesterday was the beginning of the end for Denver. This is about the time of year San Diego makes a charge. Just saying…perhaps DEN has been playing over their heads (which I guess can be attributed to coaching). But let’s not crown ’em just yet.
If everyone worked as hard as me, I would be out of a job.
-Steve Nash
Josh McDaniel took over a much better team, and had far fewer changes to make
Look at the blocking at Denver. It was much more suited to running McDaniel’s offense than KC’s sans-Gonzo personnel were to running Haley’s.
I definitely maintain that Pioli and Haley screwed the pooch by hiring on Pendergast, retaining Krummy, and generally going with a pretty dismal cast of defensive coaches, but I’d like to remind APers how positively deluded they were, for the most part, about that exact crop of coaches coming into the season. The expectations of an 8-8 or better season that so many predicted were completely unrealistic.
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 9:58 AM CST up reply actions
while pendergast might not be the right guy for our defense
i don’t think krummy has been all that bad. the d-line is one of the better positions on D. ofcorse there is the theory that pendergast is just a filler d cord so i think it might be a litte early to say they screwed the pooch.
But......
The Broncos already had the skill positions especially reciever in place. They already had the line that ran a zone blocking scheme REALLY well.. and with our old center too :( They already had an extremely skilled pass rusher, a shutdown corner, and a pretty good kicker. It wasn’t as much work.
Our punter was good
by Trapped in Donkeyland on Nov 2, 2009 7:17 PM CST up reply actions
true
And, that Cutler trade is looking more and more like it was a steal for Denver…
getting those extra picks, AND the starting QB that seems to be working out for them…
heckova deal
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
I hear that every time trapped..
it’s not that your point isn’t valid…but parts of that are not valid…they lost their QB for God Sakes!! Talk about not having continuity between receivers and qb’s. They also had a horrible defense last year. HORRIBLE!! Look up the stats cuz I ain’t wastin’ my time arguing this one with anyone. They were not good last year on D.
New coach, new qb etc…with all that off field drama…still their D is totally different this year. And they learned a whole new scheme too by the way…u can’t take that out of the equation either. Their getting it done …we’re not!
Denver
isn’t coming off of a 2-14 season either. Which would indicate they had a little better personnel to work with at the beginning of this year. Now I do agree that they are being well coached, especially on their D.
Nice to hope.....
Predictions for 2009:
**LJ runs for 1800 yards**
LJ breaks Chiefs all time rushing record at home and some idiot in a red #31 jersey jumps out of the stands to try to stop him and gets trucked. It wasn't Priest but instead someone who cares more about the record than Priest does
**Bowe in the pro bowl**
Bowe's numbers regress due to lack of decent QB play.
**Chiefs D finishes in the top 10 in points allowed**
The D gets better in the second half but still is plagued by big plays
Cassel looks more like the guy Pioli almost cut in the '08 preseason instead of the franchise QB he hoped he would be when he traded him for
**Chiefs 10-6**
Chiefs 6-10
Well said...
It does appear Haley’s trying is forcing the system on the players.
In Larry’s defense, Forest Gump had Bear Bryant for a coach. Todd Haley’s voice is nowhere deep enough.
On the other hand...
How many players on the KC roster at the end of 2008 will still be on the roster at the end of 2010, when this team should have significantly more talent? Very few, I suspect. Sure, Haley is ‘forcing’ a system, but a number of the ‘square pegs’ (such as LJ) probably won’t be here in a year or so anyway. I agree with others: they are going to draft and sign guys who fit their system.
Nonsense!
Fire Haley! Pioli’s an idiot! Additional kneejerk reaction!
It’s reasonable to expect the coaches to take the players and get them to play entirely new schemes with maximum success, because coaching in the NFL is like playing Madden ’10.
It's also possible
to take a team and play better than the year before. That has yet to happen.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 9:57 AM CST up reply actions
It's possible
But doing so usually eliminates the possibility of switching schemes.
Which would you rather have:
1. A new scheme that the coach believes will pay long-term dividends
2. A bandaid on the previous scheme that had been floundering, purely for the benefit of slightly higher short-term success
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
I would prefer that they use schemes
that fit the players rather than dumping multiple years into “scheme change.”
I would rather coaches be hired that can adapt their thinking to go with the players they have.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 10:04 AM CST up reply actions
Who said anything about multiple years?
Adapting the thinking is one thing, but the fact is that the players they have can, in most cases, adapt to new schemes. It’s not like they’re taking square pegs and trying to squeeze them into round holes. They’re rounding off the edges of those pegs, and that requires some rough scrapes on both the pegs and the holes.
The fact is that the scheme and the players have to trend toward each other. The coaches were hired because of their success running the systems they run. It’s completely unrealistic to expect a coach to dump his entire coaching philosophy just to meet what the players can do. What’s more realistic is to expect the coach to evaluate his system, make adjustments to fit the players he’s inherited, turn over the roster to the extent that’s necessary to fill the holes that the current guys can’t fill, and deal with the growing pains. That usually has to happen in order for any organizational change to have long-term benefits.
Has no one any experience with organizational change? It’s not an overnight process.
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
While
I’d agree that it’s not an overnight transition for organizational change. I doubt that businesses fail as a result.
A change was necessary.. no doubt. But what evidence do we have that Haley was the right change? None. He’s doing way too much for a first year HC and it shows in the lack of production on Sundays. Will he get better next year? Who knows..but the way he likes to control everything I don’t see why anyone would want to work for him.
I see a constant meme that he's a control freak
And I guess the Gailey firing is the only evidence I’ve ever seen of it. Is there something in the KC media that I’ve missed? I admit that I don’t pay any attention to any of the KC media, because, well, I’m in Maryland. So what’s contributing to this perspective?
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 10:22 AM CST up reply actions
Record-wise? Yes, this is not unexpected.
Did you expect the Chiefs to be so soundly handled by the Chargers though?
To squeak past the ’skins?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
no i expect us to lose to the skins
and get man haddled by SD. SD, ever thought they are getting old, is still a better team.
But Haley is not running the same offense
he got his success at in AZ.
I don’t think we should go to the spread full time but why not have some packages of it to throw off the defense. Haley had success with it last year in AZ, our QB did very well with it in NE and the Chiefs may not have won a lot of games with it but we were able to move the ball and put up points with it.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 2, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
The spread wasn't his primary offense in AZ either
In the Vanilla Football League, the spread is a change-up, not a base set, as I’m sure you realize.
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
sorry burnt..but NJ has a better argument here...
this is still a RESULTS driven league. No one gets a free pass. So until and IF they get this right here in KC, there is nothing else to go on but what we SEE! Which of course is atrocious on so many levels that there is no way possible to excuse either Pioli or Haley for this.
They get paid to do what we’re on here bantering about for free. So if I made this team worse by bad coaching, then you could understand that since I don’t get paid MILLIONS of dollars to do this for a living.
But Pioli and Haley have YET to prove themselves in their current positions. We should at the very least be BETTER across the board by now but we are not. By and large we are the same pathetic mop up team as last year.
how does NJ have a better argument
no offense to NJ but i see burnt over here explaining why he believes the way he does while NJ has made only a statement that he’d rather a coach be hired to fit the team not the other way around. you are inclined to believe however you want but if this was a debate there wouldn’t be any contest.
but since you want to align yourself with that side let me point out some flaws in that logic. NJ’s states that he’s rather a coach fit the team. plus side to this is you only have to change one piece instead of 53. down side number one is this limits the coaches you can bring in and finding a good, winning coach for the current team is harder than finding players to fit a winning coaches style. there are a plethora of players currently in the NFL and entering the draft each year while there are only a handful of coaches in comparison.
down side number two is a coach for the team is only a short term fix. it maximizes the potential of the current team. the problem is, while it maximizes the overall teams potential, when you have a team of 2nd and 3rd stingers starting that’s not going to be much. you are still going to have to gut the team because not everyone is going to fit the coaches view(no matter how close to a system a coach is, every coach is different). if you don’t gut the team it’s only going to take you so far as you’ll always be playing patch work like king carl. you’ll never be better than the middle of the pack. if you do gut the team then it’s no different then what haley is doing now.
our team is rotten to the core. haley/pioli decided to the best way to fix it was to just start from scratch and build a foundation. sure it’s going to take a little longer but that doesn’t mean that it’s the wrong way to go about it. you say this is a results driven league, and you are right to an extent. but there’s not a owner/GM that will fire a coach after just 7 games. no one has been given a free pass here. you expect a team that is made up of scrubs, with a virtually entire new coaching staff, and an entirely new system to be that much better. the biggest flaw to your logic is that there hasn’t been that much time to prove one way or the other that haley or pioli is or isn’t that good. you can dislike them, disagree with their judgment, you can even ridicule them until you are blue in the face, but that doesn’t change the fact that you can’t prove they are doing a bad job any more then I can prove that they are doing a good one. all you can do is give your opinion on why you think they messed up. Right now that’s about all any of us can do and that’s why this is such a huge debate, because right now the only thing we have is speculation on what we, as you so aptly put, see.
by Leaf on Nov 2, 2009 5:25 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
We will be better of sooner rather than later.
If someone is happy with 4 wins as the plateau we are reaching for.
Carl/Herm were the guys :(
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
I would like to see a coach that can work with what he has now.
Change the roster? Change your plans. I have no problem with that.
I could give a rat’s ass what kind of offensive philosophy we have as long as we score points. The same goes for the defense, just stop the other team.
down side number one is this limits the coaches you can bring in and finding a good, winning coach for the current team is harder than finding players to fit a winning coaches style. there are a plethora of players currently in the NFL and entering the draft each year while there are only a handful of coaches in comparison.
There are only 32 head coaching positions in the NFL, and at any time very few are open. Given the number os coordinators, assistants, and college and former NFL coaches there are always a good number of cantidates. Compared to the hundreds of positions for players and the high turnover of those positions, I’m not sure your argument is accurate.
down side number two is a coach for the team is only a short term fix.
That’s a bit of an assumption on your part. Why can it not be a long term success? Continue to add players/ improve talent. No reason to think it would work any less than another way.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 6:44 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, it's a tough call and this is a wonderful Post btw..
it has brought out very enlightened discussions for once without a lot of bad vibes and attitudes about the conflicting opinions.
I can sum up how I feel Leaf in this statement;
I have not and will not this year give up on Haley or Pioli. They are our leadership and they DO deserve time to get it figured out. Those of us who are left scratching our heads at the many many questionable off season transactions or lack thereof are justified in our feelings though. We passed on so many talented players it’s horrific.
But, do we know why? No. Do Pioli and Haley have a plan? I guess. Is it a good plan? Don’t know do we? Has this new leadership shown us anything significantly different than the last regime yet? NO WAY!!
I will reserve judgement for another day. But so far since we are the bottom feeders of the NFL, and someone has to accept responsibility for that, there’s no one else except Pioli and Haley to accept that responsibility.
It’s no one else’s job. If we were 6-1 right now, who would get the credit? That’s right, Pioli and Haley. So when we’re 1-6 who should get the credit? Yup, Pioli and Haley again. Correct…ding ding ding ding we have a winner.
Just because we’re not chanting mantras to Pioli and Haley because they don’t deserve it, doesn’t mean we want them fired or we hate them. They just aren’t going to get us to worship them the way NE worships hoodie since they haven’t EARNED that type of loyalty. They still have to prove themselves. And yes, we will give them time, we will give them support where it’s deserved, but again, Until we ARE a better team, no one is getting praise they don’t deserve.
Yes, absolutely
Has this new leadership shown us anything significantly different than the last regime yet?
It is far different that we are constantly bringing in guys and trying them out and signing people. You can argue about what they’ve been able to dig up during the season but at least they are trying.
Should they have chased OL during the offseason? Absolutely. This is my one and only complaint of this regime.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
I agree
we are less talented now, than at the end of last season.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
only because we don't have TG
well that and some of our better players in the past have seemed to out lived themselves (LJ, Waters)
I think you're basically right.
I’d say that Pollard > Brown, though not greatly. I’d say a playing DJ is better than a benched one. Tank is better than the guy who hadn’t played since Saddam Hussein was still alive.
PK is better. QB? I think so, but it hasn’t really been shown yet.
I would have expected a more talented team now than last year since we had Pioli for the draft and FA. That is not the case.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 11:01 AM CST up reply actions
since piolis guys are all projects
it’s alittle hard to say one way or the other whether we got that talent in the draft. as for FA, there’s no one there and the ones that are don’t want to come here.
I sure hope we don't draft a bunch of projects
again this year……it’s gettin old.
by Hail2DaChiefs on Nov 2, 2009 2:00 PM CST up reply actions
If the players you have suck already
why would you build a scheme around them? We needed to rebuild, so let’s rebuild.
I think many of the Haley haters on here keep discounting their own culpability in their complaining. They likely had way too high of expectations of this year. I remember preseason so many people on here thinking we were going to win this division. That was absurd.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
TG, Pollard, McBride, Tyler, even McIntosh
are all starting for teams with as many or more wins than we have.
Cassel doesn’t suck, or Bowe, or Charles, or Vrable, or Hali, or Dorsey, Flowers, Carr, Page.
We had talent.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions
TG was a trade
and we knew he was good.
Tyler is a backup in a 4-3 D.
MacIntosh just sucks, ask Seattle.
Pollard was okay just not what where we wanted to go.
McBride was probably a favor, we let him go early enough to get picked up. It was nice of the Chiefs to let McBride get a job somewhere else.
Boone is an Ass and SD wouldn’t have him except Jamal was injured.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
that doesn't mean that they are the reasons thoes teams are winning games
thoes guys got picked up for the same reason we keep picking up scrubs, in hope that they fit the teams system. fortunately for thoes players they seem to.
They are good enough to contribute to teams that are better than we are,
but not good enough to contribute here?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 6:35 PM CST up reply actions
Yep.
The most annoying thing about being a Chiefs fan is watching our scrubs go to other teams and become more productive. Even guys like Keyarron Fox are becoming solid players? WTF?? I don’t get it.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Nov 2, 2009 11:14 PM CST up reply actions
re
I think your overstating the difference the scheme is making . Zone blocking is a tougher scheme to exicute, of course, but it simplifies the asignments from play to play simply because you block an area instead of singling out a man against the dozens of different fronts and schemes they try to block. I just think, well, i just know by watching – we aren’t winning up front because we have 3 lineman that shouldn’t be starting on an NFL team.
That's another thing
This is a putrid line. I do agree that fixing the line should’ve been a bigger priority in the off-season, especially when the chance to grab Jason Brown was there, but the fact is that most here didn’t think that was all that big a priority at the time. It’s easier to be a part of the peanut gallery.
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 10:23 AM CST up reply actions
I Thought He Was A Priority Then, And Said So
So did quite a few others on AP. He was at the very top of the FA wish list. Considering Brown’s age, talent and the Chiefs’ need at that position, he was a player worth giving a record contract to for the Chiefs.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Rec'ed
I understand what your saying and it does make sense, While the idea of fitting the system to the players has it’s merits, with new players coming in your offense stays in a state of flux. As I see it Haley has come up with a direction for the Chiefs to be headed in using the players we have. At the same time picking a direction now allows the scouts and others to look for players now before the draft that will fit into the scheme Haley wants to use.
There will be growing pains, and as it was said they are expected. I would rather see the Chiefs headed in a direction that will not be some overnight fix that will not last like the “Arrowspread”. While it is nice to find a away to ajust the offense to fit the players, it is not always the best move for the long term. The Chiefs need to develop a plan for the long term, so that we are not just bringing in players, but players that can excel in what the Chiefs are trying to do, build a winning team.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!
I don't get why
scheme change and trying to win are mutually exclusive.
Your scheme can evolve as the roster changes. Use the scheme that best fits the players you have now. Change the scheme as needed. Coach. Think. Evolve.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 2, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
True
With real change there comes a cost, but if the changes work out it will be a long lasting effect. Rather than some quick fix that is negated when other teams figure out what you did.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!
agreed 1000 times......
why, if these players were not really suited to this 3-4 their trying to run, didn’t they use them in the scheme they knew and were built for? Then weed one player at a time out that doesn’t fit the scheme change…slow evolution….
Because ripping off the bandaid gets the pain over with sooner
by burntorangehorn on Nov 2, 2009 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
to throw your logic back at you
if we suck with these guys that are 4-3 players in a 3-4 because they are in wrong scheme, as you guys love to throw around, then how will we magically not suck when we have 3-4 players in a 4-3. at some point you have to just go with one or the other. our leadship, in their infinate wisdom, desided to go with the 3-4.
Again....
I don’t care what scheme we use. The end goal is the same….offensively…you score…defensively …stop the other team…
I don’t care if they stand there and yell “nanny nanny boo boo” at the other team. They can call it the nanny scheme….who cares?
Just get the damn job done and quit talking about it. Quit Bs’ing your fans about this and that and just do the damn job.
Everything other than the facts is sheer speculation. Right now check out our rankings on NFL.com and get back to me about how this team is any better this year? We are horrible. HORRIBLE! How is that an improvement over last year? IT’s not is it? Horrible is horrible. Who cares if you can find one stat here or there that’s better? overall we are still terrible across the board. That’s all.
We all want our current leadership to succeed. But will they ??? Time will tell.
But I BEEN PATIENT FOR 30+ YEARS NOW!! I’M OVER IT!! GET THE DAMN JOB DONE ALREADY AND QUIT TALKING ABOUT IT!!!
GET THE DAMN JOB DONE ALREADY AND QUIT TALKING ABOUT IT!!!
I assume this is a statement aimed at Pioli/Haley??
Kray, I seem to remember a recent debate we had in which you wanted them to TALK, TALK, TALK in a special press conference just for the fans to explain their plan.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
30 years...?
Despite how long you have been waiting…they have been there 10 months…keep it real matey
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
Give it some time
If Herm was still here we all would be saying FIRE him. you have to give Haley 2-3 years. Pioli will not be fired. so Haley will be our guy next year. but we will have a new O C next year and a new D C also. the draft and free agency will give us a chance to fix some of our problems.
by Charles # 1 chiefs fan on Nov 2, 2009 11:23 AM CST reply actions
How successful will we really be
under coaches who can’t coach to the strengths of their players? It looks to me like we have another coach who is in love with a certain scheme and it will be run come hell or high water. Under Herm it was the tampa-2 and under Haley it’s on the offensive side of the ball with this zone blocking. I don’t understand why he would throw all of the off-season work out the window in the 11th hour and opt for a scheme that comes with a steep learning curve for a unit that lacked talent to begin with. Couple that with how bad LJ was last year and you have to wonder if Haley did any player evaluations at all on offense. Is the system really supposed to make up for the lack of talent? Well, he is what his record says he is.
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Maybe we were Zone blocking in pre-season
Maybe we wanted to give the guys a chance, Hali, Williams, Pollard, Page to try to fit.
Some did and some didn’t. Maybe Haley and Gailey started to but heads on the way the O would proceed. Now, Gailey might have been right, But Haley was the guy that would be here in 2010 even if we looked like shit and learned nothing about what we have here in 2009.
Wonder what Gailey thinks of the progress of this O at the Bye?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
He probably thinks as much of them as the rest of us do
:(
Braccae illae virides cum subucula rosea et tunica Caledonia-quam elenganter concinnatur!
Just for the record...
I do not think the zone blocking scheme was put in place only after Gailey was fired; I believe it was the plan all along. My evidence for this is the offseason weight reduction program. As I understand it, the scheme depends less on a player’s weight than on how they leverage their weight while blocking.
"You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
Rec RDO
Just to many moving parts to exactly call out a bad move.
The ZB scheme doesn’t explain the whole team working and getting leaner.
I think it is what Haley will continue to stress team wide.
Too hard an early schedule to expect W-L to determine improvement so far.
Maybe the second half will be fantastic and we win 4 instead of two.
I will be happy to see improvement and a couple of wins.
Maybe some Judo training?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
Steve, the schedule wasn't that much easier before the bye.
I mentioned this last week in another thread, and have recalculated it to include the week 8 games. The combined W-L record of the opposing teams before the bye was 27-24. For the remaining nine games, it is 35-31. Last week, the W-L records tilted a little more to the back nine… but then Denver lost to Baltimore. And don’t forget that Oakland and San Diego – both of whom have already beaten the Chiefs at home – have Kansas City at their houses.
You are correct, though, that the weight loss program was team wide.
Judo training would be good. My brother-in-law is fond of saying that the NFL would be a lot more interesting if in each game, each team would be allowed to have one player pack a knife… for one play. :-)
John
"Gentlemen! You can't fight in here. This is the War Room!"
Or call Four on the tee once per round
while the the other guy is about to tee off.
Yeah the second half is not looking any more promising than the 1st.
Plus we have to kick off in Jax. Florida is not kind to the Chiefs.
Maybe Judo for the O and Sumo for the D-line :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
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