This is the Song That Never Ends
by Chris Thorman on Nov 17, 2009 7:45 AM CST
in 2009 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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PrintDid you guys hear that the Kansas City Chiefs are terrible on third down this season?
Yeah, I'm sick of this too. It's like talking about the Chiefs' offensive line each week in '07. That was the big cause of our issues then and the repetition of that story got old fast.
Now we're on to third downs and why the Chiefs are so terrible at converting them, especially this past weekend when the Chiefs went 1/15 on third down. What happened on Sunday? Did the Raiders' defense shut us down? Eh, not exactly but you could make an argument for that.
I've gone through each of our third downs from the Raider game to figure out what the main cause of our third down failures were. The reasons I came up with are the general Didn't execute, Poor play calling, penalties and other. Feel free to disagree with those categorizations.
One point I want to make when I label a third down failure as Didn't execute is that that lack of execution could also have happened on first or second down, causing a long third down.
Here are the conclusions I arrived at after looking at each third down:
- 8 were because the team didn't execute properly, either on first, second or third down;
- 2 were near the end of the first half and were time-influenced;
- 2 were obviously doomed by penalties;
- 2 were poor play calls; and,
- 1 we actually converted!
It's all there, after the jump. Have at it.
#1 3rd and 12
Q1, 11:59, KC 13-yard line
Leonard Pope's false start and a two-yard loss by Kolby Smith put the Chiefs at 3rd and 17. Then a Tommy Kelly neutral zone infraction put the Chiefs at 3rd and 12. You know the next play - Cassel picked by Raiders CB Chris Johnson.
Cause: Penalty
#2 3rd and 9
Q1, 7:30, KC 10-yard line
An exchange of five-yard penalties by the Chiefs and Raiders put the Chiefs at 3rd and 9. A 1-yard run by Kolby Smith and an incomplete by Matt Cassel didn't help on first and second down. An incomplete pass closed out third down.
Cause: Didn't execute
#3 3rd and 4
Q1, 4:58, OAK 32-yard line
This is a play you remember - Matt Cassel's short pass to Dantrell Savage was blatantly dropped. Todd Haley said on the sideline to Savage, "You don't want to play today, do you?"
Cause: Didn't execute
#4 3rd and 23
Q1, 1:02, KC 12-yard line
The Raiders defense dominated the Chiefs on this drive. Matt Cassel was sacked for an 8-yard loss on first down and Jamaal Charles was tackled 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage on second down.
Cause: Didn't execute
#5 3rd and 6
Q2, 12:37, OAK 49-yard line
The Chiefs actually gained positive yardage on this drive before they got to third down. Lance Long caught a short Cassel pass to the right side and dove out of bounds, one yard short of the first down.
Jamaal Charles' 44-yard TD run on 4th and 1 made up for this though.
Cause: Didn't execute
#6 3rd and 7
Q1, 7:02, OAK 7-yard line
This drive started with a 41-yard pass to Dwayne Bowe and a 24-yard pass to Chris Chambers. This is the drive where Cassel and Charles fumbled the exchange and then had that weird bump into each other hand off that didn't gain anything.
Cassel's pass to Bowe on 3rd down was off the mark, high and out of the end zone.
Cause: Didn't execute
#7 3rd and 8
Q2, 4:44, KC 35-yard line
An incomplete pass to Mark Bradley and a short run by Jamaal Charles set the Chiefs up for third and long. Cassel passed short right to Chris Chambers and he powered his way to a six yard gain before being brought down near the sideline.
Cause: Didn't execute
#8 3rd and 8
Q2, 1:34, KC 21-yard line
The Chiefs had the ball with under two minutes to go and Kolby Smith's 7-yard run on third down was an attempt to force a Raider time out and waste some time.
Cause: Nearing end of half, deep in our own territory
#9 3rd and 5
Q2, :10, KC 29-yard line
This third down was at the end of the first half. Jamaal Charles' rush for no gain was to run out the clock at KC's 29-yard line.
Cause: End of half
#10 3rd and 10
Q3, 13:41, KC 38-yard line
And we have our lone converted third down of the game! Cassel hit Dwayne Bowe on the left side of the field for an awesome first down.
Cause: We got it!
#11 3rd and 7
Q3, 10:53, OAK 34-yard line
The Chiefs again lost yards on first down (-2 by Jamaal Charles) and Matt Cassel had an incomplete pass to Leonard Pope on second down. Cassel's pass to Bowe on third down fell incomplete, which led to a missed Ryan Succop field goal.
Cause: Didn't execute
#12 3rd and 9
Q3, 2:38, OAK 14-yard line
The Chiefs again failed on first and second down which led to a third and long. Kolby Smith's run up the middle only gained one yard on first down; Cassel's pass across the middle to Lance Long fell to the ground on second down; and Jamaal Charles caught a pass for 8-yards on third down, which left the Chiefs one yard short.
The Chiefs did go for it on 4th and 1 and did not get it.
Cause: Didn't execute
#13 3rd and 1
Q4, 15:00, KC 22-yard line
On third and short, the Chiefs went deep to Chris Chambers and did not convert. While I actually like this play call - plenty of time left in the game, going for the kill - the reason for not converting the first down is clearly a play call issue.
Cause: Poor play call
#14 3rd and 7
Q4, 6:54, OAK 11-yard line
I'm sure you remember this play - Matt Cassel's draw up the middle near the Oakland goal line. Most people flipped out at this call but the announcers said, "This was a Bill Parcells' move." What they meant was Haley called a play to ensure the Chiefs would be lined up properly for the field goal and not lose the ball. Personally, I'd like to see more aggression down on the goal line but I understand where Haley was coming from with that call.
Cause: Poor play call
#15 3rd and 17
Q4, 2:13, KC 37-yard line
The Chiefs were plugging along with the running game as time wound down but a Leonard Pope holding penalty screwed them on this drive. Jamaal Charles managed 9-yards on third down but the Chiefs were forced to punt it away.
Cause: Penalty
***
Okay Chiefs fans. Chime in with your thoughts and make sure you vote in our poll.
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i love ho 35% (or 11 people at this time)
think that it had something to do with bad play calling when the stats clear point in another direction. biased any one?
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Call plays your team can execute.
It’s a chicken/egg thing IMO.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:11 AM CST up reply actions
Look at the article above.
More than half are player execution problems that have nothing to do with the play called. The onese that are penelties, I would also say fall on player execution.
It could be said that the plays called wer edoomed to fail a high percentage of the time.
We don’t know.
Is it a good idea to run Smith up the middle on 1st and 15?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:41 AM CST up reply actions
C'mon NJ!
These guys have the ability to screw up the simplest play calls. The fumble snaps and drop screen passes. It is those simple little execution things that kills this team, not elaborate play calls that the poor Chiefs offense can’t wrap their minds around.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Nov 17, 2009 8:13 AM CST up reply actions
Yep
how many short passes have hit the RB’s right in the hands, and yet they still drop them. 3rd and 4 is a manageable down and distance, but only if your RB’s and TE’s can catch a 5 yard pass.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
and those plays are obviously player error,
but what about the rest of (most of) them? Would Charles pick up more yards in a spread system? Do we need more 5 wide with quick patterns because the o-line is terrible?
Maybe more jumbo sets? Tackle eligable with multiple TEs?
Not saying the plays called are too difficult for the team to understand, just that they may not be the best fit for the players we have on the field.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
that's the way to say it...that's what I've been trying to say
it’s not that our plays are complex, their just not the best suited to our talent level. When I say dumb it up, I’m using an old expression. What I mean to say is exactly what NJ Chiefs fan said.
judging by the talent we have on the field
that’ll leave us with like 5 plays. how long do you think it would take a defense to pick up on thoes 5 plays?
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
if these players want to keep there jobs for next year
they better learn to execute these plays.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Only 2% better than last years Chiefs,
and 13% better this year.
Stats are from ESPN.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:31 AM CST up reply actions
AZ has Warner, Boldin Fitzgerald and Breason.
we have “made of paper” Bradley, Sir “drops a lot” Bowe and “Benched Already”?? Wade.
Chambers is brand new and will have to prove himself, which he’s doing quite rapidly I must admit (good get).
Anyway, We don’t have a talented well trained receiving corp. We don’t even have the same 53 from game to game. It’s a different group every week … STILL.
you have to adjust your play calling to suit your teams talent level. Haley needs to learn to do that. He’s a rookie HC, true. But he’s a HC none the less. This isn’t a job where you can learn at the expense of your team or you get fired. Belichek got canned by Cleveland. Bet their regretting that move about now huh? But hey, it happens.
You either get it done or you get out.
So you are saying if we had better players like Warner, Boldin, ....
that could execute Haley’s play calling, we would be more successful. Thank you. I agree.
and play calling
recognizing your teams abilites and lack thereof is part of play calling. You should desing plays your team is capable of handling. He needs to adjust his playcalling. Actually he is starting to do that a little. Very little, but he’s running a little more than normal and I did see more quick slants than normal in Sundays (win?)
No.
Problem is players not being able to execute what’s called, which puts the issue back on the play-calling.
I see that as a player's issue
If I am told to do something at my job and I don’t do it right it is on me
So at what point is it the players fault in your opinion
Because what I am hearing is: If any play fails, it is because Haley called the wrong play. Or if there is a penalty – it is becuase Haley didn’t coach them well enough. If Cassell thows a pick – Its because Haley should have called a better pass play.
it's either or both
The same could be said the other way. At what point is it play calling?
Run up the gut on 3rd and 50. Don’t make it? Why didn’t they block better? Can’t the runner break tackles?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:54 AM CST up reply actions
If you call a play as a coach on 3rd down
In which the QB throws to the WR for 10 yards, hits him in the hands and the player drops the ball; or the line false starts, or there is a holding penalty, or the QB airmails a pass in which the receiver was open; or the RB misses a hole that was created by the line…..
These are the things that are happening most of the time. That tells me that the players are in the right position to be successful, but failing to execute.
We must be watching different games, then.
Because I see long pass plays being called on 3rd and 2 and run plays being called on 3rd and 15. I see a lot of things being done that, were Haley not trying to be both coach and offensive coordinator, could be done differently to ensure a greater chance of success — yes, even on 1st and 2nd down, which would increase our chances of converting on 3rd down.
Look at the list of plays above.
Only one time did we go deep on 3rd and short or run on 3rd and long.
Look, draw plays on 3rd and 15 or 20
are a common and smart play for a team that cannot pass block long enough for the WRs to get 20 yards down field. It is not something that only Haley is doing.
Bull.
The only thing a draw play on 3rd and 15 or 20 does is give you a few extra yards on your punt.
this isn't about the season
it’s about the flippn game. holy crap people get off the hate haley bandwagon for a sec and read.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
really the issue is what happens on 1st and 2nd down
if we are able to execute better on those two downs, we put ourselves in more manageable 3rd down situations which will lead to a higher conversion rate. penalties and negative plays are killing us by putting us in 3rd and 10 or longer. most teams have a tough time converting those with a bunch of success
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Sometimes, yes.
Dropped ball obviously on the player.
Line false start on the player, but could also be affected by play call. Example: the lineman has been getting beat like a drum and he’s trying to milk every advantage by anticipating the snap when adding another TE to the mix might help.
If the QB airmails the pass because he’s being hit because he had to wait for the receiver to get open and the line can’t block.
You assume there’s always a hole that’s open long enough for the RB to get through it.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 9:03 AM CST up reply actions
I'm saying on the plays that you can cleary see the holes that the RB missed.
And when a linemen gets a false start is is mainly because he is getting his ass beat the entire game and tryinug to get a jump on the guy or has screwed up and forgot the snap count.
Both are results of talent and player execution.
that's the dumbest thing i've heard
vincents examples, are good examples of player execution problems. a run up the gut on 3rd and 50 is not a good example of bad play calling. chances of you getting 50 yards on play are slim. sure it can happen, but you can’t bet on it to happen. a run up the gut, albeit a bit conservative, is a decent play as it protects the ball, while attempting to gain a few more yards before you have to punt.
now on 3rd and 15 you have a little bit more of an arguement, but not much of one because of your earlier statements. a 15 yard pass isn’t as risky as 40-50 yard pass and as a run has little chance of picking up those 15 yards in one play (see my early statement about long plays happening) a pass is a good option. unfortunately for you, you claim that the play calling is bad because, all though simple, not right for our players. we can’t even execute a 3 yard screen pass properly and you think we should air it out on 3rd and 15. that sounds abit hipocritical to me
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
3rd and 50 was an extreme to prove a point.
The failure of a play isn’t always because of poor execution. It might be, but not always.
I think we shouldn’t have run up the gut on 1st down for no gain, then run a 5 step drop back pass play where we know the RT is going to get beat, and he jumps before the snap to try to suck less. Then we don’t have 3rd and 15.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 10:14 AM CST up reply actions
last time i checked
this was about 3rd down convertions for the oakland game, not 1st and 2nd over the season.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
"This is the Song That Never Ends" is the title of the post.
It is about the continuing failure to convert 3rd downs. It’s specifically about Oakland, but (at least to me) the title indicates that this post is can be considered a continuation of all the previous posts about the terrible 3rd down play of this offense.
Did you guys hear that the Kansas City Chiefs are terrible on third down this season?
There’s been much discussion about how failures on 1st and 2nd down have lead to difficult 3rd downs, but you should feel free to talk about just 3rd downs in just this game if you want.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
fair enough
my orgininal comment, that these all banched off of was about the voting wich is about the game. i guess i failed to adapt to the players in the topic :p
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Let's try this again.
If any play fails, it is because Haley called the wrong play. Or if there is a penalty – it is becuase Haley didn’t coach them well enough. If Cassell thows a pick – Its because Haley should have called a better pass play.
Either re-read what was written then, or cut the hyperbole because no one said any such thing.
Calling a draw on 3rd and 15 is Haley’s fault.
Savage dropping a pass that hits his hands when he’s open in the flats is Savage’s fault.
Charles not being able to haul in a pass that’s thrown 10 yards in front of him when he’s otherwise wide open is on Cassel.
Sure, they can manage to screw up the plays that are called. But, at the same time, there are a lot of bone-headed, bass-ackwards plays being called in from the sidelines.
I think you solve a lot of this by taking Cassel off the leash and allowing him to audible from the line to adjust to what he sees from the Defense. Right now, Haley’s too much of a control freak (or has too little faith in his QB) to allow that to happen.
cassel is allowed to audible
in fact, one of this years press conferences, haley went on and on about how he believes in the qb being able to audible to better plays. he also said it takes a bit of time before the qb has a good enough grasp on the offense to be able to audible correctly each time
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
Matt Cassel:
“I don’t call the plays. Coach calls the plays and I just try and go out there and execute it. When Coach feels it is necessary to take shots down the field then we will but that is a question you will have to ask him. I think we have take some shots down the field … There is no doubt that we are capable of it.”
I’ve searched the site here, and I’ve googled it, and I’ve never seen anything from Haley saying that he believes in the QB being able to audible and, even if he had, your very own recollection of Haley’s answer says that he thinks it takes a QB a while to be able to “audible correctly” — and that goes back to what I said, which is a) Haley being a control freak and b) Haley not having faith in his QB (“You can’t audible until I know you’ll audible to something I think is right every time.”).
Didn't Cassell make that comment after week 2 or 3
When everyone was still learning the newly installed Haley offense?
I don't think you will find an article
you would just have to watch the games and see if he is doing it? I don’t know one way or the other.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
I haven't ever seen him do it in game.
I’ve seen him do a snap count.
I’ve seen him have to call timeout because he couldn’t determine the play Haley was telling him to run (which, again, suggests he’s just running what Haley tells him to run and not allowed to make decisions on his own).
I’ve seen him send guys in motion.
I’ve seen him point out the miked linebacker.
I’ve never seen him change from one play to another at the line of scrimmage.
OK. So he doesn't audible
Not uncommon for a QBs first year in the system.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
or maybe it means
a)cassel has had less than 2 months in this offense and b)hasn’t quite learned what to do in every situation a la peyton manning. that doesn’t mean he isn’t allowed to audible. maybe sometimes he just audibles to the wrong play or when he shouldn’t
the quote you posted in block quotes really isn’t relevant to being able to audible. the question posed to him wasn’t “are you able to audible?” it was “why haven’t you guys taken more shots down the field?”
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
And ...
His answer demonstrates that a) he doesn’t call the plays, Haley does, and b) he disagrees with Haley’s playcalls in that he thinks they could be doing more because, in his words, they’re capable of it.
If a) he thinks that they could be doing it more often and b) he were allowed to change the play, it stands to reason that they’d be doing it more often. They haven’t.
Thus, you can reasonably figure out that it’s because Haley isn’t allowing him to change the plays Haley called (ie: audible) when he sees the opportunity or thinks it necessary.
is cassel supposed to say
“we can’t throw downfield because the line can’t block and the receivers can’t catch”?
If a) he thinks that they could be doing it more often and b) he were allowed to change the play, it stands to reason that they’d be doing it more often. They haven’t.
not necessarily. he may be changing out of deep balls…fact is you don’t know if he is or isn’t. i just know i’ve heard haley speak about being a believer in qb’s being able to audible
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
or calling plays
that don’t give the players the best opportunity to perform well.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:43 AM CST up reply actions
not really
it’s only that if you make it.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Let's put it this way.
I coach a Kindergarten / 1st-grade flag football team.
If I go out there and expect them to be able to get them to run some overly complex play just because I’ve designed it and think it’s a good idea, that’s on me. Sure, you could call it player execution — after all, they clearly aren’t running the play I called correctly, right? — but the reality is that it’s on me for designing a play that my players couldn’t implement in a game situation.
But if I say, “Look, we’re going to line up with you two standing back here behind the QB and if I call ‘Red’ he hands it to Player 1 and you run around that end, and if I call ‘Blue’ he hands it to the Player 2 and he goes up the center” that’s something that the kids can understand and do and that you can expect to have them have a reasonable rate of success running. Why? Because they can execute it. And why can the execute it? Because I’ve simplified it enough for them to be able to do so.
Standing on the sidelines and cussing them out when they look at me funny when I shout instructions at them that they don’t understand doesn’t get us any first downs. Calling plays they can run does.
it's a good analogy
but it doesn’t acent his finaly statement and is frankly not relevent. yalling at people has nothing to do with play calling and our offense is very basic. so if our kindergarten team can’t figure it out they have no buisness in this league. you just made a good point in favor of the opposit side of the argument.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
calling simple plays doesn't necessarily guarantee success either
i don’t think it’s a matter of the plays being too complex, rather its a matter of players not being very good. even simple plays aren’t successful when the players aren’t that good
The only players I hurt with my words are the ones who have an inflated opinion of their ability. I can't worry about that.
Bill Parcells
Knowledge is confidence. And confidence lets you play fast.
Bill Parcells
ok so because our recievers can't catch
do we run the ball every time. yah that’s a real smart idea.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Play Calling
It is almost always player execution. Look at the big run by Charles. 4th and 1. The Chiefs run a toss. The need only a yard and the pitched two yards back? Stupid play call? If it doesn’t work people will say it is a bad call, that we should have run straight ahead. Hell, even when they did it my buddy yelled out “Why would you run a toss on…”
Then he shut up because the Chiefs lineman and receivers did their job, made their blocks and their RB showed good vision and fine cutback ability.
You can say it was a brilliant call. The Raiders were being over aggressive and looking for a run stuff up the middle. The Chiefs ran a toss, made their blocks and sprung Charles.
The play calling isn’t perfect but there most of the time there is nothing wrong with the play called. If the players execute the play then no one would be complaining about play calling.
Haley makes some mistakes but his players are responsible for most of what happens on the field. These guys have been playing football their entire lives. They should know not to jump off sides, hand off the ball without dropping it and most of all, they should know how to catch the damn football.
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Nov 17, 2009 8:11 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
See, this is the problem I have with the Haley bashing
If people are going to say that this teams failure to execute is due to bad play calling – then you have to give him credit when the plays do work. You can’t say that everything bad that happens is the coaching fault, but anything good that happens is because of the players and has nothing to do with Haley.
Wait did you take that as me bashing Haley?
Please help send my girlfriend to Broadway! Visit http://magonbroadway.blogspot.com/
by Patrick Allen on Nov 17, 2009 8:30 AM CST up reply actions
yah, I didn't see that as Haley bashing at all.
it’s just his outlook on the questions and ideas posed in the post.
Not really vincent. Here's why.
If I hired a lawn service to come and make my lawn look manicured and pretty and I paid them good money for it, I would have the right to expect good work for my good money.
Would it be okay if they mowed half my lawn and trimmed half my trees? And then just left the other half sloppy and unkept. No. It wouldn’t.
haley accepted a job of his own free will. That job is a high profile, high media attention, and HIGH fan involvement job. It’s inevitable that your going to get hit hard when your 2-14 and have the worst stats in the NFL.
I will not praise Haley for getting it right “once in awhile”. that’s not good enough. It’s also contrary to EVERYTHING Haley himself teaches. He benches guys for not being perfect 100% of the time. He trades guys, or cuts guys for less than that. Shouldn’t he be held to the same standard he himself created in KC? If not, why not?
Patrick Allen said it best. I have said it all year. I couldn’t agree with PA more. The fact is we are not a talented team and it shows. It’s obvious to everyone except Haley it seems. He keeps designing plays we can’t execute. We aren’t capable of executing his type offense on a consistent basis.
He needs to dumb it down a little. Again, we don’t have a brilliant Superbowl MVP QB like Warner, We dont have the very best elite receiving corp. in the NFL either. So you have to adjust your play calling accordingly.
?
The plays we are running are not that complicated. They are simple plays that are rather easy to grasp. It is the easy plays that the players are screwing up on. Simple runs up the middle, crossing routes and slants. This is not a Vermeil/Saunders offense with a lot of motions and pre-snap adjustments. So I don’t see how we could dumb it down any further unless you want to run a high school offense, because even colleges run similar offenses to ours.
there are a lot of plays that are designed to take time to develop
a luxury this o line does not provide for Cassel. Plus our receiving corp until Chambers got here are slow. Not fast. So we need more curls and slants.
Agree on the long plays
We don’t have the blocking for those. At least we are seeing fewer of them, my biggest problem with Haley is he has to get Cassel to get rid of the ball faster. I don’t think most of the time he is supposed to hold it as long as he does, seems his reads are a little slow.
his reads are slow..so are Aaron Rodgers.
Cassel is a bit slow to finish his reads. No question. He’s been nailed for that weakness a lot this year.
although tevans. I'm apt to agree with you about them screwing up even the easy plays
we can’t even handoff without fumbling. It’s not one thing. It’s a lot of things causing this breakdown here in KC. good point.
Let's be honest here.
The guys that we’ve got on our team, whether we’re the most talented or not, are still the elite of the elite when it comes to college players. These guys, while they may not look it on Sundays, would absolutely demolish any college team you want to bring in.
So, lets not pretend like we’ve dumbed the offense down so much that we’re running a college-style offense, because we’re not. If we were, these guys would execute it better (and, conversely, opposing defenses would blow it up even more often than they do now).
And, whatever the case, Haley needs to coach to the level of his players, not expect them to somehow magically become able to run an offense they’re clearly not capable of implementing just beause he demands that they “make it work.”
What In The Hell Do you Want Haley To Call?
I’ve watched every snap this season and I can tell you there isn’t an offensive play Haley hasn’t tried to get this team rolling. We’ve tried slants, we’ve tried curls, we’ve tried screens, outs, tosses, up the middle runs, deep hooks, crossing routes, drag routes, bombs, and shovel passes.
You guys thinking there is some magic bullet that a “genius” play-caller would invent to suddenly make this Chiefs team competitive you are naive or crazy. This is a bad team with under NFL level talent at a lot of positions. That’s right under replacement level player talent.
I’ve seen Cassel try to run slants and most of the time it has been broken up, dropped or nearly interecepted by the defense because until Charles this last game, we’ve had no credible running threat and the safeties and linebackers aren’t worried about the run so they jump routes. Chambers has added a very needed deep threat to this offense and conversely we’ve started moving the ball. Charles could soon have the same affect in the backfield. You guys are being unrealistic.
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
dropped or nearly interecepted by the defense because until Charles this last game
So, step one would have been use Charles more.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
Yes
But you think Larry was a problem as a starter…imagine him on a bad Chiefs team on the bench. See there is a part of sports fans and media dont see and that is the locker room. No one “really” knows how that locker room is but I can imagine if Dick Vermeil thought Larry was a pouty baby as a rookie and the team was moderately successful, imagine that malcontent riding the pine on a bad team.
There is a human dynamic and a huge paycheck Larry was hauling in every week. In many ways parting with LJ was a plus beyond just his 2.9 ypc
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
So, step one would've been ...
Getting rid of Larry, by cutting him or by trading him, in the off-season for whatever you could get for him rather than giving him a ‘clean slate.’
Step two, which would’ve followed step one, would’ve been to use Charles more.
( Hey! Look at that! We’ve already figured out a way to have fixed a lot of the problems on this team 9+ weeks sooner. Except, I’m pretty sure that a lot of this could actually see this 9+ weeks ago and our managerial staff couldn’t. That’s sort of a problem … )
Step three would be not giving up on the running game when it’s working (see also: vs. Jacksonville). But, I’m sure that was execution and not play-calling. Haley was probably calling running plays the whole time and Cassel was just out there flinging the ball downfield for the hell of it.
no it's not
you are bassing everything off what you see on sunday. the managment see everything. we have no idea the reason why charles wasn’t played sooner so stop assuming that haley was blind.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
That's all that matters.
you are bassing everything off what you see on sunday
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
no it isn't.
waht happens on sunday is only part of the equation. you can’t know why a coach/gm/whatever does what they do by seeing them in action one day a week. my point was not that wining on sunday isn’t important, but that you have no idea what’s going on behind the sceens.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
My point is I don't care about behind the scenes.
I only care about the play on Sundays and the final score.
I understand how seeing practices can influence decisions, but how long is too long to let poor play on Sundays continue without attempting to fix it just because your RB can run well in practice?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
again you are assumeing i'm only talking about practices
there are a lot of veriables at play here and you only seem to be conserned with one. as a fan i’m with you in that i ultimately care about the final prducted on sunday. but as someone who has been in managment potions i know that there’s always something going on in the backround that no one sees but plays a vital role in how things are done.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Cassell had more than 1 option on 3rd and 2
3rd and 2 and Cassell goes for it all. I’m ok with it as he showed some guts but you will never convince me that was his first read on that play. He just happened to see 1 on 1 match-up outside and went with it.
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
My point is that the bad stuff/stats that happen can't be Just Haley's fault
while all the good has nothing to do with Haley. It is just the player making good plays.
I find it hard to believe that this offense is too overy complicated for this group of players.
I don't think anyone is saying it's too complicated.
Not best for the talent we have is more like it.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:46 AM CST up reply actions
So, should we have stuck with the Thigbone
eventhough we have no intention of running that offense in the future
No reason Cassel can't run that offense.
The Arrowspread was as much a function of the O-line as it was the QB.
Pretty much same O-line, I see no reason not to play more spread and see how it works. You’d gettbetter running lanes in the middle for Charles.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
So, really your issue should be with Pioli
They should have never brought in Haley. We should have just kept a puppet in place that would leave all the offensive coaches as they were.
You're putting words into people's mouths again.
No one is sayign what you’re saying they’re saying.
However, I think it is reasonably certain that the reason why Chan isn’t here is because he had a ‘conversation’ with Haley that basically amounted to “Look, we can’t do what you’re wanting to do with what we’ve got. Going back to what we’d done last year, until we have the players that can execute what you’re trying to do will give us the best chance of success in the short term.”
Haley didn’t want to hear it, so he fired Chan and took over. Now, he’s trying to do exactly he was told couldn’t be done and, as it turns out, Haley was wrong.
No, you’ll never hear that that’s the exact reason why Chan was removed because that’s not the way this team operates. But, looking at it from the outside and seeing what we’ve seen of Haley, it’s pretty easy to see a scenario like that going down.
I completely agree with that.
And Pioli / Hunt chose to bring in a strong minded Head Coach (Haley) that was going to do things his way. The same way that has allowed him to move up from conditioning coach – WR coach – OC – now HC in a short period of time. If one has had that much success doing it a certain way, why would you change at this point.
Be strong minded,
don’t be stubborn to a fault.
I would hope one would change when it became evident that what had given you success before had stopped working.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 9:13 AM CST up reply actions
He hasn't even been given a chance to build his team yet?
What are you talking about. He’s been here half a season. Nobody is going to take this current group of players and do any better with them.
Especially not ...
… when you constantly cut guys who have a bad week or aren’t willing to put up with your constant cussing at them, and replace them with guys who haven’t been signed by other teams or who are sitting on practice squads.
But that’s not on Haley either, I’m sure.
If he hasn’t been given a chance to build his team, I’m not sure what they were doing in the off-season and what they’ve been doing with the constant revolving door we’ve had for almost every position on this team.
they weren't going to be that much better for us
then we have and were probably going to be gone by next year anyways because they don’t fit the system, so why as a coach so haley deal with their whinny asses for a year because they get us 5 more tackles a game. i garnetee even if we still had pollard, since he’s really the only one people complain about these days, we would still only have 2 wins
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
@ JacinB So Let Me Get This Straight.
Imagine you are in Haley/Pioli’s shoes. You are the last set of GM/Coaches hired and have missed some valuable time in free agency. You have to scramble and throw together a coaching staff and scouting department. You have 1 draft and a smattering of B-rate replacements and a whole lot of hold-overs from a 2 win football team where they were literally signing street free agents last year and you think Haley has built HIS team? I applaud you sir. I ask you to take a deep breath, step back and give them at least this coming off-season to see how this team develops before pulling
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 10:41 AM CST up reply actions
This is Haley's team until the roster changes.
He has 53 guys and the practice team. He has to make due with what he has. It might not be easy. It might not be possible, but it is his job to do everything in his power to give the guiys on his roster the best chance to win.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
Which He is Doing
Do you think for a second he isn’t?
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 11:05 AM CST up reply actions
I do.
Philly: 2nd half of the game
Failure to augment the offense that has been terrible.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:24 AM CST up reply actions
philly 2nd half of the game is an assumption.
there’s no way you can prove he gave up. philly’s d was killing us and our OL was playing like shit. it can just as easily be argued that haley ran the ball more to protect cassel. adapting to the players that you have. isn’t that what you want?
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
I said that after the Philly game too
If Haley would have continued to have Cassell drop back and got him hurt for the season, all the poster would be talking about how stupid Haley is for getting his QB killed in a game that we had no chance to win. But instead we hear how he failed to adapt.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
Guys,
nice debating with you. Got to agree to disagree on some things. Pretty sure we can agree that we hope Haley and his Chiefs kick some ass.
Got to go. Meetings the rest of the day.
Take care.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
take care mate.
don’t let your boss ride you to hard…..unless she’s hot :p
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
and who to say he hasn't
we’ve alreay tied last years team in wins and have the potential to pull out 2 more. that means he’s done something right.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
That's a very low standard.
If Herm had stuck around and won 4 or 5 games, would it have been ok?
Not for me. Why should Haley get to do worse?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:25 AM CST up reply actions
Insert whoever you think is the best coach in the league
With this same group of players what do yo think the results would be to this point
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
it's not a low standard
i just don’t have unrealistic expectation from a team that has only won 6 games in the 2 seasons prior to this one.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
oh and herm was given 2 year.
you guys haven’t even given haley 1.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
What Miami did last year was the worst thing
that could have happened to the Chiefs. Because, now instead of looking at it as a fluke..the quick turnaround of a 2-14 team to a playoff team is what is expected. We need to compare ourselves to teams like – Cleveland, Det, St. Louis when evaluating our process not a once in a century turnaround that Miami did.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
miami last year was a product of a
fast start and a easy schedule. once they got rolling they kept going. look at them this year and you can tell they arn’t nearly the team everyone thought they were or what their record sujested they were.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Why not?
That’s what he was hired to do. Take this team and do (hopefully much) better than the last guy.
He’s done great with special teams. The D looks about the same, but I’m really hoping they start to pull it together as they get ude to the new 3-4 style. The O looks worse than last year.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 9:28 AM CST up reply actions
Ooh, I know this one.
What is “Because it’s not working with the players that we have?”
I’ll take “Second-guessing a 1st year head coach who may not know it all” for $400, Alex.
seriously guys
don’t you watch jeopardy.
"Second-guessing a 1st year head coach who may not know it all" for $400 is the catagory
"Because it’s not working with the players that we have?" is the answer
“Who are the Kansas City Chiefs Fans” whould be the question
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Conjecture
Pure conjecture. You are guessing and using media notions (Whitlock regarding ego) to back up your guesses. Chan Gailey is a very conservative play-caller. Haley as you can tell by his 4th down attempts is not. If you think for one minute the Chiefs would be just traipsing up and down the field with the Arrowspread scoring points like the 2003 Chiefs you are on some drugs.
This is a process. Remember it’s the beginning of a process. What that means is you install your offensive system, try to teach it the best you can, figure out what players ‘can" run your system and ship out the ones that can’t in the off-season. Does that mean Haley won’t have to adjust his system at some point? No. All coaches adjust and tweak their systems. Haley has adjusted his as the year has gone on. Sadly the talent here is so thin right now it hasn’t made much difference.
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
Conjecture.
First, you’re assuming I read Whitlock’s articles. I don’t. I also don’t, however, dismiss something out of hand simply because it’s something that Whitlock said.
Second, I base my opinion of Haley on what I’ve seen of Haley and what I’ve read from multiple sources. I don’t like what I’ve seen. I don’t like what I’ve read. To deny that he’s got temper issues and control issues is to deny reality. To deny that he demands things be done his way even when its clear before it starts that it won’t work — as in the case of training camp, when Cassel questioned running the same exact play over and over and expecting different results when the defense knew what was coming — is to deny reality.
It’s pretty simple to take what we know to be facts of a situation — Haley fired Chan because Haley didn’t like Chan’s suggestions for this offense, Chan ran an effective spread offense with the same basic offensive pieces last year, Haley’s offense is one of the worst in the league, etc. — and put together what happened, even if no one within the organization is willing to come right out and say it.
And, bad execution on the part of the players or not, at some point we need to stop allowing Haley to skate — something he’s never allowed anyone else — and hold him to the same standard he holds everyone else.
1.) you've seen very little of haley
as he’s only been coach for 9 games so not much to go on. you can still hate him but it’s not much to go on.
2.) the media is biased and has been hating on haley since he got here. long before we started losing. when we started losing that just gives them more fuel for the fire. plus 90% of the arguments of haley on AP are opinion baised, wich is fine everyone is entitiled to theirs, so your entire argument is conjecture
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
now that is putting words in people's mouths
that is just one abnormally large assumption
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
There's been a fair amount of putting words in other's mouths in this thread, IMO.
"You've only got 10 fingers to stick in the dike. Is there a breaking point that pushes you over the edge?...Where's the limit?"
-Marty Schottenheimer
by go_saleaumua on Nov 17, 2009 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
No, I have an issue with some of the plays being called.
I think Haley has potential. I don’t know if he’ll turn out to be good. I certainly hope he does. Thus far, he still seems to be trying to force a system on players that could be more successful running something else.
I want to win. Period. Now, and in the future. Haley, or whoever the coach is needs to use the players given him in a way that they are given the best possible chance to win each and every week.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 9:09 AM CST up reply actions
if you think he has potential
why hate on him so much. why not give him time. i’d could care less is we have a 2-14 season as long as we turn it around in a few years because he rebuild properly. what does a few more wins mean any ways. 5-11 or 2-14 matters not. we still such balls
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
I expect him to do a good job regardless of how long he’s had it. Will he make mistakes? Yes. Are they ok? No.
I’m not hating on him. I’m saying he hasn’t done a very good job so far. I expect better from the Head Coach of the Kansas City Chiefs. I think he has a chance to be good. I haven’t seen it yet.
To qoute Haley, “I have to go by what I see, not what I hope.”
rebuild properly
What is that? Is there only one way? Does that way mean we can’t try to win now? Are these just Sunday scrimmages until we feel like trying to win?
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:00 AM CST up reply actions
Yes They Are
For years and years the Chiefs were mediocre. We had a window in the 90s where we were great but not quite “great enough”. That window closed but the remnants of those great teams allowed us to hang around mediocrity for many seasons. 7-9, 8-8, 9-7 were typical seasons for a decade in KC. Just good enough to give fans glimmers of hope but never good enough to win the prize or bad enough to restock the talent. Carl was terrified of 3 to 4 win seasons.
The best thing that can happen to this franchise for hte long term is to finish this season 5 wins or worse to make sure all those draft picks are again top 5 material. Is it a guarantee of getting good talent? No, but your chances improve. So fans need to have patience this season. I hope for wins every Sunday and Haley is doing all he can to win games, but the fact of the matter is, this season really is one long scrimmage until 2010 when the regime will have gotten 2 drafts and a full free agency period to try and build the franchise.
by Ryan in Nixa on Nov 17, 2009 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
absolutely.
patience…
worst thing we could do is keep changing coaches every couple of years. give it time…..
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
Who said change?
Who said he doesn’t have time?
I’m saying where are nowhere near where we need to be, and thus far we haven’t improved significantly.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 11:16 AM CST up reply actions
i think you expect to much too soon.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
who said we aren't trying to win
last time i check we were trying to win. just because you don’t agree with the way things are being done doesn’t mean that they aren’t trying to when.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
you are expecting way too much of a first year coach
taking over the worst team in the NFL for the past 2 years. come back toward the end of next year and i’ll listen to that arguement if nothing has changed.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
execute on 1st & 2nd
It looks more like they need to execute on 1st and 2nd more. Only three times they had five or less yards to go on 3rd down if they executed more on the early downs the 3rd downs would be more manageable.
Question contains a faulty premise
Clearly, 3rd and longs are the primary issue. This isn’t a play-calling issue. Negative plays are destroying our third down conversions. The way to look at this is to see how many 3rd down conversions occur at 1-4 yards, 5-9 yards and 10 and over. The ratio gets harder the longer the yardage. Look at our 4th down conversions and the yardage at stake.
26
third downs converted.
any links out there to find the % for attempts with 1-4yds to go, 5-9, etc…???
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
yeah
that would suck.
Btw, great discussion. lease don’t think I’m totally disagreeing with you. The players a screwing up left and right, but I aslo think Haley copuld be doing better to help them out.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 17, 2009 9:29 AM CST up reply actions
No problem. I'm just not a big believer in coaching at this level
I think 90% of success in the NFL is a result of talent on the field.
Here is Baltimore game 3rd Downs
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 15 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 11 – Convert
3rd and 8 – Fail
3rd and 6 – Fail
3rd and 18 = Fail
So that game alone, we did not have a single 3rd down try of less than 5 yards.
Oakland game in KC
3rd and 7 – Fail
3rd and 4 – convert
3rd and 2 – fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Convert
3rd and 15 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 2 – Fail
3rd and 22 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Convert
3rd and 1 – Convert
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 12 – convert
3rd and 1 – Fail
second game of the season
give the guya a brake already. of corse there are going to be some bad calls and bad player execution as a bew system was just implamented 2 weeks prior
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Uh, no.
It was Haley’s choice to implement a new system. I’m not going to give him a pass for bad play-calling when he was calling plays in a system he himself designed.
If it’s on the execution, fine. He can’t control it once he’s called the play.
But, if it’s bad play-calling in his own system, he needs to be held accountable.
right and you'd have done better.
get real. no body, no matter how good a coach is going make a shit team look decent the second game in.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Get real.
We only converted on 3rd and 2 once out of four tries against the Oakland friggin’ Raiders, one of the only teams worse than we are, with a team that was fired up because they had just taken the Baltimore Ravens down to the wire.
And, just to make the point, yes, I’m pretty sure that against the Oakland Raiders, I could get a 11 guys off the street and convert 25% of the time with 3rd and 2 or less.
Philly Game
3rd and 5 – convert
3rd and 25 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 13 – Fail
3rd and 6 – Fail
3rd and 1 – Fail
3rd and 20 – Fail
3rd and 1 – Fail
3rd and 13 – Fail
3rd and 1 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
Dude. I'm just trying to put the stats up there. I'm not doing it for argument sake.
Someone asked how to find this out.
philly's D
the dominated that game… or did you not watch that one
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
So?
I guess I was under the impression that coaches were supposed to be able to adapt and adjust in order to compensate for what they were seeing on the field and, either way, when you get three shots at picking up a first down that’s only 1 yard away, you ought to a) be able to call a play that gets the job done (that’s on Haley) and b) execute the play called (that’s on the players).
if he doesn't have the personel to pull it off
it wouldn’t matter how many “adaptions” he made.
UCrawford will eventually calm down and realize that Haley isn't a bad coach.
Will embrace the Fire Haley Bandwagon if we lose to the raiders by more then a TD...
..But we aren't going to lose.
LJ will not land in Pittsburgh
The Chiefs will not be the number one pick in this years draft
The Chiefs first pick of the draft will NOT be a OL
Thinks UCrawford just needs a hug... offer is there when you are ready UC :p
Giants
3rd and 8 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 8 – Convert
3rd and 13 – Fail
3rd and 18 – Fail
3rd and 7 – Fail
3rd and 11 – Fail
3rd and 11 – Fail
3rd and 7 – Convert
3rd and 11 – Fail
3rd and 2 – Fail
3rd and 27 – Fail
Dallas
3rd and 11 – Fail
3rd and 3 – Fail
3rd and 15 – Fail
3rd and 1 – Convert
3rd and 17 – Fail
3rd and 2 – Convert
3rd and 6 – Fail
3rd and 20 – Fail
3rd and 3 – Convert
3rd and 3 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 26 – Convert
3rd and 2 – Convert
3rd and 22 – Fail
3rd and 14 – Convert
3rd and 7 – Fail
3rd and 15 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
Washington
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 3 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 1 – Convert
3rd and 10 – Convert
3rd and 11 – Fail
3rd and 11 – Fail
3rd and 8 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 8 – Convert
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 2 – Convert
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 4 – Convert
3rd and 8 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 7 – Fail
Totals
13 conversions with 1-4yds to go
7 conversions with 5-9yds to go
6 conversions with 9+yds to go
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
Chargers
3rd and 7 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 9 – Fail
3rd and 8 – Fail
3rd and 6 – Convert
3rd and 3 – Fail
3rd and 3 – Convert
3rd and 2 – Fail
3rd and 5 – Fail
3rd and 10 – Fail
3rd and 16 – Fail
3rd and 22 – Fail
3rd and 8 – Fail
3rd and 1 – Convert
3rd and 6 – Fail
Jacksonville
3rd and 1 – Failed
3rd and 10 – Failed
3rd and 3 – Failed
3rd and 6 – Failed
3rd and 4 – Failed
3rd and 18 – Failed
3rd and 19 – Failed
3rd and 5 – Convert
3rd and 14 – Failed
3rd and 14 – Failed
3rd and 2 – Convert
3rd and 19 – Convert
Do you count the 50+ yard field goal on 3rd down right before the half?
If so, that is the one I am missing.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
i think thats the one
that was missed, and the guy tried to return it but was tacked. half over..
got my stats from nfl.com. tells you how many, then the game log shows a play by play.
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
Yeah, I was using the same thing in Yahoo.
Now I want to see what our conversion precentage is for 4 yards or less, 5-9, and 9+
You know, the amazing thing looking at this is the number of 9+ attemps.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 10:50 AM CST up reply actions
Oakland away
3rd and 12 – Failed
3rd and 9 – Failed
3rd and 4 – Failed
3rd and 23 – Failed
3rd and 6 – Failed
3rd and 7 – Failed
3rd and 8 – Failed
3rd and 8 – Failed
3rd and 5 – Failed
3rd and 10 – Convert
3rd and 7 – Failed
3rd and 9 – Failed
3rd and 1 – Failed
3rd and 7 – Failed
3rd and 17 – Failed
I just went by play by play of each game
So, I’m sure that some may not be official since they might have been conversions due to other team having a penalty to give us the first down.
But, for getting average numbers this should be pretty close.
so....
13/26= 50% of all conversions have come with 4yds or less to gain.
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
So I would say that pretty much points out that 1s and 2nd down results are the problem
not so much 3rd down play calling.
by vincent2668 on Nov 17, 2009 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
And ...
That’s the total percentage of our 3rd down conversions that come from those distances.
What is the conversion percentage from those distances (in other words, how successful are we overall from those distances? Do we convert 40% of the time when it’s 3rd and four or less? Or, just 12%?) Because, I think that’s closer to the root of what we’re discussing here.
48 attemps of 10 or more yards
That is crazy. That means alot of sacks and penalties. This is that negative play issue that Haley keeps talking about.
That points to your line and player mistakes (penalties)
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