Why Piolli did not keep Herm as Head Coach this year
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 3:38 PM CST
177 comments
Piolli wanted Cassel and Vrabel. Herm did not, Herm was on a youth movement that he stayed true to.
Herm wanted to draft the best LB available in the first and then improve the O-Line. He also wanted Nate Davis at QB.
That was just the begining. See the differance.
Yea I know I would of been MUCH Happier if Herm had controlled the draft. I also really doubt he would of let Piolli trade Gonzo.
Just one more reason I think Pioli made a mistake in letting Herm go. He admitted that he did not know what our players had to offer, I think Herm did for sure. Second he did not know what moves were going to be the best for the Chiefs in 09.
Instead he wants to start a new 3 yr buiding exp. Doesn't he know we were on year two of a three year building plan.
I don't know about the rest of you but if it takes more than this offseason to make us competitive I want him gone.
Although I think with the release of Pollard and the decision to get Cassel and everyone saying we will have to live with Cassel next year he haas already set us BACK two seasons.
I really did not think I would say this but maybe Herms record really did fall mostly on the lack of a built Offense and the cordinating of Gun on D. It was definatly time for Gunther to go, But my feelings on the rest.
Gailey > Haley as an O Cordinator
Gun who wasn't the answer > Pendergast and Gibbs
So just my opinion when Carl BAILED on Herm I wanted him to move in as GM witch I think he would be great at. His problem as a Coach was clock managment witch he worked hard to fix but never really got there, however I love the players he brought to KC including Pollard and Tank Tyler.
Piolli has made NO moves I thought were great and most of them I strongly think to be mistakes.
Lets see what moves he made right Succop. Mays maybe the URFAs witch I think most credit for those go to Haley. After that I don't like most of them expecially the Cassel Vrabel trade witch I think was horrible I've herd all the dissaproval of that but its my opinion and all I can say to those people is will see what you think when next year is half over.
The few POSSIBLE good moves Chambers, might be good for the team Ndukwe and Alleman trade will atleast add depth where its needed. Lance Long but that credit goes to Haley.
Again I add they have done alittle to help and alot I think set us back.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Agree with that
But it looks bad for the Chiefs
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 3:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You...
are the biggest Cassel hater. Do me a favor and pop in a tape of him in New England last year. Especially, the 2nd half of the season in which he improved. All we have to do is give the man some talent. Nate Davis? The guy is a project and won’t start an NFL game for another season and a half.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Nov 11, 2009 4:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I've watched enough of Cassel
And looked at his stats from last year. All I have to say is Moss and Welker made him look average some of the time. He even had a couple really good games but thats it just look at his overall statistics other than TD to INT ratio he was not that good last year.
And he is the SACK MASTER, NO VISION QB WHO CANNOT THROW DEEP ACURATLY. the passes he completed last sunday were evidence as Bowe had to take the ball away from the defender on multiple throws. He has had open looks deep SEVERAL times with time to throw and still has not put ONE of thoughs on target.
HE SUCKS AND I WILL CONTINUE TO SAY IT UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE or he gets benched.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 4:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I can’t wait when we get to the day that Cassel is conventionally seen as good and you have shut your trap.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Nov 11, 2009 4:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That would honestly be a good thing
Since Cassel is starting for the Chiefs however I dont see it happening. If it does though I might even become a fan of his, although if he was good he would of started over Leinart atleast for one year.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Marty
chose Grbac over Gannon, and Gannon was the senior QB – does that make Grbac the better QB? Does that mean Gannon wasn’t good?
And Priest Holmes played behind Ricky Williams at Texas – does that make Ricky the better back? Would you rather the Chiefs had Ricky or Priest? Cassel or Leinhart?
You’re giving Cassel no chance. He’s a young starter on a shi*tty team. Give him a chance.
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 5:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Every Chiefs fan know Gannon was better
Yes I would of took Ricky over Priest I love both but Ricky was all around a touch better except he smoked pot. Witout a doubt I would rather have Leinhart than Cassel. After half a season not one time has he looked like a GOOD starting QB and this week he either plays decent or we all should want him benched.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 5:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm...
Priest Holmes:
More touchdowns
Better average YPC
Better average rushing yards per game
Better average receiving yards per game
Better average YAC
Yet:
No character issues
No one traded their entire draft to get him
And if you’re going to give the O-Line all the credit for that… then maybe you should apply it to this season as well.
I’d take Cassel over Leinhart, but I suppose in this case it’s personal opinion. As far as Priest vs. Ricky, I think the stats are pretty obvious – even if you break it down by most productive seasons.
I’m just trying to show you that just because one guys starts over another, it doesn’t mean the guy on the bench isn’t good – which is exactly what you said :
although if he was good he would of started over Leinart atleast for one year
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 5:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That in comparison yes because as far as NFL talent goes
Leinart is not starting and Cassel should not be. On the Ricky comparison they were both really good backs and I am very glad we had Priest Holmes I only Say Ricky because he is productive this season and Holmes is retired due to injury.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 5:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I miss Priest... just thought I'd throw that in there
And recently… I miss Gonzo, and Jared. And Mike Brown sure made me miss Pollard last week.
Thanks for the good discussion today – helped me pass some time :)
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Tom Brady wasnt a full time starter at Michigan
The patriots are probably kicking themselves becasue they didnt stick with Bledsoe
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so agree
cassel hasnt impressed me, i would have saved money and stuck w/ the qb’s we had. thigpen and croyle. imo thigpen played verry well behind a pitiful line. he threw 18 td’s and 12 td’s last season, he through for more td’s then rothlessburger, flacco and ryan, in less time too. and not trading our second for cassel we probably could have gotten rey maluga as LB which would have been a very nice upgrade.
we should have kept pollard, imo significantly better then brown. also think we should have kept tank tyler too, i thought he was playing very well givin he was playing at a new position. much better then the guys we have playing now.
I liked the youth movement that herm was doing. although signing a few vets to teach the new guys some tricks doesnt hurt.
we should have gotten rid of LJ before the draft, might have gotten a good o-linemen or atleast traded him for a good o-linemen.
i think so far the only good thing to come out of this regime is succup, chambers and vrabel.
Proud Supporter of Tyler Thigpen.
by nfamous209 on Nov 12, 2009 10:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
he didn't keep edwards
because he’s a terrible head coach
period.
he’s a good scout, but he’s not a good HC or GM
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Nov 11, 2009 4:00 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Herm *might* make a good GM, hard to tell
but he’s a far better evaluator of talent than Pioli – at least for the Chiefs thus far – personally, I would have LOVED to keep Herm as HC (but ONLY with a gameday assistant on the sidelines, he was indeed horrible with clock management, etc – then too, Haley’s had issues as well)
Herm and Gailey as OC and … someone (not Gun) as DC …
I have no issue with Cassel/Vrabel per se … TonyG was gone anyway,. sad to say … the rest of Pioli’s moves have been mediocre to atrocious wastes of time (including HC)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 5:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Given the way he retooled the offense mid-season last year
I would have made Gailey HC (a totally unispiring choice I know) and promoted the hottest D-line coach from a top defense and just let them alone.
by stram#1 on Nov 11, 2009 4:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
would have had NO problems with that
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 5:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't agree with any of this, I must admit.
I don’t know about the rest of you but if it takes more than this offseason to make us competitive I want him gone.
You are only giving Haley/Pioli 2 years, but Herm deserved a third rebuilding year and fourth overall year? Herm may have thought he was building something, but as we all know we actually were worse his second rebuilding year, whereas the point of rebuilding is to get progressively better.
I also really doubt he would of let Piolli trade Gonzo.
I’m afraid there is no “let” involved – Pioli is the boss. Herm wouldn’t have “let” him do anything.
Instead he wants to start a new 3 yr buiding exp. Doesn’t he know we were on year two of a three year building plan.
Those two years actually got progressively worse. Rather than building on the first year, Herm’s team actually got considerably worse the second. However, you want to throw Hailey/Pioli under the bus if this offseason doesn’t show considerable improvement? That’s a bit hypocritical, in my honest opinion.
I’d love to have Herm as a scout. That’s about it.
I liked Gailey, and actually I loved what he did with Thigpen. I really wanted to keep Thigpen, even though I realize my evaluation of his talent is amateur.
Yes, I am currently an avid Haley supporter. I like the tough hate love. I think Pioli has a good plan, though I nor anyone outside of Arrowhead knows exactly what it is. I like the cleaning of house.
I want to forever forget the tenure of Herman Edwards. I’d rather have Art Shell at HC than Herm – at least I’d get a laugh out of it.
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 4:20 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
Just remember
It takes on average THREE years for players to develop from college to NFL players. With that in mind we cant even say anything bad about the players herm brought in. Yes our record got worse look how YOUNG we were. This year would of been the first real test of wether his plan was working. I don’t know if he was ever going to be a good coach I just know that I liked the players he brought in alot.
That would include ALL of the players making a major impact so far this year.
Hali, Albert, Charles, Bowe, Flowers, Carr, Demario Williams, Morgan, McGraw, Dorsey and thats not all the Herm guys just some making an impact.
Without a doubt I believe Herm Edwards would make a good GM.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 4:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
kielcary, your problem in looking at Herm's tenure in KC is thinking HE was "in charge" the first 2 yrs
the truth is, Herm’s first 2 yrs were under King Carl, and it was Carl who allowed the team to get old and then older … Herm wanted to go with the youth movement when he got here but Carl would have none of it, and so … Herm got an old team with issues into the playoffs (barely) where they were buried by Indy, and then …
year 2, Carl STILL thought* we were one or two old veterans away from The Promised Land, and that’s when the bottom fell out of the wagon … Green was hurt (again) and Roaf was gone and Shields and Priest and … well, that was that, and so it wasn’t until …
year 3 (LAST YEAR!) that Herm finally convinced Clark Hunt that hey, we actually DO need to blow it up and start over … and so, the 2008 Draft was the first with Herm at the helm, and one of the best drafts in Chiefs history to date …
so you see, Herm actually had ONE YEAR … ok? ONE YEAR! and now THAT’S been blown up to hell and back by an arrogant, know-nothing GM who had NO CLUE what the team was about and DIDN’T CARE because he intended to BLOW IT UP ANYWAY
oh, then hiring an arrogant HC who’s never been HC before and guess what, makes more stupid sideline mistakes than Herm will ever make … Pioli has NO PLAN other than blow up what was here
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 5:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
one thing I'd like is a URL where Pioli admitted he didn't know the players coming in ...
… that would be marvelous fuel for my torch (pitchfork has already been sharpened)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 5:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll take a URL
where Herm says he wasn’t “in charge” the first 2 years.
Or Lamar/Clark.
Or Carl.
Is this just your conjecture, or do you know this for a fact? Do you think it’s just common sense? Because I would guess that Herm thinks he at least shared the duty.
Herm got an old team with issues into the playoffs (barely) where they were buried by Indy, and then …
And then what? And then he failed to win with a young team with issues? Sounds a lot like his tenure with the Jets…
Thank you for addressing what you consider to be my problem, though I disagree with it.
I find it much more troubling that you’re ready to cast out Haley and Pioli after 8 games. You (nor I) have any idea what Pioli’s plan is.
Your own problem seems to be that you’re tired of losing, like we all are. Also you don’t like the way the rookie head coach and GM have handled things. You’d rather have the kid-gloves appraoch – the Herm way. These things have apparently blinded you to your own hypocrisy – you don’t feel Herm got a chance, but now you’re not giving Haley and Pioli a chance.
Me? I hated the babying of players. I want some tough players who know when to shut their mouths. I want them driven and conditioned. I don’t want fatty running down the sideline being gently encouraged by the coach. I’m want him screamed at until he understands that he is making millions of dollars a year to be in shape and be a freaking professional.
Most of all, I want Brodie to HIKE THE F’ING BALL! :)
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wanted and still want Cower
But its wishful thinking. Herm brought players in I liked mybe he wasn’t hard enough on them but I have a feeling they would of been in shape for the season if Herm was still here. Plus I’ve never said Herm was the best coach I said he would make a good GM.
If half the moves they made were exceptable maybe my opinion would be differant.
They are starting to make smarter moves mostly forced but I think they are not stupid,but should of went with what Herm thought this team needed for this season.(I’m sure even on his way out he would of given that info and probably did). However now that they know what they have we will start to get better.
As it is we went backwards with the loss of Pollard without getting anything for him. It is obvious now that he was worth something.
I also personally think the Cassel Vrabel trade set us backwards as I had little faith in Cassels abilities and everything I worried about is what he is showing. Vrabel was a one year fix and we could of filled that position long term with the 2nd rd pick.
We could of been just as competitive with the QBs we had and got a long term answer at OLB.
DJ not being on the field just seems really Dumb as he stands out everytime he is in there. As Far as saying DJ and Williams play the same position and Mays and Belcher play a diff one that does not make since unless you want the Offense to know what is comming at them. As in certain players blitz and certain ones shield so others can make the play and your OLBs blitz that is giving an offense an easy target. LBs are LBs and MUST be able to make plays at EVRY position from ROLB LILB RILB ROLB if your players can’t do that. Your team has NO buisness playing a 3/4 D. So are best four LBs should be on the field. No one can tell me Mays is better than DJ. Now Mays and Vrabel should be battaling for that spot. For those that say he is to small for OLB. He has great excelleration good agility and balance plus he can use his hands from what i’ve seen. That is a combo you want from your OLB and all you need to put pressure on the QB and be able to cover when asked.
Back to the point they get this year that is their leeway. Next year we better be in the mix, and it is VERY possible, harder than it would of been with a better first off- season
So I’m not throwing anyone under the bus yet just flustrated with the start. I just hope everyone understands how close we are not how far away.
With the players available this offseason we will have to spend, but the players are there that could make this a complete team.
Must have through FA. TE, Top end WR unless Chambers showes us he will be good next year. atleast one OL. an OLB or NT both would be nice one is neccesity
If we do those things the rest can be had in this years draft.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 8:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Its Haley's first year as a head coach, cut him some slack
a couple more wins and he’ll have totaled what Herm did in 2 years. With that said, our defensive line could be special. we held Jones Drew to like 3.9 yards a carry but all the big plays thus far in the season can be attributed to the safety’s, namely Mike Brown. If bad angles were an Art form we would have Picaso as our Free Safety
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Go take a peek at Bill Cowers career with the Steelers
It’s not like he came out of the gate knocking down the whole league and winning it all.
He almost got the boot by the Steelers at one point.
The team started out bad and improved a LITTLE BIT at a time.
Over the course of YEARS they reached first the playoffs, then the championship game, then the Superbowl.
Cower is a yelling screaming disiplinarian of a head coach. (sound familiar?)
He stalked the sidelines screaming at his players, insulting the ref’s, and often giving the media a face of complete anger and frustration to film during the game. (sound familiar?)
Cower demanded the absolute best out of his players on every single play. He expected touchness to the nth degree from each and every member of the team (sound familiar?)
How ‘bout if we give Haley at least enough rope to hang himself before we start talking about replacing him? I know YOU aren’t specifically calling for his head, but some are; and it makes no logical sense. He’s barely through 1/2 of a season. If the Chiefs wern’t going to give the guy at least 2-3 seasons to let him BUILD a winning team out of a complete and total LOSER of a ball club then they would have been better off going without a coach at all.
Are we shooting for the “Cleveland Browns” level of ineptitude where we fire Coaches, GM’s, Coordinators and Scouts on a yearly basis for the next 10 years without every giving ANY of the guys we hire a fair shot at building a program?
Anyone that comes in to build a program is going to want to have a say in the make up of their team. They will have certain kinds of players they want on the field. There are certain traits, and personality characteristics that they value and want to build the core of the team upon. That means some of the guys that USED to be on the team aren’t going to fit; even if they used to be starters and popular.
As to Herm as a GM of the Chiefs:
cough We’d be running the Tampa 2 still.
cough We’d be running the ball 400 times a season into the backs of our “O” line still.
DJ makes big plays. I won’t argue with you.
DJ GIVES UP more big plays than he makes. Look at the film of every snap he’s ever played in a Chiefs uniform. It’s not hard to see. He often over persues the ball and gives up his run gap. He’s often out of position to make the play that was his responcibility. He often makes bone-headed mistakes that have nothing to do with physical ability, and everything to do with football I.Q. He’s NOT a player that can consistently be counted on by the rest of his team to be in the right place, doing the right thing, at the right time. If you’re lined up in a 3-4 front with the ILB heads up on a guard and the NT taking the double team on the oppoiste guard and the ball is snapped:
1) You key on the unrushed OG. If his first step is to stand straight, step BACK (as if to pull), or move laterally, then the majority of the time it will be a PASS. You have coverage responcibilites that most likely include the RB or Slot Receiver. You CANNOT go try to bull rush the QB to make a play on the ball unless the play was specifically designed as an ILB blitz. You HAVE to stay in position to protect the center shallows. DJ doesn’t seem to understand that, WIlliams does.
2) If that same guard’s first step is FORWARD (either straight or diagonal) then the vast majority of the time it’s going to be a RUN play. You have GAP PROTECTION responcibility. You can certainly crash YOUR gap, but you cannot move laterally across the line and crash SOMEONE ELSE’S gap to try and make a big stop in the backfield. You have a gap to protect, and if you leave your gap then the RB has a place to cut back into or bounce/spin back to. You have to protect your gap. You are the ILB and you have a specific JOB to do on every single play. Every time you abandon your job you leave the team open to a big gain by the other team. You might make a big play 2 out of 15 times that you sherk your duty, but you’ll give up something 4 or 5 times out of that 15 because you were out of position. DJ does not seem to understad this concept. He OFTEN mirrors the line and crashs the wrong gaps on runs, leaving the field ripe for a cutback lane, Williams does a much better job of gap protection.
Your teammates have to be able to count on you to DO YOUR JOB. If everyone on the field is out there trying to be a hero on every play then the whole system breaks down. Football is a TEAM SPORT. If everyone on the filed would just play as a team and do thier own jobs the defense would be leagues above where they are now. When 3 guys (DJ, Pollard, and Brown specifically) consistently SELL OUT their own teammates to go after the “big play” it hurts the team more than it helps. Pollard may be worth somthing as a run stuffer to someone else, but to the Chiefs he was a liability. DJ has been getting a new education under Hailey.
Hailey/Penderghast can see his physical ability and they do put DJ in the game, situationally, when their abilities are most advantageous for the team. Saying :“Every time they put him in he makes plays” should be modified to “Wow! The coaches are doing a great job of knowing when and how to use his talents, without exposing the defense”.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Nov 14, 2009 5:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In totality - thats 100% accurate
so you see, Herm actually had ONE YEAR … ok? ONE YEAR! and now THAT’S been blown up to hell and back by an arrogant, know-nothing GM who had NO CLUE what the team was about and DIDN’T CARE because he intended to BLOW IT UP ANYWAY
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 11, 2009 11:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Horse Pucky
Pioli has NO PLAN other than blow up what was here
This statement is complete and total manure. There is no truth to it what so ever.
It’s pretty easy to see there is a plan. In week 8/9 of the season he is STILL working to upgrade the team at every possible position to put the team into the best possible personel position before the draft. Trades have been made to add draft picks, and improvement to the roster have happened on every level (starter to practive squad). A QB was brought in that has already shown he can take a sack in NE and not crumple into a ball of broken bones rolling around in the turf. A veteran LB was brought in that has worked out of the 3-4 and can help be a coach on the field to teach a brand new system to a bunch of poor excuses for LB’s (going off their play the last 2 years in KC).
A spattering of veterans has come in to help teach the young guys. (You know, exactly what 1/2 the people on this website were SCREAMING for last season). Player’s who’s attitudes and styles cannot mesh together have been removed, benched, or disiplined. They will have their chance to get with the program, but if they don’t then we don’t want them here.
A firey coach was hired to get the team in shape and to SMACK the shit out of team to get them to wake up and have some pride in what they do and the uniform they wear.
The team continues to improve. (You won’t believe it when I say this but: Hailey/Pendergast’s influence on Tamba Hali’s attitude is showing positive resultes. Each week he gets better at containing the edge – even though he still sucks in coverage. he’s also showing a motor reminicent of a year 1 Jared Allen. he’s not giving up on plays 1/2 way through). The LB’s are playing better gap protection, but still have a long way to go.
The special teams look positively wonderful.
The team has improved. A rebuild takes longer than 8 days. It will take 2-3 drafts, offseasons, and training camps before a core of players that know how to play as a team start breaking into the level of respectable / good. I said it last year: If they get rid of Carl and Herm I promise to give whoever they hire 3 offseasons and 2 regular seasons before I EXPECT results
I’ve been plesently supprized because I already see improvement out of my Chiefs. It’s hasn’t translated to the W-L record yet, but I never it would in the first season. I expect to see improved play in the second half of the season and about 4 wins on the year. (That’s double last years total). in 2010 after another draft and offseason I would expect to see that total double AGAIN (8-8) or around there. After the 3rd draft, offseason then I would expect the Chiefs to start turning the corner. At that time they will be in a position to tweak the team and and those 1 or 2 more pieces that tip the scales. But TODAY we need to be concerneing with just upgradeing players and bringing in the kind of guys our coaching staff weants to work with.
I have no issues with bringing in a a DC (because Pendergast was picked like the short fat redheaded kid with asthema in a pick up baskedball game – aka he was all that was left when it was the Chiefs turn to pick), or getting a OC more in line with Haileys offensive philosophy; but it would be a HUGE mistake to “start over” for the 3rd year in a row.
Just ask the Cleveland Browns
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Nov 14, 2009 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
rec
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 14, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yeah just ask the Browns and Raiders what a "fiery coach" can do to build self-esteem
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 15, 2009 12:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The Browns
Change coaches gms, and coordinators more often than I change socks.
The Raiders don’t have a “fiery” coach. They have an inept coach that has never won at ANY level all the way to high school football as a head coach in his entire career. He’s only the coach because no one else wanted the job.
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Nov 15, 2009 3:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would sure as hell love to see a post on What you think :)
Instead of chasing around on threads with your comments/Posts.
I know your hours are busy but….
A post would bring all the comments together.
Be well Tex !
Geaux Chiefs
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them. Washington & Oakland!
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 16, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Good post
I don’t think Clark Hunt managed the transition very well. Once Haley came in they started tearing everything down with nothing to replace it with. They were the ones with no patience. They didn’t do their homework.
I agree Cassel is a bust. He’s the biggest reason we’re not winning. It will show again this week against the Raiders.
by choirboy on Nov 11, 2009 4:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
There once was a QB
Who had a couple of mediocre seasons with some decent teams.
He comes to his new team, they go 6-10. He completes only 56% of his passes. He throws 24 interceptions and only 17 touchdowns.
Damn that Trent Green was a bust!
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Except when he wasn't throwing INTs
He showed promise and looked like a starting NFL QB that wasn’t comfortable comming off a knee injury witch is hard to do and you have to take into consideration that Trent had to change almost every part of his game to be a Pocket passer and did that in ONE year.
NO you cannot compare Cassels first year to Trents. Trent is on a totally differant level and was a STARTING college QB.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 5:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Cassel has thrown less int's and more TD's than Brokie has with the Chiefs
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 11, 2009 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and your point?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 7:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
its not about Cassel vs Brodie
I think most of us are saying that Cassel isn’t that much better than what we have – Brodie or Thigpen. But the fact Pioli gave up franchise-QB type money and a 2nd RD pick for Cassel – that makes him truly a waste and for that reason, we now have to wait for Cassel to develop (if he ever does???) – the entire team had to take a few steps back to accomodate Cassel. Brodie-Damon-Tyler combo at least got Bowe over 70 receptions. I don’t think Bowe would ever see those numbers again with Cassel at the helm.
You know that critics biggest problem with Cassel was last year? His sack total. and they thought it could be New England o-line. Now we know that Cassel himself contributed a lot of that as well for holding on to the ball to f***ng long.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 11, 2009 11:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow holding on to the ball has to do with his comfort level
is Aaron Rogers a terrible quarter back becasue he has the most sacks in the NFL? No, Its becasue his offensive line wont give him any time to throw. As for the Chiefs, its not like our running attack is causing opposing defenses to tremble. without any balance they can just keep sending 7 guys and doubling Dwayne Bowe because none of our other receivers can get open. Cassel had 260+ yards and 2 TD’s last week and even though they came at the end of the game he still didnt make any terrible throws. What makes a QB a bust is poor decision making and I’d say Cassel’s done alright in that department given the amount of talent he has at his disposal.
Maybe everyone should just chill out and let the team progress because I saw some very good things from our team in this loss. On more thing, why is this second rounder so important? if I were an GM and someone offered me a youth, talented, and eperienced QB for a second rounder I’d pull the trigger in a heartbeat because from what I’ve learned, the NFL Draft is always a crap shoot. Better a player whose proven himself in the NFL than one who hasn’t
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yanno, Green had a HC with a clue ... Cassel has Haley
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 5:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not saying Haley has no clue by admitting this
But I love Vermeil, and I can agree with the first portion of that comment :)
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I agree Cassel is a bust. He’s the biggest reason we’re not winning. It will show again this week against the Raiders.
I won’t say Cassel was a bust in terms of being a decent to good QB. But he is a bust in terms of what we gave up for him – 2nd RD plus that big ass contract. Because of the money committed, Pioli and his ego would have to stick with Cassel through thick and thin. Even if it takes another 2 years to prove Cassel is not worth that signing bonus or he isn’t really a fanchise-type QB, we could have at least done the youth movement – rookie QB (2009 -Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman…) or (2010-Bradford…), With a rookie QB, I have no problem waiting 2 years or so as they develop but not a 7th round pick QB who got lucky playing behind Brady. A guy who many thinks in the college ranks – smart HC like Pete Carroll knows his talent – Cassel could not break the starting lineup at USC.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 11, 2009 11:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, Cassel was
behind 2 Heisman trophy winners making him arguably the 2nd best QB in the nation!
Long time kool-aid drinker & too old to learn a new trick! No flip-flopping allowed!
by ttownmikey on Nov 12, 2009 7:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
arguably is a word for it ... correctly is not a word for it
come on, mikey … by that set of non-standards any kid riding the pine for 3-4 yrs while someone else at his college wins the Heisman is “arguably” the 2nd best in the nation … please
to extend that logic, some kid behind the 3rd or 4th top Heisman vote-getter is “arguably” the 7th or 8th? no way …
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
can't be argued
because who knows? Maybe, maybe not; probably not, yet still maybe! No way to ever know unless you can catch a trip with that McFly kid! :)
Long time kool-aid drinker & too old to learn a new trick! No flip-flopping allowed!
by ttownmikey on Nov 12, 2009 10:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, you're missing the point
It’s not so much about them being the same guy.
If you want, I can go find 20 quarterbacks who had a rough year adjusting to a new system and then succeeded. You can come up with excuses for each one, but the idea is still the same: a rough year adjusting to a new system doesn’t doom a quarterback, especially when his team is lacking production in most other areas.
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 5:21 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree with that comment
There is just not much visible to make me think Cassel is capable of being in the class of Brady, Manning, Brees, Rivers, Warner, any of the top 10 – 15 QBs in the league.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 5:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well thats all well and good but I have a suprise for you
wait for it… No QB whose played in 18 games ussually looks like Peyton Manning. You act like any of the QB’s you just named as the class of the NFL just entered the league and started throwing 50 Touchdowns a season. It takes time for a QB to develope, more so than any position in the NFL. So if in 2 years Cassel can’t make something of himself then come talk to me, but until then give it a break and watch him progress
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:33 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Brady, Rothlisberger, Ryan, Flacco,
Brees and many others showed alot there first years and most QBs in there 1st year show promise. Cassel is NOT a rookie and CAN be compared to players such as Steve Young his first year starting, Grbac, Bono, and many others. As sad as it is he is at the bottom of the list and not good at all.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 12, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Drew Brees, Steve Young
were TERRIBLE their first and second years and in Brees case, his third year as well.
Brees was benched for 5 games, Doug Flutie started, and after Brees returned, promptly committed 6-turnovers in two games, which caused SD to trade the first pick in the draft to the Giants and draft Philip Rivers.
In Young’s case, his second year with Tampa Bay, he threw 8 touchdowns and 13 interceptions and was sacked 47 times.
most QB’s DON’T show promise their first or second year, including many of the current and past greats.
by bansky on Nov 12, 2009 4:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The point is
we had hope. The team was young and improving every week. Now we have no hope and no direction. The team is getting worse every week. The “right” 53 BS is wearing thin.
by choirboy on Nov 11, 2009 6:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hope?
There was no hope with Herm. With him I expected to lose every single game because he always found a way to lose it. Getting rid of him was improvement by subtraction.
I understand that everybody is tired of losing, myself included. But to expect a new GM and HC to turn this sinking ship around in a half season is just asinine.
Bottom line – Clark hired Pioli and Haley to transform this team into whatever they thought would be the best in order to win. That’s exactly what they’re doing. They are installing their schemes and bringing in the types of players they need to run them and an overhaul of these proportions doesn’t happen in a year. Transition is never easy, but this team needed a change. Badly.
Yes, it’s been frustrating so far, but I don’t understand how anyone can expect results this fast. Everyone called for Carl’s head for years. For the first time in 20 years we have new leadership; a breath of fresh air like never before and people are already giving up on him!
Why? Because Herm put us through 3 seasons of misery. We’ve watched this team be so completely inept for so long now that no one has any more patience. You want to fire the guy after a half season and start all over again? You don’t think the next guy would do exactly the same thing and dismantle the team and remake it into what he wanted? Then we have to sit though another season just like this one? No thanks.
Like I said, I’m just as tired of the losing as you guys are, but now I see hope like I never did under Herm and Carl. I know it’s hard, but just have some patience. I really believe we’ll be better down the road because of all these changes. If we still look like this after another season or two I’ll be right there on UC’s “Fire Haley Bandwagon” but I just don’t see it happening.
Cheer up people. :)
GO CHIEFS!!!!
by TheScootness on Nov 11, 2009 8:41 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Never argued that Herm did not make mistakes on the sideline
However I liked his players and Ideas. I would of loved for him to be are GM. Players love him and he knows how to scout talent.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 11, 2009 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
True
Sorry for the rant. Herm’s just a sore subject for me after all he put us through.
He seems like a hell of a guy and I do think he knows his shit, especially with the secondary.
by TheScootness on Nov 11, 2009 9:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
odd, you see hope and I see a total trainwreck
you and I are on opposite ends, Scoot … I respect your right to your own opinion, but I think you’re dead wrong (esp on Herm – the only good players we have now are the ones Herm brought in last year)
you’re wrong on how much time Herm had to “do his thing” – he had one year … ONE (see my post above: kielcary, your problem in looking at Herm’s tenure in KC is thinking HE was “in charge” the first 2 yrs) – sorry man, IMNSHO you’re just flat-out dead wrong
now, I understand all you Haley apologists think he (Haley) should get more time, etc … but do NOT sit there and say that Herm had 3 years of HIS players and HIS rebuild, he did not! he had ONE year (last year) … Pioli and Haley have blown up the rebuild that had JUST started, and made things worse (again, that’s IMNSHO)
like you, I hate the losing … even more, I hate the clusterphuque that this team has become this year
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well obviously the only good players are the ones Herm Brought in
If Haley brought in most of the great ones then he would have singlehandly had the best Draft and Free Agency in history. Don’t you think its a little naive to think that Haley would bring in 4-5 stud rookies who are sure fire pro bowlers. If you don’t then either you’re delusional or dont understand how the NFL works
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow, DBOWE, you're right, I have NO IDEA how the NFL works ...
cuz see, first off, I thought Pioli was bringing in players, being the GM and all, and secondly, since neither Pioli nor Haley had a clue as to how bad the O-Line was until middle of training camp and beyond, I have to say that I’m truly stunned, because see I thought the GM (and HC) would have a clue themselves about the buys on their team BEFORE THE DRAFT, since, you know, they had like four months to watch video …
all they had to do was talk to any casual Chiefs fan to kow what the O-Line was like … they didn’t do their homework, but they were willing to trash what was here with no regard to what it even was … they had the basis for a rebuild and junked it for … a rebuid, except that theirs won’t begin til next year
yeah, I just don’t understand the NFL … you are right as always
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"...but they were willing to trash what was here with no regard to what it even was..."
“What it was” was a 2 – 14 team.
by Dove40 on Nov 12, 2009 12:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow, what happened to the old "it takes time to turn around a franchise"
or the good old “young players need time to develop and grow and mature” … so Herm had one year to do a rebuild … sort of like building a house, he dug out the basement area and poured concrete for a foundation, and then …
Pioli and Haley came along with a backhoe and wrecking ball and broke the foundation into tiny little pieces, and now …
we get to start ALL over again … NEXT YEAR
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe one
of these days he’ll get another job besides an analyst but I doubt it , if anyone looks at his record. When he was with the Jets, he took them from 10 wins to 9 to 6 to 4 & he took us from 9 to 4 to 2! I’m not a Math major but those numbers show a definite pattern of getting worse & worse. No upticks anywhere!
Long time kool-aid drinker & too old to learn a new trick! No flip-flopping allowed!
by ttownmikey on Nov 11, 2009 10:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Herm should be a DC
IF I was a GM or new HC looking to rebuild a staff, I get Herm as my Defensive Coordinator.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 11, 2009 11:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT?
I understand that everybody is tired of losing, myself included. But to expect a new GM and HC to turn this sinking ship around in a half season is just asinine.
2008 Miami Dolphins – Bill Parcells + Tony Sporano did
2008 Atlanta Falcons – Thomas Dimitroff + Mike Smith did too
And for the record – it was well documented that Scott Pioli was supposedly a class above all the other known GMs. Yet this? I wasn’t crazy about Pioli’s hiring but when he let Jim Schwartz go to the Lions and then ran out of time and candidates to eventually come up with some sorry ass BS that all along it was Haley – I lost faith there and then. And then the Cassel trade? It showed me AGAIN – he’s not about finding the right 53, it beginning to be more like the cheapest 53 unless you have some family ties – he rewards them with $$$.
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 11, 2009 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so you can come up with 2 times thats happened in the History of the NFL
In 50 years since the NFL merged with the AFL its happened… Twice. Maybe that should tell you that it happens very rarely in the NFL. If you think this is gonna be an overnight thing and we are just gonna become playoff contenders then please stop watching the Chiefs, it will only end in heartbreak
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so DBOWE, since Herm really only had one year of rebuild with his players, by your admission it was wrong to fire Herm ...
correct? you tell me that in one simple, clear statement … it was wrong to fire Herm based off one season … and I’ll admit you might know something about how the NFL works
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Still on the 1 year thing?
He had 3 drafts and 3 offseason to make this team better and he couldn’t. Miami and Atlanta didn’t have to blow up the team to make it better.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, he did not have that long - period
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So are you on Herm's top 5?
Is that how you got this info that nobody else has heard of?
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, actually I got it by reading ...
you know, newspapers and internet stuff … KC Star reports (and not Whitlock, though I love him)
stuff anyone would know if they paid attention at the time
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Really because I have never heard anyone but you say that.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Show the links then.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
from 2-3 yrs ago? sure, right
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Another
When Edwards met with club chairman Clark Hunt and general manager Carl Peterson two days after the end of the season, he reiterated what he had said while interviewing for the job two years earlier: Successful teams are built through the draft. They agreed.
“You can’t be halfway committed to this,” Edwards said amidst a draft in which the Chiefs made a dozen picks in seven rounds and came away with what they believe could be six or seven immediate starters. “For two years we had been kind of committed, not totally committed.”
Sports Illustrated 5/5/08
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 2:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here are a few...
Now, Clark is in charge at a time when the Chiefs are struggling at another low ebb. Last year, Herm Edwards’ second as coach, the Chiefs lost their last nine games and finished 4-12, their worst season since their new boss was in junior high school.
With Hunt’s blessing, Edwards and Peterson began to completely rebuild. While turnarounds can happen quickly, the next couple of years in Kansas City figure to be anything but smooth.
“I counted the other day 49 players in camp who weren’t with us last year,” Hunt said. “That’s a lot of new faces.”
USA Today 7/29/08
That being said, these are the things that come with starting over. Edwards expected to deal with plenty of growing pains when he sold general manager Carl Peterson and owner Clark Hunt on rebuilding and now Edwards already has seen plenty. The key for the Chiefs is recognizing that all of this year’s ugliness has an undeniable value: It will help them grow into a team that understands how to deal with adversity. “The older guys can see that the younger guys have what it takes to be a good football players,” Edwards said. “They just have to learn how to do it.”
ESPN 9/12/08
Fans want blood, but it’s not going to happen from this owner. I’m telling you, Clark Hunt is not about to start listening to the drunken belligerent fan in the parking lot. Yeah I understand, the fan buys the season ticket and pays the ungodly price for parking at Arrowhead, but Hunt is an educated man. He graduated No. 1 in his class from Southern Methodist University, and he is not stupid enough to make snap decisions.
"At the end of the day, you step back and really evaluate things from top to bottom, starting with your head coach and including the front office," said Hunt. "At the end of the day I concluded that coach Edwards and the team will have the best chance to be successful in 2008 with stability in the front office."
In a sense, all of a sudden Peterson is a rookie general manager again. Hunt stripped the crown from the King and is letting everyone know the Chiefs belong to him. Hunt wouldn’t directly come out and say it, but ultimately Peterson has one year to prove he is on board with Hunt and Edwards to get younger and convince Hunt he is the right guy to lead the charge.
Carthage Press 1/20/08
Everyone expected a bumpy ride after third-year coach Herm Edwards was given permission to blow up his aging team and start rebuilding from the ground up.
But nobody thought it would be this bad.
ESPN 10/28/08
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
and another
"I said that from the beginning," Edwards said. "I said when you do something like this, you’re doing it for the right reasons. That was something I thought about, something we all thought about, and it was the correct thing to do."
As owner Clark Hunt begins his search for a new general manager, the Chiefs (2-13) prepare to close out the worst season in franchise history on Sunday at Cincinnati.
Edwards, who launched the rebuilding project with Hunt’s blessing, said he has no idea if this will be his final game. He’s made no attempt to hide the fact that he hopes to come back and continue the program that this year included 18 rookies.
TimesLeader.com 12/23/08
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 2:27 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
all rec'd and ty, NJ! your bonus check is in the mail ...
bringbacktheglory, I hope those posts from NJ help you see that what I’ve been saying allong is, in fact, fact and not “just opinion”
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 2:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the one from the Carthage Press, last paragraph, proves what I've been saying all along
NJ, if you’re ever in Denver, dinner is on me!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 2:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I remember what article you are talking about but not where/ when it was.
BTW, KC Star articles from that long ago are not avail on the internet.
I’m sure there are more, but I have to do some work today.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I know - you can look them up via archives but that costs cash to do ...
but I do have a few headlines and posting dates:
Building for future is Chiefs’ main concern this season
ADAM TEICHER, The Kansas City Star
You won’t hear it said anywhere at Arrowhead Stadium — administrative wing, coaching offices, locker room — that this Chiefs season is about anything but winning.
And why would they? Other teams have made quicker, more astounding turnarounds.
But realistically, the expectations are quite different. That, too, is in order for a team in the beginning stages of a massive rebuilding phase.
Published on 2008-07-20, Page C1, Kansas City Star, The (MO)
Aging Surtain battling against Chiefs’ youth movement
ADAM TEICHER, The Kansas City Star
RIVER FALLS, Wis. The signs are too obvious for anyone, much less a 10-year veteran like Patrick Surtain, to ignore.
The Chiefs spent their offseason unloading many of their over-30 players, including Surtain’s fellow starting cornerback, Ty Law. Then they drafted one rookie, Brandon Flowers, and made him a starter.
They later drafted another, Brandon Carr, now the third cornerback. Throw in coach Herm Edwards’ stated affinity for going with young…
Published on 2008-08-13, Page D1, Kansas City Star, The (MO)
Edwards still feels youth movement was way to go for Chiefs
ADAM TEICHER, The Kansas City Star
Herm Edwards might pay for it with the loss of his job, but he remains convinced the massive youth movement he embraced for the Chiefs was the proper way to go.
Even knowing how the season turned out — the Chiefs are 2-13, giving them the most losses in club history — Edwards said Monday that he would be willing to go this route again.
“This was the right thing to do for the organization,” Edwards said. "I said that from the beginning. When you do…
Published on 2008-12-23, Page C1, Kansas City Star, The (MO)
(and these last two especially)
Give the Clark Hunt Chiefs a chance
The Chiefs are starting over, and that means we should, too.
As best we can, we need to let go of the past, distance ourselves from the disappointment, turn our attention away from King Carl and evaluate the Clark Hunt-led Chiefs with renewed optimism.
What happened on Thursday, when Hunt met individually with a representative of every local media outlet with a passion for the Chiefs, was the most significant moment in Chiefs history since Lamar Hunt hired Carl Peterson and Marty…
Published on 2008-01-20, Page C1, Kansas City Star, The (MO)
Clark Hunt willing to build with young players
ADAM TEICHER, The Kansas City Star
The view from Clark Hunt’s Arrowhead Stadium suite Thursday revealed a snow-covered playing field and the harsh reality that while some teams are readying themselves for important weekend games, the Chiefs clearly are not.
Inside, though his long silence and plans to retain general manager Carl Peterson and coach Herm Edwards for at least another season might indicate otherwise, Hunt wasn’t taking that fact well.
The Chiefs’ chairman didn’t…
Published on 2008-01-18, Page D1, Kansas City Star, The (MO)
=========
as you can see, the real beginning of the “Herm Era Rebuild” began after the 2007 season … Hunt signed off on it at the end of that year … it was Jan 2008 that Hunt decided it was, indeed, time to “start over” and allow herm to totally and truly REBUILD the team, with youth and through the draft
and there you have it, people … your PROOF in black and white that Herm had ONE FREAKING YEAR …
bringbacktheglory – I accept your apology in advance
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
according to Martin manley at UFR, stats prove that Cassel holds the ball too long
even at the cost of an interception, Cassel “… can eliminate some (not all) of the sacks by being willing to get rid of the ball when the protection breaks down … In some situations, the choice to hold a ball and take a sack is the worst choice … Cassel is avoiding interceptions and near league average in that category, at the expense of taking too many sacks”
http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1590
and a previous column shows that Cassel indeed has taken too many sacks going back to his days in NE (compared to some guy named Brady) … when QBs change teams, the one stat that changes the LEAST is sacks, because sacks are “… more of a function of the QB – not the team”
QB 2008 2009
Thigpen 5.8% —
Cassel 8.3% 11.0%
Brady — 2.8%
“What it shows is that with essentially the same KC team from 2008 to 2009, Cassel has an 11% sack rate versus Thigpen’s 5.8%. Also, with essentially the same NE team, Cassel had an 8.3% sack rate vs Brady’s 2.8%. Despite the sample size, it appears this is primarily a function of the QB – in this case Cassel”
http://uponfurtherreview.kansascity.com/?q=node/1581
any questions?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 6:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
shotgun
pigpen ran out of the shotgun most of the time, if not damn near all…in passing situations. of course his sack % was lower. plus, he was more of a runner, cassel- more pocket passer.
as far as NE is concerned..obviously the offense is going to more efficient with a hall of famer and the best or 2nd best in the game today, vs. a first time starter. look up the same stat for brady’s first year as starter. guarantee you its at least close to the 8% and a lot higher than the 2.8%…
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 12, 2009 5:28 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
the name was Thigpen ...
and yes, Brady’s first year was about 9% but it’s been down to roughly 3% since …
but then, this isn’t Cassel’s first year, is it?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Of course he holds the ball too long.
And I don’t like it. A lot of it is his fault, but not all of it. Yeah, Lance Long was open on that slant against Jax and I almost took a duker right there on my couch. But really… he’s running for his life, trying not to die, after the O-Line was ignored by a certain GM and HC…. I can’t remember their names….
What it shows is that with essentially the same KC team from 2008 to 2009
Ummm…..
Lets see…
New right tackle, new right guard. New WR2 and WR3. New TE1 new TE2. COMPLETELY NEW OFFENSIVE SCHEME. I mean last year Galey freaking changed the whole offense just to take pressure off of my boy T-Thig.
Wowzas. Someone needs to do their homework…..
by kielcary on Nov 11, 2009 6:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
someone DID do their homework ... the stats shown are just for Cassel, but ...
Jason Lisk (who is a frequent poster on UFR and also writes for Football Reference) did a study on 5 QBs that changed teams, not just 1 … Cassel brings on a lot of issues all by hisself
as for the changing of the system, if it cuts down on sacks and gives us a better chance to win, bring it back! or do you enjoy seeing Chiefs go thru this week after week? I don’t …
Haley is worse as OC alone than Herm ever was as HC, and he’s blown as many calls and plays on the sidelines this 1/2 year to date as Herm did ALL of last year, so …
wowzas!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 6:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Arrowspread
won what? One game last year. This years offense also has one win. At best, last years system is a wash compared to this year.
And Haley’s in game gaffs aren’t even in the same league as Herm’s soulcrushing failures.
The Kansas City Chief's 2009 record will be 5-11.
by Druful on Nov 11, 2009 7:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And Haley’s in game gaffs aren’t even in the same league as Herm’s soulcrushing failures.
So true. Yes, Haley’s made some mistakes, but I think he’s learning from them. I’ve already seen a change in his demeanor towards the players and he’s starting to make some better playcalls IMO.
Herm never seemed to learn from anything. He made the same dumbass mistakes over and over again. He never adjusted to anything at halftime. He clung to his vaunted “Cover 2” D and his R2P2 offense like they were the Holy Grail until he was forced to let Gailey install the Arrowspread, which was still just a one-half pony. Sure, it was more exciting, but it couldn’t get the job done in the end.
Also, Haley’s situation is quite a bit different. He’s doing 3 jobs at once (which I totally disagree with) and this is his first year as a HC. He’s still learning. Herm supposedly knew what the hell he was doing. Wrong!
by TheScootness on Nov 11, 2009 8:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, Dru ... so Herm and Chan had ONE HALF a season with that new offense ...
been one half a season with the curren trainwrect and the results are the same – one win
remember, Gailey put that system in middle of last year after Croyle and Huard both went down and he HAD to use Thigpen … funny thing, at least half of those last 8 games, or more, the team was “in” those games, competitive … sure, they got burned late most games (and certainly one game was on Dwayne “Hands” Bowe vs Chargers) but they played hard EVERY DOWN (unlike 2nd half of Eagles game this year)
so yanno, if you wanna compare that HALF a season to THIS half a season … I’ll take LAST year’s last 8 games over THIS year’s first 8 games anytime
anytime
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 9:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that arrowspread was a joke
simply designed to fit the skills of pigpen. not an nfl offense and only looked good at times because at least we moved the ball and scored some points. it was only a patch, and i was embarrassed by it, as a loyal and passionate fan of my team. we might as well have been drawing plays up in the dirt..
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 11, 2009 11:35 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Excuse me
only looked good at times because at least we moved the ball and scored some points.
Isn’t that one of the soul purpose of sustaining a offensive drive to give your Defense a rest? Our defense did improve in 2009 but with this crappy Offense that makes an MVP out of Colquit because they can’t get a damn 1st down is pathetic. I rather have last year’s Arrowspread because it moves the DAMN chain. NOt this year’s version of “leading the league in 3 n outs”
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 11, 2009 11:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes
you are right…it kept the D off the field a bit longer and moved the chains more. we still only won one game with it i believe, and i just didnt like it. its not what i want out of my chiefs. i want an identity, year in and year out. either a vermeil type offense, or a pound it out ball control style. something of that nature. just my opinion….and what i would like to see. Dont think it was going to win us any divisions or playoff games personally and it just drove me crazy thinking we just threw it in there in desperation because we had nothing else to go to. kudos for gailey coming up with somethin to move the ball a little bit, but i didnt like it and think it was crap as far as the future is concerned.
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 12, 2009 5:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree 58
The point of the Offense is to hold onto the ball to give the defense a rest, and the Arrowspread wasnt that bad we scored and sustained drives. And what exactly is the problem with changing your offense or defense to suit the players you have, hell look @ Miami, they’re running the Wild-Cat which teams have seen for 2 yrs now and still can’t seem to stop it. IMHO, we should still run the arrowspread with Cassel as the qb, this why he’d be in the ’gun or out of the pocket more.
The Greatest Trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
Officially on the FIRE TODD HALEY BANDWAGON.
by madtheory on Nov 12, 2009 9:09 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
just didnt like it
thats it. i dont dispute the fact that we started moving the ball better. im simply saying that it was only a temporary solution since we were down to our 3rd qb and it was mainly done out of desperation to fit pigpens skills, please the fans by possibly winning a game or two, and maybe save jobs. It wasnt going to be part of anything in the future i dont believe, and i think i would rather lose in order to get better in the future, than sell out just to win a few games here and there, knowing the offense was going to change again, or go back to the original anyway.
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 12, 2009 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
from Lisk's original post on Pro Football Reference
“I just think we measure line play by the wrong stat if we focus solely on sack rate. Sack rate does seem to have a lot to do with a quarterback’s style, decision making, and willingness (or unwillingness) to gamble with a throw before ready. A quarterback with a tendency to take fewer sacks is going to get rid of the ball; it’s his yards per attempt and completion percentage that are going to reflect whether the line did a good job. Was he throwing the ball when he wanted to, or before he wanted to?
To me, it makes sense that sack rate would most belong to the quarterback. It is the simplest statistic, and the one that the quarterback can exercise the most control over. It is simply “to release the ball, or not release the ball”. What happens after the releasing of the ball brings in a lot of other factors—teammates, the opponent, luck. "
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=4395#comments
and no, I’m not calling for Cassel’s head on a platter … just saying he holds it too long and needs to get rid of it sooner, one way or another
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 6:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Herm was bad...
There is really not a whole lot of debate there. We were winners when he got here, and losers when he left.
He not only helped destroy the franchise, he helped create a culture in which it was perfectly acceptable to lose. There is never an excuse for that. Every team should always put together a game plan and try to win. When your team gives up before you even begin then you know you have problems.
I won’t get into Cassel really, but I’ll just say its a shame he didn’t go to a college that didn’t compete for the national championship every year so then hater wouldn’t use his position as ammo against his skill.
Like its hard to be a good college QB? There are HUNDREDS of starting QB playing every saturday. Would you rather have a starter from Coastal Carolina? Or a backup at USC. That entire argument is retarded. Being a star in college does NOT equal being a star in the NFL. So don’t use Cassel not starting in college as an argument against his skill.
Use statistics in the NFL that are relevant, and I will listen. I am not a Cassel homer by any means, he has looked below average in KC, but so has everyone taking a snap since Trent Green. I hope he improves, because he sure as hell looked pretty good in New England.
by Lucasjr5 on Nov 11, 2009 6:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
well yeah, there IS room for debate ... again, people see what they want and interpret things as they want
and I’m no different, Lucas, although I see things differently than you (like duh) … the team was old when Herm got here and Carl wouldn’t allow him to do ANY kind of rebuild, so the team got OLDER – and older still until what was left HAD to be buried – that was TWO yrs ago – ONE year ago Herm STARTED the actual rebuild … gonna say that again so you truly understand: ONE YEAR AGO … one year, got it? one year, that’s it!
so all you “Herm Haters” who call for Haley to get more time and more than a year, etc etc ad nauseum … where were you a year ago, at the end of Herm’s FIRST YEAR of rebuild?
what’s good for the goose is good for the gander, no? so far Haley has won 1/2 of the games Herm won last year … WOW! I’m EXCITED, are YOU? (ok, I lied … and I want Haley gone as of September … this year)
and I won’t get into what QB was from where … look, Vermeil went to a SB with a guy who filled in for an injured Trent Green who had been a grocery sacker not long prior to that … so let’s not go there, ok? (and I never said anything about where Cassel went to college, I could care less)
the stats I used and posted are indeed relevent, maybe more than any other stats that anyone could come up with (aside from W-L, which right now is pathetic)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Carl wouldn’t allow him (Herm) to do ANY kind of rebuild, so the team got OLDER"
Carl didn’t allow Herm to draft?
by Dove40 on Nov 12, 2009 12:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
that's correct - Carl didn't allow Herm in on the draft/new player acquisition process for those first two years ...
… not until LAST year (2008) did Herm have that control, and last year was one of the best drafts in team history
Carl insisted on old, older and oldest players as if one or two “vets” here and there would get him his coveted Super Bowl team …Herm was stuck with an aging mess, yet managed to get that old team to the playoffs at 9-7 … even THEN Herm wanted to go young, but again, Carl said “oh no, just a few more over the hill guys” and so AGAIN Herm was stuck with an old team, only then it was even older than ever before, that was the 4-12 year (2007)
after that, Herm, Carl and Clark all had a little sit-down chat … Clark (finally) agreed with Herm that it needed to be blown up and rebuilt from scratch … and so last year (2008) was the FIRST true rebuild year, the FIRST true year that Herm had HIS players and HIS draft …
so sure, it DOES take time to rebuild, it DOES take time for players to grow and learn and mature, but Herm got only ONE year … seems reasonable to me that if Herm got ONE YEAR then Haley should get ONE YEAR, too
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lucky you, got to sit in on all the meetings Herm and Carl had.
Getting all that inside info nobody else has ever heard of.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
OH SNAP bringback...youch...that even hurt me and I'm way over here!!
oooh we got ourselves a debate goin’ on now!! I LOVE IT!! Hit em’ Hit em’
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
besides that
we’ve played 8 games, for christ’s sake. i’d like to save some of these posts and compare them to the tone taken a year or two from now. when we are winning…
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 11, 2009 11:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
A leader must be competitive
Being a star in college does NOT equal being a star in the NFL. So don’t use Cassel not starting in college as an argument against his skill.
Cassel did not show that he was competitve or leadership skills at HS or college level. And if he was anymore competitve, he would have at least transfered out of USC, even if its a school such as Coastal Carolina – so that he can be a starter in college football
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 12, 2009 12:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Leadership skills in HS?
are you joking? I guess it was alot easier getting scholarships to USC 7 years ago then it is now. Ohh wait, its not
by DBOWESHOW on Nov 12, 2009 1:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly, dbowe
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 12, 2009 5:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice numbers upamtn
Its obvious Haley’s “hoping” he’ll get better. I thought he said he went by what he saw not what he “hoped”. Guess not as far as QB goes.
Credibility is all a coach has and Haley’s losing his.
by choirboy on Nov 11, 2009 6:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
so you're saying I'm "preaching to the choir(boy)" here?
you know I just HAD to run with that – ty for the comment!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 11, 2009 7:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why he didn't keep Herm?
Fear. Plain and simple. That is what keeps all GM’s / coaches from being successful. Is he afraid to hire someone that won’t be a puppet? We will find out next year. That’s also what keeps GM’s/ coaches from drafting athletes that win and compete, but don’t have the stats ( ie. 40 times, size) or, they don’t fit their “system”.
by 12t on Nov 11, 2009 7:22 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pioli didn't keep Herm because he didn't want to go 0-16
Herm did get us a lot of records just too bad none of them were ones we wanted.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 11, 2009 7:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I have no doubt that Herm could have achieved 0-16. He sure as hell tried last year.
by TheScootness on Nov 11, 2009 8:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
For more reasons than I have time to post, this thread =
I'm officially on the 'Draft Eric Berry' train.
Haley-Crennel 2010.
by scottbwalters on Nov 11, 2009 9:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
no doubt
i dont understand half of the text, and the poll doesnt make any sense.
herm is gone. carl is gone. gailey is gone. 2.7 had been banished.
haley and pioli are here and thats the way it is. Smart moves, not so smart moves…doesnt matter. They are it, and Haley may not be for very long, who knows but pioli will be. end of story. All they can do is keep trying to turn this thing around and I for one do alot of bitching but I also have faith in them at this time. Besides that, the Hunts have never been the type to fire people so get used to it. pioli as general manger prob for at least 10 yrs.
by be cee on Nov 11, 2009 10:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It wouldn't matter
if Herm was still here. We would still suck. End of debate!
I’m afraid I prematurely shot my wad on what was supposed to be a dry run, if you will, so now I’m afraid I have something of a mess on my hands. -Arrested Development
When we blitz, have the LB's do a KC Strip. Do this in rememberance of DT.
by mistamic on Nov 11, 2009 10:31 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Screw Herm. Screw Haley.
Herm needed to go, but Haley didn’t even make the list of possible head coaches I would have liked to see in KC. We’ve traded one bag of poop for a different bag of poop.
by Pilcrow on Nov 11, 2009 10:33 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
+10
Predictions as of 06.24.2009.
Larry Johnson will be a top 3 fantasy pick once again in 2010 (after a monster season in 2009.)
Dwayne Bowe will be a 2009 Pro Bowl selection.
Brandon Flowers will have at least 6 INTs in 2009 season.
Todd Haley will have a sideline shouting match caught on TV yelling at one of his asst. coaches.
by 58 was my friend on Nov 12, 2009 12:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lighten up, francis
Just like novocaine. give it time; always works..
by be cee on Nov 11, 2009 11:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Wow. What can I say about this?
There are three things wrong with your post:
1. Herm is the worst pro coach that ever came down the pike.
2. Because of 1. (above) Herm should not be a head coach in the NFL
3. Because of 1. and 2. (above) Herm should never have been the Chiefs coach
by G.L. on Nov 12, 2009 10:40 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I wanted Herm as GM
Reasons = Look at the teams he was a SCOUT for and what they did. Then look at the teams he was a D Cordinator for and their records.
No I do not think Herm was a good HC but he is great at Talent evaluation. Players love him.
He knows football in and out. Knows what a front office for SB contenders looks like. He knew what the players were on the roster and had a plan for getting the right players here that in my opinion WAS working.
I think Herm was the one to take over for Carl.
Just one other thing he has connections to the coaches that I would want to lead this team in Cowher, Dungy, Marty, and others that I have more faith in than Haley although I do not feel Haley is a bad coach yet.
The puppet comment makes perfect since because I feel the ONLY reason LJ was on the field and Cassel is still starting is all on Piolli and Haley has little or NO say in it.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 12, 2009 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Then look at the teams he was a D Cordinator for and their records.
Herm was never a defensive coordinator.
No I do not think Herm was a good HC but he is great at Talent evaluation
Based on what? How many players has he drafted that went on to do anything meaningful (ie- superbowl/probowl)?
He knew what the players were on the roster and had a plan for getting the right players here that in my opinion WAS working
So if winning 6 games in 2 seasons is working, why cut the new people here short by only giving them 8 games?
I think Herm was the one to take over for Carl.
Now you’ve lost all credibility. Where is Herm working again? Oh, right. He’s a broadcaster. What GM or owner thought Herm should run a team over Pioli? How many teams tried to hire Pioli from the Patriots? How many awards has he won that shows he’s a stellar NFL executive? Pioli was the top choice for any team looking for a GM in the last 3-4 years because he knows what he is doing. Clark Hunt went out and got him. If Pioli doesn’t work out in the end, fine. But you have to give the guy a chance to turn around this trainwreck that HERM AND CARL BUILT.
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 1:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Very well said.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
SaiNt, I'd love to show you and bringbacktheglory "the light and truth" of it all, but it seems both of you are blinded by hate and refuse to look at any kind of facts ...
so the two of you can enjoy your illusions that Haley and Pioli are the best thing since sliced bread … the rest of us live in reality, and when this team is still falling apart in a few months or next year, I’ll enjoy seeing your reactions
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
YES!!! Someone else that says what I say...
you dreamers and pretenders need to come back to reality…look at the stats and the record and the internal mess we have…..Haley and Pioli (suck)…there I whispered it.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! don't wake them, they're dreaming ...
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I never said I love what Haley has been doing.
But I sat through Herm’s ineptitude for 3 years, I can give Haley at least one.
Chiefs set an NFL record,most roster changes in 1 season.
by bringbacktheglory on Nov 12, 2009 1:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with that
one year for Haley
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You were arguing against Pioli,
now you’ll give Haley a year? A year to do what? Win more than 2 games? Because that’s the standard at which HERM set the bar.
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're entitled to you opinion
but the exact same thing could be said about you and your opinion of who’s in charge now. Except change the losing to winning ;)
I’m not blinded by hate or illusions. Do I agree with every move these guys make? Hell no. But saying Herm would make a better GM than Pioli is absolutely ludicrous. Pioli was like the best first round draft pick in the draft. He was the CONSENSUS choice to be the guy and succeed anywhere he went. So he’s been here 11 months and you’re ready to throw the towel in on a guy who EVERYONE IN THE NFL said was the best pickup? So you’re done with Glen Dorsey then too right? Because he was the best pick in his draft at #5, and he’s not put this team on his shoulders and turned it around. And he’s had two years. And he was a Herm/Carl pick.
Fickle fans, you all are. What were you saying when Pioli and Haley got here, again? “HOORAY!” ? Yeah, thats what I thought
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
no, actually ... I personally never wanted Pioli or Haley to begin with
especially Haley
so you can’t call me fickle … and as I’ve been watching and cheering for the Chiefs since they moved to KC, includingg some very, very bad years in the late 70’s that made last year’s team look DAMNED good, I think you’re barking up the wrong tree here
but nice try
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Right so you'll just dodge all the "facts" I presented and take out the one blanket statement I made
about the consensus reaction of AP to the news of Scott Pioli being hired, which was positive. So since you can see the future as well as alternate futures, tell me why you’re arguing with people on the internet and not making boatloads of money and ruling the world again?
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What are the facts against them again?
Because all I see is an opinion of yours. If it takes draft picks two-three years to develop like you say, then shouldn’t the guys who made those picks see them through at least two of those years? Carl got 19 years, Herm got 3, now you’re only going to give Pioli and Haley one year? What lollipop licking dream world do you live in that such an ineptly run and coached team with barely any talent can be turned around in one offseason? That’s not the norm, those are exceptions.
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, Dorothy, you insisted so here you go ...
welcome to AP!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice fact
You’re not worth arguing with.
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 1:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
so ,what is it you want? both NJ and myself have links and quotes from various news sources ...
… that prove w/o question that Herm had one year to rebuild the team … yet you (and otherss) go on about how he had 3 years
you constantly argue that Haley and Pioli should have longer than … what? one year? Haley’s a mistake to begin with, IMNSHO, as is Pioli … consensus choice? by Pioli’s one vote, yes …
facts, you want facts … alright then: 1-7 is a fact, total offense 27th, total defense 27th, sacks by defense 31st, time of possession 29th, 3rd down conversion percentage 32nd (that’s out of 32 teams, by the way)
anything else I can do for you? YOU mentioned the “lollipop” so I tried a bit of humor, since the truth that I posted earlier seemed to fly past you so conveniently … YOU equated Carl and Herm, I did not …. YOU said Herm had 3 yrs to do a rebuild, not true (see above posts by NJ and myself) … you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but when yours and mine don’t agree, you’ll have to do better than calling me fickle or a lollipop licking dreamer to change my mind, especially when YOU jump on me for “lack of facts” after offering none yourself
you’re most definitely not …
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Herm was not even
a fair evaluator of talent. Look how many of Herm’s players are no longer in the league or are marginal players at best. If Herm had been a decent evaluator of talent, we would not be in nearly as bad a shape as we are now. Herm single handedly wrecked this team with minor assistance from Carl Peterson.
by G.L. on Nov 12, 2009 1:43 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
really? we have more players still on the team from LAST year's 2008 draft than any other ...
… that was the draft where Herm really had the final say
Attempted Herm Slam = FAILURE
instead, Pioli and Haley offer us their version of a “fix”
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Herm's abysmal failure
speaks for itself. I, nor no other living human can slam Herm more than the damning expletive of his own incompetence. Herm slam=failure? Sorry, not even necessary.
by G.L. on Nov 12, 2009 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Listen, this arguing over Cassels imaginary talent is pointless
He could, he might be, if only, you’ll see, those are all imaginary until they materialize. Right now he is what his stats say he is. All too often the apologists, which I don’t always disagree with btw, fail to recognize that we don’t hate Cassel. We don’t WANT Cassel to fail. We don’t want him to look confused, jittery and indecisive at times. We don’t WANT him to overthrow sure fire passes.
It’s very simple really. We aren’t disagreeing with you about what Cassel might be or could be. It doesn’t matter because you can’t PROVE something that hasn’t happened yet. You can’t disPROVE it either. We’re not arguing something that can’t be proven or disproven.
We are going by reality. What’s ACTUALLY really happening. All these “what if’s” and “you’ll see’s” are irrelevant. All that matters is what is going on in real life, not on someone’s wish list.
I see Red and Upamtn’s debate sparked this comment. But it’s not only I see red it’s a lot of us on here. You guys should know that we WANT Cassel to be the greatest QB to ever play the game and lead us to 5 superbowls. We really really WANT that bad. But right now, he is a subpar QB. The NFL EXPERTS have discussed him repeatedly this year so far. With always the same conversation.
Cassel at the moment IS a below average QB. They can’t all be wrong about him. The stats can’t all be wrong. The game film doesn’t lie and isn’t biased. So again, useless argument.
What Cassel or anybody else for that matter COULD or MIGHT become is all stuff for story time. You don’t get the Lombardi trophy for a good imagination. You get it for DOING it!! REALLY doing it…not wishing or pretending your GOING to do it someday.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 11:14 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Just a quick viewpoint on the whole "Herm only had one year to rebuild" idea...
Herm was the head coach for THREE years, and by the time year 3 began, there were 26 players on this team that were drafted by Herm.
You expect me to believe Herm got 26 players in one draft? If he did that, maybe you are right…maybe he is good.
by Dove40 on Nov 12, 2009 12:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Imagine if...
Cassel had not been traded for and the Chiefs stuck with Brodie or Thigpen… I would be willing to bet that Brodie would be on IR, Thigpen would be running for his life, we would still have only 1 win and everyone would be calling for Pioli’s head for not cutting a deal with all of his great contacts in the Patriots organization for Cassel. This O-line provides terrible protection, no matter who is throwing the ball, and running the ball is going to be tough with these guys. O-line development and a defense that stops giving up the big plays will take care of a lot of problems on this team.
by sandpro on Nov 12, 2009 12:46 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
And don't start with the Mark Sanchez argument...
he would have gotten killed with this line and we would want to kill Pioli for drafting a QB with 1 year as a starter in college instead of making a move on a Qb who proved he could play in the NFL by starting for a year with the Pats.
by sandpro on Nov 12, 2009 12:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No
I wanted to wait for one of this years QBs. Maybe Croyle stayed healthy. Just the idea of Colt McCoy who will be statisticly the best College QB to ever play the game by the end of this season or one of the other VERY talented QBs comming out this year is the way I would of went. So this being a 2-14 saeason would NOT have bothered me NEAR as bad if we had not given Cassel 63 mill when he is not worth it.
I would of much rather had a LB, OL or WR in the 2nd rd than Cassel. The one thing that sets me apart from alot of people is I think Vrabel was and is a weakness on our team not a strength. So with both of those things and the other decisions they made that were total wastes like Zach Thomas, cutting Pollard for NOTHING, Engram, Goff, Niswanger still starting, no TE, Juggling OL all the way into the Reg Season, Still don’t know who are LBs are, Having no clue what to do with are RBs, not upgrading the return game. and sticking with players who were not producing when we were told this team was not going to look at what ifs, or could bes, the players who give us the best chance to win will be on the field. They are proving that to be wrong and starting to look like they don’t know what that even means.
by kcchiefstd on Nov 14, 2009 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Dove40...let me just say this..
I agree with you. I don’t know where people are getting off saying that in Herm’s first year he wasn’t in control etc. Maybe I’m wrong and maybe that’s all true, but I don’t how anyone could know that since we aren’t in their closed door meetings. We didn’t read Herm’s contract and we don’t know really what went on in the draft room.
I could be wrong, but it seems to me that’s a hell of a lot of speculation and guessing…i.e. opinion than hard fact.
You all know upamtn is my boy so I ain’t bumpin’ heads with him, but I’m just wondering where all this insider information came from. Herm had 3 full years here in KC to prove himself. He did the same thing in NY.
He took a Belichek team and backed into the playoffs with them and then destroyed them. I don’t see his resume’ working to his favor in this argument. He’s not Belichek or else I’d agree that the system must have worked against him. but he has NOTHING to go on a tract record that would prove he can do anything but fail as a HC in the NFL.
As an evaluator of talent, I have no doubt he is very good. But as a hc?? NO!
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 12:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
kray, I luvya brother ...
and yanno, I have never said or implied that Herm was the greatest HC ever or whatever, ok? he badly needed a sideline assistant on gamedays (come to think of it, so does Haley!) … but he DID deserve more than ONE YEAR of actual rebuild time
again, the first two yrs Herm was here, it was Carl pulling the strings, and bringing in a lot of washed up vets (sort of like Pioli is doing now) and we know how that went … Herm inherited a team from Vermeil that was old, he got them to the playoffs but knew we needed a rebuild, Carl said “no” and the wheels fell off the bus … it was only then that Clark stepped in and over-ruled Carl and allowed Herm the total youth movement that he wanted and the team NEEDED
so yeah, one year … period, end of discussion
but I luvya, kray!
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was going to reply but you said "end of discussion followd by an exclamative conjective
bubbalubbba….so I concur to you ups!! (-:
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oops...i meant a parcells team soorryyyyy!!
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 12:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
disagree with the Parcells team
beyond Herm’s first year. He took the Jets to the playoffs in 3 of his 5 years there. Also, Mangini took “Herm’s team” to the playoffs after he left.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wow, you mean there were GOOD PLAYERS? you mean like, Herm was a GOOD JUDGE OF TALENT???
wow! who knew?!? well, other than kray … and myself … and a few others
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yes true NJ..
but look at the way he got there…9-7??? that’s pathetic…his record got worse each year…he got so lucky to make the playoffs both times he did…he didn’t do a good job over there either…the more distanced he was from the Parcells team, the less he won…it was a straight drop off after the took over.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I can think of 10 teans right now that would kill for 9-7.
Worked for AZ last year. Doesn’t matter how you get to the show, just that you’re there.
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yah I'm not arguing that with u....I'd kill for a 9-7 record this year lol
Just don’t feel he really did a good job in NY. Better than Matt Millen did in Detroit (-:
so that’s a positive!
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or Mangini anywhere...
or a lot of other coaches…
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 12, 2009 2:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
boy that's the truth...Mangini sucks bad...
and whoever coached the Lions last year sucked bad…the 70’s buccaneers were horrible….yes there has been worse coaches…it’s more just a personal opinion on Herm.
He just didn’t do a very good job overall IMO. I don’t know. I just don’t think he’s hard enough and disciplined enough. Haley is the other extreme. So pick your poison. I love Herm as a person. I wish he was our D coordinator and talent scout..
Plus I miss his interviews…they were awesome!!! (-:
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 2:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
kray, Herm was lucky to guide that 2006 team to 9-7, it was older than Vermeil when he got here
and yeah the team imploded the next year, Herm knew it would but Carl figured “just some more OLD guys and we’ll be alright” … wrong, Batman! that group got older and needed wheelchairs …
and it was AFTER that year that Herm really got the youth movement he wanted all along … last year
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
very well upamtn...I will reserve judgement on Herm for another day
I will do some more research…I know the players loved him but he didn’t make them work hard enough. He let them take it easy and that’s what his former players said about him not me.
He goofed up a lot with clock management last year too so I wasn’t impressed with him. It’s more a personal opinion than anything else.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
kray, no argument on being too easy on players, and absolutely no argument on game management issues
… which is why I’ve said (many times) that I’d love for Herm to still be here BUT only with a sideline assistant for game days
that said, haley’s been proving himself to be rather inept with the clock as well … halftime of Chargers game, we did get a FG, but Haley allowed WAY too much clock time, and it cost us dearly … had Herm done something like that people would have been screaming for his head, so telol me: why does Haley get a “free pass” on that?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL upamtn...
OMG…upamtn’s use of “facts” and “statistics” even “links” is a very disturbing trend…
I liked it better when we just yelled louder than everybody else and believed that somehow made us right…which of course it did…ya’ know like racist Al Sharpton.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
LOL upamtn...
OMG…upamtn’s use of “facts” and “statistics” even “links” is a very disturbing trend…
I liked it better when we just yelled louder than everybody else and believed that somehow made us right…which of course it did…ya’ know like racist Al Sharpton.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I TRIED YELLING BUT NOBODY WOULD LISTEN ...
exclamative conjective?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
that's the word up's ...ty my brother...
anyone who says that Herm can’t evaluate talent is misinformed….he just didn’t do a great job as a HC. He is great at picking talent…and paying them crap..
Dbowe is making 500,000 a year..lol…SUCKER!!
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
not for long
besides, who did Bowe’s original contract? Carl, right? and how long til that expires …
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Nov 12, 2009 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know I just think it's great we only paid him peanuts..lol
take that sir drops a lot!! Anyway if Haley was half the coach that McDaniels is he could get Cassel into a groove like Orton is…
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
(whispers) I made that word up don't tell anyone...
I don’t even think it’s legal to bring a exclamative conjective into the country without registering it first.. (-:
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
probably because what you're yelling is ridiculous.
Might as well be holding a sign that reads “THE END IS NEAR.”
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok someone post a pic of someone holding a sign that reads "the end is near"
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 2:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yay sandpro..
I got a kick out of your comments too…you were really getting into it..lol
you were all like “AND DON”T EVEN START WITH THE MARK SANCHEZ thing" lol
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But I didn't yell
It was more of a terse preemptive strike :)
by sandpro on Nov 12, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
well I wouldn't say ridiculous....it's more of opinion really..
I just personally don’t like Herm as a HC but …. Upamtn does so that’s ok too.
by krayfish on Nov 12, 2009 2:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Funny how this post has only 1 rec
but THIS post has 42 recs. If the majority rules, this thread = failure.
This isn't a "kum-bye-yah" campfire! THIS IS FOOTBALL!
by IISaiNtII on Nov 12, 2009 2:52 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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