Grading the Chiefs Rookies At The Halfway Point
by Matt Conner on Nov 11, 2009 11:00 AM CST
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PrintAt the official halfway point of the season, it seems a good time to stop and check on some key areas of the Chiefs. This time around, the rookies deserve a closer look to see how the class of 2009 are measuring up in Scott Pioli's first draft class - after all, this was one of the key reasons we were so excited to get the New England exec.
To get a good idea of measurement, we'll take a look at three things:
*The half-season stat totals
*What was being said at the time of the draft
*What we can tell at this early stage of their career
The details can all be found starting with Tyson Jackson after the jump:
Meaningful Stats: 12 total tackles, 1 pass defense, 0 sacks
What Was Said: "It's not just the size-speed ratios that are outstanding. It's not just his athletic skills, which are considerable. And it's not just his resume of playing for one of the best college football programs in the country at LSU. It is Jackson's personality and approach to the game that hooked the Chiefs. "He loves football," Pioli said." -NFLDraftScout.com
Now it should be noted that some were really surprised at this draft realization. Many had Aaron Curry targeted for this pick, although most should have known that NOBODY knows what Scott Pioli is going to do at a given time. Year in and year out, we'll find this to be true as I assume most Chiefs picks will be a mystery when we hear the name called.
What We Can Tell: Thus far, not a whole lot. The third pick in a draft, this DE is intended to be an anchor for the defensive line. And there are signs of good things (with this week's seven tackles), although that's certainly not a quality measure by any means. The reality is that he didn't register a single tackle in three other games and only has 12 on the season.
In half a season, it's hard to tell where Jackson's force is being felt. There's no tangible difference in the pass rush, at least for him personally with zero sacks. And the run defense was 30th in the NFL last season and 25th this season with Jackson. Of course, it's all a team effort, so perhaps some of the pass rush this season is due to Jackson's d-line presence. Perhaps not.
Alex Magee, Third Round Pick (3rd overall)
Meaningful Stats: 3 total tackles, 0 sacks
What Was Said: "Alex ran his 40 in a time of 4.82 and posted a 4.42-second short shuttle and a 7.15-second three-cone drill. Magee is one of the more versatile defensive linemen in this year’s draft and should see his name come off the board during the third/fourth round." -Wes Bunting, National Football Post
"Alex Magee who was added to the roster on Tuesday, exploded by Andy Levitre, using his hands to get by the former Beaver. Magee displayed a speed rush and showed a nice combination move when he powered outside to set up with spin move back inside. I really like his quickness." -Scout from the Senior Bowl 2009
What We Can Tell: Another high d-line draft choice and another question mark - wondering where the impact is felt. You could almost say "ditto" to the Tyson Jackson lines above, except Jackson finally put some stats on the chart with this week's game. He was a disruptive force upfield in college (16 tackles for loss over his career, including 6 his senior season at Purdue).
More to come in Part Two.
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Jackson & Magee Grades
Jackson: F
It’s his rookie year and d-linemen take some time to develop, so I’m not calling the kid a bust. But when the kid’s on pace for 24 tackles and he’s the #3 overall pick in the draft, that sucks. Seriously…that’s a shitty performance. The #3 pick, unless he’s a QB, needs to be an immediate contributor.
Krumrie needs to be fired as soon as possible. Just get him away from our linemen.
Magee: F
I see no reason to think that Magee is going to be anything good in the NFL. Especially under Krumrie’s tutelage.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Would probably be a F- for Jackson if it wasn't for a solid performance in Jax
Johnnie Morton: The Man. The Myth. The Legend.
by craig in calgary on Nov 11, 2009 11:17 AM CST up reply actions
Yup
Pretty ugly performance from him overall this year. We definitely aren’t getting much value out of him and he needs to turn that around quickly.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Are you totally ignoring last week?
If you take out last week I would had totally agreed wight the “F” grade, but last week Jackson really stepped up. I’d have to differ my judgement on Jackson until a couple more games to see if this is a sign of things to come or just a flash in the pan.
Check out my blog on software development:
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by Scaryclouds on Nov 11, 2009 12:18 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Last Week
He had a different guy coaching him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Post Was Only About Players
And I can’t really give the guy more than an F because that’s how he’s produced to this point, IMO. Not saying he can’t get better.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Ucrawford is that guy
That if we were 5-2 he would say he was a good pick, Since were 1-7 he thinks he is a bust
OHANA!
by darwithabar on Nov 11, 2009 12:52 PM CST up reply actions
Actually
If he had better stats and the defense was better than bottom 10, then I’d think it was a good pick.
And if you’ve got a problem with my comments, you can dispute my points. If you just want to bitch about me (or any other commenter), you’re crossing a line.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Really?
I hardly see how that was disrespectful at all, But if your upset about it, I apologize.
OHANA!
Better just to walk away, trust me, been there before.
UC, the comment was that last week he had a good week and you said it was because he had a different coach. You were the one that brought coaching up. I was just saying that if you’re going to use that as an excuse for Jackson playing well then you should be grading the coaches and not the player.
I'm Just Going Off Of Performance Of The Player
So far I think Jackson’s performance has been an “F” (although I suppose it might merit a “D” after last week). I’m not going off of potential (which I still think he has) or coaching…just performance in relation to where he was drafted.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
And If He Does Better To Finish The Year
Whether it’s Krumrie coaching him or someone else, then I’ll up my evaluation of him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
He Had A Consultant Come Into To Spot-Check Krumrie's Work
And then he more than doubled his tackle total. On the other hand, it was against a really bad team so it may have been a fluke and the consultant coming in may not have had any effect.
Still an F from me so far, but I see the potential to move up a lot.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Clarification
Haley had a consultant come in to spot check Krumrie.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I got ya. I was just wondering because the guy basically said “but what about last week” and you seemed to dismiss his improvement just because it was a different coach. It’s all good.
Not Dismissing It
Just want to see it happen more than once before I buy in that it’s a legitimate improvement instead of a fluke game.
But I definitely think Jackson needs a better d-line coach than Krumrie. And that he could be a good player (or better) if he had a better d-line coach.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I think F is a little harsh...
I dont think its fair to grade him purely on this years stats. I think if you were to weight that against the performance of other rookie defensive ends in a 3-4 defense he doesn’t deserve an F. Now Im not saying he is an “A”, but I think I would almost go as far as a C-.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
Oh Wait...Nevermind
Yes, I think he showed more last week than he has all season, but in overall performance for the season I still give the guy an F (maybe a D-) because it was only one game.
And I’m just grading Jackson because the post was only about players and their performance. I’m not making an exception for crappy coaching or anything else, and I’m not saying he can’t get better. Just that he’s performed at a terrible level so far. And yes, I do blame the coaching for most of that but the fact remains that giving him a higher grade would be giving him points for things he hasn’t done.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
By Means Of Comparison
Brian Orakpo, Redskins (13th pick) – 26 tackles, 5.5 sacks
Everette Brown, Panthers (43rd pick) – 8 tackles, 1 sack
Connor Barwin, Texans (46th pick) – 9 tackles, 1 sack
Michael Johnson, Bengals (70th pick) – 13 tackles, .5 sack
Matt Shaughnessy, Raiders (71st pick) – 10 tackles, 1 sack
That’s five 2009 rookie defensive ends taken well after Tyson Jackson who have outperformed Tyson Jackson. Like I said…not calling the kid a bust yet, but it’s not looking good.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
just a question
are all those guys playing in a 3-4 also?
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
Nope
But Michael Johnson, Matt Shaughnessy, Everette Brown, and Connor Barwin are all backups. So Tyson Jackson is being outperformed by rookie reserve players.
Orakpo is actually an OLB right now so his stats probably aren’t as comparable to Jackson’s
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Didnt realize that..thanks
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
Neither are the 4-3 DE...
Totally different posistions, Geez man come on
OHANA!
by darwithabar on Nov 11, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Orakpo sure isn't
and he’s the only one on that list who’s significantly outplayed Jackson….in terms of stats anyway.
It was pretty well documented that Pioli wanted to trade down, to the point that he was willing to take absurd return value. Since there were no takers he played the hand he was dealt.
What would you have done with the #3 UC?
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
Drafted Aaron Curry Or Eugene Monroe
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Curry
44 tkls, 2 sacks, 2 forced fumbles
by NJ Chiefs Fan on Nov 11, 2009 11:38 AM CST up reply actions
Curry should have been
the guy for the Chiefs. I was pretty shocked they didnt’ get him, although Tyson played exactly how we wanted him to on Sunday. A big guy that does not get a ton of numbers but stuffs the run… they did pretty good against Jones-Drew.
According to ESPN stats
Curry is tied for 67th in the league in tackles…as the starting MLB for a 4-3 D. His two sacks are for a total of 3 yards lost.
Of course his stats are better, starting middle linebackers in the NFL tend to have really good tackle stats. But they aren’t exactly great in context.
Predictions:
Kansas City will not win more than four games in 2009
Kansas City will have a new OC and DC in 2010
Kansas City will win at least seven games in 2010
MLB usaully get more tackles the 3-4 DEs
Ecspecially a 3-4 DE on a bad defense.
OHANA!
by darwithabar on Nov 11, 2009 12:57 PM CST up reply actions
Re: Curry
I don’t like the idea of using a top 5 pick on a 3-4 ILB. It has less positional value than a 4-3 OLB and much less positional value than a 4-3 MLB. If he was playing in a 4-3, then I think there’s an argument he might have been worth a pick. But if Jackson ends up being a good player, he’ll be much more valuable to the team than Curry. JMO.
Jon is correct.
(and an excellent writer!)
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
Agreed About Jackson's Long-Term Value
The key is, though, to get him better coaching. Krumrie’s in his fourth year with the Chiefs and he’s developed no dominant linemen in his time here, despite having two drafted in the top five picks and three in the first round. So far Hali, Tyler, and McBride have all failed as linemen (although Hali has shown some flashes as an OLB) and Dorsey’s not reminding anyone of Reggie White. Over a pretty lengthy career as a line coach, Krumrie’s turned out no stars. The Chiefs must get a new defensive line coach if they expect any of these guys to develop and reach their full potential.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I agree about Krumie
I’m hoping some of the current coaches are with the team due to the late hiring Pioli and Haley. I’m like to see a new OC (or atleast a someone to be QA/QC for the offense), new QB coach, new DC, DL coach…etc
2009-10 Predictions:
1. Chiefs will win ATLEAST 6 games, which is a big improvement over 6 wins in 2 seasons
2. Succop will bring stability to the K position for the first time in years
3. Chiefs D will atleast double the number of sacks form last season
4. Cassel will be a top 15 QB
5. Todd Haley won't make a poster and jump around holding it up welcoming the Chiefs players to summer camp, I mean TRAINING camp
He Was Already A Good Pass Rusher Before Krumrie Got Here
Averaged 10 sacks a year.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
why do you keep bringing up coaching?
when you mentioned earlier that this post was about the players?
who gives a shit who coached him? the Jax game shows that he at very least has the potential to be a good player at a position that historically takes a longer time to develop at.
sounds like you’re more upset with krumrie than jackson…
if rhymes were valiums, i'd be comfortably numb
by Chris Sembower on Nov 11, 2009 7:11 PM CST up reply actions
I must say...
Curry may turn out to be good… But he hasn’t impressed so far. He definitely isn’t as good as Willis in SF, whom he was compared to.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 2:46 PM CST up reply actions
Using stats to make a point doesn't work
If it does then I can argue that Mike Brown (47 tackles 1 sack) has been just as good as Brian Dawkins (53 tackles 0 sacks) this season. Or how about Demorrio Williams (47 tackles) is in the same league as Vonathan Vilma (54 tackles 1 sack)? How about Wallace Gilberry (14 tackles 3 sacks) would be just as good as Mario Williams (25 tackles 4 sacks) if he played full time?
I’ll admit that before the Jax game, Jackson hadn’t done anything special and would not deserve a good grade. However, I would say that our d line that got pushed all over the field last season has looked better this year and Jackson is a part of that. If he has a couple more games like the Jax game by the end of the year his numbers will look pretty good when compared to other great 3-4 DEs in their rookie years.
Feeling "The Love" and "Drinking the Kool AId"
by KCporkchop on Nov 11, 2009 1:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
How does
8 tackles, 1 sack and 9 tackles, 1 sack outperform 12 tackles and a pass deflection?
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 11:26 AM CST reply actions
Oh, and 10 tackles 1 sack
13 tackles and 1 sack compared to 12 and a pass deflection is pretty even too.
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 11:27 AM CST up reply actions
Correction: .5, not 1.
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
Red N Gold...
We should have drafted the gu that made the 13 tackles and 1 sack, Geez what was pioli thinking?
OHANA!
by darwithabar on Nov 11, 2009 12:58 PM CST up reply actions
Could a sack be equated to a pass deflection if it resulted in an incomplete pass?
I mean both result in a loss down.
Maybe I’m stretching for TJ.
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
I don't think you're stretching at all.
We all knew that T-Jax wasn’t a “sexy” pick, and that stats weren’t going to be what defined him. Granted the D as a whole isn’t where we’d like them, but I’d have to say the front 4 have gotten better.
I’d just have to disagree with UCrawford that five of the DE’s after Jackson have outperformed him. IMO, T-Jax is tied for 2nd in DE production from the stats UC gave.
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions
As I Noted Elsewhere
You can only argue that the others haven’t been better for their teams if you ignore two basic facts:
1) They were all drafted well after Tyson Jackson
2) Except for Orakpo, none of them are full-time starters like Jackson.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
None Of Those Players I Named After Orakpo Are Starters
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
its not fair
to compare 3-4 DE’s to 4-3 DE’s. The job of 3-4 DE’s is not to make tackles but to take on blockers to free up LBers. So basically if Tyson Jackson is doing his job correctly then the Linebackers would be running wild. But since our Linebackers aren’t great either it doesn’t show.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 3:07 PM CST up reply actions
I am going to give Anthony Pleasant some kudos
for making an impact on Tyson Jackson. Pleasant came in a week ago to work with Tyson and I think it is working out. If Anthony is not the engine behind Jackson’s play in Jacksonville then kudos to Tyson (which he deserves after a great game anyway).
Bewsaf
How many times have teams ran it at TJ?
It’s gonna take forever (if at all) for him to develop with Krummyrie teaching him.
No one ever says, "It's only a game" when their team is winning.
George Carlin-R.I.P.
I'll Go A Step Further
I don’t think Jackson will ever develop with Krumrie teaching him.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Richard Seymour
YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD
2001 NWE 13 44 25 19 1 3.0 0 0 0 0 0
Also the players you mention more productive than TJ play OLB as well, which is a position that gets more tackles.
Again
Orakpo is an OLB. But the others are DEs. And none of them are starters.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
4-3 vs 3-4
I thought we established before the season starts that DE in a 3-4 is not the same as a DE in a 4-3.
And why are we comparing a pash rushing OLB to a 3-4 DE?
by Boots 58 on Nov 11, 2009 11:39 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Fine...Remove Orakpo
Now explain why Jackson can’t outperform rookie backups.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
He plays in a 3-4
His job is to take up blockers.
I will agree he should have more stats that make people happy, perhaps it will increase in the second half
And They Might Improve
I should also reiterate that I don’t think Jackson is talentless or even necessarily a bust. I just don’t think he’s getting good instruction from his defensive line coach (which is an argument I’ve had with Krumrie for awhile in regards to Chiefs linemen).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I can agree there
I think he has been underpreforming as well, and perhaps that has to do with the line coach, although I don’t really read up on line coaches very often.
But I disagree that Connor Barwin or some of those other players would be better fits for the DE on the Chiefs, if that is what you are insinuating with listing them and comparing them.
I Probably Should Have Phrased That Clearer Then
My gripes about Jackson are more digs at the coaching.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Yeah
I got that impression after reading all your comments. Like I said I dont know too much about our position coaches.
The point I’ve been trying to get across is that 3-4 DE bring more to the game than traditional statistics can tell you. I like to think TJ has been doing well, but there really isn’t any way to prove it. Hopefully he improves enough that the statistics come with it, but I just dont know if they ever will.
I Think If He Gets A Better Coach That They'll Improve Some
Krumrie really is the worst, though. I don’t know how he keeps getting jobs because he’s had a long career and produced very little over it.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Actually
I’m comparing a full-time starter (Jackson) to reserve players (Barwin, Johnson, Shaughnessey, Brown).
So I don’t have to compare defenses. Jackson’s not measuring up.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
The point is
They play different defensive styles, and therefore have different responsibilities
A Defensive Lineman Has The Same Basic Responsibilities In Any Defense
Tackle offensive players, sack the QB and occupy blockers. Jackson doesn’t do the first two very well and I haven’t seen much evidence to indicate he’s doing a lot in regards to the third.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Re: Defensive Lineman responsibilities
Yes and no. A 3-4 DE has a much, much higher emphasis on occupying blockers than tackling players and sacking the QB. His job is more to open up opportunities for Vrabel and other blitzers than to make the plays himself. Look at the best 3-4 DEs in the game. They rarely ever have more than a handful of sacks and usually end up somewhere between 40-65 tackles. Nothing spectacular.
acutally, yes it matters
Do you compare Dwane Bowe’s tackles to a backup defensive player? Wow, D Bowe has ZERO tackles.. he must suck!
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:42 AM CST up reply actions
Actually, I'm Comparing Apples To Apples
Defensive ends taken in the same draft.
If you want to start trolling, then go elsewhere.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Actually, They Are
They might be comparing Rome apples to Mackintosh apples, but they’re still apples.
Except for Orakpo…who I will remove from the discussion.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Or Windows to Macintosh
Different operating systems, but get kind of the same thing done.
3-4 DE has different responsibilities than a 4-3 DE. You refuse to understand this, so there is really no point continuing speaking about TJ with you
Excuses to Excuses
You are just making excuses for poor play. Way too early to call him a failure at this point, but hasn’t been playing well thus far.
who's trolling?
Jared Allen and Ty Warren have dramatically different responsibilities, and thus dramatically different stat lines? Do you really not understand this?
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:46 AM CST up reply actions
You Are
With your Dwayne Bowe comment. Knock it off and stick to the linemen.
Again…a defensive lineman has three basic responsibilities in any base defense. Tackling, sacking the QB, and occupying blockers. Jackson doesn’t do two of those well at all and there’s marginal evidence to indicate he’s good at the third considering the team’s defensive ranking (although there is some circumstantial evidence that he’s helped because of the rise in sack numbers).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I guess you don't understand the use of sarcasm to make a point
i wasn’t dissing bowe
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
I Understood The Sarcasm
You were attempting to portray my argument as absurd using an absurdist technique by insinuating that my comparison of defensive ends was comparable to contrasting a WR to a defensive player by defensive stats. Thing is my argument was not remotely this absurd and I suspect you knew this when you made the argument.
That’s trolling.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
oh trust me
he understands the use of sarcasm to make a point; it has been widely documented ;)
by The DBowe Show on Nov 11, 2009 11:54 AM CST up reply actions
Sarcasm Is Often Lost In The Written Format Without Emoticons Added To The Text
That’s why I use them whenever I’m being sarcastic. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
off topic
youre a ku fan right? dude, thomas robinson looks much better than i had even hoped
by The DBowe Show on Nov 11, 2009 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
I Haven't Gotten To Watch A Lot Of Games Out Here In Arizona
But I’ve heard good things about him so far.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Why
Are different lineman projected to be 3-4 DE or 4-3 DE? Could it be they have a different skill set that sets them apart? Maybe that they have different roles within the defense?
They just don’t compare stat wise when you compare DE from different schemes.
Okay
Then why don’t you research the average production of 3-4 defensive ends around the NFL and tell me how Jackson stacks up in comparison?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
See below
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Nov 11, 2009 11:59 AM CST up reply actions
I think what he's saying is...
All the hall of fame coaches who will tell you that 3-4 D-linemen (and interior linemen in general) can’t be measured by the stat book are wrong and he’s right.
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Everything In The NFL Is A Statistical Position
How would you prefer to measure Jackson’s contribution?
By team defensive ranking? Because I’m pretty sure you don’t have much of a case there.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
How do you measure O-line? Or Fullbacks?
Pancakes and Sacks allowed? Yards the RB gets while the FB is in play?
Why are the majority of DE elected to the probowl from 4-3 defenses? They get more sacks, because they are a different breed of player.
Actually, Yes
Pancakes and sacks allowed as well as yardage for the RBs are valid measures of an offensive lineman’s performance (although of course not comprehensive).
Why are the majority of DE elected to the probowl from 4-3 defenses? They get more sacks, because they are a different breed of player.
I’m not disputing that the sack numbers are inflated for 4-3 ends. What I am saying is that until the Jacksonville game Tyson Jackson was performing horribly for a defensive end in any defense and that his production for the team isn’t stacking up to even players taken later than him. I’m also saying that I suspect it’s a matter of coaching, not necessarily talent on Jackson’s part.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Compare him to Glen Dorsey at this time last year
Compare Jackson to rookie DT’s or 3-4 DE’s, his role is to eat up blockers so the LB’s can make the tackles and sacks. His job is to push the pocket back into the QB’s face not make the sack. His job isn’t to make the plays, it’s to cause disruption so others around him can.
It’s just Gravy when he does make the plays, now when the D-Line gets a real NT and the D-Line comes together, Jacksons stats still won’t be sexy but you’ll know he’s there.
by mcclanahanman on Nov 11, 2009 12:12 PM CST up reply actions
I Don't Think The D-Line Will Ever Come Together As Long As Krumrie's Here
We’ve been waiting for it to happen for awhile now and all I see every year is a d-line that can neither rush the passer nor stuff the run as well as linemen that never seem to live up to their draft position.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I agree there.
Keeping Krummy was a head scratcher. How a coach survives after coaching the NFL’s worst DL ever is beyond me. This new guy (can’t remember his name, help me out here) that was recently working with TJ makes me raise my eyebrows. Maybe Krumrie is close to ending his tenure here?
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 12:16 PM CST up reply actions
Peterson (I Think)
And we can only hope it’s a sign Krumrie’s close to the end. Keeping him after last year was another blindingly bad decision.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
I am adding
- Hold the point of attack (or don’t get driven)
I would think that any objective person would at least concede that TJ has held the point of attack from day one.
I also think that any objective person would at least concede that TJ, in all games previous to Jacksonville, has ‘not’ got off blocks well (or made tackles), used double moves or had more than one move in pass rushing (no sacks), and has not gotten off his blocks well enough to demand more double teams.
That being said…Tyson Jackson looked like a #1 draft choice at Jacksonville. And I am not saying he did good because he made 7 tackles. I mean TJ did “his job”. He looked great. Even on plays that he was not in.
first 7 games D-
8th game B+
Bewsaf
I Will Concede The Jacksonville Game
Which is also why I’m hoping that the on-the-side tutelage that Jackson got is a sign our defensive line coach is on the way out.
Again, I think Jackson could be a fine lineman…I just think he’s been poorly coached by Krumrie.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
i'll give you Krumrie
How he survived the worst sack season of all time and the general house cleaning blows my mind
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 12:03 PM CST up reply actions
I Think Todd Haley Likes People Who Remind Him Of Himself
And Tim Krumrie is kind of a prick…
And Krumrie’s really the crux of my entire argument. I still like Tyson Jackson and don’t think he was necessarily a bad pick. I just don’t think the Chiefs are getting what they could out of him, largely because of bad coaching.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
by UCrawford on Nov 11, 2009 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
But how big of a difference does it make to be a backup rather than a starter on the DL?
They rotate an awful lot. As it is now, Gilberry has 1 more tackle and 3 sacks compared to TJ. Look, I know TJ’s development hasn’t been where we ant it to be, and it sucks. But I’m not ready to call him a bust or a bad pick just yet. Let him play more. As he gets better, he’ll stay on the field longer.
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions
Forgot to review our 2nd round pick
Cassel and Vrabel. If you’re going to judge how our draft helped the team, you have to include trades as well.
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:39 AM CST reply actions
vrabel great guy...excellent leader.....
old and almost out of gas….he’ll do more for us with a headset. Let a young guy get in there and smash some skulls.
there are two types of leadership
the kind where you get out and say “do this” and the kind where you lead by example. Vrabel does both, from what I have seen.
Nobody Forgot To Review Them
Because they’re not relevant to the discussion. Neither of them are rookies.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
You're right, forgot the title
I was thinking it was a draft review, which it is kinda framed as.
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:43 AM CST up reply actions
We Didn't Draft Anyone In The Second Round
Hence there is no 2nd round draft pick to review.
This is a discussion about reviewing the team’s ability to rate college players.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
yeah, i just said i forgot the title, get the bug out of your....
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
Cassell...great guy, good arm...
60 something million paid….you tell me what other 2nd rounder got 60 million
Show me where we’ve already paid him 60 mil.
How about you look at the other two rookie QBs. How much guaranteed money did they make? Compare that with Cassel’s approx. 28 mil guaranteed and consider that the guy already had 11 wins under his belt and a few years experience behind the 2nd best QB in football. I think its a much safer pick than whoever was floating around in the 2nd round.
I'm officially on the 'Draft Eric Berry' train.
Haley-Crennel 2010.
by scottbwalters on Nov 11, 2009 7:48 PM CST up reply actions
dont get it twisted...
I like Cassel, but the comment was in support or theory of our 2nd round draft picks
For this to get turned around...
They’ve got to blow up the whole (D) staff.
No one ever says, "It's only a game" when their team is winning.
George Carlin-R.I.P.
Maybin, Ayers, L. English, Krueguer or whatever...
lots of names..that were drafted later. Thats the problem, it was a DE/LB heavy draft.
At this point our kicker is making the most impact...
And that is just sad.
No one ever says, "It's only a game" when their team is winning.
George Carlin-R.I.P.
Its halfway through the season...
Lets look at Richard Seymour’s first year 25 tackles 3 sacks. Vince Wilfork had 27 tackles an 2 sacks. I only bring up NE cause… well duh.
Would ya like a free NANAA!
by Jazzy Megalodon on Nov 11, 2009 11:56 AM CST reply actions
UC once again trying to compare apples and oranges to prove a ludicrous point.
Vermeillikestocry is dead on. You can’t compare a 3-4 DE to a 4-3 DE even if they are “reserve” players.
You put in this research to try to support you negativity but if you put in the same effort into researching the proper stats maybe your opinion would count for something. You can’t compare stats of a 4-3 DE to a 3-4 DE, I don’t care if they’re “reserve” players or not.
Look at players that play LDE on teams that play ONLY 3-4.
Aaron Smith/Travis Kirschke(Pit)- 17 Tackles, 2 Sacks(combined)
Marcus Spears(Dal)- 12 Tackles, 2 Sacks
Isaac Sopoaga(SF)- 17 Tackles, 1 Sack
Jacques Cesaire(SD)- 22 Tackles, 1 Sack
I’m not saying Jackson is having a stellar year but again he is a first year lineman and I’m sure we had these same posts last year about Dorsey and the peanut gallery is awful quiet it about him lately and he’s only in year 2 of the 3 years it typically takes. For me its not about stats alone especially for a rookie DE but he’s shown some promise.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Nov 11, 2009 11:58 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Besides, isn't TJ replaced by Gilberry on passing downs?
So you don’t expect many/any sacks
by VermeilLikesToCry on Nov 11, 2009 11:59 AM CST reply actions
I forgot to include that.
But yes Gilberry coming around is putting a dent into Jacksons time on the field. Guys like Spears and Cesaire and even Coleman in Cleveland are on the field a whole lot more. Jackson will come around but we have to live with these midseason grades and then the whole offseason there will be the “lets trade TJack” posts just like with Dorsey.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Nov 11, 2009 12:01 PM CST up reply actions
Of Course
You also don’t want your team expending the number three overall pick on a situational defensive end.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
For the most part I can see logic in most of your arguments...
but its almost like now you have decided Jackson’s play is unacceptable so you are going to dig in your heels. I find it a little odd that you managed to just skip the post of quantitative data of other 3-4 DE’s and pick the qualitative data to argue. Fact of the matter is for once you may be wrong and you aren’t acknowledging that its even a possibility.
Comparing 3-4 DE’s to 4-3 DE’s is apples to oranges. They are similar because they are both fruit, but they are not the same. Tyson Jackson thus far in the season is having a pretty comparable season to Richard Seymore.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 3:18 PM CST up reply actions
Richard Seymore as a rookie thatis.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 3:19 PM CST up reply actions
More importantly, as I pointed out below--
Seymour played in a 4-3 in his rookie year.
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
Yeah I read that after I posted that...
Are you sure that the Patriots were exclusively 4-3? If I remember correctly that they were flirting with the 3-4 off and on that year. And then switched to it.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 5:07 PM CST up reply actions
Actually, I Did Leave Open The Possibility
I don’t consider Jackson’s work to be close to good so far this year. He’s had one good game (against Jacksonville) and beyond that he’s had 5 tackles in seven games. That is terrible by any standard. He doesn’t exert pressure on the QB, he doesn’t occupy enough blockers to make the Chiefs’ pass rush viable (we’re second worst at it right now) and he doesn’t seem to have much of an effect on the run game (because we’re terrible at stopping it).
I’m sorry, but I think a lot of people are getting irritated with my comments simply because they’re trying to grade Jackson on potential instead of what he’s produced and there’s no real evidence that his production is more valuable than what we’ve seen in his stats or in the defense’s overall performance. And to my mind that production so far merits an F.
And as I’ve said repeatedly, I’m not claiming Jackson is a bust, I’m not saying it’s all his fault (in fact, I’ve been very clear that I think coaching is largely to blame), and I’m not giving him an F for the year. I’m just saying that his performance so far merits a failing grade.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Fair enough...
And to clarify Im not really mad at any comment you make, actually you are probably my favorite to debate with because you actually do bring something to the table with logic and well put stances, not just negativity.
But as Ive said repeatedly I still dont think its fair to compare a 3-4 DE to a 4-3 DE.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 5:34 PM CST up reply actions
Possibly
But he’s not really doing that well for a 3-4 DE either. Nor is the team doing well for any style of base defense.
And I think Jackson’s talented…I just think the Chiefs do a terrible job of setting him up for success (kind of like how they did Cassel this year).
Oh and no worries…I didn’t think you were getting mad or anything. You’re okay too.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Its pissing me off...
More and more though, that I think you may have been more right about some things than I care to admit. The one thing that I will that you may have been wrong about is Krumrie. I think this year he has actually done a decent job… Not a great job, but I can live with him for one year… Now prior to this year, I would have driven that bandwagon.
The last thing I will use to counter the Tyson Jackson thing is (though Ive said it before) is that if a 3-4 DE is doing his job the Line backers should be flying around being beasts… I think that it is absolutely possible that this could be because our linebackers aren’t very good either. It will be very interesting to see if the defense is able to build off of any thing from last week.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 6:25 PM CST up reply actions
If It's Any Consolation
Being right about some of the things I’ve been right about doesn’t really make me that happy. Not as fun to play “I told you so” when your team’s not doing well. Personally, I’d prefer to be wrong more often.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Im not gonna give you full blown
“I told you so” status yet But I really am a little confused why they didn’t run the ball more last week. It does appear that Haley acknowledges this a little. I really think Haley is a smart guy, but perhaps he is learning on the fly a little slower than would be ideal.
But I still like him, and I want to see how he learns from this year before we cut ties with him. I would much rather roll the dice and see if this guy really has the tools. I hope and I think he can be a coach that will forever be remembered as being the coach of the Chiefs, and not for his failure but because of his success. You can’t say that about some of the other guys out there, if Cowher were our coach next year, he will always be thought of as a Steeler.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 7:52 PM CST up reply actions
I Think Haley May Be An Intelligent Person
And he seemed to be a pretty good offensive coordinator, but I question his ability to be a head coach. I think he’s got a really vile temper, questionable people skills, and he tends to play favorites in a manner that’s not really based on production. Those are all terrible qualities for a head coach when it doesn’t lead to wins fairly early on.
Basically, I question whether he’s better suited to be a career coordinator than a head coach.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
i would just like to see him on their side of the ball for once...
hali is always back there.. Dorsey has been finding his way back there…i am worried he has no speed and thats critical if any decent sack totals are to come.
Having a true NT
would help both TJ and Dorsey.
by DWWMRW on Nov 11, 2009 12:02 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I think we can all agree on one thing.
T-Jax is definitely no Ryan Simms.
It's years like this that I wish I was a bear. Hibernation would make it so much easier.
by Red N Gold Beast on Nov 11, 2009 12:14 PM CST reply actions
with the "F" grades he's getting I don't think everyone can agree on that
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
I highly doubt Jackson will be another Sims
In this defense, with him being a rookie I’d give Jackson a C, being right where he’s expected to be, he’ll make rookie mistakes and get caught up in traffic but as he learns his job he’ll be fine. He’ll make a lot of you eat your words next year and the year after. Magee I doubt will ever be a starter in this D unless someone gets injured, again not a sexy pick, and doubt he’ll ever have sexy stats but he has a job to do and he’ll get that job done in a year or two as a rotational guy providing depth.
by mcclanahanman on Nov 11, 2009 12:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Maybe
the chiefs ought to fire Krummy and hire Pleasent to coach the whole Dline. If he could spark the other guys the way he has apparently sparked TJ, whats to lose?
Works For Me
That’s a change far too long in coming.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
re
per the NFL official site : Combined tackle/assist/sack,
Terrance Knighton 22 JAC
Roy Miller 21 TB
Desmond Bryant 20 OAK
Micheael Johnson 13 Cin.
Tyson Jackson 12 KC.
I’m not really alarmed by his lack of production, I’m really alarmed by our lack of sacks. Were better than last year but we are second to last in sacks in the league.
combined tackle assist/sack
for rookie defensive lineman.
by tenacious rdc on Nov 11, 2009 12:54 PM CST up reply actions
to sum up...
1) jackson is not worth #3 pick.
2) krumie needs to go
3) #3 picks are expected to make plays regardless of formation/rotation/team they play on, and jackson hasn’t performed. not that he won’t, or can’t, but he hasn’t.
there is a difference between 3-4 DE and 4-3 DE
if comparing this season’s performance without variables, then yes, jackson isn’t performing. if we’re talking about potential…production in the next few years, it is totally different.
throw out krumrie. new dline coach will help him improve, but stats will only be so great being a 3-4 DE.
i believe UC is saying for being the #3 pick, he should completely dominate despite a crappy dline coach and playing in a 3-4.
i’m curious as to how much teams run at jackson and his side…..
"We're not losers, we just can't win!"
I Won't Say He Should Dominate
I don’t think that’s a reasonable expectation at this point. But I do think he should be a lot better than he is.
Which I suspect is more about coaching than anything else, but I’m still not going to give Jackson credit for things he hasn’t accomplished.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
Hey but then your not a part of the Kool Aid gang...
and that means your not a CHIEF FAN PAL! You dont have the “hope” it takes to make it in here…Lol. If you look at the apple and can see it has a bad spot, .but oh wait, this is not red apple this is a green apple….so what, 3rd overall is not a gamble, question mark, or a possiblility. He has to be the man. At the end of the day, NT, DE, LB, 3-4, 4-3, nickel, dime, cover, rush….either way you have to tackle, tackle, tackle, cause havoc, create confusion, and or otherwise make a difference. Follow Tamba Hali, atleast he’s tryin
Hey guys, if you're going to look at Richard Seymour as an example of what Tyson Jackson should be, can you do some research first?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Patriots_strategy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Seymour
The Patriots didn’t switch to the 3-4 until 2003—and Seymour had an amazing amount of talent around him. Can we say the same for Jackson?
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
Thanks JUSTIN BOPP, I'm Capable Of Reading Other Peoples' Comments Without You Pointing Them Out :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
Fire Haley now.
..but you keep saying the same silly things. :)
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
Oh man...
I spent like 2 hours pouring over that New England Patriots strategy wiki page one night lol. I got linked there from a discussion on different blocking philosophies. It is crazy to see how football has become such a thinking man’s game. It is so technical, so involved, so complicated. For anyone to be successful in this league, it is a testament to their obvious hard work and intelligence. Just a few thoughts that I had. I really have a lot more respect for coaching staffs (Bellichick in particular) after reading some of that.
I'm officially on the 'Draft Eric Berry' train.
Haley-Crennel 2010.
by scottbwalters on Nov 11, 2009 7:57 PM CST up reply actions
The other side of the issue is
to look at who was in our scouting dept. I have read in a few other posts that Pioli had to use the last regimes scouting reports to make his selections. Judging by our most recent draft history, I would say that these guys were not very good talent evaluators. I have heard that Pioli cleaned house in this area, so lets hope he got some guys in there that know what they are looking for.
I am not saying TJ is bust either. I am merely pointing out that our recent draft history (especially in regards to dlinemen) has not been very good.
the counter-argument to that
is that, as we’ve already seen this season, Pioli has been out scouting games each week himself. surely those scouts would have input, but most believe that pioli himself most likely had scouted most of these guys, and definitely did at the combine or before the draft….
i think it is a matter of drafting project guys, not really expecting them to have to contribute this year, while pioli/haley evaluated what was already on the roster, only to be overwhelmed by the lack of talent on the chiefs. now their picks are having to play instead of getting a year or two to learn and grow behind vets
"We're not losers, we just can't win!"
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 11, 2009 2:15 PM CST up reply actions
jackson doesn have the stats
that is true. i haven’t gotten to see enough games to actually watch him and see how he plays.
it isn’t about spots on an apple or people drinking koolaid.
nobody believes that pioli drafts gold with each pick. people are, however, skeptical to judge a player based on half a season, when the player has a crappy coach, plays in a 3-4, and is a rookie. everybody remembers ryan sims and the numerous other deadweights who’ve played on our dline.
i think a big problem is nobody trusts whoever the coach/gm of the chiefs is, because gunther was appointed head coach once, vermiel never wanted a defense, herm (enough said), and carl let donnie edwards go to SD, drafted larry over troy, let gannon walk for grbac, let tony richardson go, and couldn’t draft a wr to save his life….letting wiegmann go, kawika mitchell, etc etc.
we can thank carl for colquitt, bowe, carr/flowers, hali, alberts, charles, and not much else..
in a year or two, i’ll look back at jackson. i’d love immediate results, and do believe first day picks should produce immediately, but i think pioli went for more project guys realizing that we’re a few years off…
"We're not losers, we just can't win!"
wow, its been awhile since...
C. Okoye, B. Word, Montana, M. Allen, A. Rison, J. Morton, E. Kinninson, P. Holmes, T. Green, or the D. Carter, J. Hasty, Woods, T. Vanouver, DDT, N. Smith, C. Mcglocklin, D. Edwards, or W. Roaf, W. Shields, T. Gonzalez, T. Richardson ……..so yeah its hard not to be disappointed. Enough is enough already. We have never been this bad since i can remember.
Somebody’s being a negative Nancy today :P
I'm officially on the 'Draft Eric Berry' train.
Haley-Crennel 2010.
by scottbwalters on Nov 11, 2009 7:59 PM CST up reply actions
disagree with most of the comments on here
Jackson earns at least a C from me at this point.. he’s doing his job, and getting better. That’s what you should expect from a rookie 3-4 DE.
Magee might be a D, but only because we haven’t seen him earn much playing time yet.
I would have liked for one of these 2 picks to be spent on OL instead, but I dont’ think Pioli/Haley realized that Dorsey would work out as well as he has. IF they knew that, they probably would have gone another direction with one of the two picks
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
won't argue with you there
i truly believe that pioli thought both jackson and mcgee would get some time to learn behind other players, and then soon found out that the other players were worse. some of our rookies came in and were already better than our starters. nobody truly knew how crappy this team was, not even haley/pioli
"We're not losers, we just can't win!"
by chief Stevie_k on Nov 11, 2009 2:20 PM CST up reply actions
I think that's true about some other positions (WR, OL, CB)
thus the Lawrence, Brown, Washington picks… Pioli drafted them as depth/ future projects, hoping that he had decent starters in place… when the starters haven’t performed so well… well, now you wish there was a more immediate impact from those guys.
But, at the DE position, I think they got MORE than they expected out of Dorsey, which is keeping Magee on the bench.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
I disagree with that. I think they knew exactly how crappy our team was.
I think the only people doing the not-knowing here are the fans. Overestimating the current talent, overestimating quality of previous draft picks, underestimating the damage done by Edwards/Peterson, underestimating the length of time to fix a team like this, and overestimating the number of draft picks that usually “make it.”
I think Haley/Pioli know exactly the lack of talent they’re dealing with; it’s the fans that expected an immediate turn-around. (and fans that don’t understand the basics of the 3-4 — you guys should learn before shootin’ off at the mouth about what TJack should or shouldn’t be right now.)
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
by Justin Bopp on Nov 11, 2009 2:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
probably true
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
OMG Dorsey working out as well as he has?
Give me a break…..What has he done to deserve to be a top 5 pick? HE HAS TERRIBLE STATS ON A 30TH RANKED D…… what am I missing?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 2:32 PM CST reply actions
not going to argue
Dorsey has been playing well, as has Jackson
Both are getting better
both are doing their jobs
it’s not about stats for a 3-4 DE in their first 2 yrs
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
ok??
Its not about stats….check…..
But they are 25th against the run and something like 31st against the pass,,,,,,,
The D is terrible….how then do you determin if they are doing bad?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 2:39 PM CST up reply actions
I guess my point is what makes Dorsey so good?
Is it his stats? (No he’s 3-4 end yadda yadda…his stats suck…yadda yadda)
It it because the D is good? ( NO because the D is terrible, ranked 30th in the league)
Is it because he make the LB’s so good? (No, Tamba is having a decent year, but by no means is he tearing it up)
What are you basing his “great play” on because as ive pointed out….his stats arent good, the D isn’t any good, and his LB’s arent putting up great numbers…..can someone please explain how Dorsey has shown he should have been a top 5 pick? Anyone?
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 2:51 PM CST up reply actions
I see your points, and I know I can't convince you otherwise
it’s just my eye that indicates they are generally doing their job and getting better.
the defense is a little better, and would be a LOT better if they could cut out the 4 big plays in each game.
The DEs are getting a decent push on the edge, and holding their own in the run game. The LB should be putting up the bigger numbers, but the 3-4 DL is there to tie up blockers and eat up space.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
That fair...for now
I guess I’ll just have to accept that for the next couple of years….but in the mean time they are the two highest paid Chiefs (or maybe 2 of the 3 highest paid) and are both top 5 picks.
A lot is expected of them, and at some point a 30th ranked D (and 25th ranked run D) is going to be unacceptable to even the kool-aid drinkers around here.
They make way to much money to not be held accountable.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 3:08 PM CST up reply actions
agreed...
the overall defensive improvement is what I DO expect from those draft picks.
IF the defense doesn’t get better… then I’ll concede that they are partially to blame.
I think the biggest problem on the defense is clearly the Safeties… BOTH of em. Fix that, and you’ll see the team defense numbers rise.
Add a better pass rush from the other LB to help Hali out… and then you’re talking
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Let's remember two very important things:
1. The best teams draft 70% of their talent in starter positions.
2. Of those teams, they are getting 1-2 starters per year.
3. Of those starters, they take 2-3 years to prove themselves.
We’re looking at a massive rebuilding project and it takes time.
See Data Differently.
beyondtheboxscore.com | Twitter: @ justinbopp
As it's been agrued many times....in this day of free agents, many many many teams are able to turn it around in 1 or 2 years.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
The Chiefs have spent the least amount on their team and have the least amount of wins...
Let’s spend some money this off season….please!
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
I dunno...the Dolphins, Ravens, and Falcons seem to still be good teams
we’ll see.
Don't Fuccop Succop
by chicks_love_chiefs on Nov 11, 2009 3:10 PM CST up reply actions
of those 3 teams...
the team with the most free agent additions is the Dolphins and they have a losing record. Good teams take Free Agents to compliment a core of good players. The core of the Falcons are all drafted by the Falcons, same goes with the Ravens.
This space for rent.
by averagegatsby on Nov 11, 2009 3:23 PM CST up reply actions
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