Chiefs 3-4 Front 7 Grade Re-evaluation: Bye Week
From the FanPosts -Joel
If you had to describe our defense thus far, unfortunately it's not good. However, with the abundance of Mock Drafts popping up and people trying to look past this year already, I thought I'd reevaluate and update my post on the defensive grades I'd give the Chiefs. I'm going to try to keep the grades in perspective. Yes, we're struggling, but there are a few bright spots here and there I'll comment on while grading them.
In the interest of not assigning failing grades to everyone by comparing them to the Elvis Dumervil and Jared Allens of the world, these will be relative to the preseason grades I had given in the previous post.
Nose Tackle:
Ron Edwards - Edwards took over the position and has started 5 of the 7 games thus far, totaling 11 tackles (10 solo), no sacks, fumbles forced, or PBU's. He's the heart of a 25th ranked rushing defense, and the FO was secure enough with him to let Tank Tyler go to the Panthers. There have been a small handful of times where he's got some pressure up the gut of the defense, but more often than not, he's getting stuffed. I've watched many times as both offensive guards have gotten to our linebackers on rushing plays. His job is to occupy a couple of blockers, and he's not getting that done on a consistent basis. When he does, he gets pancaked too often. However, he has picked up both men and Dorsey has cut through his 1-on-1. If he can do that more often, it'll make a huge difference. Grade: D
Defensive End:
Glenn Dorsey - 25 tackles (17 solo) and a PBU thus far this season. By far the best guy we've got as a down lineman. Gets penetration several times a game, and has done fairly well to turn RB's back into the pile behind the line of scrimmage. Also tracking back to catch players when the LB's miss, covering our defense's proverbial butt on several occasions. Not consistent enough picking up the extra man on safety blitzes, our rushers are getting a hand put on them, slowing them down. Has helped Tamba make this transition easier. I really think he's grasped the position, now just needs to refine the techniques. Grade: B
Tyson Jackson - 5 tackles (3 solo) and a PBU aren't numbers that are lighting the world on fire. He really has found himself "lost in the wash" of rushing plays in his direction. He's not necessarily getting steamrolled, but he's also not really getting after his man. Typically has the tackle or guard, but rarely both, which tends to stymie Vrabel's advancement. Last week was better from him on all fronts. Hopefully that improvment continues. Grade: C-
Wallace Gilberry - 12 tackles (11 solo) and 2 sacks made for a surprise...especially for the DE position. He has benefitted from planned stunts where Tamba rolls inside and he swaps the outside...a testament to some speed? Usually in on 3rd and longs with Dorsey in a 2 down lineman set. Not really much for the typical DE responsibilities, but a nice wrench for Clancy to throw into the equation. Grade B-
Linebackers:
Mike Vrabel - 28 tackles (25 solo), 1 sack, 1 forced fumble, and 3 PBU's. Mike has done very, very well at keeping the RB inside of him on rushes his direction. He's made several tackles through his blocker, and really has played the run well. Pass defense has been less than stellar, and he's usually responsible for the short flat...something that most teams have run to Tamba's side this year. Not a sack machine, but not expected to be with how often he drops back into coverage. Often mentoring Jackson as to the gaps he needs to hit on the field, after the play. Oh yeah, and he's got a TD catch. So far, so good. Grade: B+
DeMorrio Williams - 44 tackles (37 solo), 2 PBU's. DeMorrio took DJ's spot midway through the pre-season and surprisingly hasn't given it back. Pass coverage has been okay, especially as of late with the TE corps we've faced. Not hitting the hole, or choosing the right angle as well as I'd like. Tends to get caught by free-roaming guards, but has been overpowered several times by a fullback. Does not tackle well enough at the point of attack, getting most tackles well beyond the line of scrimmage. Not quite handling the rush as well as I'd like, but not entirely his fault with that side of the line in front of him. Grade: C
Corey Mays - 36 tackles (25 solo), 1 PBU. Not quite living up to the preseason hype he created. Does hit the hole well, and strong. However, when he gets to the hole a little late, tries to arm tackle and gets shed often. Somewhat of a liability in pass coverage. Postered LT on the goal line last week with an awesome stop. He seems to be spectacular or mediocre without much in between. Grade: C
Derrick Johnson - 10 tackles (10 solo), 1 INT, 1 sack, 1 PBU. Fell out of favor early, but starting to see a little more playing time on passing downs. Ineffective on special teams thus far. Huge pick against the Ravens and a nice sack against Oakland. Seems to make plays when he's on the field, but can't crack the starting lineup. Haven't seen much at all in his ability to stop the run, which might be keeping him off the field. Grade: C
Jovan Belcher - 16 tackles (15 solo). "He's a Cinderella boy. Tears in his eyes..." Not staggering stats, but seeing more and more time on the field as of late. Seems to be running the defense in Mays' absence. Plays smart football, takes away passing lanes well. Still needs some work on getting to the hole quicker, but tends to pick the right angle most of the time. Has a chance to be a serious contributor if he can get to the RB quicker with some power. Grade: C
Tamba Hali - 23 tackles (16 solo), 3 sacks, 2 forced fumbles, 1 PBU, 1 safety. I know I said it before, but I'll say it again: I was wrong about Tamba. Little to no delay in the transition to OLB. Handling pass rush just as well or better than last year, but still not getting by the LT fast enough. Coverage is improving (see: SD's 2nd TD where Tamba took away Gates), but not being asked to do it as much. Not sealing the edge well enough on running plays. Quicker RB's have turned the corner on him too readily. Not reading screens well enough on his side. Has shown some good quickness getting to the other side of the line. He and Dorsey have teamed well together and look like they're blossoming into a positive for this season. Grade: B
We've got holes. Edwards isn't getting it done consistently enough, and therefore, neither are our linebackers. We don't get enough pressure, and our blitzes are too slow. We seem to do pretty well against the run, then give up a 50 yard play to ruin all the work...need to concentrate more on consistently filling the holes and keeping the gap assignments. The positives are there with this front 7. We can see the spots that we're doing okay in, and as the season goes along, it's got to get better (schedule alone will help that). I hope when I revisit this at the end of the year that Jackson's become more consistent, DJ gets some more opportunities, Tamba's got a bunch more sacks, Dorsey's getting through on a regular basis, and Edwards holds his own better.
Thoughts? Comments?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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NT is the glaring weakness....
Mt. Cody might be where we look at the draft. I know, that would make 3 top 5 pick spent on DLs but a NT would enhance the D a lot
Predictions for 2009:
LJ runs for 1800 yards
Bowe in the pro bowl
Chiefs D finishes in the top 10 in points allowed
Chiefs 10-6
by bonesjackson on Oct 30, 2009 5:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yep, Terrence Cody will be our first pick.
by Chief-Eli on Oct 30, 2009 8:23 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 0 recs
I dont know about that...
I can’t take another 1st round DL…
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by woodman212 on Oct 30, 2009 11:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
most sites are projecting Cody
to be available for us in the early second to take.
by ChiefsfanJon on Oct 31, 2009 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's where I've been seeing him too...
Although I don’t know that he’ll fall out of the first round even with his weight/taking plays off issues. I see him at the bottom third of the first round. Without having the ole draft value chart…. would our first second round pick and a fifth move us back into the end of round 1 to possibly take cody?
by callmesir on Oct 31, 2009 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
probably a little more
depends on the team wanting him.
Maybe if we can pry Wilfork loose we don’t need to trade in the draft.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 31, 2009 11:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
based on 5th pick Example
we would need to trade 2(upper) and 3
to get to pick 23 or so.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 31, 2009 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Nice resource, Steve.
It’ll help me make more sense of trade talks pre-draft. Wondered what the calculus was.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 1, 2009 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I duno about that....
With Hampton getting older and such I would expect a team like that to take him….or Miami, Dallas or another of the new 3-4 teams that also badly need a NT
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by woodman212 on Nov 1, 2009 12:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ive seen Cody go to denver around pick 16 in most drafts
A man who says he can, and a man who says he can't are both right. Which one are you?
by Bashman on Nov 5, 2009 10:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
These guys
need to create more TO’s…Esecially the LB’s. The front needs more penetration and TFL and that in turn frees our LB to do more damage. Probably not gonna happen this year….hopefully we can get it done in the offseason.
"Its going to be a challenge, its going to feel like forever, and there will be difficulties. But we will emerge on the other side of it stronger than we were when we entered." ~ Sudden
by Matt_Grbac on Oct 30, 2009 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
I’d love to see you break down the secondary too…hint, hint
by The Other Patrick Allen on Oct 30, 2009 5:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks.
I’d have to really sit down and watch the games again, though. I’m a “trenches” guy, so I watch that so much more closely.
What I have noticed: tackling isn’t good, safeties aren’t covering very well, and Carr lets guys turn too quickly. Just offhand:
Flowers: B
Carr: C
McGraw: C- (excluding ST’s…he’d go up a full grade with ST’s)
Page: C
Brown: C-
Leggett: D
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 5:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Richardson
F-
In wondrous beauty, once again, shall the golden tables stand mid the grass, which the gods had owned in the days of old.
by Chiefs_Ragnarok on Oct 30, 2009 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen!
I hate the no name Richardson so far
by tomahawk44 on Oct 30, 2009 9:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Richardson>Jared Page...
I know they play dif posistions, Page sucks period. He is an F—
OHANA!
by darwithabar on Nov 1, 2009 1:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Washinton D-
A man who says he can, and a man who says he can't are both right. Which one are you?
by Bashman on Nov 5, 2009 10:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
the D
Definitely needs a big time NT which would then make dorsey and jackson better and in turn make the lbs better. As for the lbs I’m willing to give belcher time to develop as he looks like a player. I don’t love mays as a starter but a good backup. That said they need another ILB. Tamba is fine. Vrabel might have a year left so time to get his heir apparent.
by golfbard on Oct 30, 2009 5:45 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Studebaker?
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see a place for him on the team, longer-term.
If not as a starter, then a stout part of the LB depth chart. Kinda like the way he plays.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In comparison to our team?
Or the rest of the league..?
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
by ArrowSpread on Nov 1, 2009 5:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like Mays
He plays with passion, and looks great on some plays then……………gets lost in the fold on other plays. I hope he improve’s over the rest of the year, and get the starting nod next year. That alone makes next years draft alittle easier.
by CPT.Caveman on Oct 31, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's has poor tackling form...
He’s been in the league long enough to know how to tackle…. I doubt mays is ever going to be much more than he is. ..
by callmesir on Oct 31, 2009 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A very good FA pickup and possible Backup ILB
youngster too, ST player
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 31, 2009 11:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
He can contribute in those ways for sure…but shouldnt be a starter probably.
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by woodman212 on Nov 1, 2009 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd like to see how the LBs grade out behind a more consistent d-line.
D-Line performed best this year in a hybrid 4-3 under look, imo. But it buggered the back 7 and exposed the 3-4 LBs I think we HAVE as poor 4-3 LBs.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 1, 2009 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We need to stop Safety blitzes, CB blitzes and just make the O earn their pts the hard way
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 5:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I wish we'd see Mays and Belcher blitzed more often.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm afraid that blitz is about the optimal thing to do when the Ss can't cover down the field.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But on further review, Steve, ...
… more of a prevent coverage might keep teams from scoring long TDs, and defending the short field does mitigate against some of the speed issues in that unit.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And that my friends is the idea behind
the cover two…. a defense that can be employed to cover up athletic defeciencies on your ball club…. thus the reason herm used it.
by callmesir on Oct 31, 2009 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
So Tampa spent their money up front?
and covered up the secondary.
Touche :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 1, 2009 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This year???
Seems they didn’t spend any money on anything worthwhile… in years past…. yes they had a very very good d line and I don’t know that I could name a DB not name rhonde barber from those good tampa two defenses….
I agree that a good pass rush covers up alot of things, but the cover two can make a smart DB with marginal athleticism look much better than he is, the idea is you kinda let them move the ball between the 20’s then in the red zone speed doesn’t matter as much. Over a 10 yard area there’s not much difference between 4.4 and 4.8 speed…. maybe not even a step….
by callmesir on Nov 1, 2009 3:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking as much as I wrote that, callmesir.
DBs get to play with their eyes forward most or even all of the play, as the pressure up front forces the ball out more quickly. Thus the guys like Flowers can make plays on the BALL, make certain tackles for minimal gain on the short stuff (perfect offensive execution still marches the ball thru short passes, but at cost of beatin’ hell outta the WRs), and fill better against the run.
I think Dorsey was brought in to be the Warren Sapp for KC’s version of Tampa 2. But KC’s d-line was never as dominant as Tampa’s was during the Dungy-Chuckie heyday. As for the Dorsey-Sapp connection, it’s interesting that, much as he hated it, Sapp still dominated as NT in the 3-4, when forced to play it.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 1, 2009 11:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
THIS year, they started building a 3-4 front 3.
I think they were surprised and dismayed at Tyler not becoming the NT they wanted. Not sure that trimming-down best served that purpose. Tyler has a frame and underlying power that he could carry some extra weight around his midsection and be the pivot around which the D could revolve.
Kinda scratching my head about how they seemed to want him to play NT, but coached him up like they wanted a 4-3 penetrator. All the tackles he earned by playing that style didn’t affect his ability to stick with the team.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 1, 2009 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
and this
the idea is you kinda let them move the ball between the 20’s
is why I hate the Tampa 2 and any other “prevent defense”. What a stupid idea to EVER purposely LET your opponent move the ball.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
by kabrink on Nov 1, 2009 8:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Denver won a SB that way.
They sucked between the 20s, and then they could blitz you in the red zone and force the FG. Then they’d turn right around and run Terrell Davis a dozen times for a leisurely TD.
But I agree that if your offense isn’t GREAT, you NEED those stops for no-score, and stiffening inside the 20 is no way to go about it.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 2, 2009 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice KP.
I’d add that I’ve seen Gilberry a number of times in for Jackson, too, and he generally looks quicker and more active. Nice shot of him leaping for the loose ball. Notice that’s Tank, there on the deck?
I think you’re basing your observations on the most recent game. I mean … on the most recent game? Gilberry saw a fair amount of minutes, I think, but I couldn’t say for sure how many times he was lined up in place of TJ.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 5:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I did see him in for Jackson a couple of times...
…but I believe both of his sacks have come from Tamba’s stunt.
He’s great at getting penetration, but a little bit of a liability when the o-lineman is moving AT him (read: running plays).
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Jackson's bigger and plays bigger in those situations.
But I’ve been pleasantly surprised by Gilberry. Of all the names like TANK TYLER and TURK MCBRIDE, wally gilberry was a longshot!
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 7:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
That's my, Kalo!
Great analysis. REC’D.
Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Oct 30, 2009 5:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, DTR!
I aim to please.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
its all in the D....
Showing blitz and pulling them off are two different things. If they were 20-35 lbs heavier up front, they might have a chance to actually get penetration to the back field. Scheming & technique should get better but, it really depends on if the player understands the system he’s in or what the scheme ask him to do. If there is a blown coverage(huge gaping area of field not defended), someone-somewhere is not where there suppose to be. This is called a “mental breakdown”.
by imur#1fan on Oct 30, 2009 5:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
It's a byproduct of the system up front.
You’ll watch Dorsey trying to help cover the C and G on his side more and more as the game goes along. His 1-on-1 penetration happens far more often in the earlier parts of the game. A man-eating NT (Wilfork, anyone?) allows him to either be on the G or hold up the G and T and free up Tamba.
NT is weak right now. I’m convinced Dorsey, Tamba, and Vrabel have it, and Jackson’s getting there. Fill the middle and that changes a lot.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
What is it Buck O' says? Well-played, sir.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 7:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And you're pretty much sayin' what imur#1fan is sayin'.
Another 25 or 30 lbs or just a little bit better play from the 320 pounder in the middle. Kind of amounts to the same thing, although there’s a hint of LB in the extra mass of which imur#1fan speaks.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 2:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
But is Ron Edwards (315 lbs) 10+ pounds heavier as valuable as Vince Wilfork (325 lbs) now? Hardly.
Can Krumrie teach those skills that Edwards is lacking? That’s not for me to judge. I can, however, look at what he’s taught our guys thus far and waver on the “no” side of the argument.
IMO, Wilfork (or equivalent player) at the NT position makes this defense function better, and makes it easier to pick out the weak spots. Hard to really say that we need better ILB’s when their NT isn’t giving them the holes they need. Sure, great players make that happen, but I think we can all agree Mays, Williams, Belcher, and DJ are far from “great” players in this scheme.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 31, 2009 2:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't so much sayin' Edwards oughta get bigger.
Just play “bigger” as in “better” is what I meant. I found it interesting that imur#1fan put it in terms of 20 or 30 pounds, though, because that’s kind of how I looked at the front four this year, compared to last year. 3 stouts and 1 ‘tweener (Hali) this year are bigger (even slimmed down) than the 2 stouts and two ’tweeners KC’s been runnin’ with. By 20 or 30 pounds, if I recall my arithmetic from a month or 3 ago.
I don’t think the current cast of LBs is “far from great” for this scheme. What I think happened, though, was the LB corps is not far from futile for the 4-3 under scheme, and, as you point out, the Chiefs aren’t yet set at NT, even though their LBs pretty much oblige them to go 3-4. They weren’t REAL aggressive at LB in the offseason, but they got significantly bigger. I THINK that explains the promotion and retention of Edwards and the sudden exit of Tyler, even though Edwards isn’t quite what we would have him be.
But yeah, I can see KC going bigger yet at LB. In the meantime, the most hay is to be made at NT and DB.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 3:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love these...
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
by woodman212 on Oct 30, 2009 6:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Kalo
Is there anything unique in the type of Blocking scheme that is giving us more trouble than another? Say ZB vs Man?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 6:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily.
I’ve noticed that we tend to run pretty much the same way no matter who we’re playing. Tamba/Gilberry pull their inside stunt (and Vrabel/Gilberry have too), but most of the time we just try to force the LB gaps (read: DeMorrio not picking the right hole) and give up yards.
We aren’t quick enough on pulling guards, though. Rather than Dorsey/Jackson shooting between the tackle and center, we tend to get washed out. If the DE can attack that better, it changes the entire play.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Learning curve
What would you grade the D-line coach Krumrie?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 6:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't.
I’ve watched him not get the potential out of lots of draft picks, so I have a little bit of a bias. Edwards/Tank not transitioning well thus far tells me that NT isn’t his specialty. It’s also hard to say exactly how much he’s contributed to Tamba’s transition, which thus far is the most successful. You could say that Dorsey has picked it up well, but with the other pieces not coming together (for several years), you have to wonder how much of that is Dorsey’s natural ability vs. Krumrie’s coaching.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 30, 2009 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gibbs is coaching the LB's
Was possible DC until Pendergast was promoted instead?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Follow up sorry for being a nuisance
The LB corp has as a group perforned well for overall perceived skill?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 6:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a nuisance at all.
LB Corps has transitioned well. As much fuss has been made (by me included) about DJ not getting playing time, I believe that’s by far the spot that we have the most depth.
Belcher has been nothing short of a pleasant surprise, and Mays/Williams have seem to buy into the system. We get something going up front, and we may have a better LB corps that we thought.
Some of that has to be coaching. I’ll give props there.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 31, 2009 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Edwards made some nice plays in the Redskins game
Courtesy of ChiefsPlanet:
http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/Gif%27d%20up%20redskins/GIF2.gif
http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/Gif%27d%20up%20redskins/GIF6.gif
Bonus Dorsey:
http://uranus.ckt.net/%7Egochiefs/Gif%27d%20up%20redskins/GIF16.gif
by bh13 on Oct 30, 2009 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe that's why I got the impression Gilberry was more active at DE.
We aren’t quick enough on pulling guards, though. Rather than Dorsey/Jackson shooting between the tackle and center, we tend to get washed out. If the DE can attack that better, it changes the entire play.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 1, 2009 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem right now is still our D-line
I think, other than our safties, the rest of our secondary is alright. The biggest problem is there’s still no pass rush whatsoever. This was made very evident by one play in particular last week against the Chargers where Flowers was matched up against Floyd, I think, towards the goal line. I watched Flowers the entire play and he played insanely tight coverage but Rivers was given at least 10 seconds in the pocket and the receiver eventually broke off and got open. You can never expect any corner to cover for as long as ours do.
by jonnyu on Oct 30, 2009 6:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Leads back to Nose
if he can eat up two blockers the circle of disturbance, like a pond, expands out and lets the OLB get the plays.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 6:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I liked Big Baby out of Alabama
but he seems to be here and not and I would like a more consistent presence at NT
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Our corners are regularly burned, imo.
They’re better on the short field, and I think the TD to which you refer was Flowers on Jackson. Pitch and Catch. Even in a restricted space, there was a lot of room to get the ball to Jackson where Flowers had zero chance of making any kind of play, other than try for the pass interference penalty.
I think Carr has the tools, but doesn’t always have the technique. Same goes for Leggett. Washington is a project. Flowers is better than Mark McMillian was, but he’s not a great enough athlete to pull off a Darrell Green act. Small and not great speed spells target, and the only reason he isn’t targeted more is because his open guy isn’t always the first or easiest open guy to hit.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You better DUCK, Mills!!!
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No ducking needed.
Great secondaries typically have great d-lines in front of them. As of this moment, we have neither. I’m anxious to see what Flowers/Carr would do with a crushed pocket every play.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 31, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would help.
And I really think Flowers is a great PLAYER. His ability to read-and-jump routes and ball skills would recommend him for a man-off scheme with good pressure from the front. He’s amazingly good, considering the size and speed he gives up to numerous wideouts. This was especially apparent against Vincent Jackson a week ago, even with help over the top from McGraw. You could see the grins on Jackson’s ‘n’ Rivers’s faces after the first (incomplete) pass attempt that Jackson would have his way with that pair.
As I’ve said before, I see him as an asset, but more as a nickel back, and more as a safety lurking in the short middle of the field, with bigger players in press coverage in front of him. I think Clancy tried some inverted coverage stuff, maybe with this same thought, but it didn’t look like they had it ironed-out, and he took some flack for it from fans. But as a full-time safety/man-off-nickel-back, with his eyes on the o-backfield the whole play, he’s truly gifted at reading the run and knifing in for the textbook tackle. Such a role would make him a terror for QBs.
For years, now, KC has had to back off against the extra wide sets. I say “had to” because Cunningham ALWAYS gave the free release against 3 WRs, and whenever Clancy’s tried it, his corners have been embarrassed. Of course, there’s always a lot more “show press” than actual PRESS (punch, or otherwise knock the receiver off his intended route), even when the corners are in tight.
All imo.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 2:37 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Mills...
…you and I need to collaborate on this stuff in the future. How many posts have you and I made that went even further in the comments?
Rec’d, and thanks for the analysis. I appreciate it more than you realize.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 31, 2009 2:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cool, Kalo. It'd be an honor.
I’ve been digging the discussion since the first 3-4 Positional not long after I came to AP as an nfl.com refugee, via AAddict by word of mouth. Just lookin’ for good football talk from people who care about the game. What I like is how AP brings many watchers of the game together. The stuff that’s the most fun for me to read is when other people relate what THEY see on the field (and NOT so much what they think about what somebody else thinks about a perceived slight or peccadillo). After a while, you get to trusting the eyes of certain folks, like you ‘n’ stagdsp, in particular, kind of like finding the book or movie critic who matches your tastes.
I view the Posts as mainly a way to raise talking points, although it can be fun to put together something that has its own merits. Bein’ lazy, it’s easier to cast bread on the water and then cast a net for the wisdom borne on the tide of a multitude of fellow APers. The real fun and most of the learning is in the back-and-forth of the comments. The front page and the newsgathering are the heart of AP, but the discussions we have are its soul.
I especially love when someone cries bullshit, the sense of the senate sustains the cry, and the guy that got his facts wrong calmly changes his mind, and we all move on.
No shame in being wrong, as long as you’re honest and rational and willing to learn. Very refreshing. It’s prob’ly why I’m addicted to AP.
Sop what kind of collaboration do you have in mind? I don’t doubt but that it’d be fun. You’re easy to get along with.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 3:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
On that cart-versus-horse thing...
I think the great secondary frees up LBs from having to stay in the zone as often, too. So the front 7 is more capable of getting pressure, which helps the secondary, etc.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 1, 2009 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey
Wasn’t Flowers more of a cover 2 guy when drafted? Thats what i’ve been saying all along, this team has been drafting for a 4-3 scheme and cover 2 or zone CB’s over the last few year’s. Flowers is not fast enough to stay with a quick big wideouts they have today in the NFL. I’m not saying Flowers is a bust, he can stay with those guys long enough if we had a pass rush, but we dont. To bad this isn’t Madden Football ………hell i could have this team rockin in 1 year . With the first 5 or 6 picks in a row. lol
by CPT.Caveman on Oct 31, 2009 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still against the Tank Tyler trade
Tank seemed to be doing good at NT and definitely had the measurements. I just don’t see us replacing what we had in Tank with a fifth rounder.
Check out my blog on software development:
http://www.turnleafdesign.com/
by Scaryclouds on Oct 30, 2009 7:33 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Im having a hard time with it too.
We always say it takes a few years to develop Dlinemen so why did we get rid of him so early? I thought he had alot of promise. A fifth rounder is not worth it in my mind. Does anyone know how he is doing in Carolina?
Trying to see the big picture.
by supremeKC on Oct 30, 2009 7:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
1 assisted tackle in 1st game vs Buffalo backing up Damione Lewis in a 4-3 D
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
hmm...
thanks steve. I guess we will have to wait a few games to see how he fairs in the new system, and If he will be a starter. I had high hopes for the guy, I mean come on what a perfect name for the strongest guy at the combine!
Trying to see the big picture.
by supremeKC on Oct 30, 2009 8:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought Tyler was showing some real skills.
And some explosiveness. But it didn’t look like a 3-4 with him in there. I think they needed him to split the doubleteam and finish plays on his own less often and to eat up blockers more often. The LBs are better equipped to finish, but maybe Tyler was enabling himself more, and his teammates less, and the LBs the Chiefs have weren’t picked and ain’t built to play 4-3 style.
I kind of expected that with Tyler and Dorsey that they’d cheat to the strong side a mite and we’d see hybrid all season, but that hybrid calls for faster LBs and maybe a bigger DE than Hali.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 30, 2009 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest
I think the straight up 3-4 we’re running will work. Our strengths are definitely Dorsey, Tamba, and Vrabel. A rock in the middle of this thing and potentially upgrading ILB’s might do the front 7 just fine. It’ll never happen, but fingers crossed our FA pickups this year are Dansby and Wilfork. That lineup gets me excited.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Nov 2, 2009 8:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think LBs will be easy to find at that point, my friend.
This is one of the keys to “discovering” diamonds in the rough @ LB, of which I think there are MANY in the talent pool.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 3, 2009 6:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
diamonds in the rough
Corey Mays, Jovan Belcher, DJ, Demorrio Williams…
Put a great NT in front of them, and a great safety behind them…
you might be surprised at how good the defense looks
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Nov 3, 2009 6:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And a couple of speedy CB that can play man
not necessarily great CB’s.
Strength in the middle and push the plays to the sidelines
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 3, 2009 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I like that.
A more dominating NT might mean instant upgrades @ LB and CB.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Nov 3, 2009 8:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Damn it's your plan
You sneaky Bas**** :)
The Inverted secondary. Please elaborate again on how Safeties can cause CB’s to be a comodity like LB’s :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Nov 3, 2009 8:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm all for major OL renovations
but I don’t think we ought to take Okung with our likely very early pick. I agree with folks thoughts that we can do quite well with the 2nd rounders.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
by kabrink on Oct 30, 2009 8:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I totally agree.
Even though our line makes it hard to do anything on Offence, I have fallen in love with Berry. If he is up to the hype grab the guy. From what I hear Okung is not even close to a Jake Long top 5 pick, so I hope we can grab someone in the 2nd who is just as good. Its so funny how much draft talk there is this early during a one win season.
Trying to see the big picture.
by supremeKC on Oct 30, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we go after MT. Cody
we should trade down and get more picks..
by Kcbiggyblue on Oct 30, 2009 8:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
A lot of Mt Cody talk
What do people think about his weight? Any concerns here? What about his suddenly getting rich and being able to eat as much as possible like Dorsey did? Can we control and prevent this?
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
by kabrink on Oct 30, 2009 9:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Well he put his hands up and at 6'8 blocked a Field goal (or two)
his own coach won’t play him full time if he can’t keep his weight down.
Watched him some against Tennessee and was not dominate on plays from scrimmage, like Suh has at times, could be wrong but to grab him in top-5 ain’t happening. Now 2nd round maybe, but Boo Robinson and others can probably equals his soon to be NFL production long term.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 30, 2009 9:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
We only need a few more RECs for this
Kalo’s fantastic work deserves it. Let’s go, AP!
Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Oct 30, 2009 9:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
DTR, you're my hero.
Thanks for the support.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Oct 31, 2009 2:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Anytime, Kalo
Just keep up the great posts. If you start to suck, I will totally turn my back on you. :)
Erykah Badu, I have accepted your proposal. So, Mrs. DTR, let's get to consummating...you are on notice.
"All praise Chiefus."
by DThomasReigns on Nov 1, 2009 9:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
dorsey has only
three less tackles thqan vrabel? wow
by KC Masterpiece on Oct 30, 2009 10:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts as a Chiefs fan and a Bama fan
As far as Gilberry is concerned, what he’s been effective at so far is basically what has always been his skill set: can generate a good pass rush at times but its based more on maximum effort than any superior athletic ability, but is too light in the pants to hold up real well against the run at this level. Hopefully, he can develop enough to flash some of the big play ability he had against the run his senior year in college (I think he had 27 tackles for loss to go with 10 sacks), but I doubt he will ever be a stout, hold the line type of 3-4 defensive end. Definitely well-suited for the third down role they’ve given him.
And on Terrence Cody, I think some might be underestimating him. His weight is certainly a concern, but he weighed we’ll over 400 lbs when he arrived at Alabama and he’s down to 354 now and is noticeably quicker this year. He still never gives up the middle on run plays, but has also shown that he can come down the line and make tackles for loss and string backs outside. The Tennessee game that was cited is both a bad a good example to derive from. That was Alabama’s 8th straight week with a game and their 5th straight SEC game. They looked and played like they were “slap wore out” as my father says. Despite that, Cody was able to come up with two huge plays when they were most needed and I think that shows off one his best attributes and that is heart. I think the Chiefs would be drafting a great player and maybe a Pro Bowler if they selected Cody.
But hey, I’m a homer so take it with a grain of salt. ;)
by alakan81 on Oct 31, 2009 12:06 AM CDT via mobile reply actions 2 recs
That is exactly why some look to these mocks
for people that see them play a lot. maybe AP Nation.
Just was wondering about taking plays off, not football first, type stuff.
Some do it and some don’t. Does Cody love to play ball enough to make it at the next level?
some say Tank was good BUT he could have been great if HE wanted to
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 31, 2009 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thx for the analysis, alakan
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 3:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post
Not quite sure why you would grade Vrabel over Tamba Hali.
by Cheflove on Oct 31, 2009 6:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Run D
And the tutelage that he’s giving to Studebaker and Jackson thus far. Yeah, Tamba’s got the sacks, but his run D leaves a lot to be desired, while Vrabel’s been asked to drop into coverage and does pretty well for what they ask of him.
Both are definitely strengths.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Nov 2, 2009 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Great post KP
Very well thought out.I’d like to refer back to a game with the Ravens a few years back when the chiefs completly took Ray Ray out of the equation.His biggest gripe after the game is that they(he) needed a wide body at NT.Hali Ngoti was drafted & that hasn’t happened again.The best NT has to be drafted/signed as a FA to jump start this “D”.What would the grades be with one?
John Soellner
by chiefs63 on Oct 31, 2009 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
That seems to be the sense of the senate, chiefs63.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 31, 2009 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
NT,OLB, S, WR, RG, LT (if they move Albert)
As far as Cody, I don’t see it. he isn’t a top five pick and I don’t see him getting passed SD where J Williams is declining fast. I do like Dan Williams of Tenn in the mid rounds or Udofia of Standford late. D W has played well against the best of the SEC and you know Pioli would like a Stanford guy.
OLB I like Edds of Iowa in the late 2nd or 3rd. He covers and tackles well and may play that inside spot Demarrio does. Somebody has to take the TE and the RBs. At S I like Nate Allen in the second (I expect Dorsey to be traded, I like Glen and he is doing well, but…) Maybe, just maybe Stuckey will be there.
WR I like Roberts out of Citadel in the 3rd or 4th. Not very big but blazing speed and a KR guy.
I think the 1st pick will be Okung unless Suh or Berry is there.
by FrankPitts on Oct 31, 2009 2:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Any grade for Alex McGee?…or can we assume a grade of “incomplete” through this point of the season?
by kc_radrh8r on Oct 31, 2009 7:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To be honest
I rarely see the guy on the field. He gets out there occasionally, but he’s poor to mediocre right now. I’m not saying he won’t flip it around…just that he’s struggling to pick up the pro game like most rookies.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Nov 2, 2009 8:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Was any lesson learned?
The only draft board that matters is the one Scotti Pioli and his College Scouting Staff construct.. You can pretty much throw the boards you see via the media out the door.. Scott showed us last year he’s going to go out and get the players he wants.. I think people get too entirely caught up in draft boards, trade value chart, and the combine..
by Warpaint69 on Nov 2, 2009 5:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I think people
Get entirely too caught up in mock drafts. It’s the middle of the season, nobody knows who’ll win/lose and in what position we’ll draft, nor is the college season over. Lots of things (bowls/combines/pro days) will happen between now and then that will change EVERYONE’s perceptions. It’s a bit futile to be discussing them right now.
There’s a lot of players that could step up and show they belong in their spots between now and then, as well. I get the desire to upgrade our team, but we’ve still got games to play.
**Disclaimer: I am not picking on you, Warpaint69, nor anyone in particular. It’s just odd that we hit the bye and 300 billion FanPosts go up about people’s mock drafts.
"I don't know if I want to go to New York. They'll have to pay me a lot more money because I like it here in Kansas City." -- Roger Maris
by KaloPhoenix on Nov 2, 2009 8:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
let Albert play Guard
this year -— we know the Chiefs arnt going anywhere -- he needs the rep give him game time experiance
by The_New_KC_Chiefs on Nov 10, 2009 3:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
you know what holding this defense back?????
THE FRICKIN GMS THAT CAN’T GET THEESE DRAFT PICKS SIGHNED ON TIME -—-if you notice last year Dorsey had a late start -—— this year Tyson didnt get sighned on time
by The_New_KC_Chiefs on Nov 10, 2009 3:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

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