What IS the Problem with the Chiefs O-line?
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 7:51 PM CDT
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Let's play connect the dots.
Now we were led to believe that we would implement the Erhardt-Perkins_offensive_system. The Patriot way.
"The Erhardt - Perkins system has at times had a reputation (whether or not earned) of being a traditional smash mouth offense." This would be in comparison to a Zone-Blocking type scheme. Ala Denver.
A Bill Parcells and Bill Bellicheck approved offensive scheme. One proven by NE, Pittsburgh, and others.
This would be a Drive-blocking O-line system to create a Power running game with a short-passing scheme.
Perfect fit for what personnel the Kansas City Chiefs fielded at the beginning of training camp.
Herm Edwards brought in the E-P Philosophy. The Kansas City Chiefs adopted this system with the
2007 hiring of Chan Gailey as offensive coordinator.
Both Todd Haley and Chan Gailey were proponents and fit with Scott Pioli's prefered offensive scheme also.
Now let's look at what Kansas City had in 2008.
Chan Gailey OC
Bob Bicknell O-Line coach
Joe D'Alessandris Asst O-line coach
Compared to what the Arizona Cardinals had in 2008.
Todd Haley OC
Russ Grimm O-line coach
Compare to what the Tampa Bay Bucanneers had in 2008.
Bill Muir OC
Bill Muir O-line coach
"With virtually the same offensive line coming back and same backfield with more depth, this should be a good tool for the new offensive coordinator, Jeff Jagodzinski to look at. We will be going with a different blocking scheme (zone vs man), but the data seems to indicate that the strength of the line in the running game is up the middle."
From Bucem.com
So we have A GM that wants to run a Man-block type O-line, HC/OC, and O-line coach. We brought in
Patriot and Miami O-lineman trained in EP principles:
Ryan O'Callaghan, Andy Alleman, Ikechuku Ndukwe.
Current players that were familiar with the concept:
Branden Albert
Brian Waters
Rudy Niswanger
Wade Smith
Brian Richardson
And the lone duck:
Mike Goff a Zone-blocking trained 12th year Guard from San Diego.
So what O-line scheme are we running?
from Stagdsp
"i believe it's been referred to as a zone blocking scheme Which typically demands smaller, more athletic OL…thus, the weight loss for Albert and others. That might also give a clue as to what type of linemen are being looked at in FA and the draft…"
From Bewsaf's Post
Kansas City, do we have a problem?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Problem
is lack of skill.
There really is no other reason.
[img]http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eTH2sm73rf3u/610x.jpg[/img]
i disagree
That is part of it… but scheme and protections are a huge issue right now
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
As a side note...
When I reviewed the film I noticed about 3 run plays where the backside did a cut-block.
Bewsaf
Zone blocking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_run
The Kansas City Chiefs with Larry Johnson have been successful using this scheme
that’s kinda funny, considering what’s going on now
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
A total Identity issue :(
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
on a side note...
The Chiefs also lack a a tight end.
Having a tight end blocking and a tight end who can catch down the middle of the field opens up the offense. It’s a huge advantage.
[img]http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0eTH2sm73rf3u/610x.jpg[/img]
another good post on it
http://www.revengeofthebirds.com/2008/8/4/586288/zone-blocking-versus-man-b
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
quote
On zone blocking: “It’s easier when you’re picking up stunting defensive lines because the angles are a lot easier for the offensive linemen to take on the defensive linemen. Because really, what you’re doing is your working an area. So if your man stunts inside, you know the guy next to you is coming in that direction, he’ll take him. So all you have to focus on is your steps and your technique. Then it’s up to the back to pick the hole based on what he sees, which is what Edge is comfortable with because that’s a lot of what Indianapolis did when he was there.”
On the power scheme: “The advantage…of blocking down and pulling linemen is it creates holes, because you’re essentially cutting the defense in half. You’re more determining where the hole is going to be, and if the blocks are done correctly, there will be bigger holes for the back to go into. In the power scheme, more of those runs are going to hit into the holes where they were designed. Where in the zone scheme, we can start in one direction and it can actually bend all the way back.”
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
and
In the zone scheme instead of a back having a hole to run through, he reads the flow of the offensive line and finds the hole. This often leads to cut-back runs but requires backs to run decisively and have very good vision.
precisely LJ would struggle nowadays with a zone scheme, and why Charles or Smith would be better
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
So Muir is not the right O-line coach
and most of the Chiefs O-lineman are learning to Zone block this year.
Why did we grab Lineman from Parcells Bellicheck teams and not Indy or Denver?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:09 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought that quote was saying Muir was bringing zone blocking to TB?
We will be going with a different blocking scheme (zone vs man),
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
No Jagazinski the new OC is bringing the Zone scheme
Muir was Man blocking
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Made me look
During his time with the Atlanta Falcons, Jagodzinski learned offensive zone blocking schemes from Alex Gibbs,
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:22 PM CDT up reply actions
Agee'd
LJ couldn’t find his ass with both hands.
by CPT.Caveman on Oct 28, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah just read it
So Russ Grimm is running a Zone-Block Scheme.
I was actually flying by the seat of my pants, trying to determine what how was running.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:07 PM CDT up reply actions
great post on the topic with diagrams!!!
http://www.rockytoptalk.com/2009/3/31/815874/zone-blocking-tutorial-inside-zone
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Oct 27, 2009 8:36 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
Explains LJ running into the back of Drive blockers trying to Zone Block
•Decisive. No, really. A backfield dancer is absolutely doomed.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Explains why O-lineman are standing around blocking no one
Explains why Goff can’t hand off a DL when the rest of the team has little understanding of what is expected by a LineCoach that is a Man Blocking guy :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 27, 2009 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Actually, Goff scouted as a true E-P lineman, who STRUGGLED with San Diego's switch to zone blocking.
Makes the whole o-line seem nonsensical, rather than simply a failure of execution of a good plan…
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
I also
Think the weight loss is hurting B.Albert.
by CPT.Caveman on Oct 28, 2009 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions
Do we have a problem?
I’d say so. We are 1-6!
by raiderhater77 on Oct 27, 2009 8:53 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
So basically, we built a mauler line, and then asked 'em to slim down and play like an undersized, but QUICK line.
What a hodgepodge. Or should I say “cluster fuck?”
Thanks for this Post, Steve. It’s clearing up a lot of my confusion. It seems I was confused, because what they did made no real sense.
Thanks, stagdsp. Appreciate the link. :o)
At its peak, the Denver O seemed able to get positive yardage, almost no matter what, and you had to do everything right defensively to prevent 4+.
Denver had smaller, quicker O-Line for YEARS before Alex Gibbs turned them into a dominant running team.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
My biggest problem.......
Is not only are they asking big guys to play small but, they are asking players on the d-fensive side of the ball to play 3-4. This team for the last 3 years or so has been drafting guy’s for the 4-3 and corners that are better suited for cover 2. Then we wonder why are team looks like crap every week. This team, i hope can pull it together and show some sign’s of life before the season is over.
by CPT.Caveman on Oct 28, 2009 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Another reason I advocate running the triple option here in KC...
We have the Mauler guys he want to run the football, they slimmed down, and are suppossedly more agile. Running the veer, gives lineman that traditionally have talent issues a fighting chance, because it almost always allows a double team at point of attack. Granted the only guy on the roster that could have run it is now in miami…. but…. why not run the triple option with larry as the qb, surely he’ll make some dumb choices and get blown up by a DE a few times…..
btw… I’m only half joking…
funny, because I was browsing thru the Wiki site and thought "hey, why NOT the Wishbone"
it would be safer for Cassel in the long run – or at least no more dangerous than now with the number of hits he takes … have the FB in and 2 of the 3 RBs (Charles, Smith, Savage) and they can rotate in/out as needed … takes advantage of speed on the outside with Charles … makes Defense expend more energy running to the edges (maybe) …
considering what we’ve seen so far, could it hurt?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Zb
I am a huge advocate of zone blocking. It is far superior to man blocking, IMO. The thing that confuses me about our stuggle is that zb is sooooo much easier than man blocking. Bascially, you just have to recognize if you are covered or uncovered and memorize a set of rules for each player. This is in contrast to man blocking where you have to find out who your man is against an infinite number of defenses. Zone blocking takes out the gray area.
BTW, zone blocking is not an offense — it is just a blocking scheme. I have always wanted to know if Erhardt-Perkins was a man blocking offense or a zb offense. I guess I could look for some tape, but does anyone know the answer to this?
I am a little bit confused on the initial post. You say Erhard-Perkins is a smashmouth, man blocking offense, but then you say something about the Chiefs implementing a zone blocking scheme.
I think that was the point of the post...
everyone is confused… Generally a team has specific philosophy… and it seems to have been muddled a bit.
memorize assignments? well, in THAT case, we just need to get guys who score high on the Wonderlic
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
great post
especially the rocky top talk diagram…..it seems we’re trying to fit square pegs into round holes…..rec’d
maybe Joel can confirm with Looney or someone that the Chiefs are in fact zb?
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Wouldn't be hard to do
Give me some tape and I will let you know. I haven’t had the time to set up my DVR to tape the games for this year so I have none. Just from memory, I never really remember us running zb, but the defenders got past our linemen so fast I probably didn’t notice.
from what I watched...
I think they are trying to ZB…just like Steve said above…
that explains why the OL often seems to not know whom to block
If they are trying to learn a totally new blocking scheme, and they haven’t played together, and some are playing at significantly lower weights… there are bound to be issues in the first year.
That may also explain why Haley and Pioli don’t appear to “panic” about the poor OL play… they expected it. Maybe they knew it was a total shift in the way these guys were asked to block, so it would take them most of a season or more to get it right.
This could also explain why Albert and Waters don’t look as dominant as they did last year… both are trying to learn a totally different way of playing their positions.
It could explain why Waters has more holding penalties and doesn’t “maul” as much… maybe he’s trying to think and recognize his responsibilities, which causes hesitation. That hesitation could make him late to get to his man, which leads to holding penalties.
When I tried to break down the tape of the games earlier in the year, I noticed a LOT of what appeared to me as “complex” protections. I argued then, and still somewhat believe, that the linemen arent’ getting physically dominated as much as they are missing assingments and letting guys go unblocked. Again, those are symptoms of a major change in blocking schemes…
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Hmm...
If it is true zb, missing assingments shouldn’t be the problem. Knowing your assignment is easiest in the zb, but the technique is probably more difficult — you have to rely on good footwork and communication with your fellow linemen to execute it successfully.
I will have to pay attention next game to the blocking scheme. In the meantime, will be a Chiefs game replayed on NFL Network anytime soon?
missed assignments...
I wouldn’t think it’s a problem unless you have more than one guy in your “zone” or nobody in your “zone”…
then, you have to know how to adjust, right?
ANd, I don’t know of any replay games coming up. I have a couple on DVR, if you tell me what to look for I could watch closer
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Sort of...
There are some technicalities. The underlying principle is uncovered vs. covered. If you are covered, you block your guy. If a guy is uncovered, they help the guy that is covered and the goal is to always eliminate the man who is the biggest threat to the play.
The easiest thing to look for would probably be combo blocks. Let me make some diagrams real quick.
look at the ones on that link above
makes sense… the Chiefs are probably just not getting off of the double team when the blitzers come in?
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
another question...
in ZB, do you ever have pulling guards and tackles?
the Chiefs seem to attempt to pull Waters and Goff quite a bit…
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Diagram
Here is quick diagram I made comparing inside zone to man blocking.
Also there are two parts to zone blocking — inside zone and outside zone. And yes, there can certainly be pulling guards, and this is common in outside zone plays like tosses, sweeps, and options, especially in single-back formations like pro style offenses. One reason you don’t see that from us is because we are running up the most of the time. At the college level, a lot of times a FB is used to lead instead of a pulling guard. I can make more diagrams if you want.
A little explanation
Above, the center and right tackle would be classified as covered. The uncovered offensive lineman is the right guard. The right guard then must decide who to combo with — the center or tackle. Since the end is closest to the gap where the play is going, the end is the biggest threat to the play so the RG combos with the RT. Footwork is very important here, you must make sure your shoulders are square so you don’t get a holding call (see Brian Waters).
While comboing, both RG and RT must keep their eyes on the LB to see where he plugs. In the example above, the linebacker has guessed wrong and taken himself out of the play. If he recovers and tries to plug, the guard releases the combo and takes the backer. As you can see, there is a lot of potential for cut backs, which is what the zb is built on. If everbody does their job, even if the defense guesses right, there will still be the potential for a cutback 90% of the time.
This is in contrast to a man blocking scenario as displayed on the right, where you are assigned your man and you are on your own (most of the time).
by Nick Britt on Oct 28, 2009 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
nice job, wrecked.
makes sense to me
I think KC is running a zone blocking scheme, but they are struggling with the decisions on who to combo,and when to take the backer/DB
Also, LJ is not good at cutting back when the hole doesnt’ develop in front of him
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
Good to hear
Good to hear we are running the zb…it will pay dividends in the long run once we get the right personnel.
I will definitely start paying closer attention to the O-Line and use the bye week to set up my DVR on my computer.
Excellent stuff
Thanks Nick
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 28, 2009 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions
thanks, that really added to the conversation
appreciate the insight
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
If we are implementing the Zone-blocking scheme.
That would be fine, But why bring in Bill Muir to oversee the transition.
Why grab guys from other teams that man-block themselves?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
that's the question of the day
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
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