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Is Todd Haley a Marty Ball Coach?

Kansas City Chiefs head coach Todd Haley watches during the fourth quarter of a preseason NFL football game against the Seattle Seahawks Saturday, Aug. 29, 2009 in Kansas City, Mo. The Seahawks won the game 14-10. (AP Photo/Charlie Riedel)

More photos » by Charlie Riedel - AP

2 months ago: Kansas City Chiefs head coach Todd Haley watches during the fourth quarter of a preseason NFL football game against the Seattle Seahawks Saturday, Aug. 29, 2009 in Kansas City, Mo. The Seahawks won the game 14-10. (AP Photo/Charlie Riedel)

If you would have told me three months ago that I would be writing a story about Todd Haley being a Marty Ball coach, I would have told you that you were crazy. But you know what? The more I watch the Chiefs progress under Pioli and Haley's watch, the more I believe that this is the direction the Chiefs are heading.

Okay, let me take a step back here. The phrase "Marty Ball" has a negative connotation in Kansas City. It has become associated with Marty Schottenheimer's ultra-conservative offensive approach in which a team plays not to lose the game instead of going after the opposing team's throat. The offensive approach depends upon a clock-extending running game, a terrific defense, and a very conservative passing attack. The Chiefs saw Marty Ball at its worst in 2007 when Herm Edwards convinced Mike Solari to run a very conservative variation of the Marty Ball offense (affectionately referred to as R2P2, which means Run, Run Pass, Punt). In so many instances, Chiefs' fans saw outstanding playoff teams derail because the team refused to take chances.

But Chiefs' fans quickly forget that there are variations of a Marty Ball offense that are much more aggressive. Bill Cowher had a similar philosophy in Pittsburgh. Like Marty, Cowher relied on a game management approach in which his team played swarming defense and smashmouth football. Where Cowher differed in philosophy is that when his teams decided to pass, they weren't afraid to throw downfield, they were a little more aggressive in key moments of the game, and they weren't afraid to use a little trickery.

Star-divide

Many people expected Haley to open up the Chiefs' offense is because he came from an Arizona offense that loved to attack, attack, attack. That offense was built around its personnel. You have a so-so offensive line, two stud receivers, and a quarterback who loves to throw a million times per game. Of course you're going to attack teams through the air. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that this is the kind of team that Haley wants to build. It doesn't even necessarily mean that this is the kind of team Ken Whisenhunt wants to build once Warner leaves.

 

How quickly we forget that Whisenhunt is the strongest branch to come from the Cowher tree. Given that Whisenhunt probably influenced Haley the most in his career, it seems perfectly logical that Cowher's influence rubbed off on Haley through Whisenhunt, even if that influence wasn't readily apparent on a Warner-led Cardinals offense. In the beginning of the season, I assumed that Haley's conservative approach was largely aimed at protecting his quarterbacks from a really bad offensive line. The more I watch this team progress, the more I'm starting to wonder if this is actually the way Haley wants to build his team even after the offensive line is set.

After all, look at Haley's playcalling. He loves to run on first down, he tends to lay up on long yardage situations, and his offense seems to rely a lot moreso on avoiding mistakes than in aggressively going for the throat.

It really isn't that ridiculous to believe and it isn't nearly as bad as the Marty Ball stigma suggests. Because of that stigma, I'm going to start referring to it as Cowher Ball. A lot of the telltale signs of a Cowher ball type offense are there. Scott Pioli clearly wants to build around his defense. We saw that this offseason, when he took a defensive player with three of the first four picks in the draft.

Here's a much more subtle telltale sign. With all the Chiefs' roster moves they've made and how quick they've been to cut decent players like Herb Taylor and Turk McBride, isn't it interesting that the Chiefs still saved a spot for Weston Dacus and Terrence Copper? These players are garbage. Why are they wasting roster spots? The answer is simple. They both happen to be terrific special teams players. Haley seems committed to building a very good special teams unit, even if that means keeping a few specialists on the roster.  Even against Washington, instead of kicking a few long field goals or going for it on fourth down when they were near field goal range, he opted to punt. On a lot of situations, Haley seems to be very protective of field position.

Oh yeah, the Chiefs also happen to have a kicker who seems to be pretty darn good. You need a clutch kicker if you're going to play anxiety-inducing games that will often require your kicker to kick a lot of late game go-ahead field goals.

This approach might be a good thing for Matt Cassel. The more I watch him play, the more I think he'll never be the tactician that Brady or Cassel or Warner are. In fact, I don't want Haley to mold him into the next Kurt Warner. If I wanted Cassel to model himself after any quarterback, it would be Ben Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger isn't a tactician of the game. He makes quite a few mistakes early in the game and to this day, he still has a tendency to hold onto the ball too long. The reason Big Ben is Big Ben is because he's a tough quarterback who knows when to make plays when they matter most. Even Cassel's biggest critics have to admire his late-game heroics this season. Cassel has had three drives in three games that were legitimate, late game, go-ahead drives. One of them was in Oakland and two of them were in Dallas (one of those drives, of course, was pushed back on a holding penalty that ultimately resulted in a blocked field goal).

What does this mean for a Chiefs' fan if true? Again, this whole analysis assumes that Haley sticks to a similar offensive approach even if he gets an offensive line that can support a lethal passing attack. It means that you shouldn't expect Haley to replicate the same kind of fireworks show on offense that he created in Arizona. It means that you can expect Pioli to continue loading up on defensive players, while treating the offense as a second-class citizen. It means that we can expect a few seasons of heart attacks---the Chiefs are probably going to win a lot more close games than they win blowouts.

It might not be quite the approach you were expecting from Haley, but it's not as bad as you might think.

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Agreed

It’s a football philosophy that can be successful regardless of personnel. Naturally, your guys can’t completely suck but you don’t require a superstar at any one position.

Founded Arrowhead Pride 7/26/2006

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by Chris Thorman on Oct 20, 2009 6:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

No, we do not wish for the Gansz era to return

(win ONLY by special teams)

Air Cassel - approved for takeoff

by kabrink on Oct 20, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think so
Given that Whisenhunt probably influenced Haley the most in his career, it seems perfectly logical that Cowher’s influence rubbed off on Haley through Whisenhunt

While I’m sure he learned a good bit from Whiz, he was only there for two years, but has what…six or seven years under Parcells? And he grew up watching Noll and the Steelers back in the day.

I think it comes down to this….he wants an extremely physical team that just knocks the crap out of the opponent and the best way to do that is cram the ball down their throats. We will get to see plenty of wrinkles that will be very un-Marty like too.

Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.

by Zodeman on Oct 20, 2009 6:50 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

I agree.

Martyball it isnt. We will take shots down the field, and at this point, you cant assume an identity. Its to early. Midway through next season I think is a good time for that.

by The IT Guy on Oct 20, 2009 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: That's what Marty Ball is

If you scroll further down, I talk about how Cowher Ball is a variation of Marty Ball. It’s got the Marty Ball control the ball philosophy, but it’s much more willing to throw a lot of trickery in there too. Cowher loved trick plays more than anybody, whether that was using Kordell as a short yardage QB or handing the ball off to Randle El for a deep WR pass.

Remember, Haley’s last mentor was Whisenhunt, a Cowher disciple. I think there’s a very good chance he approaches a similar philosophy as Cowher. We know Pioli’s primary focus is to build a great defense. And frankly, I see Cassel as more of a Big Ben QB than a Drew Brees QB. Is it that farfetched to believe that Haley’s goal for this offense is to revolve the team around the Marty Ball principles of playing tough defense, playing for field position on special teams, and controlling the clock so that you can put your offense in a position to win in the 4th quarter?

by Jon Yoon on Oct 20, 2009 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cowher and Parcells

both would be good team design models in my mind. I think the conservatism we see today though is really just due to personnel and the reality of where we are currently.

Air Cassel - approved for takeoff

by kabrink on Oct 20, 2009 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Haley's playing the hand he's been dealt

Sure he plays it close to the vest now — how’s he going to repeatedly attack downfield when Cassel’s getting knocked to the turf on every other pass?

It’s way too early to get a read on any kind of philosophy. Once we have a line that can protect the QB and a receiving core that might stretch the field a little, then we’ll see what he wants his offense do.

by SlipperyPete on Oct 20, 2009 6:51 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the philosophy right now is more of "this is a new offense" then anything.

Everyone seems to forget this offense has only been installed a little over 6 weeks and its a very big transition. I think Haley is definetly using a more conservative approach for the time being because he isn’t getting the execution out of the players yet that he needs to open the playbook. Its definetly getting there but this offense has the experience value of one at the end of OTAs in the offseason.

"Success is never ending, failure is never final."

by GenericBrand on Oct 20, 2009 6:54 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Remember he took over a team run by ULTRA conservative Herm

I think Haley is running the offense he can with the players he has. I think he is dying to go downfield but the line cannot keep anything resembling a pocket for Cassel. Haley has gambled an awful lot on 4th down this season, and his roots are WR/QB coaching. Also look at the formations he runs, a lot of shotgun spread-like formations, Marty NEVER ran the shotgun.

by sandpro on Oct 20, 2009 6:59 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Marty would have never

EEEEver called that slant on second down.

Predictions for 2009:

LJ runs for 1800 yards
Bowe in the pro bowl
Chiefs D finishes in the top 10 in points allowed
Chiefs 10-6

by bonesjackson on Oct 20, 2009 7:07 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

That was my favorite play call this whole season.

Bowe is the perfect WR to make that play. He’s strong enough to get the inside position on any DB who is covering him and that play happens so quick, it’s almost impossible to defend.
Cassel needs to be able to audible to that every time he sees the LBs moving up to blitz. That will keep the defense honest and keep them from being able to continually blitz.

It wouldn’t hurt Haley to watch the Saints offense closely and steal a few pages from their playbook. Brees is probably the greatest QB against the blitz out there right now and it’s because they have constructed an offense that has numerous plays that get the ball out quickly and allow their WRs enough space to get plenty of YAC. I would really like to see more of that kind of offense in KC.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 20, 2009 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Marty Ball vs. Cowher Ball

Marty wouldn’t.

But Cowher would.

Cowher was all about a ball control offense, then catching defenses off guard by going for big plays. He loved fake punts/field goals. He loved trick plays.

Like I said in my post, I’m not saying Haley will play pure Marty Ball, but I can easily see him running a variation of it that’s basically a slightly more aggressive version of Cowher Ball. I feel like that’s a lot more realistic than the wide open offense built in Arizona.

by Jon Yoon on Oct 20, 2009 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Bones is exactly right: Marty would have run it three times and punted and hoped the defense held (it usually did).

I think people forget how many games we won in the 90s that were just as ugly as Sunday. There were tons of 10-7 or 14-13 wins under Marty. I don’t remember people complaining that we didn’t win those games convincingly enough. Or that they somehow didn’t really count.

And I was stunned by the slant to Bowe. It was a great call. But every call is great if the play is executed and every call is horrible if it isn’t.

Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.

by Rev. Slappy on Oct 20, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

After thinking about it, sometimes a certain play is a bad call.

Like punting of first down. But when you call for a short screen pass on 3rd and 17 and it somehow goes for 25 you do look like a genius.

Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.

by Rev. Slappy on Oct 20, 2009 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Why don't we just ask?

AP just happens to have some one with a press pass, and while I understand right now may not be the best time to ask for a sit down with Haley maybe the Bye week or the off season maybe an interview can be asked for. It would be kind of cool for a list of questions like this to be put together, you know the questions the normal media don’t ask, and see if Haley will give AP an interview. Just a thought of a way for Chiefs fans to ask the questions that they really want to know, with the understanding that they might not get the answers til the off season.

is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?

I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!

by KC Fanatic on Oct 20, 2009 7:27 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Yep

That’ll happen eventually….in-season is pretty freakin’ tough but I’ll keep pluggin’ at it to get a chance to do that (believe me, I have been trying :0)

by Joel Thorman on Oct 20, 2009 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

if you could get it done....

There’s a chance I might give you my second born….. I’d love to see how he’d answer some out of the box questions….

by callmesir on Oct 20, 2009 8:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Ditto that

Because a good chunk of them I bet he actually would answer.

by Primussux on Oct 20, 2009 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What about the reverses? The onside kicks?

There are certainly flashes of gimmicky that lead me to believe Haley wants to open up the offense. However, football is about fundamentals—something our offensive line clearly doesn’t have a handle on yet. At times, it almost looks like Cassel is blocking for our O-line. Once they master the basics, we can start being more creative.

by Pilcrow on Oct 20, 2009 7:28 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I hate reverses.

What % of the time do they ever work? Too long development time for NFL seems to me.

Air Cassel - approved for takeoff

by kabrink on Oct 20, 2009 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

So glad you posted this.

The one thing I’ve been willing to concede to Haley, was that While his play calling may be boring, it’s probably the best way to play with an inferior team in terms of talent.

There is a long withstanding notion that in order to beat a more talented team, you run the ball, take your time in between plays, control the clock as long as humanly possible. Old triple option teams like navy are a perfect example, in fact they got so good at it, that they’re actually a pretty good football team now.

If you limit the total number of posessions the other team has, you limit the number of times they can score, effectively keeping yourselves in the game. If you’re able to control the time of posession, even if you’re getting beaten up and down the field, you’re still only a couple of scores down. Leaving you able to win ball games.

I know Herm got alot of crap for his offensive philosophies, but if he had a more talented offensive football team, I’m sure his attitudes about how to win a ball game would have changed. His first year in KC, they still had a pretty wide open offense, but that’s because the pieces were still there to do it.

It’s a time tested way to beat superior talent, or at the very least, keep the game respectable.

by callmesir on Oct 20, 2009 8:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

good comment and ever so right

and hey, I have NO problem with a Martyball approach if it means we win more games in a decade than any other team and go to the playoffs half of those years etc etc etc

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Oct 20, 2009 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

would be nice, yeah

but you have to get TO the playoffs FIRST

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Oct 20, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Cheifsfan1970: I agree with you about winning championships, and I think Haley and Pioli do, too.

I think the lack of a Superbowl appearance in nearly 40 years has caused many fans to just think making the playoffs is a good thing. It is, you have to make the playoffs before you can get to the Superbowl. But I really want to be a fan of an organization with bigger goals than just sneaking into the playoffs like the Chiefs did 3 years ago.

Toby is in HR, which technically means he works for corporate, so he's really not a part of our family. Also, he's divorced, so he's really not a part of his family.

by Rev. Slappy on Oct 20, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

do we honestly

think this offense is really good enough to go after someones throat? I dont, Cassel is good but doesnt exactly have the weapons needed to do so, Larry Johnson is a pathetic excuse of someone who thinks hes competitive

Pujols takes out "I" in BIG and "A" in MAC, previously considered to be an unyielding, consonant threat

by DESTROYER on Oct 20, 2009 8:04 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

exactly why

the conservative approach is the best route for this particular ball club… at this particular time… we just don’t have the pieces…. so we need to do our best to shorten the hell out of the clock, and limit mistakes…. all in all I think cassel has done a fabulous job of this… can’t even remember his last pick. and for the most part we’ve had no real fumbling problems… A marty ball offense that doesn’t turn the ball over is the best way to upset a better team

by callmesir on Oct 20, 2009 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'm calling BS on that.

Bowe is as good of a downfield threat as there is in the league. He doesn’t have the gamebreaking speed but, he makes up for it with his ability to go after the football in the air. Most DBs cannot contest a well placed ball to D-bowe.

There are weapons on this team who have NOT been used properly to put them in position to make big plays. Jamal Charles is one of them and so is Mark Bradley. (although Bradley keeps dropping easy passes so that’s his fault) Jamal Charles should be catching 4-5 passes per game out of the backfield. He gets nice gains on the swing passes every time we try it but, we rarely do.

Lance Long needs to become part of this offense and at the very least, start seeing some playing time. The kid is quick and speedy and can get open on the short-intermediate routes. They need to get him OFF the practice squad and let him play. See if he is worth keeping around. If this is an evaluation year then, we should say “fuck it” and start seeing if any of these young players are worth holding on to.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 20, 2009 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It'd be wonderful to throw the ball down the field

but the line doesn’t really afford us the opportunity to do that…. and to be perfectly honest… not a great idea for this team to try to get into a shootout with anyone…. it would most likely result in some blow outs…. if we’re throwing the ball three times and getting off the field, it leaves an awful lot of time for the other team to put up points….

It’s not like I’m just making up shit…. people have been using these concepts of ball control forever to try to win unwinnable games…. you can install packages and plays without having to run all of them this year…. it can be a situation where you get your guys comfortable with terminology, and assignments… then you try to fit a few more play makers in the mix…

by callmesir on Oct 20, 2009 9:25 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not saying you should go deep on every play.

I personally think the short passing game is the way to roll. Our run game is NOT very good so, you let Cassel play to his strengths which is the short-intermediate routes allowing the WRs a chance to get the YAC. Short passing attacks still eat up tons of clock as long the passes are completed and your receivers stay in bounds.

by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 20, 2009 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

in all fairness....

Cassel has been completing a pretty high percent of his passes, but the short and intermediate routes are kinda part of the ball control philosophy…. I know that it seems ignorant to say that big plays are the enemy when you’re trying to limit possesions… but it kinda is…. Assuming you stick to the game plan…. it’s kinda what lane kiffin did against florida… I think mostly just to prevent from being embaressed

by callmesir on Oct 20, 2009 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What's weird to me....

is that if he knew he was going to have this marty ball offense all along… why get rid of gailey????

by callmesir on Oct 20, 2009 9:10 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The term "Marty Ball" is verboten!

Thats like comparing the current wars to Vietnam and “quagmirer” they are highly provocative terms especially for someone who suffered through the era and should not be used lightly. Ill give you a few reasons Hally is not Marty.

1. HE HAS BEEN TO A SUPERBOWL!
2. He makes gutsy unconventional play calls here and there
3. He actually throws the ball
4. The Cardinals WR attack
5. He is constantly pissed off (Marty was like a stone faced accountant)
6. He is too pissed off all the time to be a bean counter type (Marty)
7. Pioli will fire his ass before he gets more than 1 or 2 opertunities to go one and done in the playoffs without geting to the superbowl
8. Did I mention he has been to the super bowl (yah I dont care if it wasnt with this team)
9. Larry Johnson isnt carrying the ball 3 out of 4 plays every down
10. Our offensive line sucks too much to make the kind of dent mr. run first could.

I could go on. But sufice to say Hally isnt Marty…..thank Jesus.

by MasterBlaster7 on Oct 20, 2009 9:31 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

no, Haley is NOT Marty by any means ...

1. Marty took THREE teams to the playoffs … not one, not two, but THREE … and not a one-year
     oh wow look what we did thing, but year after year after year, his teams were consistently tops
2. The unconventional plays (trick plays) are cute and fun to watch (when they work) and a waste of time when they don’t (see Rev Slappy comment above)
3. Marty’s teams also threw the ball – DeBerg, Montana … you forget those guys?
4. Constantly pissed off is a good thing???
5. Marty COACHED … he didn’t just yell and demote players, he COACHED
6. Let’s see if the team can even GET to the playoffs first, and THEN see how many one and
    out opportunities Haley gets
7. Did I mention Haley was NOT a HC with the team he rode the coattails of – just because
    the team he was on HAPPENED to have Warner, Boldin, Fitzgerald … oh yeah, those guys
8. LJ carries the ball – LJ runs into his own linemen – LJ stopped at the line – LJ starts again
9. yeah the O-Line sucks (talk to Pioli about personnel) but part of it is having no time with the
    current playbook and terminology, and for that blame Haley

no, Haley is NOT Marty … what a shame

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Oct 20, 2009 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

+1

Thank you upamtn for saying exactly what needed to be said.

Marty has had so much success in this league….How do you compare a coach who is 1-5 to Marty? You don’t,so don’t even try…

I would love to have marty as our coach..Would love that

ps…Marty didn’t look to bad coaching those chargers did he? Marty ball ended with the chiefs…He learned his lessons and opened up and took more chances with the chargers

by CALIFAN1986 on Oct 20, 2009 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Too early to tell...

It seems Haley has used the first 6 games in a matter of evaluating talent, and maybe toughness, in order to see whom his players are. I hope. Hopefully from here on out he will start playing more to win instead of the player carousel. Unfortunately, it looks like we still need some more players off the street.

by 12t on Oct 20, 2009 12:41 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"we still need some more players off the street"

hookers?

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!

by upamtn on Oct 20, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There is nothing worse than having a terrible ST.

I would rather those roster spots go towards ST players because once we get a decent PR/KR…i think our ST will be the strength of this team. Our punter is already the best if not the second or third best in the NFL and our kicker showed us in the Washington game that he is a solid player we can rely upon when it matters most.

by Kristospherein on Oct 20, 2009 1:11 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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