Reality check on Dorsey! (including stats)
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 10:21 AM CDT
100 comments
Ok first off this is NOT a bash Dorsey post. So let's not get all negative here. This is simply some stats compiled this year that I thought would make for some good conversation. So let's play nice and share our personal OPINIONS. I'm using stats to back up my opinion. I did this post because of the trade rumors flying around again, with his name in them.
So before we review the stats. Lets keep in mind that we are Chiefs fans, so we don't have an easy time trying to look at our players objectively. We don't see them as the rest of the league sees them because we are fans and therefore familiar with our players. Most fans of other teams have never even heard of Dorsey. He's not well known. He's not a big name and he won't come up in ANY discussion where fans of other teams are listing their top 10 defensive ends that they would love to have playing on their team.
I for one don't think that he would be any loss what so ever if we got a decent trade for him. He is better suited to a 4-3 defense. Well, that's the truth, he is.
This year, he has had 14 solo tackles. That's actually one of the BEST for a DE in the NFL. And I'm only using solo stats here. If we used assists on tackles Dorsey would begin to fade away. So keep that in mind. He looks good with 14 solo tackles and that is good, but TOTAL tackles, he is not a superstar. That's only one facet of a superior De's abilities anyway. Let's compare him to other TRULY excellent DE's.
Dorsey only has those SOLO tackles going for him. He has zero sacks. No FF's. No int's and 1 penalty against him thus far. So overall, very very average stats compared to the following;
Freeney has only 9 solo tackles, but he has SIX sacks already....SIX.
Haynesworth has 12 solo with 2 sacks.
Peppers 18 solo with FIVE sacks.
Now there's always the same crop of people that are going to try and tell us why these aren't fair comparisons. You know who you are and you ARE entitled to your opinion. Just know please, that I 100% disagree with those type arguments.
Those guys are so good that they completely change the face of the defense for the team they play for. Look at the Titans. Their defense is HORRIBLE this year without Haynesworth. So now we KNOW for sure that all those other guys he made look good, aren't as good as we thought they were. He's just that amazing.
That's what greatness is. It's not about finding excuses why someone is flat terrible in their stats compared to other players who play the same position. So feel free to use that argument til the cows come home for the sake of discussion and freedom of opinion. I don't have any issue with that. Just know that your wasting your time with ME on that argument. I am not into EXCUSES of any kind. Great players find ways to be great despite the odds.
Dorsey has been in the basement on most stats for some time now for a reason. He needs to go to a different team IMO. It would be good for him and for us. We need to nab players who can truly EXCEL in our 3-4. I refuse to settle for this accepting mediocricy bullshit here in KC anymore. If we are going to get to a superbowl, we need some superstars. We are not going to get there by keeping average players on our team and then when they do a little better than they have been doing, we all drink the kool - aid.
You shouldn't need a constant up and down comparison if your a stud. Seymour, Haynesworth, Freeney (who even by Dungy's own admission has played with some very average lines and still found a way to excel) and really all superstars find a way to be superstars despite the team their on or the circumstances. That's what make them "super". Hence superstars.
Trade Dorsey if he'll help another team and be a better player in a better scheme for him. As long as we get something of value for him, we'll be better for it. Just my opinion though.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Good educated opinion
Im inclined to want to keep Dorsey personally, but good post.
A man who says he can, and a man who says he can't are both right. Which one are you?
by Bashman on Oct 19, 2009 10:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
tks bashman...I know he has a pretty fair sized following too
so I might be wrong about him….I don’t KNOW that my feelings about him are absolute or even correct. I didn’t need the stats to help me in my opinion either. I put those up for conversation sake.
I just don’t feel that he will ever be a super stud. I am in the mode right now of let’s get some serious studs on our team and let’s get on with it man…let’s blow some team out 59-0.
That’s gotta give you shivers to know your team can do that at will…wow!!
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just a couple of points...
1. I think Dorsey will be a “very good”…I will say it again, very good DT in the 4-3 in the NFL.
2. Currently the KC Chiefs are running more of a 4-3 under…which means Dorsey is playing in a system that is more suited to him than if the Chiefs wanted him to play a true 3-4 end. So Dorsey is “not” really being asked to do all the things those other 3-4 DE are being asked to do.
3. Everyone would agree, I think, that Seymour is the prototypical 3-4 RDE. He was currently traded to a 4-3 team and is playing RDE on that 4-3 team because he apparently has some pass rush skills. Since Seymour is the prototype then we might expect to put Dorsey at a 4-3 defensive end and see the same ability to pass rush “if” Dorsey is a true 3-4 RDE…well…we all know he cannot do that.
4. My opinion is…Draft an O-lineman or a safety in the draft (first round).
5. You only, and I mean only, trade Dorsey if you can replace him with a true 3-4 end “and” maybe get something else. That might end up being ok.
Bewsaf
by Bewsaf on Oct 19, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Krayfish.
You are comparing a 3-4 DE in Dorsey to a 4-3 DE in Freeney. I’ll give you some basic 4-3 to 3-4 understanding. In a 4-3 defense, you rush the front four to get pressure on the quarterback. Therefore the system is built to make the DE’s make plays. Which is why Freeney has 6 sacks. However, a 3-4 system rushes 3 lineman and a linebacker or two. The linebackers are designed to make plays, the lineman are designed to fill gaps and open holes, in otherwords anchor the line to setup the linebackers. In doing that Dorsey has a few swatted passes which is good, and some tackles for a loss. Dorsey should stay. He’s a bright spot.
by TonylovesKC on Oct 19, 2009 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah...that helps a lot towards understanding...
I dont’ really grasp the whole 34 43 package differences. Allright then. I’ll wait to see where he’s at towards the end of the season…
Thanks for the input..that was helpful.
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good analysis
One edit you might want to make or at least add to your post is a comparison to other DE or dlineman that play in the 4-3 since all the players you listed are 4-3 players and would have much different stats.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Oct 19, 2009 10:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
ahhh, that's a good point...I thought peppers was on a 3-4 though..
my bad…that’s where I think he would excel don’t you? If he stayed lean and tough and continued to grow into his position as a 4-3 guy. I think he would be great for the Lions. Gunther knows him already, he knows Gunther.
Plus, he would have the luxury of being the man over there. He has more experience and better quality 4-3 play than what they have currently. Might be great for him.
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nah, Peppers took some criticism this offseason for wanting to go play OLB for a 3-4 team. OLB in 3-4 (on pass rush situations) is more of an equivalent to the DE in 4-3 I would say.
by scottbwalters on Oct 19, 2009 6:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples to Oranges
You can’t compare Dorsey to Peppers, Haynsworth or Freeney. Peppers and Freeney are 4-3 DE’s and Haynsworth is a 4-3 DT (Which is what Dorsey should probably be).
He is miscast as a 3-4 DE but someone mentioned in another post, that he was such a disruptive force in College, that he will adapt and eventually excell in this position. It will just take time, and we’d all agree he has made strides this year.
Week 7 Prediction:
Kansas City Chiefs 77 - San Diego Chargers 2
by craig in calgary on Oct 19, 2009 10:34 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
Good comments, Craig
When krayfish put those names up I thought they were all 4-3 guys, which would make the comparisons highly questionable if not invalid.
One thing I’ve read that I’m really starting to believe is that we are truly facing a pretty major rebuild. And that means we’re going to have to give new guys time to develop. I think the story about Dorsey’s weight gain and loss is a sign that he’s still got maturing to do. What I don’t want to see, but perhaps is inevitable, is to see the Chiefs cut someone who goes on to become a star elsewhere. I think Dorsey has shown solid improvement this year over last, and seems to be improving game-by-game this year.
I’m hoping to sit down and watch the games again either this week or the bye week and reevaluate.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
by Big Chief on Oct 19, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is improving for sure...
I don’t know why you can’t compare him to other people in the same position…it’s a different approach but the same end goal.
Look Ali fought with his hands down…a rule number one basic element of boxing is hands up…Ali didn’t fight that way. He did a lot of things unconventional in his day. That didn’t stop him from winning. So a different scheme within the same position shouldn’t stop him from havng good stats either.
He’s still a DE. I agree it does shift some of what he does compared to a 4-3. I know that and that’s why I said I didn’t need the stats to form my opinion. I have already felt that before this year. He WAS in a 4-3 last couple years and still had no accolades and still went unknown around the league for a reason.
Here again is another opportunity to MAKE up things that haven’t happened yet. That aren’t reality. Also I bet you’ll hear words like "playing fine’ Not doing a bad job…he’s okay..etc.
again all terms which point to mediocricy. I hope that clarifies me a little bit. I sometimes have problems relaying my intentions on line. No matter what we point to with Dorsey in particular, he has NO amazing stats at ANY point in his career in the NFL.
So until he does, what are we basing this all on?? What he DID in college?? What he could become?? What might be?? Again, it’s all make believe until it becomes reality. In either a 4-3 or a 3-4 irregardless, if your good at your position you should become well known around the league at some point.
I am just saying I don’t see superstar potential for him either way, but especially not in a 3-4. Hell I could be wrong, but even in other posts about him on here from people who adore him, it’s still things like "he’s fine " “he’s okay” “he’s not doing bad”…..see to me those aren’t accolades…those are accusations…great players never have things like that said about them…they get things said about them like “he’s at it again” , “he’s always awesome” “what a great draft pick, we sure lucked out” “another pro bowl year” “he’s our anchor” etc….
think about it for a minute…you ever hear anyone EVER say that about Dorsey?
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's a huge difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE
A 4-3 DE is supposed to control the end of the line on runs and pressure the QB. They typically are man up on the OT. They are supposed to make big plays. A 3-4 DE is not too different from a 4-3 DT. They are supposed to control their gap on the run, but they are usually getting more double teams than a 4-3 DE. So like a 4-3 DT they are supposed to occupy blockers and stay in their gaps allowing LBs to make plays. For this reason they are usually bigger than 4-3 DEs.
This is only Dorsey’s second season. He now has 22 NFL games behind him. It’s more common than not for a player (other than RB) to take some time to adjust to the NFL game. Unfortunately for Dorsey his second season has resulted in widespread changes and a new position for him. He’s not the typical physical type for a 3-4 DE. Nevertheless, he is making more plays than last year and seems to be playing better every game.
As for how well known he is, anyone who follows the draft will remember him because he was so highly rated in last years draft. Several pundits considered him the top defensive player coming out. I think there are teams out there that would be very interested in making a deal with KC to get him if they think Pioli is willing.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
by Big Chief on Oct 19, 2009 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1...
Big Chief. I think anyone has said Dorsey is an elite talent at this point in time. Your example of Haynesworth fails to mention that he struggled like Dorsey his first few years as well. I wouldn’t mind trading Dorsey and getting a good return, but your arguments are very weak. Dorsey’s problem is he can’t get leverage playing a 5-technique because of his height and wing-span. He is still getting some penetration, which for me is impressive due to his physical stature. I saw this kid play in college. Trust me, he will be star in the NFL. Maybe not for us though.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Oct 19, 2009 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dude, this whole sentence is wrong:
He’s still a DE. I agree it does shift some of what he does compared to a 4-3. I know that and that’s why I said I didn’t need the stats to form my opinion. I have already felt that before this year. He WAS in a 4-3 last couple years and still had no accolades and still went unknown around the league for a reason.
You say he was in a 4-3 last couple years – he has only been in the league for one year, this is his second. He is in his sophomore year, barely above a rookie, remember that.l
You say he has no accolades and went unknown around the league for a reason – before being drafted last year, he has tons of accolades and was the most sought after defensive lineman (some would say most sought after player, period) going into the draft.
You are comparing him with 4-3 players and say that “a different scheme within the same position shouldn’t stop him from havng good stats either” – clearly you don’t understand the differences in the same position between the different schemes. Please do some research on this area as well so you get a better understanding because you are comparing apples to oranges.
Also, you are comparing a second year player’s stats with veterans who have been in the league for several years – it takes about three years before a defensive lineman generally hits his stride. How about getting us some stats of comparing Dorsey with other second year defensive lineman and DEs around the league (specifically in the 3-4) so that you are comparing apples to apples.
Dorsey was drafted last year because everyone in the know in this business, even outside of KC saw that he had the potential to be the next Warren Sapp, so I would say that he is well-known around the league. A lot of people outside of the Chiefs organization are watching Dorsey to see how he progresses, and so far this season, given the scheme he plays in, and that this is only his SOPHOMORE season, he is doing a very good job so far. I expect that by midseason next year, he will be hitting his stride in full, and showing everyone why he WAS the most sought after defensive player in the 08 draft.
Hey, at least our punter is pretty good, so we got that goin for us, right?
by big_Scott on Oct 19, 2009 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dorsey is playing fine.
The DE end in 3-4 does not put up flashy stats and never will. He has played well, and will continue to improve. You also have to compare him to 3-4 DE. Here are the top 5 3-4 DE in the league.
Marques Douglas (NYJ)- 26 tackles, 0.5 sacks
Ty Warren (NE)- 23 tackles, 4.0 sacks
Glenn Dorsey (KC)- 22 tackles, 0 sacks
Brett Keisel (PIT)- 22 tackles, 0 sacks
Kenyan Coleman (CLE)- 19 tackles, 1 sack
One thing of note on the other 4 guys is that they play beside dominant NT (Jenkins, Wilfork, Hampton, and Rogers).
i think Dorsey has played very well considering the talent around him and the fact that he has played 6 games at that position. he will be fine, and will be our best lineman for the next several years.
by saskwatch on Oct 19, 2009 10:45 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Another important item to a 3-4 DE having good stats
is having a dominant rush LB or blitz scheme. The Chiefs don’t have that yet. I hope Hali continues to develop, but he’s clearly no D Thomas, which is the standard OLBs will be judged by here in KC. And I’ve not seen our scheme tax too many teams yet, though we’ll see if Pendergast can do it, or whether he doesn’t have the players to do it yet.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
by Big Chief on Oct 19, 2009 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
yah big chief...i wonder about that too
how much does pendergast play into the equation? I don’t know what to feel about pendergast in general anyway??
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And to add to that..
Marques Douglas (NYJ)- 9 years experience
Ty Warren (NE)- 7 years experience
Glenn Dorsey (KC)- 2 years experience (really, 6 games at position)
Brett Keisel (PIT)- 8 years experience
Kenyon Coleman (CLE)- 8 years experience
Considering how slowly DL players develop, I’m honestly very encouraged what Dorsey’s continued improvement could mean for the future of our defense.
by MadMattox on Oct 19, 2009 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Also add to that...
Ty Warren has largely been playing in a 4-3 as well which is why his sack number is a bit higher.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Oct 19, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no argument there madmattox
I hear you when you say “COULD” mean to our defense. The Chiefs are loaded with players that COULD be something special. I appreciate the optimism and I hope your absolutley correct.
Again though I have to restate this; this post is not about what might be, what could be, etc. It’s not about what someone did in college or any of that. It’s about right now, in front of your face reality. So, I don’t KNOW for sure anything either way, anymore than you or anyone else does for that matter.
I’m just a realist. Until I SEE those “could be’s” actually happen I don’t have anything else to go off of. It’s not a bash Dorsey post to be sure…I just don’t see him being anything special…
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it's about the present only, saskwatch's numbers are even more relevant.
Compared to players with whom Dorsey shares a role, he is tied for third best in the league, in the company of men who dwarf his experience.
COULD Dorsey be a super star if we traded him to a 4-3 team? Possibly. Will he be a superstar as a 3-4 DE? Maybe not. Could we get a superstar with the compensation we’d get for trading Dorsey? Doubtful. Would we be better RIGHT NOW by getting rid of him? Not a chance.
by MadMattox on Oct 19, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well I've already conceded that I didn't take that into consideration
comparing him to a 4-3. And AGAIN, I didn’t need those stats to form MY OPINION! It’s just my opinion and I’ve had it for a couple years with him now. It’s my opinion is all.
The whole 4-3 thing is duly noted. I appreciate the view point there..I hope sincerely that he becomes the superstar that he has this potential to be..
Just until he does…I won’t believe in what could be’s..it’s not in my nature. I watch the same team you do and I don’t see anyone except Vrable at the moment that could be considered “dominating” their position in the NFL.
You ought to at least hear Dorsey’s name once in awhile on a sports show if he was doing so great is my point. He can’t be all that awesome or we would hear about it and so would the rest of the league, but when you talk to other teams around the league (fans), they don’t even know who he is. Just stating some facts. doesn’t mean he won’t BECOME what you hope he will, cause I do too, just stating that he is NOT currently a dominant player at that position
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What's popular is not always what's right
How many players out there are vastly overrated because their name gets dropped every two seconds in the media? I think there are lots of players who are vital to their teams’ success that don’t get national media attention. Hell, since KC isn’t on the west or east coast, we’re lucky that ESPN even remembers we exist.
Also, I hope your idea that popularity = quality doesn’t extend to all areas of your life. Pretty much all of the Top 40 radio songs are crap week in and week out, Oprah’s Book Club books suck, and the #1 movie in America is frequently a formulaic cash grab.
by Soria's Unibrow on Oct 19, 2009 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lineman in a 3-4 are not going to get mentioned much
at least not like the guys in a 4-3. It’s not a position where a player is going to garner a lot of stats or publicity.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
by Big Chief on Oct 19, 2009 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
not sure where you got popularity as my life viewpoint
I think that went completely south of the topic personally..I even have a hard time still trying to figure out how you got there from here with the topic…
that said…I don’t care about his popularity equating to his quality.
I don’t know or even care how popular he is…but commentators and nfl network in particular have highlight shows…I just said that when you see those highlight films from every game…Dorsey doesn’t show up
but I think the whole 4-3 to 3-4 difference helps explain that…doesn’t sound like in a 3-4 unless your Seymour, you probably aren’t playing in a glory position to have a lot of spotlight…it’s a silent but all important position…so it’s a little clearer now actually.
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
when was the last time you heard any Chiefs in general during sportscenter?
Its highly unrealistic of you to think a 3-4 Defensive Tackle is going to be discussed at large on a 1-5 team. I dont mean to bash you at all but I read your comments and its pretty clear you dont understand how a 3-4 DE functions compared to a 4-3 DE. You shouldn’t compare Dorsey to Peppers and Freeney because he’s not that type of player. In this system he’s like a Darnell Dockett. I think he looks great and at this point he may be our best defensive lineman
by DBOWESHOW on Oct 19, 2009 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is a joke.
You have a fantasy football understanding of how to play the game. You base most of your argument on what you hear on TV! Of course youre not going to hear Dorseys name, he plays for the Chiefs, were 1-5. We play in Kansas City. ESPN and TV only cares about large market teams or relevant teams because thats what gets people to watch! aka Boston, Dallas, New York, Chicago, Minnesota, Saints. If the Chiefs were relevent, hed be mentioned.
And other teams should know about him, everyone considered him the BEST overall player coming out of college two years ago.
Learn how the game is played, and what each position is assigned to do in that scheme because you clearly dont based on how you compare a 4-3 DE to a 3-4 DE.
by KC_MO on Oct 19, 2009 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's exactly what the NFL draft is all about
When NFL teams draft a player, it is because of what that player COULD bring to the team. No single draft pick is a sure thing. Teams hope that the players turn out good or great for them, but in reality, it is what that player could be, as they obviously have never played in the NFL before. Dorsey was drafted last year, for crying out loud, how long do you think it takes draft picks to go from “could” to being sure of what you got right now? Most NFL analysts and executives say it takes about three years. It has been a little over one, you want to give the kid a chance?
Hey, at least our punter is pretty good, so we got that goin for us, right?
by big_Scott on Oct 19, 2009 10:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
are those solo or total combined sacks sakwatch? just curious?
I only posted solo efforts
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Tyson Jackson...
becomes the next Ty Warren, then he was completely worth the #3 overall pick.
by I_Bleed_Red. on Oct 19, 2009 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Admire your effort in posting this...But Dorsey is on pace to get more tackles then Richard Seymour ever did in a 3-4
but you cant compare him to 4-3 DEs based on sacks. Richard Seymour is the best 3-4 DE to ever play the game by far. There is only a couple people that can compar with him. I think the fact that Dorsey is going to break Richard Seymour’s career tackle record, says it all. He is THE BEST player on our team by far. He is getting double teamed most of the time and still is having his way stopping the run. Idk what you see in Dorsey that makes you think we wont miss him if he is traded but we would. Dorsey is the reason our Run Defense isnt 32nd in the league. He is the best 3-4 DE in our division and is on his way to being one of the best in the league. You say that your post is backed up by number but really it only backs up Dorsey’s case. The fact that he has 22 tackles with no truely good NT is more impressive then we give him credit for. I wouldnt be mad if we traded him as long as we got fair compensation for him. I think a 1st and a 3rd and then some would be fair. He is definitly one of the best young defensive players in the league.
Also, I always here this case that Dorsey would fit better in a 4-3 but I disagree. When he was coming out of LSU, Scouts even said he would fit better as a 3-4 DE. He is also playing better as an End then he ever did as a DT in a 4-3. I think all of the crap about he would fit better in a 4-3 is just another prediction by the media that is obviously not true. We cant keep trading our best players for picks. Thats is not how you build a Dynasty. You have to keep your best players.
by darwithabar on Oct 19, 2009 11:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You HAVE to give him time
At this pace Dorsey will end up with 37 solo tackles… Richard seymour never recorded more than 35 solos in a season
He is on pace for 59 total tackles this season Seymour hit 57 on year.
Yes his sack total is down but the most seymour got in a season was 8. His career average is 4.7 sacks / season. The reality is Dorsey will be fine as a 3-4 DE, give it some time he is on the right track.
by sandpro on Oct 19, 2009 11:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice...
Same thing I said posted at the same time…
by darwithabar on Oct 19, 2009 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If we could get a stud NT
This Defense would take a huge stride forward
by sandpro on Oct 19, 2009 11:17 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What about the Guppy?
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
by Lanier63 on Oct 19, 2009 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is he available?
I heard he’d bought a house in KC so it may be happening!
by ttownmikey on Oct 19, 2009 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree...
I think a NT and a Safety would make this a top 15 defense. Hell I think Casey Hampton would even work. If Terrence Cody fell to us with our first 2nd round pick then we take him. Otherwise, Get Vince Ogabosha (?) with our late 2nd rounder. Otherwise, get one in the 4th or 5th. I think another NT would allow Tank to become very solid depth for this line. I think he could back up Dorsey or the NT.
by darwithabar on Oct 19, 2009 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I personally you have to make a play at a NT and LB in free agency
Draft a safety and O linemen
by sandpro on Oct 19, 2009 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree with the post
Yeah, Dorsey’s not set the league on fire, didn’t make defensive ROY, but what’s your proposed deal that sends him out of KC to another team and actually improves KC? What do the Chiefs get back for giving up on a 2nd year player with a relatively low cap number for several years who’s started every game this year and was the among the first DL drafted in 2008? Check out the posts on the Detroit Lions blog that was linked on another AP post today: those guys were proposing low-ball compensation such as veteran cast-offs (Dante Culpepper? Sims at LB?), draft choices from third to fifth rounds, etc. Is that what you’re proposing? What Detroit players are going to ‘be studs’ or ‘EXCEL’ in the KC 3-4 defense?
Some other questions:
Do you think it’s smart for a 1st-year head coach to trade away one of his few talented prospects from the previous regime, when that player is demonstrably getting with ‘the program’ and improving his game from week to week? How does that affect the morale of other, similar young and talented players?
if you think that he will never have a significant role with a future, much-improved KC defense, why not allow Dorsey to improve his play throughout the season and maximize his trade value, then make a deal in the off-season if you can get better compensation?
If Detroit, or another team, won’t give up a current ‘stud’ for Dorsey, who are the ‘stud’ college players that you would draft and play next year and expect them to be BETTER then Dorsey will be next year? How sure are you that they will be available to KC in the draft with a pick that someone would give for Dorsey now?
Re excellence, notoriety in the league, etc.: How many All-Pro slots have gone to current DL’s from the reigning champ PIttsburgh Steelers? Hampton has had some recognition, but he’s been broken down a lot the last couple of years, and nearly ate himself out of the league. Why does a championship defense have to be filled with All-Pro’s? Is that even affordable in a league with spending caps? On the other hand, would you have predicted early in his second year that James Harrison would be an All-Pro, MVP and key link in Pittsburgh’s defense?
I think that frequently it takes two or three years for players to reach their full potential, that you NEVER have too many high-quality defensive linemen if you want to win a Super Bowl, and that there’s a lot of risk in assuming that you can draft a guy who will be better than Dorsey for the next ten years. I think that if Dorsey continues to improve the the team will find plenty of ways to use him to win games, even if his measureables are somehow not ideal for how you imagine 3-4 DE’s.
by Wheatboy74 on Oct 19, 2009 11:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
also tired:
the use of “stud” and “Detroit” in same sentence. they don’t have players to spare.
by ExtraMetal on Oct 19, 2009 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know wheatboy..
I do love cream of wheat though…top 10 cereal ever!!
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes...
… good cream of wheat is excellent, spice it up a bit and add some fruit.
by Wheatboy74 on Oct 19, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is all very interesting But...
Who is the replacement? Yeah Dorsey has great trade value right now but someone has to fill that spot and no one has come close to even pushing him for playing time. Unless your ready to throw the towel in and say we are only playing for draft position I’d kind of like a way to win a few games this year. The defense has improved and should continue to do so, however if you are just going to trade away the players we need to grow the defense with then who are you going to replace them with…next years draft choices?
Yes we can get some draft choices out of him, but how many of those will work out? How many will become starters? and still Who is going to fill that position? Answer these questions and then tell me about the trade we should make.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!
by KC Fanatic on Oct 19, 2009 11:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
There is no room to move him now..
If Magee was further along then you could make a case but at this time the Chiefs cannot make a move. They need to continue to add talent to this D line not take the best D lineman on the team away.
by sandpro on Oct 19, 2009 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
forgot about Magee...
has he gotten any consistent play time this year? I wish I had his highlights to see from this year ya’ know? I hear they like him a lot…so we’ll see…I forgot all about him to be honest.
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
kc fan...
I don’t have any answers….those are great questions…I would think the only sensible thing is a decent veteran to replace him, but not even sure about that at this point.
It would only make sense if we really get something of value for him and I don’t know anymore what that would even mean…so I just don’t know…
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have a hard time seeing the point in this...
When you have a guy who is in his second year, you have MILLIONS of dollars investested and almost two years of development, why would you WANT to trade him??? What are you going to do, trade him for another high-medium draft pick just to wait 2 more years for him to develop, only to watch your old guy turn into a superstar on another teams roster? Makes no sense to me.
As far as Dorsey not fitting as a 3-4 DE, that argument doesn’t wash with me either. I know he doesn’t have the height of most 3-4 DEs BUT, his reach is the same of most guys who are 5-6 inches taller than him so, he actually gets the same amount of leverage as guys who are 6’6" or so. And, he is as strong as a bull.
Dorsey is showing why we drafted him finally! Now would be a TERRIBLE time to work out a trade for him. If Pioli traded him now, I would REALLY have to question whether or not he has the teams best interest in mind. He and T-Jax are going to be the core of this defense and, in a year or two, they will most likely be known as one of the stoutest 3-4 lines in the game. This is one area where I think it best to just be patient. We have the talent there but, it will be a while yet before we see them at their best.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 19, 2009 12:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love dorsey but at the same time
Is this guy going to accomplish what we are looking to do. If herm edwards was roaming the sidelines i would have no problem with keeping dorsey he has improved and is looking awsome i have to admit . But is he the answer to our problems. Im not sure. I really think we should trade Dorsey but at the same time the compensation has to be right. and im not sure we will get a bargain for him. SO im a little in between I guess I would have to go back on what i originally said in the beggining of the season . IN PIOLI I TRUST. HES WORKING THE PHONES HE HAS THE TEAM IN HIS HANDS HE HAS A VISION HE’S THE ONLY ONE THAT KNOWS. I would have to figure that dorsey is not the right fit for what he is looking for . And my guess is that we would be aiming for another d lineman in the draft a nose tackle or a d end its just the truth.
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
by sexassassin on Oct 19, 2009 12:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I really hope we don't spend another 1st rd pick on the D-line.
We either need to acquire a STELLAR O-lineman or a weapon for Cassel in the 1st round. Maybe even a kick ass safety but, I swear, I do not want to see another D-lineman in the first round again. We also should REALLY be looking to upgrade the RB position very soon. Our current guys are NOT getting it done.
Let’s see some offense getting improved in the draft for once.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 19, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just about to write something very similar
If we go defense in the 1st round, I really want Berry or Mays. I think those guys are going to be stars at the safety position. I would really rather have us draft OL early, like Okung from OK St. and then get a WR with one of our 2nd round picks. RBs are a dime a dozen and we should get one of those in the 4th or 5th. We could also use more talent at LB, maybe use the other 2nd rounder or a 3rd on that.
Honestly, I wouldn’t even be mad if we drafted three OL in a row.
by Soria's Unibrow on Oct 19, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
here's my input soria's
I agree…nothing is more important right now than a great offensive line…that changes everything else…we can get a slightly above average rb and if he has huge holes to run through he’ll be just fine.
Cassel would improve dramatically and the defense would stay off the field and be rested…good point..
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I wonder about Berry and Mays is...
… whether partly why they look so great is that they play in systems coached by guys who are highly experienced and successful former NFL-level head coaches and/or defensive coordinators, and— granted that their individual measurables are excellent— these two benefit greatly from the schemes the coaches have designed for them. Perhaps part of the reason they are ‘head and shoulders’ above other college safeties is that superior coaching ends up putting them in the right place at the right time more often. I think the overall defensive scheme is something you have to take into consideration heavily when you grade college safeties and project them to a pro career.
by Wheatboy74 on Oct 19, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No doubt that coaching has helped them both
That’s a very good point. I think it would be fun to draft one of them and then build our defense around ballhawking DBs who can get turnovers forced by the pass rush. Also, if we get Berry or Mays, both of those guys can obliterate a ballcarrier. They’ll force incomplete passes and knock the ball loose with their hitting alone. And they’re fast, too, which can help correct rookie positioning mistakes. Not to mention that both can play the run as well, though I think Mays is better at it while Berry is better in coverage.
Like I said though, ideally we’ll draft OL anyway.
by Soria's Unibrow on Oct 19, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Berry and Mays are different
Tenn. was actually known more for putting out raw talent with questionable technique under their previous staff. Now that Monte Kiffin is their D Coordinator I’m sure Berry is getting great coaching, but last year when he had such a great year, I’m not sure that was the case.
Mays on the other hand does have NFL calliber coaching at USC. That is why I would much rather have Berry. Despite the coaching and talent around him Mays is still seen as someone who gets bye by using his “freakish” physical talents. Where as Berry is seen to be the “smarter” player who has “freakish” instincts when it comes to both the run and pass. That’s the kind of guy I want quarterbacking my defense (a la Ed Reed).
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
by KCporkchop on Oct 19, 2009 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What is Mays first name porkchop?
mmmm porkchops…and donuts…
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 5:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Taylor
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
by KCporkchop on Oct 21, 2009 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I too favor Berry..
He is much better in coverage and cover the run too… Mays is good at stopping the run but is average at best in coverage
by darwithabar on Oct 19, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
LT would be the best way to go in the 1st rd...
Albert has not been that great BUT, he would be one of the best LGs in the league. Okung would be a great pick. Move Albert to Waters’ spot and then have Waters move to the right side and draft a center in the late 2nd round with the Gonzalez pick. I think O’Call is doing a pretty good job at RT and may be a decent long term answer with some playing time under his belt. He’s young and big and has pretty good technique from what I can tell. Ndukwe can be groomed to play at the RG spot after BW retires and Rudy could be kept on as an interior backup.
Our line could become the strength of the team in one offseason and we could do it using only 2 of our draft picks.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 19, 2009 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree that more talent at RB is needed
But also agree with Unibrow that RB’s not a good strategy with a top 5 or top 10 First Round slot, which is almost certainly where KC will end up next draft. Re O-line I’d only take a left tackle that high, so unless you’re moving Albert it seems low probability (especially if we are closer to top 5 than top 10).
I argued last week that we were likely to get ‘boxed in’ with a top 5 slot and best value was probably going to end up being another DL, that a safety is less likely but still possible, and at a LT means next year Cassel tries to survive another season with a rookie LT. I’m a fanatic for DL depth and feel that if we have to pick up another big dollar rookie contract, then putting the money into the line is OK for this team. If the draft is QB heavy then maybe someone later in the first round gets the hots for Bradford or another, is willing to trade up… then all bets are off, we would have a lot more flexibility.
by Wheatboy74 on Oct 19, 2009 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There is no top 5 talent at RB this year anyway
Not to mention that if you can take a tackle in he top 5 you should. A very good college tackle can move down to become a great NFL guard. Also if we can find a true LT we could move Albert down to LG and Waters to Center. I am beginning to think the first 3 picks should be O linemen. This line is just plain B-A-D.
by sandpro on Oct 19, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd have to agree with you that...
… the overall strategy for building the OL will mostly determine the Chief’s first round pick.
But it’s going to matter very much that Okung grade out at least as good as the two DL guys from Oklahoma and Nebraska— moving Albert and Walters only works out if Okung is a significant upgrade NOW, not two years from now, over Albert at LT, AND if Walters plays good for a couple more years. If not, then you end up spending a VERY high pick on a guy who doesn’t not make a significant difference in the overall LT play for a year or two…. when you could have instead used the 1st round slot to pick a DL stalwart who would play for you 8-10 years, and drafted OL guards and centers in later rounds.
by Wheatboy74 on Oct 19, 2009 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's my FEELING too SA..
I don’t know it’s just my gut says that for some reason, HE is not the guy that is our long term solution. At least not to Pioli anway.
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 12:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apples to Oranges
All those guys play in a 4-3. I dont have a lot of time to dig into this, but I will expand on this later. I want to see how Dorsey’s numbers compare to those players in their second year, and really this is Dorsey’s rookie year at end. I will try and expand on this tonight a little… Unless someone beats me to it. Im also curious if there is stats on how many snaps these players play per game, so we can take a cumulative stat and turn it into a rate stat. Also its not the job of D-lineman to get sacks in a 3-4. Having said that its not like our LBers are racking up the numbers. You really need one explosive dynamic LBer to make plays out of the 3-4.
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Oct 19, 2009 12:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I dont know man..
i seen him come of the corner with some power yesterday, i say give him another year. His upside is great if he stays in shape (Haley’s conditioning Camp), and gets some swagger with his ol team mate beside him (Jackson).
by Sea of RED on Oct 19, 2009 12:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Could be a McGlocklin or a N. Smith...
remember he was rated the best overall player coming out of that draft class…
by Sea of RED on Oct 19, 2009 12:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Gotta disagree
Dorsey has not even completed a full 2nd season of his career and he gets compared to the likes of Freeney, Haynesworth, and Peppers.
And he’s playing in a new system, and actually being coached as he hopefully should be instead of relaxing under Herm’s 7th-grade P.E. conditioning program.
This is so not a fair comparison.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
by ArrowSpread on Oct 19, 2009 1:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
who compares him to those guys? I been looking for that..could you post a link?
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You compared them. I said it was an unfair comparison.
Dorsey only has those SOLO tackles going for him. He has zero sacks. No FF’s. No int’s and 1 penalty against him thus far. So overall, very very average stats compared to the following;
Freeney has only 9 solo tackles, but he has SIX sacks already….SIX.
Haynesworth has 12 solo with 2 sacks.
Peppers 18 solo with FIVE sacks.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
by ArrowSpread on Oct 19, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
tks primus...I was joking with him...but
we are still a bit tender at times…we won’t be next year though.
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ahh yes...there we go again...
pointing out the truth….cease with that arrowspread..hey that’s a pretty cool name..if I was an Indian girl ….that would be my name!!
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's the stats I'd like to see
how many fanposts do you make per week?
Welcome to Chiefs REBUILD - Version 2.0 /The Clark Hunt Edition
Chiefs will be lucky to go 4-12 in 2010
by KansasCityShuffle on Oct 19, 2009 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Oh my shuffle
How many hateful comments do you make a week? Hug it out.
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
by woodman212 on Oct 19, 2009 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hateful?
Child, please
Welcome to Chiefs REBUILD - Version 2.0 /The Clark Hunt Edition
Chiefs will be lucky to go 4-12 in 2010
by KansasCityShuffle on Oct 19, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was supposed to sound like a mommy...
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
by woodman212 on Oct 19, 2009 11:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know but you can count them if you like shuffler!!
I think Shufflers mom was in American Pie the movie right? oh yah…shefflers mom!! Got it!!
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 5:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Can't compare 4-3 DEs to 3-4 DEs...
Don't forget to be an AP-vangelist...Tell A Friend...
by woodman212 on Oct 19, 2009 2:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
One thought on Dorsey
If he hadn’t put on so much weight and played so poorly, would Pioli have gone after Magee in the third round? I think Magee’s selection may be totally an indication of concern about Dorsey. If he’s in better shape would Pioli have gone after an O lineman in round 3 instead? I’m glad Dorsey is looking more like the player Herm saw when he drafted him, but he may have cost us an O lineman.
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
by Big Chief on Oct 19, 2009 5:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Follow Up
Dwight Freeney ’s first 2 years
Year 1
16 Games 8 GS 13 Sacks 9 FF 1 PD 45 Tackles
Year 2
15 Games 13 GS 11 Sacks 4 FF 1 PD 28 Tackles
Albert Haynesworth
Year 1
16 Games 3 GS 1 Sack 0FF 3 PD 21 Tackles
Year 2
12 Games 11 GS 2.5 Sacks 0FF 4 PD 21 Tackles
Julius Peppers
12 Games 12 GS 12 Sacks 5FF 6PD 29 Tackles
16 Games 16 GS 7 Sacks 3FF 3PD 39 Tackles
Mario Williams
16 Games 16GS 4.5 Sacks 1FF 4PD 35 Tackles
16 Games 16GS 14 Sacks2FF 1PD 43 Tackles
Dorsey
16 Games 16GS 1 Sack 1FF 1PD 32 Tackles
6 Games 6 GS 0 Sack 0 FF 1 PD 14 Tackles
Dorsey is on pace for 37 Tackles and 3 PD. Since he has no sacks yet he doesn’t project to have any.
He gets as many tackles as any of those guys did their first two years. And Dorsey is learning a new position this year, so to expect him to get better is not that far fetched. Freeney and Peppers were freaks their first 2 years Mario was slow in his first year, and again none of these guys play in the 3-4 where the linemans job is to create lanes for the Linebackers.
His numbers are very similar to Richard Seymour who played in a 3-4 with a few less sacks. Dorsey was a DT last year
Richard Seymour
13 Games 10 GS 3 Sacks 0 FF 1 PD 25 Tackles
16 Games 16 GS 5.5 Sacks 0 FF 3 PD 33 Tackles
Dorsey is going to be fine.
GS = Games Started, FF = Forced Fumbles PD = Passes Defensed
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Oct 19, 2009 6:51 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I don't care for your stats. I go by what my own eyes tell me.
by NotAHippie on Oct 19, 2009 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe you should apply for the
assistant to the general manager position for the Royals
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Oct 19, 2009 11:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm woefully underqualified.
Which means i’m perfect for the job!
by NotAHippie on Oct 19, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Acknowledging your faults makes your a better candidate than the one you have
are you opposed to reading about advanced defensive metrics?
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Oct 19, 2009 11:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This looks like a good place
To once again revisit my post about Dorsey compared to all the DT’s who were All Pro for about the last 20 years. His numbers stack up well, and you are nuts to even think about giving up on a talent like this when it takes time to develop a DL. He will be fine here and looks like he “gets it” and sounds like Haley really is starting to like him a lot.
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
by Zodeman on Oct 21, 2009 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the link to the post
I don’t know why it didn’t show up but here it is http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2009/6/27/927352/the-dorsey-thing-again
Chiefs go 9-7. LJ makes 1400 yards. DBowe makes 1200 yards. Defense #18.
by Zodeman on Oct 21, 2009 10:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's good shit gatsby...
thanks guys….that helps a lot actually…I feel much better about Dorsey now!!
by krayfish on Oct 19, 2009 7:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
yeah....
Dorsey was every bit as good as Haynesworth in his first season. I dont think he will ever be a sack monster at DE, but 3-4 DE’s dont usually do that. If he can continue to get tackles and create the occasional crease for a linebacker to shoot I will be happy. Keep in mind in 3-4 defenses linebackers get all the sacks, think Merriman (of course that is the Merriman of a few years ago) and the beast in Dallas that Im forgetting, not to mention all the great pass rushing linebackers that have come out of Pittsburgh.
Of course ideally I would rather have 25 sacks spread out over 4 linebackers than 20 sacks to one linebacker and 5 to the other 3. That way you never know where its coming from.
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Oct 19, 2009 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ummm
1)
Freeney has only 9 solo tackles, but he has SIX sacks already….SIX.
Haynesworth has 12 solo with 2 sacks.
Peppers 18 solo with FIVE sacks.
Why do people always ignore the huge differences in roles between a 4-3 DE and a 3-4 DE? and why did you even include Melon-Stomper on this list? He’s a DT…
2)
Those guys are so good that they completely change the face of the defense for the team they play for. Look at the Titans. Their defense is HORRIBLE this year without Haynesworth. So now we KNOW for sure that all those other guys he made look good, aren’t as good as we thought they were. He’s just that amazing.
That is some fallacious reasoning right there…you don’t “KNOW” jack “for sure” – there are eleventy things wrong with the Titans, and losing Haynesworth is just one piece.
Ryan Succop will be the kicker for the AFC in the 2011 Pro Bowl
by PVChiefsfan on Oct 22, 2009 7:34 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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