Todd Haley's Demotion of Receivers Coach No Big Deal
From the FanPosts. I moved everything after the jump because part of what makes soybon's post so great is for the formatting, which doesn't translate very well on the front page. -Chris
Check out soybon's post, after the jump.
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I have a large respect and appreciation for fans that contribute to AP. However, there is an idea going around that Haley's moves with his coaches is somehow a sign that he is "having trouble managing his coaching staff". I was really bothered by this notion, moreso than those I typically disagree with so I decided to post about it. This move in no way signals Haley's inability to manage his staff. In fact, I think it illustrates quite the opposite. Shuffling these guys around as needed to generate production is what management is all about. Besides, I disagree with the premise; I hardly even see this a management issue altogether, I see it as a staffing issue. When you say trouble managing his coaches, the immediate implication of "trouble managing" is that there is turmoil, disobedience, recalcitrance, etc. Instead of seeing this as Haley "managing his staff," I see it more as Haley "staffing his management." I.e. these position coaches are mid-low level managers of the players. After reading several comments, I did a little bit of digging and uncovered a story in the New York Times dated Oct. 22 1999, almost 10 years ago exactly... Recall that Haley was appointed receivers coach in January of that year. In October he was demoted because of a lack of production from the receivers. The Jets were better for the move. Ultimately, Haley was reinstated and was better for it as he continued to improve his performance as a positions coach and development for coaching in general. This just goes to show a move such as this at this point in the season is not rare and is no way an indication of trouble. I don't think anybody would suggest that Parcells was having trouble managing his staff. |
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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50 comments
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Comments
Rec'd
Nice research, soybon. And I like this line: Instead of seeing this as Haley “managing his staff,” I see it more as Haley “staffing his management.”
From 99-00 to the Jets went from 28th to 6th in passing yards.
by Joel Thorman on Oct 16, 2009 5:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the Jets did that?
From 99-00 to the Jets went from 28th to 6th in passing yards
would be nice if the Chiefs could jump like that … running AND passing
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
by upamtn on Oct 16, 2009 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DOH! And they did it when they demoted Haley!
What's THAT tell ya?
Is there a “being facetious” tag?
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 16, 2009 10:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a couple years i think everyone is going to be very thankful he got Haley as our HC
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 16, 2009 5:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey Red...
I have to be honest…When we first hired Todd Haley… I was not very happy…
Even though we are at an 0-5 record…I am very impressed with Coach Haley. I hope that in a couple of years the new management will have built a long-term winner.
WE lost to WHO?
by Cowboynchrist on Oct 16, 2009 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Soybon
Nice to hear from you :) Rec
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 16, 2009 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good job and good points.
Yeah, let's just keep matriculatin' the ball down the field, boys! ...
by oldchiefsfan on Oct 16, 2009 8:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yah excellent job man.
And whoever put up that post where Haley stopped Whisenhunt from interrupting Fitz because he knew Fitz was talking to his mama thank you.
You gave me a reset button push on my thinking. I was wrong. I am negative about Haley and it’s not constructive in any way. I haven’t given the most passionate coach since Marty even half a chance to learn his way into this job.
He cares. A LOT! I believe in him again. Articles like this one and that one, are needed from time to time, to help with our attitudes.
Thanks man.
by krayfish on Oct 16, 2009 9:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What was the name of the post your referring to on Haley and Whisenhunt?
I would like to read it, thanks.
by casselreadychiefs on Oct 23, 2009 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My only regret is...
I have but on REC to give…
WE lost to WHO?
by Cowboynchrist on Oct 16, 2009 9:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Rec’d.
Very nice job. I don’t have much else to add to it.
by JComp11 on Oct 16, 2009 9:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
grrrr slow day huh chiefs fans? how yall coping? lol
by kcchiefsfan56 on Oct 16, 2009 9:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thats intresting...
What are you a detective? 1999?
by darwithabar on Oct 16, 2009 10:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm drunk
Wooooooo boobies!
Yay mobile comenting!
Do you damn yanks do Jag Bombs? Cuz they are good times.
Week 6 Prediction:
Kansas City Chiefs 77 - Washington Redskins 2
by craig in calgary on Oct 16, 2009 10:32 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
What kind of question is that? Of course. O Bombs are good times as well. Wish I didn’t have to work in the morning I’d be enjoyin some myself.
by JComp11 on Oct 16, 2009 10:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
irish carb bombs......
that’s the way to go
by callmesir on Oct 16, 2009 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty good. If you want to get really F’d up go for a liquid cocaine or two.
by JComp11 on Oct 16, 2009 11:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calgayr boys usually stick to prairie fires,
a mans drink.
by Ben S on Oct 17, 2009 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A prairie fire is nothing compared to liquid cocaine.
by JComp11 on Oct 17, 2009 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I prefer sake bombs....
especially when poured by that hot damn bartender at kansas city live during my trip….yumm ;)
by HeatherChiefsLvr on Oct 19, 2009 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Irony
Oh the irony! While being a Chiefs fan for 40 years the only other team I have been fan longer of is ND. If ole cheeseburger Charlie don’t beat USC or give em a hell of a run for their money, Weis may be available for an OC job!
Now there you would have Parcells Inc.!
Touchdown Jesus better be smiling on Charlie in just a few hours. You guys want to talk about some idiot coaches……… Faust, Davie, Willingham, etc. Yhank God the ND brass isn’t quite as forgiving as Lamar Hunt was at times.
I’ll be there and it would be a perfect world to me if Charlie got sent packing and was to be the next KC OC. He seems to do better in the upstairs box than he does on the sideline.
by DFisr722 on Oct 16, 2009 10:58 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I'd like ND to retain charlie as an OC
and hire someone else to be the head coach… maybe he should just voluntarily do that… The guy is a great recruiter, I’d hate to see ND lose him.
by callmesir on Oct 16, 2009 11:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cheeseburger Charlie
He does recruit well and is great talking the talk, it’s the walking the walk that’s the problem. He has had 5yrs and can’t win A big one, and with the recruits he gets it isn’t like he is being asked to make water into wine.
by DFisr722 on Oct 18, 2009 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It strikes me that it depends on what school of thought you're from.
I don’t think military guys (and we have a lot of ‘em, here) have much respect for this kind of shuffling around, and, to some in the media, as well, the demotion of Gailey was a sign of an organization in disarray. Heard that, today. This kind of shuffling things around is what you do when you’re in “revision” mode. And it’s NOT a sign of an organization in disarray. It’s a sign of an offensive unit that isn’t very good, and an organization that’s willing to make change when what’s happening isn’t working.
Haley never (publicly) blamed Gailey for that, but Gailey was something that COULD be changed, and NObody should be very secure until the Chiefs start winning, and if they wanna KEEP winning, it should STILL be a meritocracy, where being good LAST year has nothing to do with how you’re being assessed THIS year.
I have some military veterans as students in the math classes I teach, and they oftentimes struggle with my approach to learning. To them, the emphasis is all on getting it RIGHT the first time, when learning is (ugh!) a process that only works if you’re willing to try and fail a few times. I’m more of an academic, so I’m USED to just roughing something in (i.e. 1st draft), then polishing it, tearing out chunks and putting in chunks, polishing some more, until I have a finished product. This approach is foreign to a lot of people. A good carpenter would be APPALLED by such an attitude. You can’t be tearin’ out the cabinets after you put ’em in your kitchen.
But that’s the way learning works, and good learners waste a lot of paper. These days I have to tell my students that it’s stupid to save trees by using less paper in school. The idea is to get a good job, make some money, and plant a hundred trees! Heh.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 16, 2009 10:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Weelllll.... You know...
Actually…Your pretty accurate on your estimation of military folk. I have been in 12 years…Which sometimes sounds like a long time..and to others its a person who has barely got their ears wet.
I am an instructor for the military. I teach both an job training and leadership training. The thing I try to teach/tell my students is that there is more than one way to get things done. Now, I also tell them there are limitations. Doing things right (i.e. shortcuts that break integrity of the project) and do them within the letter of the law.
The other things I have always told my soldiers is this. I give people a year before I try to make a final determination where I stand. My opinion is slowly and hopefully purposely formed. I think Coach Haley is very willing to make mistakes in order to be successful. I like the fact that he knows where he is going but willing to make adjustments on the way.
Successful Generals and Leaders have learned that those adjustments are the difference between victory and defeat.
WE lost to WHO?
by Cowboynchrist on Oct 17, 2009 6:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grammar...
Ok..too many grammar and spelling mistakes here but you get the picture..
Note to self: The preview button is there for a reason.
WE lost to WHO?
by Cowboynchrist on Oct 17, 2009 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't sweat the grammar unless it interferes with the sense.
This isn’t an English class.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 24, 2009 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm resenting the pundits a bit, right now.
Saying there’s no way the offense will be any good, because you fired/demoted your offensive coordinator makes a great sound bite, and it’ll fall in line with the facts, when the offense almost certainly WILL struggle. The fact that the offense has problems is why the coordinator was demoted. The problems on offense preceded any fallout from a coaching change.
It’s like sayin’ a guy is a shitty runner because of that stupid cast on his leg, when the guy’s wearin’ the cast because the leg is broke! It’s the busted leg that’s the problem, not the treatment.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 16, 2009 11:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the biggest issue,
with moving staffing around like he has, has been the timing of it all. It was NOT good timing to fire you’re OC 2 weeks before the season started. Generally, doing something like that, is an indication, that there isn’t a clear focus or goal. Rather, it’s a last ditch effort. You have no idea what else to do, so you think demoting a guy will help motivate your team/coaching staff, it rarely works in buisness, and I doubt it will work here. I think at the outset, there were clear goals and objectives, hopefully, that included winning ballgames, but obviously, the path that they’re taking isn’t going to work quickly, these kinds of moves, tell me they expected to win quickly. I think Haley is in a bit over his head, and last ditch efforts, just because it worked for parcells (who is by far and away a better coach) doesn’t mean it will do anything for haley and the 2009 chiefs.
by callmesir on Oct 16, 2009 11:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You can spin it that way, if it pleases you to make negative judgements on everything Haley.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 17, 2009 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see it as any kind of spin.....
I think it’s a pretty clear cut situation, just because parcells made an example out of him 10 years ago in some kind of motivational ploy, doesn’t mean that it isn’t a desperation move. They’ve all run out of ideas, so now lets demote someone to get people’s attention again… it’s another silly childish ploy by Haley.
by callmesir on Oct 17, 2009 2:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yup. You're spinnin' it.
At 0-5, there’s probably some desperation in it. But you’re definitely spinning it into soap opera territory.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 17, 2009 2:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what IS going on then
He’s using it as a motivational tool???? I guess he decided to demote one of the few guys doing their job… if there is a bright spot on this team it’s been QB and WR play….. how about we demote pendergast and our oline coach if it’s anything performance based.
He and his braintrust were sitting around thinking… hey, we’ve tried everything we can to change attitudes and losing cultures. What else can we do here? Any ideas? anyone?…. Hey remember that one time parcells demoted you and the team started playing better??? maybe we should do that…..
by callmesir on Oct 17, 2009 2:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You seriously think that shuffling guys around is considered desparation?
I think you’re reading a lil too deep into it, man. If guys aren’t workin, guys aren’t workin. When players are cut when they aren’t working out is a desparation? The shit happens… get over it. It’s going to take some time to figure out what works and what doesn’t.
You like to bring up how to run a business constantly, so you must think that a business that has been failing for a handful of years gets turned around in one. Take that negative shit elsewhere.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
by ArrowSpread on Oct 17, 2009 3:37 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
before you start personal attacks
I mentioned one time what my job was in response to people assuming that I had no managment experience…. That aside….
How many other ball clubs do you see doing silly crap like this…. is it really going to make any difference? None of us would probably know this happened if it hadn’t been reported. I hardly think our recievers coach is the issue. I’m not trying to make a big deal out of this, because frankly it won’t do anything….. It just seems a little silly. They’ve run out of ideas on the field, so lets try something off the field… hey at least they recognize there is a problem and they’re trying to do SOMETHING about it.
by callmesir on Oct 17, 2009 3:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yea, sorry bout that
Took a bad loss in Madden and turned to the Henney for comfort.
"The first step to penetration... must not be lateral"
-Confucius, in contrary to Glenn Dorsey lining up in the 2-tech
by ArrowSpread on Oct 17, 2009 9:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It could be
I don’t know something about the WR running a 8 yard pattern when we need 10 for the first down. Have seen that Way too many times so far. Or it could be the WR’s failing to get any separation, or even running bad routes, All of which have been major issues this season. But since you have already made up your mind that everything that goes wrong this season is Haley’s fault it doesn’t matter. You have closed your mind to anything new ths there is no point in trying to enlighten you.
is it me? or isn't about time the Lamar Hunt trophy belonged to His team?
I’m a Chiefs fan Dammit and I’m damn proud of it!
by KC Fanatic on Oct 19, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
certainly none of those things can be blamed on playcalling
or the players themselves….. come on… enlighten me? I think you’re taking my dislike of Haley’s performance a little too far… I’m just saying this move does absoloutley nothing… it’s a knee jerk, desperation move from someone who has run out of ideas…
by callmesir on Oct 19, 2009 11:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
When there's a safety and a pair of LBs SITTING at the first down marker,
you’re left with underneath or over top. No time for over top. So it’s on the WR to eke out the last couple yards with his feet.
I will say, though, that KC appears to be getting better at piercing that barrier for the longer shot. But the key is to cut down the number of 3rd ‘n’ longs in the first place.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 24, 2009 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice job soybon!
Winning begins with Attitude - Haley and Pioli will be winners in KC!
I'll forever be a Chiefs fan! Only God himself could take that away from me, but when I get to my great reward, I'll rejoin two bigger fans, my Mom and Dad.
by Lanier63 on Oct 16, 2009 11:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Im wondering
and this is indeed off topic…
but I noticed when Gaines Adams was dealt to chicago, the bucs took a 15 mil hit, a hit the team needed to take, or at least could take
the chiefs MUST spend quite a bit by the end of the year. Basically looking at our roster, there arent any players worth locking up long term…and there arent any FA’s that would eat that kind of space.
Maybe…with Kolby Smith coming off PuP after the skins game…maybe KC dumps LJ, and or DJ for performance AND cap reasons…Not like this is an original thought, but since they have till tuesday, it makes a LOT of sense for the chiefs to do this to spend that certain amount of cash
As for the staff, haley got a late start, this is overlooked by many…this also took place during the draft with the scouting department…Ultimately Coaches MUST be held accountable, and if you can demote a guy, while keeping him around, why not do that? its not different than giving a player a chance to start over another…no one is safe, sure one could then say what about Haley…there has to be a person in charge, I still believe this staff is about 2/3 done in terms of what we will see in 2010
by SDChief on Oct 17, 2009 12:18 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Haley has done a lot of things reminiscent of other coaches.
From demoting coaches to pulling coaches off the field. I may not agree with everything he does. But there is one thing I am certain of about Haley, that no one wants to win more than him.
Desperately hoping for Desperate Measures
by averagegatsby on Oct 17, 2009 10:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
If anything, the moves say he doesn't care how it looks.
You’re admitting you made a mistake when you shuffle staff this way, but better to admit the mistake and move forward than to continue to struggle just to save face.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 17, 2009 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
player demotions
perhaps if todd haley was held as accountable for his actions asmuch as the chiefs players are he wouldn`t be in position to continue his on the job traing as an nfl head coach
by bubster66064 on Oct 17, 2009 4:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
this is an ignorant statement
Unlike Herm, Haley has certainly cast blame upon himself and commonly states that it all ultimately falls on him. NFL coaches typically get no more than 3 years to prove they’re on the right road. Haley will be absolutely be held accountable by his bosses. But, the nature of his position is that it will be at the end of the year and the next and the next. You can’t hold a HEAD coach accountable by demoting him this week or that week. Get a clue.
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
by kabrink on Oct 17, 2009 8:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
try ing to do too much
with it obvious that our new head coach is learning on the run perhaps he has taken on too much responsibility in trying to call plays and coach the whole team at once…with the economy the way it is coach if you want to do it all lets save some money and get rid of some assistants ….or better yet let them do what they are paid to do
and coach without being intimidated by you…i mean what have you done successfully lately???
by bubster66064 on Oct 17, 2009 4:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
wow.
It is a very legitimate debate as to whether Haley should be doing all the roles he is. I’m on board with that. But, I think it’s fine for him to be adding coaches, firing coaches, moving coaches, whatever he feels it takes to improve the operation and performance of the team.
However,
what have you done successfully lately???is an absurd statement. Heck, I don’t know, he took a team to the Superbowl? He IS improving this team, he IS (trying) instilling mental discipline, he IS instilling a culture of physical fitness and toughness. This team IS getting better in my opinion but it still suffers a talent deficit resulting from years of neglect that NOBODY could fix in one off season.
Give the guy some realistic time will ya?
Air Cassel - approved for takeoff
by kabrink on Oct 17, 2009 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
A reunion
Seriously, I have given the Haley/Weis pairing a little more thought. This guy is damn good on offense and would free Haley to focus on tweaking other areas. They both went to the U of Big Tuna, Weis is already rich courtesy of ND, and could prolly be arranged for him to work for unlimited KC BBQ and a supply of wet knaps.
Give him talented players Claussen/Cassel & Tate/Bowe and he can generate some serious offense. If anything was learned over the last few years (Vermeil) it’s that your defense can be iffy if you still score more than the other team does. That is where you spend your money first, putting points on the board.
I know I’m prolly in fantasyland here but, it seems like a believable dream. Guess we have to see if ND gets by Boston College next Sat. If not I’m sure Charlie will be needing the services of Mayflower. One more thing, one of my greates KC memories is sitting in the old Arrowhead club, slurping a 7&7 or three, watching Joe Montana do his pre-game warm ups behind the glass at Arrowhead.
Never will forget that trip. My first time at Arrowhead, a beautiful fall day, great seats, Arrowhead club passes, and that damn delicious BBQ. I had to drive like a madman to catch my flight as well as hold on to my buddy’s belt as he leaned out the door of a rented cadillac while spewing Bacardi & Coke all over the countryside. We still howl with laughter remembering that trip.
Ganite
by DFisr722 on Oct 18, 2009 2:28 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Marty started with the defense.
And that worked about as well as Vermeil’s unfinished plan. Vermeil’s team never turned the corner on D and Marty’s never turned the corner on O.
No question. Otis Taylor should be in the Hall of Fame.
by hmills110 on Oct 24, 2009 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

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