The Truth and Myth of the Chiefs "Right 53"
by KCporkchop on Oct 14, 2009 9:09 AM CDT
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via Kansas City Star
From the FanPosts -Joel
We've heard a lot about how the Kansas City Chiefs are trying to find the "Right 53" players ever since Scott Pioli and Todd Haley came on board after last season. The basic idea is easy enough to understand. You don't just go out and get the 53 most talented players. You look for guys that fit your system, have a good attitude and work ethic, and build a team that has good chemistry.
Pioli brought this philosophy with him from NE where he had his hand in the building of teams that won 3 Super Bowls. Haley, a Parcells disciple (like Belichick) seems to share this same philosophy. The question on most Chiefs fans' minds is: Will it work?
Truth: It takes more than big name (and big dollar) talent on a roster to win a Super Bowl.
If going out and spending huge dollars on big household names was the most successful way to win a Super Bowl then owners like Daniel Snyder, Jerry Jones, and Al Davis would be racking up rings left and right. To his credit, Jerry Jones has won Super Bowls in the past, but since Jimmy Johnson and Troy Aikman left town most of Jerry's big dollar players have failed to deliver the results he's looking for.
Every year fans of all the NFL teams hope, pray, and blog that their team will be the one that brings home the big names. However, rarely has this delivered the results that are hoped for. We Chiefs fans have a pretty short memory on this topic. It wasn't long ago that King Carl delivered us season after season of FA signings that were suppose to be the "missing piece" that we needed to get over the hump. It just never happened. If you look at the last 10 years of Super Bowl winners one thing is clear, Super Bowl teams are built, not bought.
Myth: Big time talent isn't needed if you have the "Right 53".
If you read the current front page story about Peter King's book it references the beginning days of the Patriots dynasty and how cheap no-name players like Larry Izzo, Otis Smith, and Mike Compton were brought in and eventually were part of their "Right 53" that won the Super Bowl. That, in and of itself, is true.
However, it gives the impression that you just need a team full of these hard working "scrappy" football players to come together and gel and "BOOM" you can win a Super Bowl. When people talk about those Patriot teams you hear the phrase "interchangeable parts" used a lot. The idea being that it's okay to cut Lawyer Milloy, because we can just replace him with the next guy and as long as the next guy is part of the "Right 53" the machine just keeps right on rolling. Again, this is true to a point. They did replace Milloy and did fine without him.
Here's the elephant in the room, Tom Brady is not an "interchangeable part". He's going to go down as one of the greatest QBs in football history. Was Brady surrounded by players that fit this "Right 53" description? Yes. Did he win Super Bowls without any other huge Hall of Fame type talent on offense? Yes. Could you just swap Brady out with another QB on those teams? No. There's no way anyone can argue that Drew Bledsoe would of had the same success on those teams if he had remained the QB. Our own new QB couldn't maintain the success that Brady had when he filled in last year. The same can be said for players on the other side of the ball on those Patriots teams.
On any one team there is no way you could swap out guys like Law, Harrison, Seymore, and Bruschi when they were in their prime and have the same success. The Patriots did prove to be masters of knowing when it was time to sell the talent off and replace them with the next guy, but that does not mean that their "talent" was not essential to winning.
***
So what does this mean for us Chiefs fans now that we are on our quest for the "Right 53" that will deliver us the Super Bowl wins that we have dreamed of for years? I'll answer that question with a couple more questions.
When Pioli and Haley took over a team that had won 6 games total the last two seasons, was the talent level anywhere near what is needed to win a Super Bowl? No. When they took over that same team, how many of the players on the roster they inherited fit the "Right 53" attitude they were looking for? This is a harder question to answer as fans that don't get to see what goes on behind closed doors, but I think its safe to assume we have almost as much work to do in this area as we do in the talent department.
The Chiefs were in desperate need of a total overhaul in both the talent department and the attitude / work ethic department. So here's what you should look forward to in the future. The Chiefs WILL continue to increase the overall talent of the team because right now there is just not enough talent to win a lot of games, I don't care who the coach or QB are. The Chiefs WILL NOT go out and spend money hand over fist for big name free agents. The Chiefs WILL continue to try and find guys like Mays, Wade, and O'Callaghan who are can contribute and fit the new way we are doing things. The Chiefs WILL NOT keep (or keep playing) guys like Pollard and DJ who might be more "talented" then others on the roster, but do not fit what we are doing and who we are trying to become as a team.
I know that it has almost become a punch line, but Todd Haley is right when he says "it's a process". That's exactly what this is. It's a process that involves increasing the talent level of a bad football team, but taking the time to make sure you are doing it with the "Right 53" guys. Give it time Chiefs fans, give it time.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Solid piece
Thanks for sharing, KCP. There’s one point that I would argue:
Here’s the elephant in the room, Tom Brady is not an “interchangeable part”. He’s going to go down as one of the greatest QBs in football history. Was Brady surrounded by players that fit this “Right 53” description? Yes. Did he win Super Bowls without any other huge Hall of Fame type talent on offense? Yes. Could you just swap Brady out with another QB on those teams? No.
I would argue that, to an extent, he’s interchangeable. The Pats won 11 games with Cassel at the helm, good for the playoffs in just about every season, and he improved drastically as the season went on, putting up similar Brady-like numbers in the second half of the season. If you gave Cassel another year, or even a shot at the playoffs last year, I would argue that he could be the “next” Brady.
Overall, though, well-stated.
Don't get me wrong
I am a huge Cassel fan and I agree with you to a point. But to say that given time Cassel could lead the Patriots to three Super Bowl wins is a HUGE leap of faith. Again, I think Cassel did a great job given the situation he was in, but they still lost 5 more games then the previous season. If that happened to a team that won 10 games and then dropped to 5 the next season, people wouldn’t be so quick to praise. I do think Cassel will be our franchise QB, but Brady is a clutch, three time Super Bowl winning, Hall of Famer. I’m just not comfortable saying anyone else short of Peyton Manning could of lead those same teams to Super Bowls.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
I hate this argument
Again, I think Cassel did a great job given the situation he was in, but they still lost 5 more games then the previous season.
16-0. That is all the way at one end of the spectrum. It may not happen again for 30 years, maybe longer. You can throw that right out the window. The Pats were not goign to go 16-0 again last year even with Brady. Maybe they do a little better with Brady, maybe they go 13-3 or 12-4…but they were a playoff team with Matt Cassel. Period. The freaking 8-8 Chargers got to go to the playoffs over a team that won 3 more games.
You can argue that Cassel isn’t as good as Brady but the whole 5 game drop off thing is a little silly.
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by Patrick Allen on Oct 14, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
also
great read Pork Chop.
Be sure to check out the Arrowhead Pride weekly Power Rankings
by Patrick Allen on Oct 14, 2009 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions
Fair enough
Blaming all 5 losses last year on Cassel isn’t fair, that’s true. However, if the argument is that Cassel and Brady are interchangeable, then the “give Cassel another year” argument that Joel made doesn’t fly because Brady not only took the Patriots to the playoffs under the exact same circumstances (replacing the injured starter), he won the Super Bowl that first year, and it wasn’t like they covered for him. He was the star player on that offense from the get go.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
I think the point KCP points to Brady as not being interchangeable because of when he won those Superbowls. He did not have great receivers and not nearly the line that the Patriots have now. The team was based on a good defense. But a lot of their wins were ugly in the beginning of Brady’s career. However, they won many in the last drive of the game by Brady. Brady is not your average QB because no one can step up in clutch situations like he does. They were able to build around Brady which makes you wonder whether a team can build around a guy like Cassel like the Chiefs are trying.
by theaxeeffect4721 on Oct 14, 2009 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes we can
and obviously we must.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 4:38 PM CDT up reply actions
But to say that given time Cassel could lead the Patriots to three Super Bowl wins is a HUGE leap of faith.
\
i bet that was exactly what everyone said when brady took over for bledsoe. he was a no namer that filled in for an injured QB.
The difference being
Bledsoe hadn’t already won 3 Super Bowls. Also, as I mentioned Brady DID win the Super Bowl in his first year playing even as a fill in.
I just want to say again that I am pro-Cassel. I think he is going to be really good.
My point about Brady was that the “Right 53” has to include some big time talent, not just a bunch of hard working guys that are on the same page.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
Agreed!
I’m with Joel on this, I think Cassel proved that Brady is replacable. Their 11-5 record last season gets a team into the playoffs almost any season. The Pats just happened to be in a division with stiff competition…
That being said, every team needs some consistency at key parts — which corroborates your points. Great post! Thanks for the write-up!
"Every day is an evaluation and if you’re not out there how can we depend on you? If you’re out there and you don’t know what to do, how can we depend on you?" Accountability -- Haley-style...
yah I'de kind of have to argue that too
I think Belichek could put daffy duck back there and get the job done…not taking anything from Brady…but put him in a Chiefs uniform and see what happens…yes yes he would do better than Cassel to be sure, but the reality is, he wouldn’t be breaking any records like he’s doing now.
This team WILL continue to lose when ...
You keep the little talent you have (DJ) on the bench for scrappy stiffs (Mays and DW)
Just how consistent has DJ been to earn that?
He makes one big play every three or four games, been that way his whole career.
We have to run the gauntlet over the next few weeks, we will be better for it. Pioli is not done with the roster, he will improve it. LJ is getting ready to start whining again.
consistently mediocre.
DJ has made more happen in his limited time on the field than those two have done starting and playing in every game thus far this season.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions
He's also....
LET more happen to the team when he takes plays off, misses his assignment, blows a coverage, doens’t know WHERE he’s supposed to be or WHO he’s supposed to be covering.
He’s also missed several tackles, been out of gap position on the running downs, and SOLD OUT his actual responcibilities so that he could go after that big play.
He may GET the big play once a game, but he sells out his actual responcibility 10 times a game trying to get the big play.
Consistency > Big Play Ability
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Oct 14, 2009 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
+1
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 4:40 PM CDT up reply actions
Demarrio Williams is on pace for 112 tackles
Go ahead see how many 100 tackle seasons DJ has had. Williams is playing better.
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by Patrick Allen on Oct 14, 2009 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions
not 100... but nothing to sneeze at
2005 96
2006 76
2007 94
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
The complaints shouldn't be about Demarrio
Demarrio has more solo tackles (28) than Mays, Hali and Vrabel have solo.
Mays is also only 25 years old and he has 25 tackles and is on pace for an 80 tackle season which is pretty good.
Mays has shown weakness in pass protection. Mayeb the best solution would be to have DJ play more insead of Mays.
Be sure to check out the Arrowhead Pride weekly Power Rankings
by Patrick Allen on Oct 14, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
than Mays, Hali and Vrabel have solo.
should read than Mays, Hali and Vrabel have total.
Be sure to check out the Arrowhead Pride weekly Power Rankings
by Patrick Allen on Oct 14, 2009 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions
We lost with DJ last year
We’re losing with out him this year. He doesn’t play a big factor in our plans. I like Mays. He’s shown more fire and consistency than DJ ever has. He laid several big hits on DAL RBs last week, and he is almost always one of three or four players that swarm the ball. He has a motor and a hunger that reminds me of Jared Allen. I remember Allen’s rookie year, where he tied DT’s rookie record of 9 sacks. Jared swarmed to the ball and was always close to the QB or RB. Mays is a player like that. He’ll be close to the ball on almost every play. DJ was/is not like that. More often than not he just tends to make a play or two and then fade away.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
I remember Barber shooting through the D-line and running right into Mays
Who stoned him right there 1-2 yard gain and Barber stopped in his tracks!
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 4:44 PM CDT up reply actions
DJ and Mays
it’s a different position, and I’m not sure it’s the best fit for DJ
Mays’ job is more of the run stuffer, stout ILB
DJ is faster and can chase down plays.
DJ is in the right position, they just need to rotate him and Williams… maybe put DJ in on passing downs?
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
AAAAAACHOOOOO!!!!
Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
no question there...take the emotion out of the equation and you get...
williams is by far outplaying anything DJ ever did. Dj has talent…he has his moments….but you cannot count on a guy that does good for 2 quarters and then blows his assignments in the 3rd and 4th and loses you the game…
you are better off playing someone who is at least consistent…then you can gameplan better cuz you at least know what you have to work with.
You're right
we should start our first round “talented” picks no matter what. After all its worked for the Raiders really well. Oh wait……….
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
by KCporkchop on Oct 14, 2009 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This team WILL continue to lose when ...
…living by the draft and the scrap heap: they have about 12-15 needs and only the first three prime picks (1-3) and discards from other teams to fill them.
Actually, it's 4 (1st two 2nds and a 3rd)
And likely to be more if Pioli tries to trade down. Do me a favor and name some teams that have recently won championships because they spent tons of money on FAs. Where did the Steelers get the 2008 defensive MVP James Harrison from? How many FAs have the Giants gone after? How about the Colts? When was the last time they made a big move to get a FA? The Pats get rid of FAs, they rarely sign them. DAL, WAS and OAK have tried to buy Champions. How is that working out for them?
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
Again, are you saying we shouldn't follow the Patriots blue print?
You want the Carl method of buying a team via free agency?
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
What Do You Think The Patriots Did?
They didn’t just rely on the draft…they also made trades and recruited free agents. Junior Seau, Rodney Harrison, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Mike Vrabel.
Ideally, do you want to get the core of your team through the draft? Yes…because it’s the most cost-effective way to build (and it usually means your GM knows how to find talent). But teams do not win Super Bowls in today’s NFL without at least
somefree agency to pick up key players. The Giants were built with a mixed approach (free agents and draft). So were the Cowboys of the 1990s. So are the Steelers. So are the Ravens.
So when people try to say that “you can’t buy a team with free agency” to excuse a team not signing players, they’re right in that you can’t buy enough free agent talent to stock an entire team but they’re usually failing to understand the important role that free agency plays in team building for good teams (and, as a consequence, are usually dead wrong in their assessment). Frankly, I think the people who claim that it’s okay that the Chiefs haven’t brought in any good free agents are just making excuses for Pioli’s very mixed first offseason here.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Clicked The Wrong Box
“Some” should have been italics, not a blockquote. Whoops. :)
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
You make good points
And I’m sure that Pioli will bring in
some
free agents. This is an evaluation year, anyone that didn’t see this coming was extremely naive. Pioli is going to look at each and every player, cut dead weight and then draft. After he has that done he can see where the weak points are, and address some of them in the FA. Between now and next year he’s going to try to trade at least a couple of players to acquire more picks so he can address more positions for the long term. Granted I don’t KNOW that this is Pioli’s plan, but I get a strong sense of what he’s doing. Next year will tell the tell of how good of a GM Pioli is. The 2010 draft/free agency is a make or break point for the Chiefs.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I totally failed with the italicize button. My bad. lol
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 12:39 PM CDT up reply actions
It Happens :)
I did the same.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Here's The Thing
Pioli is going to look at each and every player, cut dead weight and then draft.
I don’t have a problem with cutting players who don’t achieve (I think they ought to let DJ walk after his contract is up, frankly…but he should still be playing). I have a problem with his apparent fixation on replacing them with guys who come out of “his” system who have marginal to non-existent talent in any system.
Between now and next year he’s going to try to trade at least a couple of players to acquire more picks so he can address more positions for the long term.
Sounds good in theory…what have the Chiefs got in reality that people are going to give up good picks for? Dorsey maybe? DJ…who the Chiefs are destroying the trade value of by not playing him? Nobody’s paying for Larry Johnson.
The “players for picks” trades are great for a rebuilding team…assuming that team has any players that anyone wants. Or that they’re able to trade those players for something that will offer a better long-term return. Pioli has yet to show he can do that.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Doesn't free agency start prior to draft?
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 4:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Just found this too
NFL and FA tampering changes to FA
Todays info
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not saying that they shouldn't add some FAs, just don't over pay for average or past thier prime players.
How many of those players you listed did they break the band to get? The answer, zero. They didn’t get any of those guys by going out and paying top dollar on the FA market. Moss and Welker (although steals) have just as many Super Bowl rings as I do for what that’s worth. Seau and Dillon were cast offs that nobody was that excited about anymore. Vrabel wasn’t a big name before going to the Patriots. I would argue that Harrison was the only one on the list that has won a Super Bowl with them that was actually a player in his prime when they brought him in. There is a big difference between what the Patirots did and what Snyder is doing.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
Dillon Wasn't A Castoff
He was dumped for being disgruntled in Cincinnati. Nobody doubted his ability.
There is a big difference between what the Patirots did and what Snyder is doing.
Who said anything about following Dan Snyder’s model? Nobody. You’re attempting to frame the argument as there being only two poles in teambuilding (free agent, no free agent) and I was pointing out to you that all good teams use free agents to some degree to rebuild. So far under Pioli the Chiefs have flopped on their free agent acquisitions…and if the future is more draft classes like Pioli’s last four, we’re certainly not going to win games without dipping into the market. And yes, that’s going to involve some overpaying.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I'm NOT saying don't add any FA
I’m saying going out and paying big dollars for as many top FAs as we can afford is not the answer. It seems like on this point we are arguing for the same thing. I agree that some FAs are needed, they just shouldn’t be THE answer.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
In his post
KCporkchop actually said that we are going to continue to get free agents but we weren’t going to break the bank while doing so. Almost anytime you participate in the free agency market there will usually be over-paying involved as most players are in free agency for the bucks, especially when it is a talent that other teams are also interested in. I don’t think that Pioli will involve himself with much frequency in these bidding wars but rather continue to work the fringes of the market until we can get to the point when picking up a “primetime” free agent or two might make the difference from being a contender to a champion.
Great
Who are these “fringe” free agents he’s brought in and how have they helped this team?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
A lot of them are projects
and are on the practice squad & will hopefully develope into solid contributers in the future like Lance Long, Mike Richardson, David Herron, & Chris Patrick.
As starters thus far, we have seen Mike Brown, Mike Goff, Bobby Wade, Terrance Copper, Corey Mays, Sean Ryan, & Leonard Pope.
Then there are the CFA’s: Jovan Belcher, Pierre Walters, Jackie Bates, Dion Gale, & Bobby Greenwood.
Also the one’s we released: Eric Ghiacuc, Zac Thomas, Amani Toomer, & Ashley Lelie. Plus whomever else I’ve forgotten.
"Projects" Usually Means Scrub
Lance Long – 2008 UDFA, 0 career receptions
Mike Richardson – 6th round pick in 2007, 17 career tackles
David Herron – 2007 UDFA, 6 career tackles
Chris Patrick – 2007 UDFA, 0 games played
Mike Brown – 2 season ending injuries in last three years…gave up play that won in OT.
Mike Goff – worst o-line starter for Chiefs this year.
Bobby Wade – waiver pickup, not free agent. 7th year in NFL. Career best season, 647 yards.
Terrence Copper – 6 seasons in NFL. Career best season 385 yards (2003). 2nd best season, 126 yards.
Corey Mays – on pace for mediocre 80-some tackles. Probably Pioli’s best find.
Leonard Pope – never started more than 11 games in any season while playing for team in need of TE help.
Sean Ryan – 29 years old…averaging 9.5 ypc
Jovan Belcher – one of only two legitimate prospects Pioli seems to have dug up.
I have no idea why you’d list the guys Pioli released prior to the season as people who were somehow of benefit to this team. And if you look at the names you compiled, most of them (with the exception of Mays, Wade and maybe Belcher) have demonstrated they have no business being on an NFL roster.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
One Addition
Mike Brown is probably good enough to be on an NFL roster. As a backup. Unfortunately, Pioli and Haley decided to cut Pollard and hand the job to Brown so now he’s a liability instead of an asset.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
That was Demorrio Williams last 2 years
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 8:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Huh?
Not sure I get your point.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
yikes
you got awful negative lately, UC.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
The Philly Game Pushed Me Over The Edge
I will put up with a lot from a team. I’ll never put up with a coach who quits on a game at halftime down by less than three TDs. That was gutless on Haley’s part. And it was a slap in the face to the fans.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
And Frankly
He’s given us very few reasons to think he’s going to get better.
I’m less down on Pioli. I think he screwed up this offseason, but he at least seems to be holding himself accountable. Don’t know if that’ll translate to a better effort next year, but at least he had the decency to be embarassed by the Chiefs’ performance last year and to apologize for it. I couldn’t help but wonder if his comment about being “annoyed” at the game was directed as much at Haley as the players.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Correction
“performance last Sunday” I meant.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I am with you UC
The Philly game was what did it for me too. If everyone remembers, I was all about Todd Haley until then. That changed my view of him for sure. It will take a lot for me to change my view at this point.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 9:34 PM CDT up reply actions
Demorrio seem a wasted FA pickup
Yet is being quite productive this year. has the tackles not the big-time plays so far.
The players that might be scrubs this year might be productive next year. ala Vrabel when he got to NE.
We don’t need a lot of them to produce, just some.
Theory of probability or something. Plus the practice squad of any team in the league seems to be the property of the whole league, just the checks are spread among 32 teams. Pitt needed a DE and grabbed one from a Florida team. My points are less coherent than yours.
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 8:45 PM CDT up reply actions
He Was A So-So FA Pickup
And the only reason he seemed so horrible last year was because Gunther Cunningham was incompetent and benched him halfway through his first season here. Which, if you’ll go back through the archives, I argued at the time was more a result of Gunther’s incompetence than Demorrio being a terrible linebacker.
The guy’s about what I thought he was last year…a so-so player who’s pretty disposable if someone better comes along.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I listed the cut players
as “fringe” free agents who were brought in to see if perhaps they could be of benefit to the Chiefs.
6 of the remaining are starters for the Chiefs & are upgrades from what we had (the debatable exception being Pollard) yet probably none of them would be starters elsewhere. And several others see playing time every week.
The projects might develop or they might become scrubbables, no one can know & we aren’t out on any large limbs that I’m aware of. The fact that so few of our cuts have been picked up & few are lamenting their loss would signal to me that the practice squad is probably a couple of notches better than last years.
ture true
it’s a balance that makes it work…you DO have to go get veteran talent to mix with your youth so you can grow and become and stay great…teams like the Raiders…their one sided…they buy everyone that comes along….it just doesn’t work that way….
BALANCE
Yup
The blended approach works…you should always look to infuse talent through the draft, but if you’re planning to build off of the draft and waiver wire scrubs, your team isn’t going anywhere.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Give it time is right
Tha’s what I’ve been saying for the past few months. I was just talking with a co-worker, who’s a PIT fan (not a bandwagoner though), and I told him “Pioli’s doing it right. Good teams just aren’t bought or built overnight.”. Being a PIT fan he fully understood, and agrees. His team is a six time champ because they build through the draft and rarely accquire big name FAs. I referenced the continual roster turn over and the fact that Pioli’s constantly evlauating and scouting. He’s not sitting idle like Peterson.
Pioli will get this turned around, but he doesn’t have to do it by spending shit tons of cash on FAs. In fact, that’s the opposite of how he KNOWS how to build a winning team. Just to make a point… how is Albert Haynesworth doing in WAS? Is he worth the 100 mil he’s getting?
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 10:19 AM CDT reply actions
I agree that we must be patient
But how do you tell those Chiefs fans, some who don’t have extra cash to spend, to keep buying Chiefs merchandise, or tickets to the game when they know right now the team most likely won’t win more than 4 or 5 games. We could sit here all day and analyze what moves Pioli and Haley make, which player is/isn’t progressing, and how we must give time for this team to develop into a winner, which in my opinion will happen, but it still doesn’t address the other part of this Chiefs franchise and that’s the fans.
It's their call
I’ll be patient. If the other fans want to bitch and moan and cry and be in constant despair, let them. And they’ll all come back like they were always here with new screen names when the Chiefs start winning again. I don’t pay to go to the games, but I will always go when tickets are given to me, win or lose, rain or shine. I buy merchandise though. Look, it’s their perogative to financially support the team or not. Clark will be ok if he sells 15% fewer tickets over the next year or two, which is about what I think the loss will be. And he’ll sell out again when the Chiefs field a good enough product. He’s fully aware that bad teams will not bring in good money. He’ll fix it.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions
That's pretty simple.
If you don’t have the money, don’t buy the gear. If you have other pressing needs, don’t buy the tickets. Watch on TV. Only go to a couple of games. Read AP. Don’t feel like you HAVE to support your team with your wallet. It’s possible to be a fan without tying yourself up by the purse strings.
I love the Chiefs. I go to a couple of games each year. I enjoy reading AP. That’s enough love for now.
Great read.
Agree almost 100%. This team is really bad talent wise and it will take a long time for Pioli/Haley to put the pieces together. CP made the mistake of bringing in the big name FA’s to “fix” things. Rarely works out. How much is Haynesworth helping the Redskins? Not that he is the reason for their record, but the point is that throwing money at all the big names doesn’t create a winning team. Washington is the poster child for this.
We will be built like NE was and it will be a lasting fix. It will also be painful to watch in the meantime. I just think as the players begin to see the progress, the “process” will accelerate. The roster will continue to change, the front office will be busy, and the franchise will be better for it.
I remember Dawson to Taylor, Kenney to Carson, and Blackledge catching the snap in his facemask. Seen it all...
+ 1
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Simple...
Because he has obviously pissed off Haley at some point. I don’t know what he has done but, he is as good as done in KC at this point. (at least it appears that way)
I would like to see him on the field but, Haley is obviously looking for lap dogs as opposed to talented football players so, I don’t see DJ getting much, if any playing time for the rest of this season.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions
The point I was trying to make
is that they do want talented players, they just aren’t going to be held hostage by them if they won’t do things the way they want. What’s wrong with that? If my boss tells me he wants things done a specific way and my attitude is “I’m doing fine as is and don’t want to do it your way” then my boss should be pissed off. That’s whats wrong with so many pro sports teams today. The inmates run the assylum and nobody does anything about it because the inmates are the ones with big contracts and media attention.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
If By "Won't Be Held Hostage"
You mean “don’t care whether or not they win football games”, then the problem doesn’t lie with the players…the coaching staff’s priorities are wrong.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Yeah
This talented group was so great that they managed to light the world on fire with 2 wins last year. And that was with DJ starting. Imagine how much worse it can get if we never play him again. lmao.
DJ is the perfect example of a talented player not working on a team.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 12:30 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Of a big ass contract eating up the Chiefs
Peterson hamstrung KC by giving LJ that contract. Pioli/Haley can, but probably won’t bench him becasue they’d like for him to put up some good enough stats to trade him.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
If That's The Case
They’re going to be waiting a long time to see that. Johnson’s numbers aren’t looking like they’ll improve much.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
So your solution is to either bench him til 2012
Or cut him?
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
My Proposed Solution
Was to cut him before the season, since the team wouldn’t have been on the hook for his contract after they won their grievance.
Now I don’t care whether they bench him or cut him, just as long as they quit playing him. He’s terrible.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
We could still use him in some situations...
Short yardage, goal line. that would be okay with me. Savage or Charles (or both) should be getting the bulk of the carries if for no other reason, the fact that they are younger and could use the experience. I think Savage could really break out if they would just let the kid play.
LJ can do whatever at this point. i don’t really care.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah
LJ can do whatever at this point. i don’t really care.
Cut him, bench him, play him on special teams. Whatever.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
And This Year
They look like a team that will be lucky to win two games without DJ.
Derrick Johnson was not the reason this team lost last year. If he’s better than the guys playing ahead of him (and he’s better than Corey Mays) then he should be starting.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
No, he wasn't the reason we lost
But he also didn’t do a whole heck of a lot to help us win. Why are you so upset about this? DJ had 4 years to prove his worth and didn’t get it done. Yeah, he’s made great plays ocassionaly, but he also fades away and tends to disappear for several games at a time.
Look, we don’t know what the deal is with Haley and DJ, but I’m sure there’s legitimate cause for it. DJ’s had a history of being out of position because he wants to ball hawk. He’s probably not doing what Haley wants in practice.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 14, 2009 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions
Fallacy
But he also didn’t do a whole heck of a lot to help us win.
That argument is made frequently about the better players on bad teams, and it’s flawed and inaccurate. The Chiefs won two games with DJ in the lineup last year…this year with DJ out of the lineup they look like a team that may not be able to win two games. They’ve made themselves worse and frankly there’s no rhyme or reason to it. DJ’s inconsistent, but he’s also better than Mays (who, frankly, is a marginal player that the team will be unlikely to build around). So by that rationale he should be playing, simply because he gives the team a better chance to win, even with the occasional off-game. There’s no upside to refusing to play your best players for non-discipline-related reasons when your team is already winless.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Answer me this UCrawford
How do you convince the team to buy into your way of doing things if you let your big name players get away with not doing it? If you let DJ go out and play when he’s not doing what you want after you have preached that only guys that do it the way you want can play you lose all credibility. If you want to change a losing culture you have to draw a line in the sand and say, “that crap won’t fly anymore.”
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
by that argument, LJ should have been on the curb long ago, as well as Goff
Haley’s talking out of both sides his mouth – he claims to want The Right 53, but then says there’s competition at every position and the ones who best will start …
thing is, the ones playing worst are often starting over those who can and do play better
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
yes but we don't have a suitable full time replacement for Goff or LJ
and that’s the simple truth…now when Smith gets back you may see that change….but really who can you count on now full time to replace LJ…charles the fumbler??
it’s frustrating to be sure but it’s also true…we have no depth…we have no talent…but we really have no talent on depth. we’re fucked either way…
so it’s a moog point really about LJ…we’ll probably trade for Landanlian after he gets his walker fitted proplerly so he can wobble down the field for us.
Dantrell Savage has been the guy if you ask me.
He is a better RB than Smith at this point.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions
yah I guess he could be...
I never see him enough to know if he can cut it full time or not…that’s why I said full time replacement…I’m sure someone could come in and get lucky once in awhile..but does he have staying power?? I just don’t know…but he’s the only other option til smith gets back.
And Smith Is A Terrible RB
He had two good games two years ago. He was horrible in most of the other games he’s played in, with an occasional flash of mediocrity.
He’s probably extended his career already beyond what a 5th round pick of his ability should have gotten.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Savage and Charles as the 1-2 punch would be the best way to go.
I have to say, I have liked watching Savage run the ball this year. The training he did with Priest looks to have paid off. He has shown great patience and burst when he runs through the hole and seems to be tough as nails. What I like most is that he acts like a guy who is out to prove something. Put him and Charles in 2 back sets and the defense won’t know what to do. Both of them can catch, block and run. And they are both pretty damn quick (although Charles is obviously the quicker of the two)
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions
Answer
How do you convince the team to buy into your way of doing things if you let your big name players get away with not doing it?
Not doing what? So far I’ve yet to hear what Derrick Johnson did besides (according to Pioli) get hurt early on. And he’s been a more productive player than Mays when he has played.
So far all I see out of “Haley’s way of doing things” is Haley screaming at players, screwing up game management, and rarely holding himself accountable for things he did to help put the team in the hole this year. Doesn’t appear to me that DJ did much of anything wrong except not have Haley like him.
As for his inconsistency…if Haley’s such a good goddamned coach, then how come he can’t train any of these guys up? Pollard’s got better tools than any of the strong safeties who’ve replaced him. Why does ancient Mike Brown get his job? I’ve seen a lot of comments on these boards about Haley’s “fire” being a good thing…and yet this team appears to be moving backwards. I don’t see what he does as being any different than what Krumrie does…scream at players until they tune you out.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
And To Expand On One Comment
Doesn’t appear to me that DJ did much of anything wrong except not have Haley like him.
And from what I’ve seen of Haley, him not liking someone is probably not much of a reflection on that person. Todd Haley appears to be a rather miserable person who has trouble getting along with people. Sort of like Parcells or Belichick, but without the coaching talent.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
stop being so negative! you're always on this anti-Haley negative thing and ...
oh, wait … you’re RIGHT!
carry on, kind Sir
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
If we were talking about a player that had been great before it would be one thing,
but DJ has done nothing but underachieve since he came into the league. So you want me to believe that the reason a player who has never lived up to his ability is not playing is because the coach is a jerk not because the underachieving player is not doing what he is suppose to? Why does DJ get a pass and Haley get ripped for this? Why doesn’t DJ seem as upset about not playing as you do? I stand by what I said in that if you want to change the culture of a losing team you have demand all the players buy in. You can’t give a first round pick with natural talent a pass, it ruins the credibility of what you’re trying to do. There is nothing you can say that will make believe that DJ is out there busting his hump, giving 110% on every play and Haley is just not playing him to prove a point. If DJ wants on the field more he should freaking man up, work hard, and do what he’s told. He’s an employee who’s getting paid a lot of money and the Chiefs have a right to demand he do things the way they want. If he won’t give that effort then as far as I’m concerned he can take his lazy self to another team.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
what if, not saying it's TRUE, but what it ...
DJ really IS out there busting his hump, giving 110% on every play and Haley really IS just not playing him to prove a point …
then what? like that’s a GOOD way to run a team?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
That would be terrible
100% terrible. But given DJs track record of not living up to his ability I don’t think its fair to Haley to assume that is what is going on.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
you could be right ... and I generally do like to give people the benefit of the doubt ...
but I’ve seen/heard too many things from Haley that simply don’t jive and don’t sit well … and for those reasons I now give low credence to pretty much anything Haley (and/or Pioli) says
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
not questioning, just curious
what one or two things specifically have ruined their credibility with you?
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
ok, here we go ...
1) Haley’s “in your face” style from the get go (maybe it’s a matter of not being used to it, but I don’t think that’s how you “build chemistry” with your personnel
2) the whole Waters things “we’re too busy running a football team to talk to you” … excuse me, guys? this guy IS part of the very team you’re supposed to be running, and in fact is one of the few bright spots on an otherwise talentless OL that begs for attention (and was also summarily ignored until it was too late to really do anything productive)
3) tossing Chan Gailey and the entire playbook and scheme out the door with 2 wks to go before season opener, then still expecting players to be “up to speed”
4) what I believe was “quitting” at halftime of the Eagles game (the play-calling was in no way designed to produce points, especially in a hurry)
5) claiming that “the players that give the team the best chance to win” would be playing, then cutting or benching some of the players who do just that – he says he holds players accountable, but apparantly there is noone to hold him accountable (Haley sent a very good OC packing, took over the job and has the team at the bottom of nearly every category, and the defense is also at or near the bottom, yet the players and coaches that Pioli and Haley want and give us NO chance to win are playing and coaching – so tell me please, where’s the accountability?)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Agreed On All
I’ll also add
6) Filling the staff with a bunch of his coaching buddies, most of whom did terribly when they’d been in similar positions before (Pendergast, Carthon, Gibbs, Krumrie).
7) Benching Bowe the entire preseason to prove some point, thereby hindering Cassel’s ability to develop chemistry with his top receiver…something they’ve only started to develop in the 5th week of the season.
8) Quitting on the Philadelphia game (yes, it was mentioned before…but that needs to be stressed again). There is no excuse for a coach to quit on a game at halftime in the NFL down by only 17. None.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Both of you have some valid points
I agree to a point with some and don’t agree with others. Maybe I’m just a sucker, but I’m willing to give these guys more time. I’ll be just as pissed as both of you if things are still a mess five games into next season. You have every right as fans to not approve of how the team is being run. I just think that when you are trying to break the downward spiral of a losing team there is going to be some serious turbulance when you break the team out of the spin (so to speak). I just think its too early to tell if they are pulling us out of the spiral or stearing us into a cliff. I’m not saying it couldn’t go either way, just that its too soon to tell.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
Wow!!! UC and upamtn...
are slingin the negativity around tonight!!! I agree with all of it.
Carry on Brothers!
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 9:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Unfortunately
Realism and honesty = negativity at this point. Kind of tough to separate them when you’re talking about an 0-5 team that doesn’t have anyone who looks like a guaranteed building block (yes, I like Cassel, but he hasn’t exactly been Manning or Brady yet).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
PorkChop keep hanging in I got your back
from the last stall :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks man,
but don’t worry about me I’m convinced we’re one notch above the total suck teams like Clv, TB, StL, and Oak (I know, I know they beat us at home). I still believe.
Besides, how can I be upset when I got my first post on the front page. :-)
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
oh, I agree with ya, PC ... we ARE better than those teams
of course, I think last year’s Chiefs were better than those teams this year as well
gj on the post, PC … the high number of comments showed it was worthy
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
1970...you know i got nothing but love for ya brother...
but the whole “OBVIOUSLY” statement doesn’t cut it…i beg to differ…NOTHING is obvious…this ship is tight lipped…..we don’t know anything to be obvious…DJ could be asking for a trade behind the scenes for all we KNOW!!
He could have said he doesn’t want to play for the Chiefs for all we know…there could be lots of reasons…the Chiefs could have a couple offers on the table and don’t want him injured either.
Haley has never bad mouthed DJ. DJ has never bad mouthed Haley….it could be a lot of things…we just don’t know the truth…
Haley never bad-mouthed Pollard that I recall, but there was a young guy with some speed who was one of the hardest hitters on the team ...
and so … seeya, Pollard, we’ll replace you with someone slower, someone with less overall talent, someone who is OUR kind of player (with no explanation of what that means … so just what DOES that “Right 53” really mean?)
not arguing that DJ or Pollard were THE BEST IN THE NFL … but please, we are obviously NOT playing those who give us “the best chance to win” and isn’t that what it’s all about?
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
It Is To Me
At least Pollard has skills and could potentially be coached out of bad habits (assuming the coaching staff actually knows how to coach players). Mike Brown hasn’t even got the physical skills to keep up anymore. He’s not helping the team win, he’s not improving the overall defense (again, currently worst in the NFL) and he’s not part of the future. Where was the sense in dumping a raw player with physical tools for a once-great player who no longer has the tools to succeed?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
right, that's my point ...
I see no reason (other than Haley’s whim) not to have DJ out there … I see no reason (other than Haley’s stubborn streak) to keep LJ out there … and no reason (other than The Compnay Line: The Right 53) for Pollard to have been sent packing (considering the guy who’s playing now)
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Let me ask you and UCrawford this
Don’t you think there were Patriot fans with these same questions about Pioli and Bellichick’s moves when they took over in NE?
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
very possibly ...
did Pioli and Belichick arrive together?
but then too, just because it was “done this way” in new England doesn’t mean it’s “the right way” or certainly “the only way”
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
If This Looked Like A Five Win Team Like Belichick's And Pioli's First Team
Instead of a two win or less team, then I’d probably have a bit more blind faith in them. I see no reason for this team to have gotten worse than what Herm did last year.
And upamtn pretty much nailed it…there’s no reason for Larry Johnson to be starting considering how wretched he’s performed. But he’s starting because Haley wants him to start so he’s out there continuing to suck. There’s no reason for DJ to be buried at third on the depth chart when he’s the most talented linebacker on the team. But Haley wants him on the bench so he doesn’t play and the defense is the worst in the league. And there’s no reason for Haley to have scrapped the entire offense a week before the season instead of doing it before OTAs and training camp. But that’s what Haley wanted so the offense has been a disaster.
I’d have a little more faith in Todd Haley’s decision making if any of his major decisions seemed to be making the team in any way better. But they aren’t. So what does Todd Haley’s opinion mean to me? He’s just some dude with shitty people skills who was a two year offensive coordinator for a team that was one game above .500 in the 2nd worst division in football. And Pioli’s just a guy who worked with Belichick…just like a lot of other guys who turned out to be terrible at their job once they weren’t working for Belichick. Why should I believe he’s on the right track when he ignored the biggest problem area on the team this year (o-line)?
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I'm sounding like a broken record, I know
but we’ll have to wait and see if the team this year is better then last year. I think after 17 weeks this will be a better team. When I watch the Chiefs this year I see moments of a real team shine through out of the muck every now and then. The combination of getting familiar with each other (players and coaches) and an easier schedule as the year goes on could still make a difference. I wouldn’t be shocked if we only won 2 games again this year. I also wouldn’t fall out of my chair if we won a combination of 4-5 games out of @Wash, SD, @Jax, @Oak, Den, Clv, and Buff.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
by KCporkchop on Oct 14, 2009 9:35 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't need to wait and see.
This team is no better than last year. I don’t know if it can possibly be any worse but, I don’t see ANY improvement at this point and I have to agree with UC. Todd Haley was not the right hire. He may be a decent Coach in the right situation but, he is definitely NOT the right guy to take over a losing team and be expected to turn it around.
by Chiefsfan1970 on Oct 14, 2009 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
No better then last year?
Really? You think we’ll let the Bills roll into arrowhead and drop 54 points on us again? In back to back games against the Titans and Panthers we were outscored 68-10. I know it’s been bad so far this year, but I don’t think your respecting the depths of the “suck” that we sank to last year.
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
The Only Reason We Wouldn't
Is because the Bills got worse this offseason (because they tore apart their o-line too).
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
Realism really sucks Rec
The Chiefs will show more than flashes soon :)
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
by Steve_Chiefs on Oct 14, 2009 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions
I Might Not Agree With You Steve
But I honestly hope you’re right.
Moderator - Arrowhead Pride
Predictions for 2009
1. Todd Haley's going to struggle with managing his staff in his rookie year as head coach.
6. The Chiefs will go 7-9 in 2009, good for 2nd in the AFC West. Revision: We go 5-11 and finish behind Oakland.
7. Ryan Succop will not perform better in 2009 than Connor Barth did in 2008.
8. The Chiefs will have a bottom 10 defense this year.
9. RB will be a problem area this season on offense.
I know where you are coming from but...
at the same time, you have to let players do what they did to get themselves into this position in the first place. Yes, there are lots of things DJ could do better but, there are also alot of things that he does very well as it is.
The bottom line to me is that he has the speed, football IQ, and tackling ability that no other LB on this team has and he should be playing. At least SOME! I’m not saying he should be the starter. if he and Haley have issues then, Haley should make him 2nd string but, he is too good of a player to never see the field.
Right Track.
At this point, we’re on the right track. We’re still not doing well as a team, but…As fans, we accepted that at best this team was going to go 8-8, And at worst expected nothing at all. The Patriots were sucessful because they drafted well, and had talented guys who fit the system in key positions. (Bruschi, Brady, Harrison, ect.) The same can be said of the Colts, The Steelers, and The Falcons. It’s been a combination of Good, solid coaching, along with incredible talent evaluation. We’re on the hard part of the road, as I see it. What needs to happen at this point is our players need to get their asses kicked by Haley again for messing up the fundamentals. When I was playing ball in High school, If we missed a tackle, or tried to arm tackle someone, We ran. If we blew an assignment, we ran. If we dropped a pass, We ran. All 53 of the guys on this team need to not be comfortable. They need to know that they are expendable, they need to know that they WILL be held accountable. As far as I’m concerned, 2009 is nothing more than extended training camp/preseason.
That being said, When it comes down to Mays versus DJ, I take Mays. He’s flying around, he’s involved with almost every play, he works hard. He’s hungry. DJ has been…inconsistant at the best of times, and as good as he can be in coverage, that doesn’t make him great. Personally, I don’t mind it if he gets traded to a team that can utilize his talent better. The More Draft Picks, the better.
Right now, this team is building an identity, And until It has one, expect more losses. Like I said, Just…think of it as extended preseason/training camp, and you’ll feel much better about all of this. Well, that and a pony keg of Guiness. Brilliant! Peace guys, We’re still better red than dead.
by BetterRedThanDead on Oct 14, 2009 12:10 PM CDT reply actions
hard to imagine that DJ isn't one of The Right 53 but LJ is ...
… great post and not going to flat out disagree, but LJ’s been like a cancer on the team for however many years and is producing zilch this year, while DJ has at least shown some positives in his thus-far limited playing time … I realize “team chemistry” is an important part of any organization, but to see talent like DJ being wasted because insert whatever lame excuse you want here is ridiculous
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
LJ is NOT!! But you can clean the litter box out and then replace it with bird shit
it’s not much different…this WHOLE team is in trouble…read Chris’ stats on the front page…we’re ranked almost last on Offense AND defense..what we call improved….the rest of the league calls…..a punchline…cuz we’re a joke…a horrible shitty joke…
everyone agrees on LJ…but who do you get? Vrable he already has as many TD’s as some of our other receivers….he’s playing Defense..maybe he should run too..and wildcat and play QB…
I know it sucks man…I hate it too…but reality is…we have NO ONE to replace the already lousy starters we have at SOOOOO many positions.
hey, now waitjustaminutehere! are you implying that Haley is NOT ...
the super offensive guru wunderkind fix-everything genius all-we-need-is-Haley that was advertised? gasp say it isn’t so!
yeah, I know we have some lousy players, and that’s why it bother me that tehy end up bringing in guys who are even lousier than what we had to begin with, all in the name of being The Right 53
Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisiton!
Nice post Porkchop Rec!
We Will kick at least 4 Teams Asses in 09
And Succop will be the Key in two of them.
" Think and talk positive football off the field." Hank Stram
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