Chiefs Third Down Woes: Play Calling, Penalties or Poor Play?
by Chris Thorman on Oct 13, 2009 11:55 AM CDT
in 2009 Campaign
86 comments
So we all know the Kansas City Chiefs have major troubles on third down. After Sunday's game, the Chiefs are now 14/68 on third down for a nice conversion rate of 20.6%. Sunday, the Chiefs were 5/17 on third downs for a conversation rate of 29%.
But, it's not like the Chiefs get to third down and inexplicably can't convert them just because it's the third play in a series. Logically speaking, it's first and second down that's hurting us the most. Especially when 8 of those 15 third downs had the Chiefs needing 10 or more yards to go for the first. And six of those actually required 15 or more yards for the first.
After the jump, I've gone over all of the Chiefs third downs they didn't convert (12 of them) to see if we can find a pattern of poor play, bad play calling, penalties or a combo of them all.
There's lots of room for debate on this one so I'm excited to see what you all have to say.
First Quarter
3rd and 11
How we got there: Mark Bradley lost two yards on a reverse and Larry Johnson only gained one yard on second down.
Verdict: Poor play calling
3rd and 3
How we got there: Jamaal Charles had a nice run for 7 yards on first down but Matt Cassel was sacked on second down. An incomplete pass to Bradley sealed the deal and the Chiefs punted.
Verdict: Poor play
Second Quarter
3rd and 15
How we got there: Larry Johnson lost six yards on first down and then only gained one yard on second down. Cassel's incomplete short pass to Sean Ryan virtually ended the series and Ryan Succop kicked his first field goal of the game.
Verdict: Poor play calling
3rd and 17
How we got there: This drive started out great with passes of 13 and 20 yards by Cassel to Sean Ryan and Dwayne Bowe respectively. A 7-yard loss on a Cassel sack and incomplete pass to Dwayne Bowe on second down put the Chiefs in a terrible third down position again.
Verdict: Poor play
3rd and 6
How we got there: What started as a solid drive at the end of the first half wound up stalling. After starting out at their own 12-yard line, the Chiefs faced 1st and 10 on their own 44-yard line. First down was an incomplete pass. Then a 15-yard pass to Sean Ryan was negated by a Brian Waters holding penalty. On 2nd and 20, Cassel hit Bradley for 14 yards. Third and six saw Cassel throw incomplete to Mark Bradley.
Verdict: Penalty
Third Quarter
3rd and 20
How we got there: The Chiefs got the ball back to start the half and only lasted five plays. After a nice first down 14-yard gain by Sean Ryan, Cassel's short pass to LJ fell incomplete on first down. Then, Cassel was sacked for a ten yard loss and yet again, the Chiefs faced third and long.
Verdict: Poor play
3rd and 3
How we got there: The final series of one of the Chiefs longest drives ended up well - with Ryan Succop putting three points on the board. On that final series, LJ rushed for two yards before two Cassel incompletions forced a punt. You can debate the merits of a pass on 3rd and short but let's face it - Larry wasn't getting that one.
Verdict: Poor play
3rd and 5
How we got there: With the ball on their own 33-yard line, LJ rushed for five yards; Cassel threw an incomplete pass to Sean Ryan on the play Branden Albert was injured on; and Cassel threw an incomplete pass to Bowe on 3rd and five.
Verdict: Poor play
Fourth Quarter
3rd and 22
How we got there: A long, long drive by the Chiefs starting with 11 minutes left in the game ended with Ryan Succop's 53-yard field goal being blocked. The final series went down like this: poor deep pass by Cassel in the direction of Bobby Wade; a Brian Waters false start; a 3-yard Jamaal Charles run; offensive pass interference on Dwayne Bowe made 3rd and 12 3rd and 22. Cassel hit Wade for a 9-yard gain but alas, it was way too short.
Verdict: Penalties
3rd and 7
How we got there: The Chiefs final drive of regulation ended with me jumping up and down yelling "Boooooooooooooowe!!!!!!" The final series of the ten play drive was uneventful aside from the TD. An incomplete pass to Bradley and a short gain by Charles gave the Chiefs 3rd and 7.
Verdict: Wash
Overtime
3rd and 15
How we got there: Cassel's 14-yard pass to Bradley on the first play of overtime got me so jacked up but I was completely deflated when Wade Smith was called for holding on the next play. A five yard run by Cassel made it 3rd and 15 which was not converted when D. Bowe caught a 10-yard pass to make it fourth down.
Verdict: Penalties
3rd and 9
How we got there: The Chiefs got that rare second chance in overtime to score but of course, they didn't. An incomplete pass and an LJ one yard run gave the Chiefs another third and long. Sorry Todd Haley. But at this point in the game, after seeing what we saw from the running game all day long, an LJ draw on second and 10 killed us.
Verdict: Poor play calling
So out of 12 third downs the Chiefs didn't convert, here's how I have the problems breaking down:
- Penalties: 3
- Poor play calling: 3
- Poor play: 5
Thoughts on the why the Chiefs have issues with third downs? Do you feel that it's mainly one of these factors over the others? Or a combination?
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watching miami / nyj game last night...
The Dolphins lead the league with 54% on third down. I can see why. It seemed like they gained 5 or more on first down. And, most of those were on the run, wildcat too.
Years ago, when we had our O Line, we were very successful on third down. Now, we’re lucky to hit on one of our three downs before we punt.
by kc571 on Oct 13, 2009 11:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
They also don't get a lot of negative plays by way of yards for loss and penalties
And oh yea, they have an O-line that knows how to block.
by golfbard on Oct 13, 2009 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Normally helps to not have matadors out there
well unless we were in Mexico I guess. And we had actual bulls trying to kill us…
by Ren on Oct 13, 2009 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay I'll contribute one conversion or lack there of at a time.
The first one you listed the verdict as bad play calling. I disagree. A reverse averages 3 yards per attempt. The play call was not bad, you only call this play (traditionally) on 1st and 2nd downs. What was bad was the execution of the play. Think about how often the Chiefs have been schooled for short yardage plays that result in big yardage. Think about teams like the steelers whom always seem to get 10 yards or more out of a simple reverse. Execution is key.
by ChiefsFan79 on Oct 13, 2009 12:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
the reverse play at the beginning of the game
Even my wife was saying why the hell are they running that kind of play and she hardly knows what a reverse is till now. and she said “That was stupid”.
My take on that was we can barely run the ball on a traditional up the middle run how in the hell are we going to get anything on a Double reverse our line isnt good enought o pull and block where they need to and the guys besides the line that coulda picked up some blocks didnt nice try bad call bad execution = fail
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually the fact the oline sucks is the whole point of it
the point of a reverse is to catch the defense in a overpersuit. obviously that didn’t work but that can be as easily contributed to dallas having the right defense to counter it or even poor exicution. call it what you will, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but i don’t think it was a stupid call. if successful it could have gone for a decent amount of yards and given the team a spark early on. unsuccessful as it was it didn’t hurt us as it was early in the game and it was easily recovered from.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
with the ability of this team right now it was a bad call this team does not have the ability to make that play happen sorry
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by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you only can say that because it failed.
better teams fail at reverses all the time but no one claims that they don’t have the ability to perform it. any trick play is a gamble to catch the other team off gaurd. if it fails to catch them off guard, no amount of talent will save it.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 12:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lol
we’ve ran the reverse successfully before. Why do you think the only statistic that Quinten Lawrence has put up is a 1 rush for 16 yards?
We ran it a few times in preseason, both successful and unsuccessful.
The reverse has less to do with ability and more to do with speed and the chance of catching the defense off guard.
by Petey14 on Oct 13, 2009 7:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same goes
for the other trick play we ran.
We ran the Flea Flicker. Cassel overthrew it. Sure..the WR is covered better than we would have liked, but its not like the WR was swarmed. A good pass on that play is a huge gain, Cassel just overthrew him.
by Petey14 on Oct 13, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why was it stupid?
It is an unpredictable play at that point in the game. Like I said, it is all about execution. A reverse or double reverse is good when a line is getting beat. It can be used as a strategic move to counter DL players rushing up the middle. Why? Because they are slower and will typically over pursue a much faster player like Bradley. The play was fine, the execution was bad.
Again, look at other teams that run those types of plays. They usually have more success running them and get an average of 3 yards per play.
Now one could argue that this offensive line still isn’t good enough even when the play is designed to exploit aggressive defenses. My answer to this is simple. The Chiefs still need to continue to try and run plays even in the face of failure when the talent isn’t there. And in this case Haley is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. On one side someone will be upset that Haley is too predictable which would arise by not running plays because of the fear of not having talent or players to properly execute the play. On the other side, Haley continues to call plays that if executed would work great, but because of poor execution and lack of talent…Haley looks like a fool because he called a bad play. It is a no win situation. Bottom line…better talent and right fit will equal better play. The Chiefs just don’t have 22 starters capable of providing a productive offense.
by ChiefsFan79 on Oct 13, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leaf
you beat me to it. Work seems to think it can interupt me in the middle of a post. LOL
by ChiefsFan79 on Oct 13, 2009 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i almost wish i let you handle it
since you said it better…and have less spelling errors :p
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
if we dont have the talent then why try for it id rather see them do something that has a higher chance of moving the ball then a trick play that depends on many things going right for it to work
IMO the K-I-S-S method seems to make alot more sence with what the shiefs have as far as talent and there ability to execute.
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
This goes back to the Haley is damned...
if he does and damned if he doesn’t. In the case of the reverse it is a good play to catch the other team off guard. It is a play that more times then not will generate positive yards. Its just one play of many that did not work this past Sunday. I’m willing to bet that Haley will run it once per game, and more times then not it will result in positive yards.
by ChiefsFan79 on Oct 13, 2009 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
ill take you on that bet no money though but i am willing to bet they cant get that play to work this year more time then they do
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
one of the problems the team has
is the team as a whole thinks like the rest of the world in that there’s no way they can win. you see it in the way they play. they never have that intensity, the killer instinct that is necessary to win. they always go out and play half heartily. a trick play, while it might have less of a chance of success, can provide a boost that might be just enough to make them play with a little more intensity. a run up the middle will do nothing to help that, especially the way we’ve been doing it.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 1:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well until that can show that they can atleast do something with normal plays the trick play stuff isnt a good idea to me thats all im sayin
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm with Leaf on this one
Try anything an everything until you find a way to win.
it’s defeatist talk to say “this team isn’t good enough to run those plays”
That’s BS. they ARE good enough to run and execute plays, or they wouldn’t be in the NFL.
I think if they run up the middle, and run the same 4 plays over and over again, the chances of winning go way down.
I want to see more reverses and wildcat, get Q. Lawrence active and involved on some of them, Get LJ out of there, Get Charles/Savage, whoever involved in a dynamic offense.
Blocking is a weakness? Design plays that work, given the level of blocking we’ve seen.
You can’t win if you’re afraid to take chances.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Oct 13, 2009 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with leaf
if the trick play goes for 20 on the first play that could add a lot of fire to the team early. if it doesn’t and we lose 2 or 3, it’s not the end of the world in that situation
by E.C. on Oct 13, 2009 5:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
For the most part I agree with all the other verdicts.
Its a combination of all the above. If it isn’t poor play it seems like it is a penalty that is killing drives. And then when the Chiefs play mistake free on penalties and execution…well the play is just sometimes not the right play giving the situation. But the last one is of the least amount of worries. Until the Chiefs start executing moe regularly and stop killing themselves with penalties…Haley will probably contiue to make some stupid play calls here and there simply because he is probably trying to think of ANYTHING that could get a drive going. One more thing, coaches make stupid decisions ALL the time. BB makes up in New England. The big difference is when a team is struggling, all the mistakes made are amplified. When you’re winning, mistakes usually get ignored or are not made a big deal of.
by ChiefsFan79 on Oct 13, 2009 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
Yeah, let's just keep matriculatin' the ball down the field, boys! ...
by oldchiefsfan on Oct 13, 2009 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+ another 1
If you don't recount the problems and issues of the past you are doomed to repeat them!!!!!!!
by Fan of the Red And Gold on Oct 13, 2009 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
actually i think the bad call here was the LJ run on second and 12
if the reverse works, everybody’s happy with it; i was ok with the call, but i was pissed that bradley was running it, he’s not fast enough.
about the run. even if LJ gains 5 (nice run for most RB’s) we’re still at 3rd and 7. I know haley’s trying to be unpredictable to help give us a needed edge, but you gotta play the percentages too.
by E.C. on Oct 13, 2009 5:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yardage
They generally get poor yardage on 1st and 2nd down…and end up with 3rd and long way too much. Of the examples given, almost half were 3rd and double-digits. If we can get more 3rd and 2 or 3, or 1…our 3rd down conversion percentage would go up tremendously. That is, if we can get a running back that can gain two or three yards on a consistant basis.
by Scott B. on Oct 13, 2009 12:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And a back that doesn't fall down when someone touches them...
Tag, your it…er…your down?
If you don't recount the problems and issues of the past you are doomed to repeat them!!!!!!!
by Fan of the Red And Gold on Oct 13, 2009 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or
How about an O-Line that can get just a little bit of push, or possibly even make a hole in the defense. It is absolutely pathetic how terrible they are. The running back is hardly the problem
by Chiefs447 on Oct 13, 2009 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
+1
I don’t think Adrian Peterson would be Adrian Peterson if he had to run behind our line. He’d probably get all frustrated and go spit on girls…lol.
by Spiderwomn69 on Oct 13, 2009 2:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
IF dallas didnt Mess up
we would not have been in that game at all
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 12:16 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
muffed punt
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
what are you talking about
we wern’t in the game, we owned it. that is untill we gave it back to dallas.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
so when clayton of dallas didnt catch that punt and we got the ball back because he messed up that us owning the game ? because of luck and them not catching a punt doesnt sound like a team owning another
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no i didn't say we didn't benifit from Dallas' mistakes.
i just said we weren’t in it. we owned it. we had the lead untill the forth quarter. we just couldn’t capitalize on it. we had the game but let dallas come back and still beat us. both teams played like complete ass on sunday. it was an ugly game. if we played like we did and dallas had shown up yes we never would have been in it, but that could have been said the other way as well. if dallas played like they did on suday and we played like we did against the ravens the score would have been different.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
well with the way both teams played i dont think either team "owned" the game luck owned the game IMO
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i'll conseed to that
i was more saying that we had possession of the win and lost it rather than saying that we made it our bitch.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
we let one guy beat us well two i guess choice and austin idk so mny things were wrong this is all just a huge headache and i will be happy when its over
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome to the NFL.
Say hello to parity. Neither team took full control of that game. Fumbles are just part of the game. You can’t discredit what the Chiefs did on Sunday because Dallas fumbled twice. KC had the awareness to recover and capitalize on those turn overs. Our D held them to 3 points for 3 quarters. Cassel and the offense rallied late in the 4th and made a clutch drive. The Chiefs played good enough to win… yet bad enough to lose (if that makes any sense).
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 13, 2009 2:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not all luck
Yes Crayton dropped the ball but we recovered it, that’s good awareness on special teams, not luck, effort.
by Spiderwomn69 on Oct 13, 2009 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was at that game.....
I thought it was a great game…til the end :) I was quite happy with how we played for the most part. Did we make some errors, yeah….did they, yeah. But we certainly played well & damn sure could have had that game.
Just my opinion.
by HeatherChiefsLvr on Oct 13, 2009 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did you like arrowhead except for the opposing fans stinkin up the joint?
by Bestofthewest on Oct 13, 2009 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I loved it! Time of my life except.....
The tailgating part really stunk for us. Everyone told me that we’d be welcomed with open arms and everyone would be really friendly & let us join in on their party (especially cuz we brought our own booze) but no one did. I tried talking to several different parties & smiled & tried to make small talk & we got the brush off from just about everyone. So we were disappointed to say the least. But other than that, I loved the game & loved being there. I can’t wait to do it again.
by HeatherChiefsLvr on Oct 13, 2009 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh that's too bad sorry it wasnt what you had expected
next time will be better im sure
by Bestofthewest on Oct 13, 2009 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cant it be a combination of all 3?
That’s my vote.
Can I be your Batman?
by IISaiNtII on Oct 13, 2009 12:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
+1
Yes on all accounts
It's a good thing Pioli and Haley aren't running AP or a lot of you guys would of been traded or cut for cast offs from the Pats Pulpit.
by KCporkchop on Oct 13, 2009 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Execution
Poor play = poor execution. This is the major problem IMHO…
You can always argue that there were some poor play selections, but those will always be there. OCs change things up and try different things to catch the defense off-guard. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn’t. Hard to fault someone for trying to change things up.
I’d also submit that alot of those times that some argue the play selection was bad, it was probably the result of poor execution. The two are hard to distinguish.
"Every day is an evaluation and if you’re not out there how can we depend on you? If you’re out there and you don’t know what to do, how can we depend on you?" Accountability -- Haley-style...
by Chief_Elmo on Oct 13, 2009 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm not going to dog on Haley for the play calling
He’s trying to do something. Anything. I can’t say I blame him. Unfortunately, the team isn’t executing, so trick plays are going to be criticized much more than they would from a winning team. WRs are dropping passes. The OL is soft. LJ is dragging his feet rather than violently hitting even the smallest gaps. I like Cassel, and think he’s going to be our long term answer, but he’s in charge of keeping the team on task. He needs to be a better leader. They’ll get it together, but it’s going to take a lot of blood and sweat until then. This team needs leaders and play makers to step up.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 13, 2009 12:47 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Until recently I have been against this but...
I think LJ is a part of the problem right now, and no the soltion. Up until now I’ve always defended him. I’ve given him the benefit of the doubt and figured the OL was causing a lot of his problems. I’m not so sure anymore. Charles has an explosive first step and a shiftiness that LJ seems to have lost. Aside from his fumbling issues, what would we have to lose to try Charles over LJ? It’s time to gamble. Explosive playmaker that fumbles over a RB that hasn’t been the same since his 400+ carry season. Charles might lose the ball, but he also might break off a big run for big yards. LJ has become stagnant. He probably won’t fumble, but he also probably won’t move much at all. Haley’s always said he’ll field the best player that can help us win, and right now that’s not LJ.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 13, 2009 12:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
there is another guy who makes big plays but fumbles the ball alot
his name is adrian peterson im not comparing the two or saying charles will do what peterson does but they have some similarities when you think about the big play ability and fumble problem
Check out the gun show over here FIYA POWA
by redmedicone on Oct 13, 2009 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
It’s time to mix things up.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 13, 2009 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i agree with you two
why not give the guy a shot. can’t do our running game any harm.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Charles fumbles far more often, far more, in terms of touches per fumble.
"What?!?! I aint no Obama for the weed!"
-Turk McBride
by HIV 2 Elway on Oct 13, 2009 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah....
But this team is bogging down on offense. LJ just isn’t getting the yards. If not Charles then maybe Savage. They’re similar runners.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 13, 2009 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm still waiting on that home run hit from Charles
by Chiefs447 on Oct 13, 2009 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm a little biased...
but if Kolby Smith’s knee is solid… I would like to see what his tank has to give the team.
by ravenhawk on Oct 13, 2009 1:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it all of the above.
but for the most part when i played basketball we had this play the entire gym knew it was coming even the team they called it out before we ran the play but our execution was so spot on there was nothing they could do about it. When we had the dominant oline with priest holmes the entire stadium knew what we were going to do . It was simple we are doing to pound the rock down your throat and execute from the start till the end of the game. ITs just that simple run your plays know your roll and kick ass . They cant stop it if you execute .
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
by sexassassin on Oct 13, 2009 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
thank you i need to be a coach for kansas city i would slap cottam in the face
dorsey in the face . I would be like dorsey what the fuck happend to you lets see some head bombing around here get hyped . blow by someone get leverage. i would tell the entire defense to defend this fields honor . I would tell matt cassel to rip someone a new one if they dont execute the plays . i would tell larry johnson to sit back and watch me take snaps and show him how to gain hard yards. then i would call in jim brown to talk to him and punch him in the face and say look douche you will never be me if you give up on every play. get some heart larry but show a pulse out there crack the whip on these lineman
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
by sexassassin on Oct 13, 2009 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Agree With This Post.
More Slapping needs to occur in the Chiefs locker room. Heck, I would like to see it on the sidelines as well…
by Skrappy on Oct 13, 2009 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
our oline is the problem for us right now i know if we fixed that line and got some games
in there. our entire team would instantly benefit we would make first downs we can control clock and we can keep the defense off the field. its that simple we need an oline. thats it.
FOUR F'S FIND UM FEEL UM FUGUM FORGET UM.
by sexassassin on Oct 13, 2009 12:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeppers
I watched the game again on DVR and about vomited when the announcers gave the stat of 38 pass attempts by Cassel…. with 4 sacks and 24 hits (not exact on the numbers but I’m not very far off). On one particular play towards the end of the game Dallas rushed 3 and Cassel was under duress. And Waters got flagged for holding. I mean seriously. What. The. Fuck.
With that said, I’m high on Cassel. He shows gritty determination and the clutch TD on 4th and 7 with a 16 yard strike to Bowe between 2 defenders just made my weekend. At that point I knew, win or lose, we finally have our franchise QB.
About the Chiefs: I'd rather be a realist than a pessimist
by Red N Gold Beast on Oct 13, 2009 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It has become next to impossible to defend LJ
I have also defended LJ to a fault the last several years, but he looks like he simply doesn’t care. It seems he has wisely decided to keep his mouth shut, but is accomplishing the same “attitude” by lack of effort on the field.
LJ aside, the primary thing I am beyond sick of is the lack of “moxie” from the entire team. They LOOK like the don’t belong there! Where is the fire? Attitude? Ironically, one of the best examples of this fire I want to see came in the Raiders game when LJ made it past the line and knocked some LB (don’t recall name) on his friggen ass!
Win or lose, I MUST SEE more fire from these guys, because the whole team looks like it’s simply going through the motions WAY to often.
by Chiefs_Ragnarok on Oct 13, 2009 1:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
This is why the Broncos are Winning
They approach the field every week planning on winning the game and never give up. They are not resorting to the poor em, poor us attitude when things get tough and the game becomes challenging. WE NEED THAT IN KC!!!
Get out there and HURT SOMEBODY!!!
by Skrappy on Oct 13, 2009 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Tend to Think They are All Poor Play
There is no doubt that you need talent to succeed in the NFL, but you cannot hampstring yourself by becomoing predicatble. If a play Haley calls turns into a huge gain, then he is the Man, if it fails then it is his fault. I believe that Haley is a great offensive mind, so I also think he is seeing things in defenses that can be taken advantage of, the players are just not executing them properly. Talent is the main issue, and it is the O-Line…
by Skrappy on Oct 13, 2009 1:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I've got to say I think it is all three.
A reverse would have worked, the double reverse just put use into the original over pursuit. The Glen Mason draw play needs to go, it’s become the most obvious play we have. Haley the head coach might need to fire Haley the O coordinator. I think LJ needs deactivated for a game, lets see what Charles, Savage, and Battle can do with more touches. No intensity in this team. Maybe one of the reasons for the mental errors and poor play?
by BarryS on Oct 13, 2009 1:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Penalties and Poor Play go hand in hand.
If you are playing poorly you are going to have penalties called against you.
With all the injuries to the offensive line that had occured Sunday… it is going to be a very long year.
by ravenhawk on Oct 13, 2009 1:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What surprised me...
Was I think we actually converted more third downs in the second half and we only took one penalty and had one sack against in the first half. The first down plays haven’t been bad and like Haley said yesterday theres still a lot of work to go on execution. The second down plays at times are curious. Ultimately I think the issue is negative plays more then it is third down conversions. Eliminate all the negative plays or at least to a reasonable amount and the other offensive stats will correct themselves. 15 negative plays sunday and Haley said 12 were execution issues and the other 3 are on him.
"Success is never ending, failure is never final."
by GenericBrand on Oct 13, 2009 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What i dont like is...
in the last few games, we came out in the first possession and tried a little wildcat, last week the flea flicker and reverse….and then you never saw any of it again throughout the rest of the game! Trick plays ar meant to get big yardage, and to keep a Defense honest…if your going to use it…really use it….if you do it more than once a game on your first possession, the defense has to play back on their heels a bit….Thus far, i am not impressed with Haleys play calling. Draw plays, 3 yrd passes on 3rd and 15,its just ugly…and i dont know why in the hell Charles or Savage or ANYBODY with some speed, does not get more carries. I know Charles fumbles, but if your that scared to use the fastest guy on the team then get rid of his ass!!!LJ is an inside runner…Our O line sucks too bad to run INSIDE!..We have to get to the outside and LJ does not have the speed to get there….I live in Phoenix, so ive seen haleys offense quit a bit from when he was with the cardinals…It was awesome…I know he does not have the same players or weapons, but i just scratch my head at some of the shit he calls now..
by KCinAZ on Oct 13, 2009 2:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Good point!!!
in the last few games, we came out in the first possession and tried a little wildcat, last week the flea flicker and reverse….and then you never saw any of it again throughout the rest of the game! Trick plays ar meant to get big yardage, and to keep a Defense honest…if your going to use it…really use it….if you do it more than once a game on your first possession, the defense has to play back on their heels a bit….
I agree!! Mix it up… ALL GAME… not just the first drive.
and dump the Draw play from the shotgun formation… that should only work against prevent defenses.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Oct 13, 2009 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thus far, i am not impressed with Haleys play calling. Draw plays, 3 yrd passes on 3rd and 15,its just ugly
yes it’s ugly but you got to understand that team haley has at this finger tips. if it was me as the coach i’d probably do the same. look at what happens when we try to air it out. cassel over/under throws, gets sacked, or the receivers drop the ball. sure the occasional play happens, but right now it’s not working too well. don’t get me wrong, i’m so in love with cassel that my wife is jealous, but right now the chemistry is off and it’s obvious. so as a coach what do you do when you can’t play the long game. you try to nickel and dime it. unfortunately our team sucks so bad we can’t even do a 3-5 yard play right.
by Leaf on Oct 13, 2009 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i understand what your saying....
but when something is not working you find something that does….just like Chan Gailey did last yr…if you cant run inside, you run outside, if the RB(LJ) your using cant get it done, you replace him with someone faster and more mobile, if your QB is getting sacked every other play by standing in the pocket, then you move him out of the pocket. And I like Cassel, but IMO, I think our offense looked better against the Ravens when Croyle started…I think Croyle has a better arm, better accuracy on the deep ball, and can fit the ball into smaller windows, and i think he gets rid of the ball faster….two things Croyle lacks is mobility and a 60 million dollar contract…Is he fragile…maybe, or maybe those injuries would have happened to ANY QB that was back there….And im tellin ya, if Cassel cant get rid of the ball faster, he will be on the PUP list very soon…No Qb in the league can withstand being hit or sacked 20+ times a game.
by KCinAZ on Oct 13, 2009 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was totally agreeing with you... untill you mentioned Croyle
Cassel CAN get the job done, and has shown that. He’s shown far more than Croyle, when given the chance.
I was agreeing with the “but when something is not working you find something that does….”
I don’t think they should beat their collective heads against the wall by running up the middle, and dropping back to pass on 3rd down… try different RB, try different plays and formations, rollouts, etc.
whatever it takes to win.
But, Cassel IS the QB and leader of this offense, and he proved that again against Dallas.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Oct 13, 2009 4:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
he is the leader of an offense that cannot move the ball....im just sayin
by KCinAZ on Oct 13, 2009 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
go check out
the stat line on Croyles game against the Ravens and Cassels game against the Giants….Both very good defenses….I just think Cassel misses too many throws when they are ACTUALLY there to make.He gave a valiant effort in the Cowboys game, but he got good field position in the first half, and then didnt really show up til the end of the 4th quarter…I know it wasnt all his fault, but when your the leader of the offense……
by KCinAZ on Oct 13, 2009 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
they move it pretty well in the 4th quarters of games
yes, he’s missed some throws…
but there’s no comparison between him and Croyle.
I watched Croyle attempt to be the leader of an offense that couldnt move the ball over the last few years… but he couldn’t get a win ever… or stay off of IR.
Seriously, Croyle is NOT an upgrade over Cassel in any way, IMO.
* "I doubt anyone will miss Connor Barth except UCrawford"
* the LB corps may become the biggest strength of the Chiefs in 2009
* The OL is NOT as bad as you think it is... give it time, and you'll see improvement this season
by stagdsp on Oct 13, 2009 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
All...
3. They all kill us, and unfortunately they take turns instead of doing it on the same play. Either there is no flag, but someone trips over his own feet, OR we get a great play, but someone is holding on a play where the defender who was held wasn’t even in the play. Then we have momentum on our side and Haley calls that play that looks like its actually designed for LJ to gain 1 yard. You all know which one I mean. In Haley’s defense, He is keeping the Defense honest. This loss hurt. Im not down on the Chiefs, but this one hurt. It is so scary how good we could be if we could ever fire on all cylinders at the same time.
by Enite on Oct 13, 2009 9:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And Croyle is no where near Cassel
You have basically 3 types of QB in the league……..1. The QB with no arm, but great accuracy or touch. (Brad Johnson, Damon Huard). 2. The QB with a cannon arm, but zero accuracy or touch (Jamarcus Russell, Brodie Croyle) 3. The QB’s with both. (Peyton Manning, Tom Brady) The great QB’s have both. Matt Cassel has both. Now he is not Manning or Brady, but he has the tools. If you watch Brodie, he always throws darts straight into the hands, or straight into the numbers. I have never seen him float a ball gently over the heads of defenders. Thats why You dont see much of Brodie throwing many deep balls. Also, let me add that Brodie is so much better than Russell right now. I wasnt comparing the players, just the styles.
by Enite on Oct 13, 2009 9:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
On the reverse
I was going back and looking at film for my column and examined this play.
From my view, the play actually looked pretty well set up, but either C Niswinger or Larry Johnson was the culprit in letting Keith Brooking get through. Either Johnson should have been blocking someone or Rudy shouldn’t have taken the next level block and let Brooking get to the ball carrier.
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by Bryan Everson (The Royalty of Roto) on Oct 14, 2009 2:46 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
In all fairness..
Neither one of them has a chance to show what they can really do because of the piece of shit o-line…When Croyle did get his opportunities, he was running for his life just like Cassel is now…Its hard to evaluate a QB on a team this bad…but i predicted before the season started that Croyle would win the back up spot ahead of Thigpen, and the rumors during training camp was that Croyle was the best QB in camp…Croyle got a bad rap because of injuries….Some people call it fragile…i call it a shit o-line that cant protect their QB….honestly I will be surprised if Cassel makes it through the season..He has already had one injury that has kept him out of a couple preseason games and one in the regular season…..I hope he stays healthy, but at this rate, it dont look good.
by KCinAZ on Oct 14, 2009 2:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
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