Rationalization And Myth-Making: The Story Of The 2008 Chiefs' Improvement
by UCrawford on Jan 15, 2009 2:05 PM CST
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PrintFrom the FanPosts. -Chris
Throughout the season, commenters at Arrowhead Pride have gone back and forth at each other over the progress they feel the team did, or didn't, make under the direction of head coach, Herm Edwards.
Today, Martin Manley at "Upon Further Review" did a statistical breakdown showing that two of the oft-cited accomplishments for Herm's 2008 Chiefs were more smoke-and-mirrors than signs of actual improvement.
Take the oft-cited "close losses"
Of course, the main argument you hear from the Hermites is that we lost a bunch of close games we could have won… if … if …. if only…. Logic would dictate the Chiefs would win some of those the following year and, thus, have several more wins on that basis alone. The point being that Herm can’t be blamed for the unlucky bounce of the ball. In some situations I might agree. However, this certainly isn’t one of them.
Different reference sources give slightly different numbers, but historically, between 44%-46% of all NFL games are lost (or won) by seven points or less. One of the arguments you hear is that Kansas City lost a bunch of close games they could have won. They lost seven by seven points or less and they lost seven by eight points or more. So, that means 50% of their losses were “close”. The historical NFL average is 45%. I ran the numbers for 2008 and it was 47%. So, where is the basis for arguing the Chiefs had some unique corner on the close game market? Clearly they don’t!
If you want to argue you should have had a better record than you did, you need to be one of these teams. San Diego lost their eight games by 2, 1, 7, 9, 5, 1, 3, 6. Even the game they lost by 8+ was only nine! You want to argue you were better than your record? Ok, if you are San Diego, I can buy it. If you are KC, I can’t.
Fact is that the seven games that were close losses weren't in any way statistically significant or indicative of progress. They were right in line with the average number of close games that every other team in the NFL has, and the Chiefs lost all but one of them (Oakland being the exception). Add onto that, that the Chiefs lost almost half of their games by 10 points or more and all that points to is a really ugly season from a really bad team with not much in the way of hope for improvement in 2009 if they ran the same system.
And there's also an argument that the Chiefs were worse than their record indicated:
Kansas City was +5 and ranked #8 in the league in turnovers. Despite this advantage, they ended 2-14. Kansas City lost five close games (of the seven) in which they had less turnovers than their opponents. In fact, in those five losses, the average margin of defeat was by 3.2 points per game, yet they won the turnover battle 13-3! Clearly, the only logical explanation for why the games were as close as they were is because of the huge advantage KC enjoyed on interceptions and fumbles. Rather than winning those games next season as the Hermites would have you believe, they should be expected to lose them by an even greater margin!
The point is that when turnovers revert to the mean, the team has a worse record the following year (on average).
So even if the coaching staff were kept around to "finish what they started" a regression to league average on 2008's flukishly high turnover rate would actually make it more difficult to recreate even the minimal successes the team had this year...making yet another 4-12 or 2-14 season a distinct possibility.
Fortunately the Chiefs' new GM, Scott Pioli, strikes me as a man who's not prone to overlooking statistics like this that have a direct impact on a team's wins or losses, which is one of many reasons that I truly believe Herm Edwards will not be returning to Kansas City for the 2009 season. Nor should Chiefs fans be particularly unhappy if that turns out to be the case as there aren't too many coaches that Pioli's likely to be considering who would create an output less hopeful than what the Chiefs did in 2008.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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I agree
But my god man you are a glutton for punishment
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
Damn, UC on the front page!
Goes to show you are not a retart!:) Nice job, backed by sources, and stats.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Nice work
I’d be curious to see how 2007 Miami stacks up to numbers like this. I know they had a large group of games they lost by one score or less.
exactly
Everyone is ridding the coat tales of these guys but the reality is they played losing teams all year long . Then they got to the playoffs and played a real D and got crushed . Thats what happens when you play a weak schedule .
Which of course is helped by the fact
that the Dolphins won a bunch of those games
just like the fact that the Chiefs lost 14 games inflates their SOS to 4th toughest.
Duh
I’m looking at the SOS at the beginning of 2008. Not the end.
by Joel Thorman on Jan 15, 2009 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Retart!:)
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Good job in digging this up UC
The stats were written by Martin Manley so he deserves a lot of the credit but UC’s argument to support the empirical evidence is correct.
I’m a little disappointed that I didn’t take the time to look up the numbers myself ;) I feel like a Thomas Edison to a Nikola Tesla.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
Thigpen WILL NOT be the Chiefs starting QB next year IMO. He can compete for the job and should be 2nd or 3rd string.
The Credit's All Manley's
It was his article and his research, I just regurgitated it. All I added to it was my agreement with what he said and my opinion that it should be a primary reason not to retain Herm.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
You still found it...good dig :)
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
Thigpen WILL NOT be the Chiefs starting QB next year IMO. He can compete for the job and should be 2nd or 3rd string.
Excellent post UC
You’ve made me even more positive that Herm and his staff really need to go… the “7 by less than 7” arguement was really getting to me, I was starting to think “you know, we really should give him his last year, what could it hurt, and Cowher will be available in 2010…”, but I’m fired up now – why would such a nice guy like Herm try to deceive us and sugar coat the truth? BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS HE SUCKS!!!!
Well another HC candidate off the list.
Per ESPN, Lions and Jim Schwartz agree in principle on contract to become Lions HC.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
If that's true, God help Jim Schwartz's soul
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
Wish we could get this anouncement.
This is making me even more insane!!!
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
I'm Not Worried About It
If we got Spagnuolo I’d be happy and if we get someone else I’m willing to give Pioli the benefit of the doubt for finding a good candidate. There are still people out there.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
What you need to Realize
Man you guys call yourselves Chief Fans. I am disapointed. What you need to realize is that this was the youngest team in the NFL, along with that this was one of the top teams with the most injuries, and dont tell me that injurie dont matter. When you have half of your defensive starters out and then a quarter of thier back ups out you got disaster written all over. Then to top things off you have your star player spitting on people and you cant keep a QB upright. I mean come on how can you sit on your high horse and dog this team’s Valiant effort. Loss after loss this team continued to play thier hearts out and all you can say is look at the numbers. Look at these numbers 10 teams we played this year had winning records, and 5 (6 if you count the Chargers twice)of those teams were in the playoffs. Not too mention the Titans, Buccs, and Panthers had some of the leagues best defenses. So before you talk smack and want to put numbers in the mix. Do yourself a favor and really look at the numbers.
I dont think we called into question any of the players efforts
other than I called DJ out on his performance. What most of us are calling into question is the facts that the coaches never were able to make adjustments at half time, when the other teams did to win the games. Those statistics are real and have been readily available in several posts recently.
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
I also sit on my horse all the time,
although its rather short. :)
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Okay
Good point, but out of all that that is your only argument. You dont think that the 3rd quarter was due to an inexpierienced team. I mean come on the average age was what? 25 or 26. How many rookies started and all but 2 played. I dont know about you but I listened or watched every single game and those guys fought and they fought hard coaches included.
Were not saying they didnt
try of course they tried i think we can all agree on that . We know they are young but this is what herm wanted and this is the record we have.
Actually
if you’re going to throw those type of defenses around, you need to have your facts straight.
The average age of the Miami Dolphins was 25.7 years of age. They were constantly called “old.” I forget what the average age of the Chiefs are, but they are the youngest team.
But to argue back, all facets of the team were inexperienced. Coaching included.
The Day Herm Edwards didn't get his team ready to beat the Raiders at Arrowhead is the day he kissed his job goodbye.
So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehn GOODBYYYEE!
Key Players
So the 3 out of 5 years Herm took the Jets to the playoffs was a fluke? You guys need to have a little faith. I personally say give him his last year and if he still fails then let him go.
Was it a fluke?
Who cares…he never made it past the divisional round and won his division once. He’s a coach that has more losses than wins.
by Joel Thorman on Jan 15, 2009 4:31 PM CST up reply actions
That wasnt my only argument
I have alot going on right now and thats all I had time for.
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Lanier63
Exactly the coaches failed time after time to rally the troops in the 3rd qtr and not able to make adjustments. time after time we lost a game in like 70 something seconds up by two scores that is basically impossible who does that we lost . The blame is some on the players and mostly by the coaches we should have never lost the close games. never.
You haven’t called players efforts into question. Well guess what, you probably should. It’s not just physical effort but mental equally as well. If you listened to Pioli, and listened well, one would know how important this is. He stated it quite clearly when he said he will review tape to see if players were in their assignments, in the coverage called for.
Granted, I was not able to see one game as this team was so awfull the previous year to not warrant a national TV broadcast, but I did listen to every game. When I here the announcer call the game with “screen pass to Sproles, DJ is there and….misses the tackle”, “Hali shoots the gap, makes the hit……but doesn’t wrap up on the tackle”, “onside kick, DBowe has the ball……Chargers ball…. he never secured it”. What exactly should I conclude? Poor coaching or poor play?
by BCRavenJHawkfan on Jan 15, 2009 5:00 PM CST up reply actions
I think that I remember someone posting something the other day
showing that we were actually only in the middle of the pack when it came to injuries.
Unlike GMDM I refuse to trade my EL CID avatar until Jacobs proves his worth.
Holy Shit!!!...Peterson resigned...Am I dead?...Is This Heaven?
by RoyalsFanStuckInCardsLand on Jan 15, 2009 3:20 PM CST up reply actions
Pretty sure it was Rick Gosselin
of the Dallas Morning News
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
Ya they did
But the injurys we had were all our key starters qb linebackers corners we lost everyone
So What?
What you need to realize is that this was the youngest team in the NFL
The Packers were the youngest team in the NFL last year and they went 13-3. Being young is not an excuse for being this bad.
along with that this was one of the top teams with the most injuries,
Actually the Chiefs were one of the least injured teams in the NFL last year…the idea that we were unbelievably plagued with injuries was a myth.
When you have half of your defensive starters out and then a quarter of thier back ups out you got disaster written all over.
All teams deal with injuries. The problem was that most of those players didn’t produce when they were healthy either.
I mean come on how can you sit on your high horse and dog this team’s Valiant effort.
Because they’ve won 6 games in the last two years. That’s not being valiant, that’s just being terrible.
Loss after loss this team continued to play thier hearts out and all you can say is look at the numbers.
Yup, because the numbers usually tell the story. And most players in the NFL play hard each week. If they don’t, they lose their jobs. I don’t care if they tried hard when they only won 2 games. Apparently they either didn’t try hard enough or they aren’t good enough to be in the NFL.
Look at these numbers 10 teams we played this year had winning records, and 5 (6 if you count the Chargers twice)of those teams were in the playoffs.
Largely helped by those teams playing us. We actually had the 26th toughest schedule in the NFL going into this year, out of 32 teams.
Not too mention the Titans, Buccs, and Panthers had some of the leagues best defenses.
And they got killed by two of those teams and blew a three TD lead to the third one. So what if the teams we played were tough? Big deal. All of the teams in the NFL are tough matchups. Losing all but two of your games isn’t acceptable no matter how many good teams you play.
So before you talk smack and want to put numbers in the mix. Do yourself a favor and really look at the numbers.
We did, and they all back up our arguments. Especially the one where the team went 2-14.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
And Just To Be Clear
The biggest reason the young players didn’t succeed this year was because the coaching staff rarely put them in a position to succeed. They were consistently outcoached this year.
Put a good head coach on this team with the current talent level and I could see the Chiefs winning 9 games next year. Keep Herm in charge and they’ll be lucky to win four.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Good point
Ya position was everything dorsey was getting mauled up front all day long because he lined up over center. Even whitlock pointed that out and then the last game dorsey actually did not line up over center and he actually got some push inside i think it was his best game. If a reporter is changing ur scheme then you know you are getting out coached.
What looked really bad was when Brian Waters
questioned the positions the coaches were putting Dorsey in.
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
lanier
Oh man that is so horrible that tells you the coaches have no clue sometimes you have to take advice from your players i mean think about it waters is a pro bowler i think he knows exactly how he can be beat or not beat on a play . These coaches must go we need fresh blood with an open relation with the players this is horrible
by sexassassin on Jan 16, 2009 10:45 AM CST up reply actions
citation needed
Actually the Chiefs were one of the least injured teams in the NFL last year…the idea that we were unbelievably plagued with injuries was a myth.
Not that I don’t believe you, I just wonder if they track which positions are injured. We may have not had the most injuries, but didn’t it seem like they always piled up on one or two spots?
Surtain, Flowers, were out at the same time, and I think Leggett even went down for a bit in one of those games (leaving Carr and Colcough as our starting CB’s)
Linebackers was the other position that was hit pretty hard
It Was Discussed A Couple Of Days Ago
Here on AP…not sure where but it pointed out that we were not one of the most injured teams in the NFL.
No idea on how the injuries were spread out, but aside from QB (which was largely the fault of the Chiefs anointing Brodie Croyle and ignoring the line last offseason) I don’t recall the team getting decimated by injuries at any one position. Their biggest problem was that they had no depth, which was also the Chiefs’ own fault and not an issue of luck.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Here is the link
Scroll down to see the comparison chart of all 32 NFL teams
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
Linebackers
They just played shitty all year. Donnie Edwards was out, but the again he was old and had started getting dinged up last season so it probably wasn’t the smartest idea for the Chiefs to dump their leading tackler from last season (Napoleon Harris) just because Gunther didn’t like him. Derrick Johnson played most of his games, DeMorrio Williams was available for most of the games, Pat Thomas was available for most of the games…the only reason it looked like the linebacking corp was hit so hard was because the Chiefs screwed up their depth, which was their own fault.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
We stand by Napoleon Harris Being a bum of the first order
Somebody said ‘right’ 53 guys not ‘best’ 53, we forget who.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Jan 15, 2009 4:35 PM CST up reply actions
That Would Be
A guy who had nothing to do with last year’s team. :)
And while Harris was not great by any stretch, he was a hell of a lot better than Thomas or Williams.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
We're not defending this line of argument (2-14 and we'll point you to the pitchforks)
But Harris is a bum, regardless of GM, regardless of HC, regardless of DC, we’re thrilled he’s in Minnesota and not here.
Apply your classic unknown > shitty individual we got (vs. a devil we know vs. a devil we don’t) and wouldn’t it be better to see what Thomas or Williams was rather than watch a money stealing malcontent drag-ass all season 7 yd.s behind the line of scrimmage. Better to know we have two shitty ILBs than one decent ILB whose a locker room cancer and doesn’t try.
In short, if a player is a douchebag and unable to overcome that fatal flaw when he’s on a shitty team, when he’s on a winning team, that douchebag landmine is just covered up.
Use it however you want re: Carl, Herm, Gunther, but totally irrespective of that: you generally have to concede Nap Harris is an overrated, self-interested, greedy douchebag.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Jan 15, 2009 4:47 PM CST up reply actions
I Would Have Been Thrilled He Was In Minnesota
If a) he hadn’t been our leading tackler last year, b) our linebacking corps wasn’t thin already, c) Gunther wasn’t an extremely questionable caliber of linebacking coach, d) Donnie Edwards wasn’t ancient and e) we weren’t replacing Harris with Pat Thomas.
I’m not even going to pretend that he’s that good. But he was better than most of what we put out there this year.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Also
I can’t help but wonder how much of that “malcontent” tag here was a result of having to work with Gunther as a LB coach.
And
you generally have to concede Nap Harris is an overrated, self-interested, greedy douchebag.
Only one of those descriptors is really a problem for me…the others aren’t necessarily bars to being a productive player.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
i agreee
ANd he went back to minn and like actually played jesus we let that guy and he was still standing that is insane .
With the Williams's and Jared Allen
Standing pat: Harris is a douchebag
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Jan 15, 2009 4:53 PM CST up reply actions
Conceded
But he was still better than what the Chiefs replaced him with.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Talent-wise, no
But if cutting him brings us Rey Maualuga, overall it worked out in our opinion.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Jan 15, 2009 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
Also True
But I’m a believer in the idea that you don’t play for the draft pick, nor do you give credit to the team for fucking up enough to get a good draft pick.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Nap Harris needed to go
The one thing you keep comming back to in your argument is that he was the leading tackler on the team. Leading the team in tackles is one of those stats that doesn’t really tell the truth. It reminds me of the interceptions by a cornerback stat.
If he led the team in tackles that just means that the center of the defensive line was absolutely horrid at stopping the opponents run game, and the opposing RB’s almost always got the the second level. Nap was there to clean up the tackle because he spent most of his time standing around in the middle of the field with his thumb up his ass.
His tackles were a product of Boone/Edwards/Tyler’s ineptitude, not his own skill or talent.
Didn’t Glenn Dorsey lead the team in tackles this season? Does that make him a success at his position?
The Powers Of Astute Observation Are Often Mistaken As Cynacism By Those That Do Not Posses Them -- G.B. Shaw
by Texas Chief on Jan 15, 2009 11:31 PM CST up reply actions
Tackles
Being the leading tackler didn’t make him an All-Pro, but it made him more capable than Williams, Thomas or Edwards, who weren’t even able (because of talent or injury) to stay in the lineup for the full season.
You’re confusing my argument that he was capable with me saying that he was really good. He wasn’t really good, but he was better than what the Chiefs replaced him with, which was a large part of why the Chiefs had one of the worst defenses in the NFL this year (as opposed to the middling defense they had when Harris was here).
Didn’t Glenn Dorsey lead the team in tackles this season? Does that make him a success at his position?
Actually, that would be Bernard Pollard who led the team in tackles. Glenn Dorsey was the best rookie defensive tackle in the NFL this season. And if Dorsey had led the team in tackles and the Chiefs decided to replace him with someone like Ryan Sims or Junior Siavii (which is the equivalent of what they did with Harris) the Chiefs would be idiots for doing so.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Exactly.
Linebackers. Corners. And, obviously, Quarterback.
There weren’t widespread injuries, but the injuries all occurring at the same couple of spots and getting down past the third or fourth guy on the depth chart was the issue.
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
LB and QB Problems Can Be Directly Attributed To Managerial Incompetence
The linebacking corps injuries were made worse because the Chiefs dumped Napoleon Harris in favor of Pat Thomas and signed a mediocre free agent linebacker who was so unappealing (DeMorrio Williams) that they gave up on him halfway through the first year of his contract. That’s Herm and Carl’s own fault for screwing up their depth.
QB was even more their fault for ignoring the o-line when they had a guy with Croyle’s injury history and a guy as old as Huard under center. No sympathy there either.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Dont give me
the youngest team in the league crap, Green bay was the youngest team in the league in 2007 and went to the NFC championship game… just saying.
That HOf GB
didnt play on thier defense.. and thier defense was young and good.. similiar to ours but we sucked.
Mr. Manley just kicked that straw man sqahre in the nutz
So, where is the basis for arguing the Chiefs had some unique corner on the close game market?
At least here on AP, I haven’t heard anyone who mentioned all the close games we lost as some kind of unique happening…
Here are my premises
1) Most NFL teams are close enough talent wise that a big mistake one way or the other can swing the game – especially when the mistake leads to 7 points (either for the other team, or from your own team, like throwing a INT in the endzone)
2) Rookies and young players, on average, make more mistakes than veterans
3)Football players learn to make fewer mistakes as their career progresses, or they get the boot.
4)In a close game, one mistake can be the difference between winning and losing
Whenever I or anyone else on AP has mentioned the number of close games it was always with these premises in mind.
The Chiefs did not have a corner on the close losses market.
They did have a corner on the “young players do dumb shit sometimes” market -like our idiot LB gap control in the Titans game – when the two non-DJ linebackers ran into the same hole (one guy actually ran into the other guy’s back) and fatty Lendale White ran out of a different hole for the longest TD run by a fat guy ever =)
or our idiot zone coverage in the first SD game, when Colcough (the nickelback) should have been, I don’t know, covering his zone in the middle of the endzone, instead of making out with our linebackers at the 3 yard line
The conclusion I draw from this is that as our players gain experience, they will make less dumb shit young player mistakes, and eventually more of those 7 point games will go our way
I've Heard It Mentioned Frequently
I don’t think I’ve ever heard you say it, but others have quite often when defending Herm. It’s usually accompanied by the “the players are really trying” excuse.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
+1.
It’s not just the injuries and having to be replaced with guys who’ve been riding their couches at home until the Chiefs called. It’s not just the close games. It’s not just the young players making dumb mistakes. And, it’s not just Herm’s ability (or lack thereof) to make adjustments, or manage the clock, or whatever.
It’s a combination of all of those things. People who dislike Herm seem to like to ignore the three former things in favor of the latter when they all played into it …
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
We're Not Ignoring It
A lot of that was Carl Peterson’s responsibility to fix. Which is why a lot of people who want Herm gone now were happy when Carl Peterson got removed.
Plenty of blame to go around for the season, Herm’s just getting hit now because he hasn’t been fired yet.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
That and
this rashly inexperienced roster that went 2-14 has his stamp all over it
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
And ...
… it’ll still be ‘his stamp’ when they stop making dumb, rookie mistakes and start winning. Because they’re still all the guys that he picked, cultivated, and put together.
Except that he won’t get any credit for putting them together.
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
You know it wasn't a rookie
mistake that cost us San Diego at home.
Just sayin.
The only measure of true success in the NFL is the Vince Lombardi trophy. Anything less is a rationalization.
Or New England In Week 1
There’s an argument to be made, by the way, that Dwayne Bowe stagnated and perhaps even regressed this season. He got two more TDs and a few more receptions, but he also did less with those receptions on average then he did last year, even after going to an offense that was more pass-heavy.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
And Gets Over His Case Of The Dropsies
His hands kind of blew this season…I think he had a sophomore slump.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
unfortunately
his college career was full of them too.
This could be a reversion to form
The only measure of true success in the NFL is the Vince Lombardi trophy. Anything less is a rationalization.
Hopefully Not
That would be depressing. We’ve already seen Tamba Hali show why people thought he was a reach in the first round. And if Bowe busts, that 2007 draft is going to look very, very bleak.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Tamba
Hes still good he actually sets examples and has good work ethic and he holds the end pretty well he just cant be the guy he gets pressure but we just need another stud on the other side tamba is a good tackler and i cant even count how many times i see that guy hustle down field to make a tackle i love that guy but like i said he just needs help on the other side.
mcbride
What is your opinion about mcbride he looks like he is thinking to much out there although i will say he did show some improvement this year .
Not Sure
He certainly needs to get his emotions in check out there and quit pulling stupid penalties. But he’s been really underwhelming for two years now and he’s not much of a pass-rusher except in preseason.
I think we’ll know exactly what kind of a player he is by the end of next year, but right now it’s not looking promising.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
ya mcbride
I have hope for him but you never know hopefully he can get it together.If he played well he would save us a lot of time.
Ya
He killed me this year some of the most easiest passes he just droped very heart breaking but he needs to bounce back real quick im sure he will i have faith in him.
2009
a new year with new posibilities. Hopefully we’ll have new coaching to go with a new GM. There will be changes in the line up, some probably painful. But my god I love my chiefs, win or lose.
by kcfaninsandiego on Jan 15, 2009 3:28 PM CST reply actions
Herm the Chiefs killer
Youth and luck and everything else aside he is a horrific gameday coach and if God is not mocking us, giving us Pioli and snatching back all hope cursing us with Herm, he will be gone. This team is miserably coached. I don’t feel sorry for him, he’ll get a nice check and a studio job where nhe can regale America with his homespun b.s. He’d be better than Marino, Boomer and Sharpe anyway.
Last time i checked
its hard to be a good leader when you are buddies with everyone that you are trying to lead.
That must be ...
… why everyone in Indianapolis hates Tony Dungy.
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
He Wasn't Buddies With His Players
Ask Ed Johnson.
Dungy wasn’t a screamer, but he got his people to perform everywhere he coached. Herm hasn’t, and that’s why people call him soft and ineffective.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Im talking players
Its hard to make a decision that benefits the whole when you are a good friend with your subudorinate and it effects them negativley
Haven't we been here before
Tony Dungy won football games.
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
Not the point.
He’s still buddies with the guys on his team. And, he still manages to be a strong leader.
And, I bet you that everyone in that Chiefs locker room, despite being ‘buddies’ with Herm, is going to tell you that he’s a damn good coach and is doing the right thing for this team.
Brian Waters has said so. Tony Gonzalez has said so. Hell, Tony wants to leave if they don’t keep Herm. How much more endorsement of the guy do you need?
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
Dungy
Herm Edwards is no Tony Dungy. He never ran a successful defense. He never built one Super Bowl team (Tampa) and coached another.
BORING
Now go get the stats on Dick Vermeil years in K.C. and I’ll bet they are pretty decent on offense, matter of fact his offense as we all know was down right awesome. How many playoff victories did we have under him?
vajazz24
And, how good was his Defensive unit?
Oh. Right.
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
And it was Herm
Who mocked the Vermeil era before he’d coached a single game for the Chiefs. That inevitably set him up to be measured against it from win-loss standpoint. He’s not dooing so hot.
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football"
- John Heisman
The Vermeil era mostly sucked.
Hate to be the one to say it, but there it is.
Herm and Vermeil have the same number of winning seasons and the same number of playoff appearances and the same number of playoff wins in their first three seasons. It was fun to watch a team rack up points, but with the exception of the 13-3 season (that ended because the defense couldn’t force a single punt in an entire game), it mostly sucked.
So, since those are the standards we’re judging Herm by, we also have to say that, where it counts, the Vermeil era sucked just as hard and Herm’s tenure has.
Herm Edwards is Clark Hunt's guy. Herm and Carl forced Clark to choose between their differing visions on how to rebuild the Chiefs, and we all see who got their walking papers. Herm's going to be walking the sidelines at Arrowhead in 2009, and possibly even beyond, no matter who the new General Manager is.
The Vermeil era mostly sucked.
Dont be afraid to say it, I agree.
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
When you only bring in a new def coor
with no players to fix a defense, then you suck!
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Go Ahead And Say It
Just remember that the Herm Edwards era has sucked much, much worse.
Herm and Vermeil have the same number of winning seasons and the same number of playoff appearances and the same number of playoff wins in their first three seasons.
Dick Vermeil win percentage in Kansas City: 55%
Herm Edwards win percentage in Kansas City: 31%
Now, who sucked more?
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
and Herms first year was basically
Dick’s team.
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
And that being the
only team Herm had success with.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Where is herm supebowl win? Vermiel got one.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Been to another.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Vermiel
I don’t recall Vermiel winning a sperbowl in K.C. I thought we were talking about the chiefs, but my bad. Hey didn’t Tom Coughlin win a sperbowl. Figured I’d put that in there since we naming sperbowl winning coaches. So with respect to our own HANK STRAM.
vajazz24
Has your beloved Herm even sniffed one here?
Hell Herm has only one winning season, with Vermiels team.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Herm Didn't Sniff One At His Last Job Either
Never got out of the divisional round, never won more than 10 games in the regular season.
Vermeil did a hell of a lot better than that in St. Louis and Philadelphia.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
And
He posted a winning record here.
What was Herm’s record again?
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Uhh 15-33?:)
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
I dont know how you can say that
I loved winning games and getting a bye in the playoffs under vermeil
Yep losing, but not losing 23-8.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
We had identity
With dick we atleast had a calling card we were going to run down your throat and thats its case closed .With herm we lost all that . WE ran the hell out of larry with a weak line now we are in a high school offense. No identity
but at least we had Dick!
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
What was that streak for
consecutive games won at home in December under Vermiel? Bet that is more than Herm has won overall in KC.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
yeah, that 10-6 season was for the birds too
no WAY that stacks up to the subtle excellence that is 2-14
The only measure of true success in the NFL is the Vince Lombardi trophy. Anything less is a rationalization.
To not make the playoffs at 10-6
Then the same team go 9-7, and the football gods let them in. That 10-6 season, we were peaking at the right time, could have been good, but the conferance was better.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Where is our homefield advantage now?
Teams used to fear playing here, now they see Arrowhead on the schedule, and think win.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
exactly
Even the fans think that thats not good to see the stands empty and have the commentators on air bash us its horrible .
How good has Herms whole team been, 15-33 over thrre years!
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
tampon 2...that's great
Unlike GMDM I refuse to trade my EL CID avatar until Jacobs proves his worth.
Holy Shit!!!...Peterson resigned...Am I dead?...Is This Heaven?
by RoyalsFanStuckInCardsLand on Jan 15, 2009 3:45 PM CST up reply actions
Damn it was on fire, then......
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
So I have this business
and I am in business for making money and having fun. The man who runs the public side of my business (what is seen by everyone) has lost the last three years in a row, each year getting worse. He is running things his way. I am losing money, because th people who want my product are staying home and not buying into it. If it were not for some commercial investor’s (TV) I would be on my ass as a business man.
How much longer should I go on this way before I make a change in my manager? I mean, he’s a nice guy and everyone like to work for him! He brought in some good people to work for him (me). So what do I do? He has one year left o his contract, but I cannot see losing this way again. Every other owner in ly line of work has changed their managers when things got bad and now they are reaping the rewards. Oh yeah, did I say how nice a guy he was?
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
my spelling shows the effects of drinking!
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
I the Chiefs keep Herm
It would be a lost year. I will say this-he must be a great guy. I’ve never seen this kind of loyalty for someone with his record. A HUGE part of last year was directly related to coaching, and Herm was full of excuses. If they keep him & we still suck, who is he going to blame now that Carl has gone? There will be some improvement built in just based on the fact that Pioli will spend the extra cap money that Herm did not want to spend last year, saying that bringing a few veterans would retard the growth of our young players. He talked Carl into standing pat, then blamed the lack of depth & first string talent on him. If he fails this year, will he still blame it all on 2006?
Right on
Both in the post and in your comments UCCrawford. Man, we need a new coach!
by ryan_andersen98 on Jan 15, 2009 4:38 PM CST reply actions
Yup
I think Chiefs fans overall have been very patient with Herm. He’s had three years here and the team’s performed worse every season. He had his chance and the fans are perfectly justified in calling for his head.
Any coach who thinks that he should be able to take a year off from accountability because of a rebuild has no business running an NFL team.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
If Herm Edwards took responsiblity like this after a loss, 90% of the posters on here probably would not want him to leave
"Hell I’ve been through some tough times. Sh-t, look at this… I’ve got gray [hair]. I’ve got it. This is the National F—king Football League, you’re not going to be on point every week. Am I pissed off about (last) Monday night? You’re damn right. But it’s on me and G-damn it, enough’s enough.
Come on, guys. Put it on me, let’s not make up some bullsh-t. I’ve been here five years, let’s just get it out on the f—king table and get it done with. Okay, I’m man enough to do that, alright.
Our whole team’s disappointed, alright, but we have excellent players, guys working their ass off and it didn’t go well. I’ll be the same guy in front of you next week when we kick ass."
- Rob Ryan after a Raider loss
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Oh and the link
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2008/09/12/rob-ryan-wants-you-to-know-that-this-is-the-national-f-reaking/
We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
He's Not A Raider Anymore
Ryan’s going to the Browns.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Crennel here?
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
Doubtful
At least as head coach. But I’d be okay with him as defensive coordinator. He wasn’t horrible.
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
That is what I meant.
Parcells has an out claus in Miami, talk about the re-builder of teams! We happen to have his son in law, I would be all for that.
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
If Only
We could essentially trade Peterson for Parcells. :)
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
Yeah, but we kind of lost
out on the rights to Peterson!:)
Welcome to KC Scott Pioli, home of the most rabid football fans in the NFL!
That's The Beauty Of The Deal
Addition by subtraction. We subtracted Peterson, they add Peterson, we add Parcells. :)
Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.
They're loss
We would’ve thrown in the 3rd pick in the draft had they made the deal a month ago to take the king ;)
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
Thigpen WILL NOT be the Chiefs starting QB next year IMO. He can compete for the job and should be 2nd or 3rd string.
These stats mean nothing...
The team is and will be very different from last years from a personnel standpoint alone…not to mention mindset, strategy and so on…
Something I like to do
Is take a coaches tenure somewhere, then take half of that time before and after and compare the records.
For instance, Herm coached the Jets for 5 years. His record was 39-41. In the 2 and a half years before he came, combined with the 2 and a half years after, the Jets record was 43-37. This leaves him at a deficit. He is 15-33 with the Chiefs. They were 14-10 in the year and a half before he came, and I am guessing they will win more than one of their next 24. He is guaranteed another deficit. Good coaches ALWAYS come out on top of this! (Run Marty’s #’s sometime. Although there are 8 games until the Chargers complete his book, it already speaks for itself)
This cannot always be finished for recent coaches or those that had long careers with one team (Like Shula or Landry-but their records speak for themselves)
The Chiefs should clean house as though they were a furniture store going out of business! ("we quit, we quit we quit! Everything must go to the bare walls!)
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