Time To Set Some Deadlines
by Ridiculous Matt on Aug 24, 2008 12:38 AM CDT
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PrintWe should have played worse earlier in the preseason. We should look worse when things are more vanilla. We should look worse when we've had less time together. Tonight we played what I am tempted to call the absolute, positively worst football game I have ever seen. I am prepared for losses. Even to the Dolphins. But not ... whatever that was. Because it wasn't football. I wouldn't use footage of that as a torture technique. I wouldn't make Raiders fans watch that. I wouldn't watch that again if it meant Chiefs season tickets for the next forty years on the 50 yard line.
But I digress. We knew it would be bad. And it is still the preseason. We have to hold on to that hope. We have to cling to it. We have to hold it like it is our last possession, because if we don't, well, we wont' have the heart to watch the kickoff of the Patriots game. It's entirely possible we'll play better in the regular season. Let's go over our goals.
1. To improve. In every aspect. From player development to play execution, to mental toughness. We want progress, nothing more.
2. To be competitive. We do have a number of first round picks starting. We have talent, and a few stars. We should at least be able to be competitive. If the Chicago Bears can be considered even a .500 club with Rex Grossman and Kyle Orton (who I would give an arm or a leg for at this point, preferably one of Huard's), then we should at least be able to be competitive.
3. To answer the questions at linebacker, defensive tackle, and quarterback, about whether we have sufficient talent, and if so, who that talent resides in.
We cannot start freaking out over losses when the regular season starts, because it will do us no good. While nothing we do will influence front office decisions, it will affect the course of discussion here at the Pride. If you start jumping on Herm Edwards in week one, you'll be dismissed as a Herm-hater, and that's the end of you. If you say Croyle should be released, you're going to be considered an anti-Croyle elment, or worse, a (shudder) Huardite. We have to give ample time to judge the players, coaches, and front office, before we begin the discussion . To this end, I suggest the following time limits.
Calling for Brodie Croyle's benching: AfterWeek 7 vs. Tennessee Titans:
We can criticize his performance for the first four weeks. We can start demanding he improve in the fifth week. If he manages to get outplayed by Vince "The Rose Bowl Will Be My Only Legacy" Young, at home, it's time to start looking at options. It's after the trade deadline, I fear, which means if we don't have positive news, we should probably make a swing at Sims before, just to be certain. Even with a tough defense like that, he'll have faced the Falcons and Raiders, so we'll know if he has the ability to produce against bad competition. I'm not saying we ditch him after this game, but this is where I think it's open game.
Discussing the Effectiveness of Chan Gailey: Next year.
One season, trying to teach a bunch of rookies, young players, and veterans who are used to one thing a whole new bag? Not enough time. I'm willing to give Chan some time.
Discussing if Gunther's lost his touch: After Week 12- Buffalo Bills
We'll have a better idea of Dorsey and Flower's potential by now. We can't ditch them by any means, they get a pass for at least two seasons. But if we've been unable to be competitive defensively against teams and end up having issues with the Bills and Trent Edwards? Time to start looking at whether Gunther's still getting to the players the same way.
Double-guessing LJ: Never
We just gave him a bajillion dollars. We've married the guy, and a divorce is too costly. This is a done deal. Like him or not, LJ is our horse, and we can't trade for another one.
The inevitable Herm Edwards Discussion: After Week 14-Denver Broncos:
The eternal question. At this point we'll have gotten through our toughest teams. We'll have played Denver and Oakland twice. We'll have gotten through the hardest part of our schedule. It's here that we can look at Herm and ask "How much have we improved? Are the rookies playing up to expectations? Has the offense improved? Do we look better than we did after that preseason game which must not be mentioned? Does it look like the plan is working?" We can't necessarily answer these questions, but we can look and start to analyze the questions. We can at least start to discuss them. And if the answer to those questions is yes, then we can quit with asking about Herm for another year. But until this point, we can't even get a good perspective on it. You can't see the forest for the gigantic pile of crap.
I submit these deadlines to the Arrowhead Faithful for their ratification, this 24th day of August.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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it ain't pretty.... just be prepared for that
I managed to sit through the whole thing this morning. There are some high points amongst a myriad of lows.
The young CB’s played well. Flowers was exceptional and Carr was better than I expected. I think we struck gold with Flowers, he should be great for a long time.
The RB core was solid. I thought Savage ran well, and was good catching out of the backfield. Battle finally showed he could be a bruiser and ran well – but he is still learning. Kolby Smith looks more explosive every time I watch him… he is quick like a rabbit. LJ was LJ.
Derrick Johnson – maybe I just loved that crushing hit he put on Ricky… but I thought he did great. He also knocked down a pass where it looked like he leapt 3 feed off the ground to get a hand on it.
by Ochophosphate on Aug 24, 2008 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Video
Can anyone please tell or email me where to download these game so
i might be able to draw my own conclusions from these games? pagne99@yahoo.com
by ChiefinSaintsland on Aug 24, 2008 2:00 AM CDT reply actions
I agree for the most part.
Give Brodie at most of the season before we see if Huard can outperform him – and then use our top 10 (being kind) pick on a quarterback. Give Herm the whole year and if we don’t improve… in December I’ll be shouting to throw a bunch of money at a rested and rejuvenated Cowher – at that point the coordinators would be his call.
I think the spread against the Patriots just went over 20… I might take that spread.
Time limits
I’m still a little annoyed by last nights loss, so forgive me if I come off a little short on my comments for a few days.
Setting up timelines for some of this stuff after a single bad preseason game is setting a schedule for expected failure that it might be said some are secretly hoping for.
As you said Matt, we already know we’re not going to be a very good team this year. That’s to be expected because of the completely new offensive scheme and all the young players. However, in the first two preseason games (and I don’t care what anyone says, the starters against Arizona looked good) we saw a lot of promise. But after one miserable game in which not only one or two players, but the entire team from top to bottom looked miserable, we have haters (not directing this at you Matt) crawling out of the woodwork and people ready to jump on the “Axe the entire organization” bandwagon. I just find that silly.
We haven’t even seen a Chan Gailey gameplan yet and we’re already setting deadlines for him?
What good does it do to set a timeline for calling for Croyles benching? This is an exercise in futility. We have no other QB on the roster that has the potential to be our franchise guy. Thigpen will probably never be anything but a backup and we already know what Huard is. So calling for Croyles benching means we give up on the loan guy on the roster who has that potential and just write off the rest of the season development wise.
We cannot find a replacment for Croyle until the season is over anyway, so what possible good does benching him do? He’ll get the entire season if for no other reason than that there is no one else. I care less what he looks like at week 7 than what he looks like in the last half of the season. That is what is going to determine if he should return next year or if we need to go fishing for a new QB candidate.
Fair Enough
I never actually have called for Herm’s job. I think the gist of my comment was that if we don’t make progress this year I’d like to consider going after Cowher or whatever coaching upgrade we could find. As far as Croyle goes, he hasn’t won a regular season game. Yes we know what Huard is, and what he brings is the ability to win a game or two – not many – but some. I guess what I’m saying is that if we’re 0-6, and Croyle has shown nothing, I would call for his benching and I was agreeing with the time table of a free pass to week 7.
Believe me, I want Brodie to succeed. If he works out, then that 1st round pick next year could be a top linebacker, o-lineman, or nice shiny wide receiver.
1st Rounder Could Still Be One Of Those Things
Graham Harrell and Chase Daniel both look promising as young QBs in next year’s draft, and neither is likely going to be gone in the first round. And either Derek Anderson or Brady Quinn are going to be hitting the market next year most likely, so we’ll have options even if Croyle doesn’t work out without having to burn a first-rounder.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
If Quinn is not available, we dont want Anderson
If Quinn becomes available it probably means Anderson had a crappy year. If you look at Anderson last year, he had a couple of good games when he was first put in and was not very good the rest of the season. I’ve never been sold on Andersons ability and those couple of good games haven’t changed that. He has performed pretty bad in the preseason.
I guess the point is, IF Croyle bombs, and I still don’t think thats going to happen, but if he does, I would be open to bringing Quinn in, but not Anderson. I just dont believe in him.
I Think You're A Bit Off There
Do you mean “If Quinn isn’t available it probably means Anderson had a crappy year?”
And I can certainly agree that there are concerns about Anderson. He’s a decent deep passer, but his accuracy can be pretty inconsistent and he definitely faded down the stretch last year. All things considered, I’d rather have Quinn too. But if Croyle does terribly and if Anderson performs as well or better than last year this season, I wouldn’t be opposed to bringing him in if we can get him cheap.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Yeah you're right
I mistyped on that.
I don’t know about the cheap thing. I mean there are positions that in free agency you’re looking for good deals on players that just havent had a chance and hoping you can get a steal on them, but some positions, like FG Kicker or QB, I’d rather just find the right guy and pay him well to keep him around.
I’m so sick of this FG Kicker B.S. ever since they let Lowry go that I can’t stand it and pretty much the same thing with QBs.
IF Croyle needs to be replaced, we should be looking in the draft, in free agency for younger QBs that were good college prospects but maybe got saddled on the wrong team for them offensively, etc.
If say a Brady Quinn were out there, I wouldn’t be adverse to trading a 1st rounder (depending on where that pick is) on him if the scouts and coaches REALLY think he has what it takes to thrive in our system (hey if we draft one, good chance we’re spending a 1st round pick on him anyway).
Hopefully we don’t have to worry about this because Croyle will perform well and stay healthy, but you never know.
Ever since they let Lowery go
Stoyanovich was good. He was after Lowery.
by Joel Thorman on Aug 25, 2008 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Beat Me To It :)
Stoyanovich was solid and Morten Anderson wasn’t bad either…Tynes wasn’t great but I could live with him.
I’m not all that worried about kickers, they come and go and there’s always a decent one (if not a great one) lying around somewhere. The QB situation is what bothers me more. I certainly think we ought to look at drafting a QB next year if Croyle is terrible, but I also think that if a decent vet comes up we should consider it. And cheap was probably the wrong word…relatively inexpensive would be better. For the record, I’m not so sure that Brady Quinn’s worth a first-rounder (since, after all, he still hasn’t beaten out Derek Anderson, who’s solid but not great) but I think he’d be good value for a 2nd rounder. And if they have both on the team next year, the pressure’s going to be on the Browns to get rid of one of them (because with Quinn’s incentive-based contract it’s not a situation that’s going to lend itself to team harmony).
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Veteran QB
But we shouldn’t consider a vet (unless he’s a young super-promising vet, who are generally never available) as anything more than a stopgap. Our disagreements about Croyle’s abilities aside, I agree that teams need to develop their own QB.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Quinn
I haven’t seen anything in him this preseason that I haven’t seen in Crizzle. In fact, he has several of the same shortcomings – but his O-line is superior so he “looks” better from time to time. Yeah Crizzle has been in the league a year longer, but Quinn also ran a very pro-esque offense at ND.
He had what looked like a good game the other day, but one of his deep TD passes should have been an INT but the CB bobbled it and the WR took it away and ran in for the score… the ball was underthrown and the WR just got lucky.
I have a feeling that if either were on the market, there are other teams that would try a lot harder and pay a lot more to get them than the Chiefs. Remember what happened with Jeff Faine and some of the other FA’s we wanted this offseason… gone in 60 seconds.
by Ochophosphate on Aug 25, 2008 11:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Faine Was A Free Agent, Not Trade Bait
In free agency, it’s all about getting the offer in quick to grab the better candidates, in trades teams have time to work out details. But if the Chiefs were offered Quinn or Anderson and it required a 1st rounder to get them, I’d say pass on both…I don’t think either is worth more than a 2nd rounder at this point, Quinn especially, for the reasons you mentioned.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
aye
I was just pointing out that other teams tend to be more aggressive when going after players they want than us… I was using FA as an example. You’re right though that the situation is more drawn out when trades are on the table.
by Ochophosphate on Aug 25, 2008 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
So even if we continue to see this crap all season
There should not be a call for the axe to fly? I am willing to give this rebuilding thing its chance to flourish, but if there is no sign of improvement by the end of the season shouldn’t it be time for change? All I want to see is improvement.
There is no reason to think we are going to see this all season
That’s what Im saying. We’ve had 3 games. Two of them the starters did decently and this one looked like 2007 all over again.
That’s probably to be expected when you’re transitioning from the old to something new. Just because we’ve made changes does not mean we have completely ridden ourselves of all the problems we had last year. Its a transition phase. I suspect that some weeks we are going to look fantastic and others were going to take a huge step back like we did last night. But that doesn’t mean you throw your hands up in the air and make plans for giving up.
Sometimes players and teams just have bad nights. Hell, Peyton Manning had a game last year where he threw SIX interceptions. Did that mean he reverted back to what he was as a rookie? Of course not. He had a bad game. Sometimes entire teams have bad games, thats why you see the Chiefs who were one of the worst teams last year blow out the Chargers who were one of the better teams. Stuff happens.
Im just saying lets not all jump ship over one bad performance when I think we all know we can probably expect several of them this season.
At some point
You have to stop saying “Let’s see where this takes us! Let’s be patient!”and look at what’s happening, DJ. I’m not saying now is the time. As a matter of fact, it’s the opposite. What I’m trying to say is that we can’t criticize anyone until these points. But you seem to be of the opinion that no one on this staff or roster should be criticized. Ever. I’m saying, “Yes, we’re rebuilding, and we’re in development mode. But if we don’t develop, we have a problem.” I’m all for buying into Herm’s vision and giving him time to show that the plan has legs. But I’m not into blindly going along with a rebuilding plan that, quite frankly, has shown some rather distressing gashes in it. How long are you willing to wait to look at whether or not this plan is effective? Three years? Five? Ten? I’m patient in football terms, I’m willing to give it a year. That’s why the coaching staff has till the end of the season. I’m not talking about wins. I don’t give a damn if we’re 1-15. I’d prefer it. That means we get the number 1 pick next year and we can all argue about it. I don’t care about the losses. I’m fine with us losing 15 games if at certain points in there, we look like we’re competitive, and we don’t field an effort like that again. 189 yards, DJ. That’s abysmal.
You can talk all you want about how people are just “expecting and hoping we fail” but the reality is that there is a reason everyone is so concerned about this club. A massive rebuilding effort takes time. But it also takes the right person. And if the people in charge are not them, we need to find out in a hurry. We can’t waste three seasons waiting to see if Herm’s vision works or if he can actually coach within a game. Four seasons of terrible play and the fanbase is going to lose hope, it’s going to lose conviction. I don’t want to see a sea of red empty seats so that we can stick with this guy out of principle.
I said Gailey gets a pass this year, and I’m sticking with it. Especially given who he’s coaching for. I’m sorry, but I have serious concernes about the impact of Herm Edwards on the play calling. If I get assurances he’s not involved, I’ll feel a lot better. But until then, I’m going to be weary of the 3rd and 22 shotgun draw.
Croyle gets a fair number of games. But if he doesn’t show development, we’ve got to get another quarterback on roster. He’s got to be young. My concern is that the offensive line will mask Croyle’s shortcomings with their own epic failures so that when we do get the line straightened out, we’ll wake up and go, “Oh. Brodie’s just not very good.” I’m not saying that’s the case. I’m saying we need to keep an eye out for it.
I’m all for development, but I need to see it. I’m not willing to just sit here and watch us suck in all sorts of ways just so that we can say we gave them time. This is a results-oriented world. Show-Me.
by Ridiculous Matt on Aug 24, 2008 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
You're not saying that time is now
But you’re already making plans for it. That’s what I have a problem with.
EVERYBODY knows that Chiefs are going to be an inconsistent team this year. 3/4 of the team is going to be made up of players with less than 3 years of NFL experience. PLUS we have a brand new offensive scheme in place that those young players are still learning.
I can almost guarantee this isn’t going to be the last pathetic game we are going to watch this season. But I can also guarantee that not every game is going to be this way. The two previous preseason games were not this bad. So which was the anomoly? The games where the starters were fairly solid, but had the expected problems, or the complete meltdown we witnessed last night?
Even last year you were asking me whether I was going to wait 5 years before I started calling for peoples jobs. Well it hasn’t even been ONE year. We’re still in the preseason where they aren’t even gameplanning. So yeah, I think its entirely too early to start scheming about how you’re going to overthrow the leadership of the team.
I understand that you don’t accept Herm and the rest of the leadership as being qualified to do the job. But guess what? You don’t know they aren’t anymore than I know for certain they are. Its simply your opinion and until Clark Hunts opinion changes, we’re stuck with them. What happens when they bring Cowher or whoever the coach and GM of your choice is to rebuild the team AGAIN and nothing is done? You going to give them one year to do it and then fire them and call for someone else?
You claim to be for the rebuild, but you’re already plotting against it. You say all you want to see is development and that it doesn’t matter if we’re 1-15. Well what does that mean? If we have 2/3 of the games where development is shown and then 1/3 of the games where we look bad are you going to view that as a progressive season? Because thats exactly what we’ve seen so far this preaseason. We’ve seen two games where aspects of the team looked really good and improved from last year, then a horrendous game last night and you’re already setting your schedule.
You can claim to be willing to give it a chance, but if you’re already making plans because of your preconceived notions, I find it hard to believe you’ll ever be satisfied with losing but making “progress”.
You see it
as a "plot"like Parade and I are going to charge the gates.
DJ, you have got to accept that not everyone thinks all is in great shape after one of the most pathetic offensive seasons, if not THE most pathetic offensive seasons in our history, followed by minimal offseason roster changes, a TERRIFIC draft, and an underwhelming preseason that last night was followed by the single worst game I have ever seen any Chiefs team play, ever.
You’re doing the same thing you’ve done since last year, which is say that anyone that dares question the team obviously has it in for Herm and is jsut waiting for a chance to criticize. I was looking forward to last night’s game, even though I thought we’d lose. I was looking forward to seeing what progress was made.
We went backwards.
If we progress, I’ll be happy. If we have 13 games where we look prepared to play, play with pride, play like we know how much time is on the clock, and like we’re willing to do what it takes to win, even if that means throwing downfield, I’ll be happy. You want me to have a little faith in them, I’m doing it. they can turn this thing around. I’m asking you to have faith that I’ll be supportive when that happens and to be tolerant of the fact that after last night’s vomitous wretch of a performance, some of us are aware that it’s possible, just possible, things won’t work out. That was all I was trying to say. I’m not making plans. I’m hopeful that by December, I’ll be able to say "that they’ve done everything they said they’d do.
Don’t say “one year to do it.” This is his third year, DJ. And I know, I know, “his first two years he was dealing with the leftovers of the Vermeil regime” (who certainly played a lot better than the guys Herm’s brought in), and this is his first real year of rebuilding. But between the special teams, Croyle, the offensive line, the defensive line, and the overall strategy questions, it’s hard to say we’re not going further in reverse.
This is a serious question. Do you see this year as more of a destruction of what we’ve had so we can start over? Are we not ready to go forward? Do we need another year of shipping people out and starting from scratch?
I guess I don’t know when to start looking at this team in a critical light. And I feel like if we follow your lead, we’ll be in this same spot in a year and a half, saying “Woo-hoo! Just you wait! Once we get a few more players in the system, we’ll be ready!”
I’m seriously asking at what point you would be concerned about the direction of this club? Some of us, you’re right, have been worried since day 1. I’ve been worried but if Tom Coughlin can win a Super Bowl, Herm Edwards can (though I like Coughlin more than a lot of people do). I think it’s possible, and I want to wait till the above deadlines before asking if we’re going in the right direction.
You really need to stop with the " you people just want to hate Herm, that’s what you’ve always done." You’re not a 100% Herm-supporter, that’s clear from the special team criticism. I’m a much more reasonable guy than I was last year (a year of professional blogging does that to you). You’re not going to support him no matter what, I’m just wondering where the line for you is.
The line for a lot of us is if we get to the end of this season and in the majority of the games we look unprepared and overwhelmed.
by Ridiculous Matt on Aug 24, 2008 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
Matt
We are not going to be 1 step better every single game. If we did we would be the New England Patriots by week 17.
There are going to be steps forward and there are going to be steps back. If you want to freak out after every single step back, go right on ahead. But just as you think you have the right to criticize the team, I feel I have the right to defend it. Right now this is merely a difference of opinion because no one will know who is right until everything plays out.
“This is a serious question. Do you see this year as more of a destruction of what we’ve had so we can start over? Are we not ready to go forward? Do we need another year of shipping people out and starting from scratch?”
Of course not. The destruction took place over the offseason. That’s why we are now “rebuilding”. But just because we’ve started building again doesn’t automatically make us better or that they have solved all the problems. Even with 12 draft picks, we still have holes that couldn’t be filled. And lets face it. If we were a really good team, we wouldn’t have nearly every player drafted starting or heavily contributing. The reason we are doing that is because this team was sucked dry of talent. Its going to take YEARS of bringing in new players that are upgrades over whoever is starting at the time before we are really a great team. Thats not to say its going to be years before we are a winning team again. But it takes time to build up team depth.
Heres the thing. I don’t agree with everything Herm or the organization does. But I know that I have no power to change it. So if you dont have power to change it, you can either wallow in futility, or just run with it.
The reason I always come off as being a Herm sympathizer (and make no mistake, I buy into his philosophy, its the same as I was raised to believe football was supposed to be played) is because I have a knee jerk reaction to whining by people who have preconceived notions. You cannot tell me that most of the people who are vehimently anti-Herm became that way because of his coaching and not because they were anti-Herm from the moment he stepped off the plane from New York.
How can anyone know whether Herm can take a team to the Super Bowl until he does it? Coughlin took 12 years and two teams to go to a Super Bowl. Bill Cowher took over the most stable team in the NFL and it took him 14 years. It took Bill Bellichik, one of the most brilliant coaches in NFL history, 7 years to get to his first Super Bowl.
So when someone says “I don’t think Herm can take a team to a Super Bowl”, thats fine. But thats just your opinion, and people had the same opinion of all of the above coaches at some point in their careers as well. Flip flopping between coaches expecting instant gratification will not get your team where you want it to go. Sometimes you just have to pick the guy you think can do it and stick with him.
About giving a coach a year
We did it in Miami after a 1-15 season. Belief me ChiefDJ. People try to be pathien, but that is not a easy task and is more dificult went you have been suscesfull. Remember that you are not the perenial Lossing franchises like Lion or Saint.
In Miami, we already AXE QB John Beck. He didn’t even have a fair shoot, but that is not our problem, that is his. He needed to make the most out of the time he was given(almost none). I was a Beck supporter, but people is not really pathien. I was anti penniless(Chat Penintong), but developtment and evolution occur rather quickly in Miami, theres is not much time to show a plan, the plan better make you BETTER REALLY FAST OR YOU ARE OUT OF TOWN!! Atleast that is the way in Miami. Right now, we only have 71 player in the roster, the cut this week is for 75, so before last night we already put on the street a lot of players and we are not in need of making a cut this week, but again, here, if you don’t show something, we show you the door.
ChiefDJ good luck in the Damage Control crusade of yours. I one’s try it out, is very dificult to make people calmdown went frustration take over. If , by any luck, you make a great game vs the patsies or maybe win, then it will be easier for you to look for pathien among fans.
I will see the Dolphins win a SUPER BOWL before i die(21 years and counting)
Caveat To The Croyle Rule
If Croyle is absolutely abhorrent during the first four games, I think it is entirely appropriate to bring up the idea that maybe the Chiefs should be open to the idea of finding a young QB via trade (for a reasonable price, of course, if one is available).
But I think playing week 7 before calling for his benching is fair.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Aug 24, 2008 10:01 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
As For LJ
If he plays like he did last year, I’ll still criticize him, but I also accept that he’s not going to be going anywhere anytime soon with the contract he has (unless the CBA doesn’t get approved and we have an uncapped year in 2010…in which case there’s no cap penalty to release him if he sucks). But, that said, he’s been performing pretty well in the preseason I think and as long as he stays healthy I think he’ll probably be a good running back for us so right now I don’t forsee a ton of criticism in the future aimed his way. :)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
I'm not going to defend Croyle when he plays like he did last night
But lets face it, the entire team was terrible. Yes Croyle played bad, but so did the offensive line, WRs, RBs, Defense and Special Teams. There was not a single aspect of the team last night that was not horrible.
But again, everyone has different ideas of what is progress and what is not. I can guarantee that you, who has always been skeptical of Croyle, are going to give up on him a lot sooner than I, who think he has what it takes, will.
That’s where the conflict lies. You want cart blanche to criticize him when you feel he has done poorly, and I want to defend him when I think people forget about the other games where he did well. Do not we both have the right to do so?
We Do
And I’ve never tried to claim you don’t. Like I’ve said elsewhere, I’m fine with giving Croyle the season as long as he shows improvement. If he keeps playing like he did last night, I’ll probably revise that down a lot. Personally I don’t think he should lose his starting job until week 6 or 7 at the earliest, regardless of how badly he performs…if only because that will give a pretty good sample size to evaluate. And I suspect that if Croyle is horrific for most of that six or seven games you probably won’t be as vehemently opposed as you are now (which would be understandable).
I do agree that regular season results should dictate whether Croyle starts or not, not the preseason. I’m just skeptical that Croyle will be that good in the regular season. But I’m okay with giving him the shot and unless he’s simply the worst QB ever to suit up I probably won’t be calling for his head until week 6 or 7. :)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
The only problem I have with talking about benching him
Is that he’s never really played absolutely horrid. He has pretty much overall been mediocre. Oh, he’s had his moments to be sure. But I can’t think of too many times when I though that he needed to have bullet taken to him to put him out of his misery. I don’t think he’s ever been Rex Grossman bad.
The big issue I have with this is that theres no guy behind him worth seeing what he’s got if its determined mid-season that he is a failure. I don’t see Thigpen as ever being a starting NFL QB and we already know Huard isn’t. So pulling Croyle will accomplish nothing but throwing the entire team into turmoil.
I would feel differently if there was another guy with NFL starter potential behind him that could step in and light the world on fire. I like Croyle, I believe in him, but more than anything I want the Chiefs to find their franchise guy that will be the leader of the team for the next decade. If Croyle isn’t it, I want to get on to finding the next guy.
But since there ISN’T another guy that has that potential on the squad, I just feel like I would prefer to give Croyle the whole season to see if he can work himself out of it. To me, putting Huard or Thigpen in would accomplish nothing but creating a new QB controversy for next year. I’d much rather get to next offseason and say “Ok, Croyle couldnt get it done so we’re cutting ties with him and this next guy we’re bringing in is the man” instead of “Well, we pulled Croyle, but Thigpen didn’t do too well either so we don’t know if the problem was Croyle or the O-line or whatever so we’re going to bring in this other guy and have a 3 way QB competition”.
I HATE QB competitions. I think they are bad for the QBs and bad for the team not knowing who their leader is. I just would prefer to have it settled beyond a doubt and move on than leave a bunch of stuff hanging in the air.
Nope
Brodie has not been Rex Grossman bad…he had a couple of moments in that last game, but overall most of the problems were just as much or more other peoples’ fault as his.
I’m probably a little higher on Thigpen than you, but only a little…I liked his ability to move the offense downfield, but I think he gambles too much and is too inconsistent. So if Croyle were benched I wouldn’t be completely opposed to slotting in Thigpen instead of Huard for a few games to see what he can do. For now, though, I think it’s still the smart move to keep playing Croyle until around the halfway point of the season. I figure that will tell us whether it’s better to give Croyle the rest of the season or start looking at other options.
And I’m not worried so much about QB competitions. We got Steve DeBerg out of a QB competition and that worked out pretty well for us. Usually when teams are hurt by QB controversies, it’s because neither QB was that good (case in point, Denver with Shawn Moore and Tommy Maddox). But I also believe that competition is a good thing, that it improves performance overall and that nobody should be entirely secure in their job in the NFL. If an NFL player gets rattled and can’t perform because he’s worried about losing his job, how do you think that player’s going to perform when he gets to the playoffs and the Super Bowl where the pressure and scrutiny are even more intense?
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
I wouldn't be bragging about getting Steve DeBerg
He is the prototype for the “game manager”. He was also a journeyman vet so the QB competition isn’t going to affect him as much as it would a younger guy.
Pressure
If you’re talking about a rookie having to compete for a starting job, I agree that it can negatively affect their development by putting too much pressure on them too early. College to the NFL is a huge culture shock. When you’re talking about a third year guy who’s had quite a bit of playing time already having trouble facing the pressure of competing for his job, I’d argue that player is demonstrating that he’s not cut out for the NFL.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
I understand what you're saying about pressure
But I think there is so much that goes into playing QB other than just that single guys personal athletic ability.
Joe Montana was not the most physically gifted QB, but his leadership inspired the players around him to play better. Even to a much smaller degree, Trent Green. Look at the huge drop off in effort the players put out when Green went out and another guy came in.
A team plays harder for a guy that inspires them with his leadership. During a QB competition, thats almost impossible to see that come through and its almost as important as how accurate or how good an arm the guy has.
Drew Bledsoe was a good QB. But he had absolutely no charisma whatsoever. A guy comes along like Brady who, at least at the time, was not physyically or game-wise much better, but had charisma and leadership oozing from his pores and inspired the team to play better.
Joe Montana
Actually took Steve DeBerg’s job when DeBerg was a 3rd year player and Montana was in his 2nd year.
As for Drew Bledsoe, he lost his job to Brady because he got hurt, and because Brady was simply a better QB (when Bledsoe had to move and throw he had an unfortunate habit of making bad throws and turnovers, Brady didn’t). Didn’t have that much to do with personality, Brady was just better at his job. Patriots never would have won the Super Bowl with Bledsoe leading them (which I feel kind of bad saying because Bledsoe was a good QB and apparently a decent guy who I liked as a player, but still he wasn’t good enough to win it all for New England that year).
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Inspiration
I think inspiration from a QB comes from completing passes, and not turning the ball over and making smart adjustments. I don’t think that success is as much about being fiery as it is just about being able to execute and lead by example in pressure situations (which Bledsoe had some trouble doing because of that problematic mobility/throwing thing).
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
After All
Kansas City wasn’t the first job DeBerg had to compete for. He lost his job a few times as a young player (to players younger than him) and yet he still had a decent career.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Now you're talkin' UC
Let’s give the whole team a few games to get it together, regular season, game-planned games. Then we can start worrying. We all knew from the get go that this year would include some growing pains, and sometimes, just like a teenager, a young team takes two-steps forward and one back. Although it seems this week we took one forward and two back :)
I’m all about patience this season and seeing how we do. I’m positive that if Croyle is abhorrent a significant portion of the season, and the staff see’s that he’s part of the problem, not the solution, then changes will be made.
That's Fair Enough
Like I said to DJ…I think giving Croyle at least 6 weeks of starts is pretty fair. And if he keeps improving, I’m fine with giving him the season. All about the progression.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Two-a-days
Honestly though, I feel pretty strongly that Herm shouldn’t have moved to one practice a day near the end of camp. It’s pretty obvious that both the coaches and players needed more reps then they’ve had recently in practice. You can’t get those back now, the oppurtunity is lost. I understand you want to keep those legs fresh, but isn’t that one of the reasons to go young – so that you can practice more effectivly as a team? (among other reasons =)
Can't do that
Not with the injuries already. If anything we need fewer practices. Maybe it should have gone the other way, fewer practices early, more later, but right now, it would just be running them down before the season opener.
by Ridiculous Matt on Aug 25, 2008 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Agreed for the situation as it is now, but at the time
when he stopped them we didn’t have nearly the amount of injuries we do now… several (Cottam, Charles, etc..) came after he stopped them…. Not to say they wouldn’t have had them, but jeesh, the reps may have helped our performance…
Re: Gun's Deadline
Great article. Where I disagree is the idea of when we decide Gun is out of touch with the game. As far as I’m concerned, he proved a long time ago that he’s out of touch with the game. If anything, his deadline has passed and the clock starts ticking for him from game 1.
Because I’ve heard too many excuses for the guy. We’ve surrounded him with great players. We’ve surrounded him with good coaches. We’ve showered the guy with resources, and yet he continues to escape criticism. While
Minimums?
Hey Matt. Good post and fun counterpunching between you and DJ.
Maybe it was said somewhere in this mile-long (almost said mile high — oops) thread, but I took Matt’s timeframes more as minimums and a call for patience. Not so much a timer to set the bomb ticking to an inevitable explosion. I think that wondering how much time is enough before you discuss/try alternatives is a legitimate thing to ponder. Especially in the context of people already making evaluations at this early stage.
One more thing… DJ, do you have a screen printing business in your garage printing Patriots jerseys and then sell them on eBay or something? =)
Great enthusiasm, guys! And let’s hope all goes well and that the “deadlines” will simply become irrelevant.
I also buy stock in Halliburton and Oil right before Republicans get elected to the presidency
And sell every stock I own before a democrat gets elected. :)
Hey, hey ,hey
No political talk here this is a football site! (I already tried to crack one)
Oh, DJ
Don’t you realize that there is no difference any more between Republicans and Democrats? Why do you think Hillary went on record as saying that McCain would be a better president than Obama. Her politics are pretty much the same as McCain’s (and Obama’s as well, but she wants to run for president again in 2012 and she’s a rotten backstabbing shrew so she’s trying to screw over Obama) so a vote for a Democrat is pretty much the same as a vote for a Republican. No matter who wins they’re still going to raise our taxes to pay for their stupid programs :)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
OK now how could
An American even consider putting a Arab in the whitehouse? Obama,Osama? See that one letter change.
Please Tell Me You're Joking
You realize that he’s not Muslim, right? After all, the guy had a racist pastor, so if he’s a stooge of radical evangelical black supremacists (like Hillary and the GOP try to claim) he can hardly be a Muslim as well (like Hillary and the GOP also try to claim).
Best way to figure out what a politician stands for is to look at their voting record and ignore what they say (or what’s said about them) during the campaign season because the odds are that it’s nothing but lies.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
Dude he converted a year before he ran for public office!
He has family in Kenya that has burned christian churches! With people inside!
This thread
Has officially made me dumber than our special teams unit.
by Ridiculous Matt on Aug 25, 2008 8:50 PM CDT reply actions
Dear Political Rabbit Hole
… what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
by Ochophosphate on Aug 25, 2008 11:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Back to football.....
I agree for the most part on the “deadlines”. I was so upset about the whole (not to be mentioned game) that I had to wait until today to even read anything about it. The past is past, so with a deep breath, we move on. I am comfortable with 90% of the roster and foresee good things this year. Some of the obvious weaknesses must be addressed – right side of the O-Line and LBs, but I believe we have a solid core of players that want to and are capable of competing with anyone. Maybe not today, or tomorrow, but as the season progresses. One of my greatest fears is that the players are good enough, but the specialty coaches aren’t cutting it.
I’m sadly expecting to hear myself screaming in pain as my eyes bleed from watching High School style mistakes, but as we roll into games 7 & 8 I’ll be expecting them less and less. To stop, no, but fewer on a weekly basis. If I can just watch a transformation from jello like, to hardend, to rock solid through this season, I’ll be content. I for one will stand behind all of them until they have proven that they can’t do it. That means coaches and players both.
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