Arrowhead Pride: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:

Around SBN: MLB postseason scores, schedules and blog coverage Bar-right-arrows

Herm Myth Busting- Punting and Field Goals

Ajax_tiny by ChiefDJ on

From the FanPosts. -Chris

It's been a while since we've had a good old fashioned Herm Brawl here at AP and things have been a little quiet, so though I would stir the pot a little.

The first news conference Herm Edwards had as a Chief he went on and on about the virtues of Field Goals and Punting.  Chiefs fans everywhere groaned.  Ever since we always hear the half-jokes about the run, run pass, punt offense he brought with him and how he would rather punt or kick a field goal than score a touchdown. 

Is this fact or fiction?

Herm once said that his idea of the ideal football game was a 6-3.  Would Herm really rather kick a field goal than try to score a TD?  Does Herm kick an excessive number of field goals?

Below is a breakdown of where Herms teams rank in the number of Field Goal ATTEMPTS (how many are made don't really matter, we are talking about whether Herm is inclined to attempt an excessive number of field goals because he is so conservative), the number of FG attempts by the leading FGA team that year, and the number of Field Goal Attempts by Vermeils teams just because.  I did not include 2007stats because I think we can all agree they were an anomoly.

Year    Team    Rank   #FGA    # of FGA for #1     # of FGA for Vermeil Offense
2006   Chiefs     10th      31                      37                                  ------
2005   Jets         22nd     28                      45                                   33
2004   Jets            8th     29                       34                                   23
2003   Jets         11th      32                       42                                   20
2002   Jets         12th      31                       40                                   27
2001   Jets         13th      31                       44                                   35

Yes, Herm talks about kicking Field Goals A LOT.  But what are the facts on the field when it comes right down to it?  Only 2 out of 7 years coaching has Herm Edwards coached teams even averaged two FG ATTEMPTS per game, not FGs made, attempts.  5 out of 7 years the average was less than 2 attempts a game.  Two FG Attempts a game, that could be a FG right before halftime and one at the end of the game to win.

None of his teams have ever been in the top 5 in FG attempts, only twice has his team been in the top 10.  In 2004, the Jets were tied for 8th and went to the playoffs (note though that this was one of the years they had the FEWEST attempts, it just happened that so did everyone else that year, the leader in attempts only had 34 which is around 7 less than the average),  and in 2006, when the Chiefs also went to the playoffs.

The five years that Vermeil was coach of the Chiefs, we averaged 27.6 FG Attempts per year.  Herms teams averaged 30.2 FG Attempts per year, only 2.6 more Field Goal Attempts per year than Vermeils teams and 10.8 less FG Attempts per year fewer than the league leaders in attempts those years.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Herm says the punter is a weapon.  Is he more inclined to play conservatively and punt than other teams? 

Below is a breakdown of where the Chiefs ranked in the number of punts, the actual number of times they punted, the number of punts the leading punting team had that year and then for giggles, how many times the Chiefs under Dick Vermeil punted.

Year    Team    Rank  #punts    # of punts for #1     # of punts for Vermeil Offense
2006   Chiefs     24th       73                      99                                  ------
2005   Jets         19th      75                     107                                   65
2004   Jets         13th      80                     110                                   55
2003   Jets         22nd      71                      97                                   80
2002   Jets         25th      64                     114                                   64
2001   Jets         20th      76                       99                                   75

Note that Herms teams have only once in these 6 years been in the top half of the league in # of punts and 3 of the 6 years has been in the bottom 10.

Vermeils teams punted an average of 67.8 times in the 5 years he was the Chiefs coach, two of those years with the leagues top offense.  Herm Edwards teams the same years averaged 73.2 punts a year, only 5.4 more punts a year than Vermeils teams .

The teams with the most punts in the league those five years averaged a whopping
105.4 punts a year or 32.2 more punts a year than Herms teams.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The point of all of this is, as we all should know by now, there are two Herms. 

There is the dreamer Herm who loves defense, talks about his Punter as though he were the MVP of the team and recounts the virtues of 9-6 "real football" games.

Then there is the reality.  Practical Herm on the field that is conservative yes, but makes moves based on what the good of the team at the time is and is nowhere near the extremes.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

4 recs | Comment 61 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

confounding factors

I mean, when you think about it, if you think about it, he’s probably going to have more field goals because the offense moved a lot more, had a lot less three and outs. Vermeil’s also punted a lot more since they were always looking to score, like at the end of halfs and also didn’t run clock as much. Just sayin’, those are contributing factors.

Not that I’m criticizing him, because I’m done till next April.

-The Commenter Formerly Known As MAWK

by Ridiculous Matt on Jul 9, 2008 7:58 AM CDT   0 recs

He's back

Congrats on ridiculousupside.com

by primetime 07 on Jul 9, 2008 9:45 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good to "see" you

take care of yourself.

P.S. Can we come up with a symbol for you to use as your name instead of typing out “The Commenter Formerly Known As MAWK” every time? :)

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 9, 2008 11:47 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

practical herm versus real herm

Ahem…...........Herm’s teams may not be in position to attempt a lot of field goals. Case in point, last year’s disastrous farce of an offense run by the alleged offensive coordinator whose name I shall not speak. Rarely was the offense on the opposing team’s half of the field last year, let alone being in position to attempt a field goal. During the nine game losing streak, Herm (practical or real?) DID ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to correct the abysmal offensive situation. The reason he did absolutely nothing is because he didn’t have a clue as to what needed to be done. The success of this year’s team lies largely in the hands of Chan Gailey. As Chan’s fortunes go, so go the Chief’s. If Herm will leave Chan alone enough to run an effective offense, the Chiefs may dramatically improve by mid season. If Herm clings to his disastrous philosophies such as “keep it close, slug it out at the end”, and “run the ball at all costs”, it will be a very long season for Chief’s fans such as myself.

by G.L. on Jul 9, 2008 9:15 AM CDT   0 recs

Herm does need to let Chan Gailey run the offense

Gailey is a seasoned professional.

Herm’s greatest mistake as the Chiefs head coach is not recognizing the terrible state of the 2007 offensive line.

by Chris on Jul 9, 2008 9:52 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I disagree

There are only 4 things that can happen to end a drive in football. Score a TD, Attempt a FG, Punt or a turnover. Herms teams have always been pretty good at keeping turnovers reasonable and the reputation is he doesn’t score TDs. Yet he does not have excessively high FG Attempts nor does he have high punting numbers. You can’t spin it and say none of the above. SOMETHING that is “common knowlege” about Herms teams is false.

I also don’t know how much of last year you can blame on Herm. I mean yes, he’s the head coach and maybe he should have recognized how bad the offensive line was going to be and do something about it, though in the middle of the season, you don’t have many options for good O-linemen, especially when you’re trying to develop a young QB at the same time.

Herms philosophy is a sound one. It has been the philosophy of succesful coaches in the NFL for decades and continues to be. Look at the Steelers and Jaguars to just name two. Extremely ultra-conservative teams (especially with the steelers under Cowher) that are having success because of it.

I do not blame Herm in the very least for the poor performance of the Offensive Coordinator last year. Herm does not call the plays and he never has. So the thing people keep saying “If Herm leaves Gailey alone we’ll be fine” is silly. He left Solari alone. He just wanted him to stay within the overall philosophy of the team. Play defense, have a strong running game and keep your defense rested. Score points however you can. Nothing wrong with that. The problem was Solari couldn’t even make a 1st down.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 9, 2008 6:20 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

football is a crazy game

safeties, failed 4th-down conversions, halftimes, and probably a couple other things also end drives

by stag on Jul 10, 2008 8:43 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Chris,

I respectfully beg to differ. Although the o-line was a disaster, Herm could have done something to make the offense more effective. Instead, he either allowed or forced Solari to rely on the run,run,pass, punt offense which was pathetic. Either thought is scary. If he (Herm) couldn’t correct the problems on offense, he should have taken steps to make sure that it was taken care of. If he forced Solari to call those idiot plays time and time again, that is worse. Whatever the case, Herm is to blame. If Gailey is the man let him be the man and let someone who actually knows something about offense handle it.

by G.L. on Jul 9, 2008 10:01 AM CDT   0 recs

Good point

Herm should have done something as the head coach. With Solari calling plays, I’m just not sure what he should have done. We had an ineffective coach at the helm of the offense.

by Chris on Jul 9, 2008 10:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What could he have done?

Who else was there on the coaching staff that was capable of taking over as Offensive Coordinator in the middle of the season? Dick Curl? There was no one.

Herm had no choice but to stick with what he had and dump him as soon as possible when the season got over.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 9, 2008 6:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

There's lies, damn lies and then there's statistics

Chris,
I think your stats are skewed. Ridiculous Matt pretty much covered the field goal side of the issue. But anther factor for the lack of both field goals and punts can be attributed to the pace of the chiefs offense. Herm says he wants to shorten the game, and he does. The offense runs methodical and slow. I don’t think I’ve ever seen the Herm Chiefs run a hurry up offense unless they were down by 45 points with 22 seconds left to go. The Chiefs eat up the clock, which limits their chances to punt or kick a field goal.
A better stat to track might be 4th down attempts. Or you could look at what plays were run on 3rd down to determine if Herm plays for the 1st or the punt.

by mushin on Jul 9, 2008 11:54 AM CDT   0 recs

Half the teams in the league run conservative offenses

Its not like Herm is the only one.

People keep trying to spin the numbers with suggestions as to why they cannot be accurate, but never actually break down hard evidence themselves to prove it. They just say “oh this must be the reason or you’re skewing that”.

I don’t want to hear that. If you don’t think the numbers are accurate, PROVE IT with numbers of your own.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 9, 2008 6:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree...sorta

:)

I was starting to look for those numbers when I got caught by my boss at work…hehehehe.

I went covert and grabbed a few minutes to look at stats. I have to admit that I was surprised. Here’s what I found:

2007 KC Chiefs-
Plays from Scrimmage- 1001 (17th)
4th down attemtps- 18 (11th)
4th downs made- 13 (3rd)
4th downs pct- 72% (3rd)

So the stats I suggested did not bear out what I said. Not even Time of Possession:

Avg Time of Possession per Game: 30:02 (17th)

The problem I have with these stats, especially the 4th down attempt stats show a middle of the road coach that is at heart a risk taker. That is not the Herm Edwards I know. Furthermore these stats really skew what happened last year when they are taken out of context.

If we are going to use stats to define Herm I think we have to wait until he has a team of his making to create those stats.

Now don’t get me wrong. I actually LOVE what the Chiefs are doing. If it’s broke the you by god fix it.! And I actually like what Herm stands for. Good fundamentals. Solid Defense. Teamwork. I think it can be a winning combo. Besides, I thought Vermil’s teams were going to put me in the ER with a stress induced heart attack. It was just that last year was so flippin hard to watch. And if we want to look at stats here’s the stat that kills…

2007 Kansas City Chiefs

3rd Down Attempts- 232 (5th)
3rd Downs Made- 79 (26th)
3rd Down Pct- 34 FLIPPIN % (26th)

by mushin on Jul 10, 2008 3:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hurry Up Offense

Mushin,

Your post covers exactly what I have been saying all along about Herm’s offense. If your philosophy is “keep it close and slug it out at the end”, if you get down by two scores, you are pretty much down the tubes. Herm’s game is not a catch up/ hurry up kind of game. He comes unglued, and continues to plod in the original game plan long after another team has slapped the Chiefs across the face with a couple of quick scores. That was pretty much everybody’s game plan against the Chiefs last year. Hit the Chiefs hard early, stop the run, and the game is yours.

by G.L. on Jul 9, 2008 1:23 PM CDT   0 recs

This is where the BAD CLOCK MANAGEMENT

comes in. Why not strike fast and first, and then grind it out in the second half of the game. He has said in the past that he will not go red ball in the final two minutes of the half. As far as Solari goes as an O-coordinator he was a o-line coach most of his career, I think we should have seen a run heavy game plan coming. With Vermeil we were way to busy scoring TD’S, did not have time for field goals.(Anyone miss Al Saunders, that was fun to watch) Welcome back Mawk!

by Eric Allen on Jul 9, 2008 4:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Great idea

Great idea, I am sure it never occurred to them to score first. You need some horses to do that. Last year we were riddled with injuries which made it tough to do. To start off, our line sucked and it got worse do to injuries. Then you add the fact that we played the majority of the season with a fourth and fifth string running back. Dunn was hurt along with Kennison. Pretty hard to do much of anything when your hands are tied. Solari wasn’t a good coordinator to start with. Add all of that to it and he never had a chance.

You need weapons to be successful in this league. Marty was tabbed with being conservative and rightfully so. He had weapons in San Diego and that all changed. Look at Dungy when he was in Tampa Bay. Basically the same thing. Herm could do the same things with the right players. Most coaches good coaches learn and addapt. Let’s hope that Herm does the same.

by cmpotter on Jul 9, 2008 5:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I mean this year

Hopefully he does adapt and stick to defense. Herms biggest mistake was letting Saunders go and expect a high powered offense.

by Eric Allen on Jul 9, 2008 7:26 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No choice

He didn’t really have a choice but to let him go. He wanted to be the next head coach of the CHiefs and Peterson didn’t agree. He got head coach money to go the the Redskins. The real mistake was to promote someone to O-coordinator with no experience at calling plays. Solari was a good O-line coach that should have been kept at the position.

by cmpotter on Jul 11, 2008 1:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

This is why we brought in Chan Gailey

Our offense line was horrible last year which had a lot to do with our bad offense. But to go along with that is that Herms offensive philosophy is to conservative. This effected the way Mike Solari would call the game. Now I am not defending Solari (HE was a horrible O-Coordinator) but Herm had a lot of influence on him and the play calling which added to our demise.

With the adding of Chan Gailey I think we have a proven offensive coordinator whom Herm can trust. I surely hope Herm will let Chan do his thing because I cant stand watching anymore runs on third and long and passes on third and inches. A little surprise is good everyonce in awhile, but come on Herm not every freakin time

by ChiefsWolf24 on Jul 9, 2008 1:50 PM CDT   0 recs

Go for it , Herm

By saying the things I have said in this column, I don’t want anybody to get the wrong idea. I am behind the Chiefs 100 per cent. I really do hope Chan Gailey will do quite well in the offensive coordinator position. Conversely, I hope Herm Edwards does well as the head coach. To do so, I think he needs to let Chan do his thing on offense. So, to Herm Edwards I say, show me!

by G.L. on Jul 9, 2008 2:07 PM CDT   0 recs

You need bullets to shoot the gun

Get the man an effective o-line and a healthy LJ and he’ll be fine.

I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am.

by KCking on Jul 9, 2008 2:17 PM CDT   0 recs

Two Things

It’s a real stretch to compare Herm’s Chiefs to Vermiel’s. Here’s why your stats don’t mean too much in my book.

1. Vermiel’s team should have more FGA’s than Herms. They were in scoring position a lot more… and several of those were probably gimme’s because we just didn’t score a TD on that drive. Herm’s teams weren’t as offensively potent.

2. Vermiel’s teams likely had more possessions on offense because the defense was AWFUL. Great, we scored 38 points and the other team had 35. Good thing we got that extra FG. This is my explanation of why the punt data isn’t skewed as much as you’d think.

So I guess I’d need to see some data on # of offensive possessions between the two before I buy in to any of this.

by Ochophosphate on Jul 9, 2008 11:16 PM CDT   0 recs

BTW

I didn’t mean to imply I didn’t like the post. It actually got me thinking for a while.

come on training camp, hurry up and get here… I’m debating punts and field goals for Pete’s sake!

Matt Jones picked the wrong time to get busted for blow in Ark. There’s nothing else to talk about, he’s going to get obliterated.

by Ochophosphate on Jul 10, 2008 1:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Isn't the measure of a head coach how his entire team plays, not just the offense?

So Herms philosophy is grind it out, have a dominant defense that stays rested by your offense burning time off the clock when you can control it.

It almost sounds like you are saying that it doesn’t matter that Herm and Vermeils numbers are similar because he didn’t score mounds of points. Herm doesn’t care about being 1st in the league in scoring, thats not the plan. The plan is to win games and if that means you have 25% less plays than the leading offense, then so be it.

If Herm speeds the game up and limits his own offenses number of possessions, he is doing the same thing to the opposing offense. Which if you are playing a high octane offense like the Pats or the Vermeil Chiefs is how you beat them. The less Tom Brady or Peyton Manning are on the field, the less opportunity they have to bury you.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 10, 2008 5:43 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Here are the important numbers

Since everyone keeps talking about the limited number of plays with Herms teams because of the style of offense he plays, I did some figuring.

From 2001-2006

Number 1 Offense avg plays per point = 2.16
Herms teams avg plays per point = 3.09
\Number 32 Offense avg plays per point = 4.5

What is important to note about all of this is that the number of plays is not really important since if you play a slow it down, grind it out offense like Herm does, you will have fewer possessions, but so will your opponent. Thats how you beat a Tom Brady or Peyton Manning. You keep them off the field so they don’t have time to bury you.

Its what you do with your possessions that counts. Note that Herms teams, though often at the bottom of the league in plays from scrimmage due to his philosophy of running the ball and running time off the clock, he is usually much closer to the top of the league in plays per point than the bottom.

Remember that an intrinsic part of Herms philosophy is having a dominant defene. So if you make the most of each possession on offense and have a defense that can prevent the opponent from doing the same, you have a recipe to win. You can argue that Herm has not always been succesful at combining the two parts of the equation, but that does not mean the philosophy and the direction he is trying to take the team is unsound.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 10, 2008 6:37 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah but Herms

Jets took a major spankin at the hands of Vermiels Chiefs. So I guess that is not really how you beat them.

by Eric Allen on Jul 12, 2008 9:51 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Herm squirm

Sorry, but Herm is not the man to bring K.C. back to being a Super Bowl football team. Although Herm has done some things which have been beneficial for the team, unless he has an epiphany about the role of a good offense, the Chiefs are bound to replay Marty Ball with the results being “no cigar”. Herm could have taken over the offensive play calling himself during last season’s fiasco, if he had known anything about offense. Shoot, Shanahan has basically run Denver’s offense for years. That is one reason Heimerdinger left Denver after last season. Heimerdinger was tired of being the Offensive Coordinator in name only. Saying that Herm couldn’t have done anything to help the offense in a nine game losing streak is what is really ridiculous.

by G.L. on Jul 12, 2008 9:40 AM CDT   0 recs

Stats

Last year the Chiefs were next to last in the league in overall offense. The Chiefs were dead last in rushing. The Chiefs were next to last in scoring. Even though the Chief’s defense was respectable in terms of the total points scored against them, the offense was outscored by opposing offenses by more than one hundred points. The defense is not that bad. Sounds like to me the grind it out, ball control, run three yards in a cloud of dirt offense is maybe not so very effective.

by G.L. on Jul 12, 2008 11:12 AM CDT   0 recs

It will have a much better chance of working

with an improved offensive line and a healthy LJ.

by Seth_C on Jul 12, 2008 11:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bonus if Croyle hits stride

As it is they will have to respect Bowe in addition to Gonz and LJ. If Croyle makes the expected progression this year… Bowe and Gonz become more dangerous. This would benefit the #2 & 3 WR’s as well.

It feels like it’s not that far out of reach, just a few more clicks. I think having Croyle as the decided #1 all through camp will be a benefit. I think having the line determined will benefit. This team needs continuity, and that’s something we really haven’t had in a while. We’ve been patching holes for years… we finally built something new from the ground up.

Saturday… it always brings out the optimist in me.

by Ochophosphate on Jul 12, 2008 1:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You're reaching

I don’t think any REASONABLE person can blame Herms philosophy on last years preformance any more than you can the Jets 2003 meltdown when they had 18 players and 11 starters on I.R.

What can ANY offense do when you have the worst O-line in the league, using RBs off the practice squad, one of the worst special teams returners in the league and unreliable field goal kickers with a horrible O.C. being pushed on you to boot?

There are serious pieces missing to make Herms philosophy work just like there is on ANY rebuilding team. Getting LJ back will help immensely (remember, 4-3 with him, 0-9 without him), as will getting an experienced O.C. who has had success everywhere he’s been in the NFL.

Remember that this will be the 3rd year of rebuilding the O-line (4th if you count it from when Gun got here) and this year will be the FIRST year rebuilding the Offense. You can’t judge the philosophy when they are still trying to bring in the people to pull it off.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 12, 2008 9:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Reaching? Not!

Check with me in two years. The offense will improve under Chan Gailey. The only limiting factor will be the non understanding of any offense by the head coach. The reason Herm Edwards did not intervene last year was because he either did not know how, approved of Solari’s poor play selection, or Herm implemented the play calling himself. Any of those options is bad. Or could it be that Herm just felt like he could let Solari mastermind a nine game losing streak and then do something after the season? Say what?

by G.L. on Jul 13, 2008 5:48 PM CDT   0 recs

Or...

maybe he didn’t intervene because he knew there’s not a lot that can be fixed by coaching changes with a horrible O-line, and injured starting RB for the second half of the year (and of his backups, one retired, one was a rookie, and two were practice squad guys), a young QB in his first few starting opportunities, a receiving corps that featured little to nothing outside of Bowe and Gonzalez, a horrible kick/punt returner, and a revolving door at the kicker spot.

Geez, you’d think absolutely everything was Herm’s fault. What, did he cause the U.S. economy to slip and gas prices to rise, too?

by Seth_C on Jul 13, 2008 6:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Solari was not the only problem

There was about 7 different problems that combined conspired to make us as bad as we were. Sure, Solari could be replaced… by who? Herm is the head coach, he has more than enough to do without having to call plays which is the whole reason you don’t have an offensive coordinator in the first place. Three of the other coaches were also fired last year. That leaves what, Dick Curl ? Yeah great option.

Regardless of who the O-Coordinator was last year, you still had a new QB running an offense with players who knew it was going to be their last year on the team with 4th, 5th and 6th string RBs and a return man who couldn’t get the ball past the 10 yard line and FG kickers who missed every other attempt.

They did what the could to make adjustments in season, but if you don’t just ditch your O.C. in the middle of the season and expect things to get better, nor do you find quality players to replace failing ones in the middle of the season.

Herm did what he could. Make what adjustments he could and just grin and bear it and wait for the season to end so you can fix it for real.

You are making yourself sound ridiculous by trying to pin this all on Herm.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 13, 2008 7:30 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Should a true head coach

be able to handle all aspects of the game, make adjustments where and when they are needed. If the season was lost by mid-season even if other players did not have the coaches confidence, they should have been tried to see if they could cut it or to gain game experience. Yeah I agree it was slim pickins, but some adjustment should have been made. The offense will be better this year, but it will be due to an experienced coord, not Herm’s approach to the game.

by Eric Allen on Jul 13, 2008 9:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Eric

Its easy to say we should have done this or that in hindsight. But would it have been better for the development of the players? Solari was bad but no matter who they had available would have been worse. I don’t think Herm claims to be any kind of offensive genius at calling plays. Say what you want about him, but he knows his limitations. Luckily, it is not the head coaches job to call plays.

I’m not sure which players you’re talking about not getting played. Pretty much everyone on the roster plus most of the practice squad had game time. So I’m a little confused by that comment.

I’m not sure why people have such a difficult time with Herms philosophy. Its the same philosophy Schottenheimer had, its the same philosophy Bill Cowher had, its the same philosophy Lovie Smith had and its the same philosophy Tony Dungy had up to the point that he got a future Hall of Fame QB.

The overarching philosophy Herm espouses is sound and proven. What he has needed his entire career is a good offensive coordinator that could work WITHIN the philosophy. Thats why Cowher was succesful, why Dungy was succesful and ultimately may have been the difference between Schottenheimer being the winningest coach to never play in the Super Bowl and going down in history as one of the best coaches ever.

So yeah, I think it pretty much goes without saying that if the offense improves considerably, a lot of the credit is going to go to Chan Gailey. But as we’ve discussed in the past, you can’t blame the coach for everything bad and not give him credit when things go well. The buck stops at the head coach and if you guys want to blast him for the poor play of the offense last year despite all the problems, Im going to hold your feet to the flame to praise him when it starts doing well.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 13, 2008 10:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Waiting

If I deserve it, by all means hold my feet to the fire at a later date upon Herm’s proven success. I don’t think that farce last year will be repeated this year. I also don’t think that overall Herm’s philosophy will succeed or prosper with the Chiefs in the long run. The best we will get will be a retread of Marty Ball. When Herm fails are you Herm’s back pocket guys ready to have your feet held to the fire?

by G.L. on Jul 14, 2008 8:50 AM CDT   0 recs

For me

Herm has until this contract is up to get us back in the playoffs. Once that contract is up if we’re still floundering, its time for a change. Thats my deadline.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 14, 2008 5:04 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree

but do not burn my feet to bad I still need to work. DJ, I have said all along that if this plan proves to work out I will eat crow. I am optimistic that the team will be better this year, hell I think they might even be in the running to take the west, but we will have to have a superbowl win or hell even appearance before I credit Herm. I still firmly believe his success in NY was due to a team Parcells put together, and the carryover effect. Yes I know injury’s happen, but once he got his players in there the wheels came off. We have had this discussion before I believe.

by Eric Allen on Jul 14, 2008 5:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yup

I think you and I are past that point and pretty much understand each other pretty well. However, I don’t think you fire Herm if he makes this team succesful but don’t have a SB appearance in two years. I see it being stages of improvment. I think 2009 is when his current contract is up. I fully expect the Chiefs to be at least a wildcard team again by 2009. Then I think you’ve got to give him another several years to take his newly succesful team all the way. Heck, look how long Dungy and Cowher went before they finally got in the Super Bowl EVEN WITH Peyton Manning.

I still don’t really understand the people like G.L. who talk about Marty Ball as though it were a bad thing. Those Marty Ball years were the most succesful this team has been since Lenny Dawson.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 14, 2008 6:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah I agree in the Marty ball years,but

The Vermiel offense was a blast to watch! Only if we had a D, there would be at least one SB title.(03)

by Eric Allen on Jul 14, 2008 6:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah Vermeils offense was fun to watch but...

One playoff appearance in six years, three of those years with the #1 scoring offense in the league and in the top couple the rest of those years. And don’t forget how that one playoff appearance turned out. We punt ONE TIME and lose.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 14, 2008 6:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Dumb question:

Are you talking about the 31-38 playoff game against the Colts? If so, wasn’t that game completely puntless?

Not that this has anything to due with your topic. :P

by Mully on Jul 14, 2008 8:07 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Seth C.

Actually, yes, I am a little torqued about gas prices and the economy. The next time you have coffee with Herm, see what he can do about it , please.

by G.L. on Jul 14, 2008 9:04 AM CDT   0 recs

While I would be happy

to have the chance to have coffee with Herm, I don’t think it’s gonna happen very soon. But if that somehow does happen, I’ll make sure to ask. ;P

I agree with everyone that Herm does not have more than a few years left to prove that he can win with his philosophy. If and when his philosophy turns out not to work, when he’s had a good year or two to try it out with a capable staff, I’ll be calling for his firing along with everyone else.

by Seth_C on Jul 14, 2008 8:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ChiefDJ

When I think of Marty Ball, I think of the frustration of being “this close” and still not going to the big game. Yes, the Chiefs won a lot of games, and yes I even liked Marty, but he still lacked what was required in terms of offense to do the job. I am afraid Herm Edwards will represent the same kind of frustration. Some of the things he has done, I wholeheartedly agree with. What it amounts to is, if the team begins to win but fails to win in the playoffs it will just be same song, second verse. You see Marty actually knew offense but Herm does not. I don’t see how Herm could possibly succeed where Marty failed. By the way, Marty has since changed to Smarty Ball realizing in San Diego that offense is a HUGE part of the equation. Had the owner not sent Marty packing, Marty may indeed have gone down in NFL annals as one of the greatest coaches of all time.

by G.L. on Jul 14, 2008 7:34 PM CDT   0 recs

Last I checked

San Diego didn’t go to the Super Bowl with “Smarty” or even after he was removed from the picture entirely, so I don’t really see how thats making your case.

Schottenheimer not going to the Super Bowl has aboslutely NOTHING to do with his offensive philosophy and everything to do with the man being cursed. I mean, seriously. “The Drive”, “The Fumble”, “Lin Elliott”, etc. The man has extremely poor luck. Look at his win/loss record.

It all starts with having a good team with talented players. From there on, you have to have luck as well. If not, the Patriots, who were by far the best team in the league last year, would have won the Super Bowl no questions asked and the Giants, who barely scraped into the playoffs wouldn’t have stood a chance.

So I will kindly disagree with you and your opinions and will prefer to wait and see how things work out.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 14, 2008 8:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

What I meant

WHat I meant by look at his win/loss record was see how good it is but how something bad always happens in the playoffs.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 14, 2008 8:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Coffee with Herm

Hey Seth, lol, if Herm ever does invite you to coffee, may I go along so I can talk to Herm about offense?

by G.L. on Jul 14, 2008 8:30 PM CDT   0 recs

Absolutely!

Yeah, I’ll pencil you in as soon as he asks me.

by Seth_C on Jul 14, 2008 9:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

DJ, you stirred the pot well! Well done!

Cannot wait till the season starts, while I may not like the head coach or his approach to the game I love the Chiefs! Cannot wait to hear, and the home of the CHIEFS!!!(Goosebumps already!)

by Eric Allen on Jul 14, 2008 9:06 PM CDT   0 recs

What I meant was

if Marty had been given the chance to remain in San Diego, things may have been different. The discontinuity factor with Norv Turner changed things. Marty was on the crux of what might have been the next football dynasty had it been allowed to develop. Whatever the case,the Chiefs under Marty coming up short in the 1993 AFC playoffs after having won the AFC West is not enough for me. Second best is not good enough.

by G.L. on Jul 14, 2008 10:04 PM CDT   0 recs

The point is

As I said earlier, you can have the best team in the league breaking all kinds of records like the Patriots did last year and if you run into the wrong team at the wrong time and have some bad luck, you still end up not winning the big game.

The fact that the Schottenheimer Chiefs never got to the Super Bowl does not mean they weren’t a good team nor does it mean they didn’t have the ability to win it all if they had had a little better luck. People take “winning it all” too literally.

If the only game of the year you enjoy is your team winning the Super Bowl, its no wonder some people are so cranky. Just sit back and enjoy the season as it is. There’s at least 16 games every year that you’re missing out on a lot of fun. Learn to enjoy the journey as well as the destination.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 14, 2008 10:16 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well said, DJ

Every team has about a 3% chance of winning the Super Bowl every year. (1/32) NFL coaches know that if their team doesn’t get above .500 for a few years, they will be replaced. They should be. If you consistently get double digit wins during the season, you should probably stay.

I’ll grant you that there could be a head coach that doesn’t plan for greatness - doesn’t have a goal of winning it all - and because of it they have winning records in the regular season, but then lack the hunger to step it up a notch in January. They should also be replaced. I suspect that Marty’s fate had more to do with luck, and less about preparation, mindset and schemes that lacked Super Bowl worthiness.

Right now, I believe Herm’s commitment to teamwork, physical and mental toughness, defensive scheming, player selection and preparation are capable of producing a Super Bowl. My concern is whether he has the passion and expertise to field a Super Bowl offense. Just as Vermeil focused on creating a wonderful offense and allowing the defense to do “just enough,” the same is true of Herm, I fear, but obviously on the other side of the ball. You play offense to ultimately score points. That’s number one. Time of possession and a lack of turnovers will follow, but should not be the number one, unconscious, drill-the-point-home goal of the offense. First downs and touchdowns, baby!

by sunny D on Jul 15, 2008 6:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

By the way

who on earth said the only game I enjoy is the Super Bowl. I am pumped every Sunday for the red and gold. For crying out loud, Herm doesn’t even watch the Super Bowl. What is with that? And this guy is the coach. Jeeeez…....................

by G.L. on Jul 15, 2008 10:06 AM CDT   0 recs

Well said

Everysunday when the Chiefs play I get so pumped. The fans have been so spoiled. They need to enjoy watching this young team come together. It may be ugly at some points but they are still our Chiefs.

by cmpotter on Jul 16, 2008 10:33 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Also, in all the discussion about the head coaches

there hasn’t been more than a casual mention of the o-coordinators under the respective coaches discussed: Herm, Marty, Cowher, Dungy, etc. One thing that I don’t think has gotten the attention it deserves is what kind of O-coordinators these coaches had under them, and how large of a part they played in the team’s offensive (and then total) success.

My hope is that Herm’s focusing on defense will allow Chan to have nearly complete control over the offense, which earlier in the post some were questioning w/ regards to Solari (and how, if he had that complete control it probably should have been taken away mid-season). I would ask those who think that HERM can’t get the Chiefs over the hump into some playoff WINS, whether they think that a coordinator that’s been proven to be very resourceful with the players he’s been given (if that’s not Chan’s M.O. I don’t know what is), AND has near complete control over the offense (which I suspect is how Herm/Chan will do things), will be able to run the offensive side of things well enough to get the Chiefs into some playoff success?

My hope and belief is that Herm and Gun can manage the D to a super-bowl caliber (over time…not there yet), and that if we can get an O-coordinator w/ that capacity, he will be pretty much left alone to manage the offense and bring it up to a SB caliber as well. I have no idea whether Chan is the man for that, but that’s what so fun about being a fan. I’m ready for TRAINING CAMP!

by thehulk on Jul 20, 2008 11:40 AM CDT   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed

Search

User Tools

Welcome to SB Nation's Kansas City Chiefs blog!

FanPos