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Do the Kansas City Chiefs really need a Fullback?

From the FanPosts. -Chris

Very interesting analysis by JJ Cooper at AOL Fanhouse comparing the Pittsburg Steelers offense when it uses a Fullback vs. the 2 TE formation.

Going into the 2007 season, there was much ado made about who the Steelers FB would be and offensive coordinator Bruce Arians moves towards using more double TE sets.

As it turns out when the season was finished,  Willie Parker had more productive runs and Ben Roethlesburger was a more productive passer in the 2 TE sets by a considerable margin over having a blocking FB in the backfield.

PARKER'S STATS
Form. ATT YDS AVG
1 TE 410 1754 4.28
2 TE
331 1530 4.62
What's most telling is how much more common it was for the Steelers to use one back and two tight end sets last year. Parker had 177 carries out of a one-back formation in 2005 and 2006 combined. But when Whisenhunt left for Arizona, he took the fullback-centered offense with him. Last year, Parker had 184 carries out of a one-back set, and as you can see from the stats, he was very effective out of the one-back formation.
 

The story is the same for Roethlisberger. He had more attempts last year (78) out of two tight end sets, than he had in either 2005 (when he had 55 attempts) or 2006 (42 attempts). But what's most remarkable is how good Roethlisberger is out of two tight end sets. In the past three seasons, Roethlisberger has 21 touchdowns and only four interceptions when throwing out of two tight end sets. He has 16 touchdowns and 15 interceptions when throwing out of one tight end sets.

BIG BEN'S STATS
Form. A C Yards YPA
1 TE 259 426 3108 7.3
2 TE 115 175 1648 9.4
About the only stat that I could find where Roethlisberger was worse when throwing out of two tight end sets was his sack percentage. He's a little more prone to being sacked (11 percent of attempts compared to 8 percent), but that is more than made up for by his increased productivity when he gets the ball off.

This is a similar discussion we've heard Herm Edwards and Chan Gailey discuss, whether they will take 3 TEs and a FB or simply go with 4 TEs and no FB.  There are obvious benefits to both. 

With 2 TE formations, not only do you have extra blockers on the offensive line that will help out rookie LT Branden Albert and provide extra protection for Brodie Croyle, you also have an additional receiving target (and another player the defense has to account for), and big targets at that with Tony Gonzalez (6'5") and Brad Cottam (6'7"). 

On the other hand, if the Chiefs can find an effective blocking FB that can clear the lanes for LJ (if our offense is capable of creating lanes this year that is) that would be worth its weight in gold right there.  I'm not all that jazzed about the FB catching out of the backfield, its nice, but it reminds me too much of Mike Solari's negative yardage passes to Kris Wilson last year.  I have high hopes that Chan Gailey is going to be trying to move forward down the field rather than sideways and backwards.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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"Strategery"

“I have high hopes that Chan Gailey is going to be trying to move forward down the field rather than sideways and backwards.” That was part of Solari’s offensive gameplan…on 1st down, run a sweep to the left for 2 yards. On 2nd down, throw a 1 yard pass to Mr. Versatile in the right flat. Now that the defense is thinking you are always going sideways, on 3rd and 7 you can throw the bomb…oh wait, that requires an offensive line…crap.

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 1, 2008 7:08 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Seriously though

I think a 2 TE set with Gonzalez and Cottam could be difficult to defend…We all know most LB’s can’t keep up with Tony, and I think Cottam is even faster than Gonzalez. Both of them are much bigger than DB’s, so now there will be two mismatches running down the seams. I am assuming that they will double Tony and give safety help on Bowe, leaving Cottam and the #2 WR facing single coverage. Now if we run 2 TE sets, we can’t do what Solari did, and only put in the 2nd TE when we were running to his side. I swear, every time Dunn went in last season, the whole freakin’ stadium new we were going to rush behind him. A few years ago, our line was so dominant that we could get away with that; we could have put up a big flashing sign that said “Hey, we’re going to run a toss sweep left behind Dunn, Shields, and Roaf.” and we still would have gotten 6 yards. But now that our line is composed of mere mortals, we will actually have to trick the defense a little (and I am sure Gailey will). I love the idea of running a considerable number of our plays from 2 TE sets, both rushing and passing.

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 1, 2008 7:15 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed

The two TE set brings lots of versatility but, there is nothing wrong with changing it up. We were so predictable the last two years that having multiple options should take the load off of Croyle. Big Ben is successful because of the simplicity but, also the versatility of what the Steelers can do.

by cmpotter on Jul 3, 2008 1:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Sounds good to me.

Just from this fans standpoint it looks like we have much more talent at TE compared to full back. So I say go where the talent is. If that means keeping 4 TEs then so be it.

http://www.kcchiefsfootball.com

http://www.kcchiefsfootball.com/
Go Chiefs!

by bigknoxy on Jul 1, 2008 8:54 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

KC needs a fullback

Only one fullback can catch out of the four. Only one has the frame. Only one has the speed. He is Mike Cox. the chiefs will not be sucessful with out him.

by MikeCox42 on Jul 1, 2008 9:47 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

+1

If you are indeed Mike Cox of the Kansas City Chiefs, Welcome! If not, welcome anyway!

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 3, 2008 6:53 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I dunno...

His profile says he’s a Lambs fan… something smells fishy!

by Ochophosphate on Jul 3, 2008 11:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We’ve got to have a good blocking fullback just for the sake of pass protection.

by dorsey on Jul 1, 2008 11:08 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why?

Would not a blocking TE be a better pass blocker than a FB?

by ChiefDJ on Jul 1, 2008 11:42 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It depends

I think a blocking TE would be better at helping one of our tackles with a DE, but a TE will be no help against a LB blitzing up the middle. We probably need both…would it be crazy to carry 4 TE’s and a FB on the roster?

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 1, 2008 12:32 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I wish we should.

We will want that extra developed TE if Tony G retires in the next few years. We need a fullback too though, and no more H-back experiments.

by Vince D on Jul 1, 2008 2:44 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Along with run blocking, the fullback’s job is to stay near the quarterback and block any defenders that happen to make it past the offensive line. In the case of the Chiefs, having that last defender is crucial, considering our youthful line. Tight ends, just because of their position on the line, are at a disadvantage.

by dorsey on Jul 2, 2008 9:54 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think

that is more so a formation, as opposed to a guideline. Instead of not having a fullback, we will just take him out. There are teams that don’t have a fullback, and it definetly works, but Chan Gaileys offense needs a fullback because of the formations we use. The reason why Willie Parker had bigger gains out of a 2 TE set compared to I form or another fullback-including formation is because it is not such an obvious running situation, leading to different coverages and ultimately, bigger plays. The reason that this works is because of formations that use fullbacks tend to run more often then they pass, and vice versa for 2 TE sets (as well as shotgun, and any other formation for that matter). Its basically using the run to set up the pass.

Basically, we could go without a fullback if we wanted to (like some teams have done), but we won’t because a fullback is part of our offense, plain and simple. It really isn’t so much strategy as it is just Chan Gaileys style of football. Personally, I am a fullback kind-of-a-guy, but no fullback would work just as fine. However, Willie Parker did not gain those extra yards because they 2 TE set is better for running, he did because when you run in a 2 TE set, you are more likely to break off a big play (after all, the fullbacks bread and butter is short yardage anyways).

by Ben S on Jul 1, 2008 12:38 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't know that that line of reasoning follows

The more guys you have up on the line of scrimmage blocking for you, the more push your line gets. Isn’t the whole idea of it that you get as many yards for each run as you can? I don’t know that they have very many plays in the playbook where they are thinking “OK, this play we are only going to get 2 yards”. They want to get as much with each play as possible. So if you make more yardage out of the 2 TE set, why would you not use it all the time?

Obviously there are situations where a FB is more useful, say if you are on the goal line and the defense knows you’re going to try to jam it in there. But when there is a FB in the backfield, the defense knows that 9 times out of 10, he’s there for blocking and nothing else, usually for the run. With 2 TEs, they both COULD be there for blocking or they both COULD be there to go out on pass routes. What if you have Tony G, our “receiving TE” and Brad Cottam, our “blocking TE” in at the same time. You could use both to block, both to go out in pass paterns, or use Tony G as a decoy (how many times was he double and triple teamed last year?) and still pass it out to Cottam who is still a capable receiver. If the other team has a guy assigned to Gonzalez (as most teams were doing last year) you can just leave him in to block with Cottam running a route and you’ve basically made the guy assigned to Gonzalez useless while still getting Gonzalez blocking someone else.

The reason the 2 TE set helps both the RB AND the QB improve their success is because the defense has a much tougher time guessing what you’re going to do with it. It is a compact formation that can be used to bash out the run, or it can explode in all directions crossing up defenders in defending the pass.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 1, 2008 5:37 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When I played Madden 2007

Jason Dunn would have monster games for exactly that reason. I’d line up in some ridiculous jumbo formation with 2 or 3 TE’s and run a play in which Gonzalez blocked and Dunn ran a route or both ran a route…it seemed like Dunn was open a LOT of the time (which is amazing given his turtle-like speed in that game) – I actually had several 100 yd. games with Dunn.

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 2, 2008 7:04 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

reasons reasons

Typically a two tight end set is ran to make up for a weak line or lack of a fullback. Last year we had no fullback and were planning on using the 2TE set. When Dunn couldn’t play we were stuck with two receiving tightends and a craptacular line. I am sure if you asked LT what he preferred, he would take Lorenzo Neal over Gates and a good blocking tightend on running plays. Back when Chiefs offense was top in the league, a key person was T. Rich. Dunn was brought in on short yardage but Richardson was also in the same formations. I think the 2TE set is getting overrated. It isn’t ran as much as you might think.

by cmpotter on Jul 7, 2008 1:37 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Basically

why wouldn’t we just do both? Well, I can assure you we will.

by Ben S on Jul 1, 2008 12:42 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Undoubtedly we will

But the question is, how often are we going to use the FB compared to the 2 TE set? Teams like the Steelers are moving farther and farther away from the FB. And if it ends up we aren’t going to use a FB all that often, is it really worth eating up a roster spot with him or can we not develop offensive plays to make up for not having a FB in those rare situations where one is called for?

Kris Wilson was 6’2” 250 lbs., considered a receiving TE
Mike Merritt is 6’3” 270 lbs., considered a blocking TE

Could you not take 4 TEs and no true FB, but work with Merritt on handling the handful of situations that you would need a FB to fill in? Kris Wilson was never intended to be a blocking FB and very rarely did they ever ask him to block for the run. He was simply put in that position to try to get him on the field to use his talents.

If Merritt has that capability to be used as a jumbo blocking TE when they want him and double as a lead blocker for goal line situations, that would be a very economical use of the roster spot that would allow us to get another talented player on the squad.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 1, 2008 5:45 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Big if...but if

Merritt could pull it off, that would be huge for us. 6’3” and 270 lbs. ? That is a horse of a lead-blocking FB on the goal-line.

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 2, 2008 7:11 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

However

I actually think Gailey is going to want a true FB who is a good run and pass blocker (so that the defense can’t assume run when the FB comes in) and who is somewhat a receiving threat out of the backfield. Imagine this scenario – 3rd and 5, Charles and Cox are in the backfield, Tony and Cottam are in at TE and Bowe is the lone WR. The CB on Bowe will get safety help over the top and the LB on Gonzalez will need help from the other safety. This leaves a LB on Charles (mismatch) a LB on Cox and a CB on Cottam (mismatch) – that is a decent set-up for a 5 yard pass play, and that’s good for a Kansas City Chiefs…First Down (assuming they don’t run through our o-line like it’s made of wet toilet paper)

by PVChiefsfan on Jul 2, 2008 7:17 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Do the Chiefs need a fullback?

Yeah, if we wanna effectively run the ball “up the middle”.
Even in Edward’s first year when Johnson got a million carries, we had to run to the perimeter more than we would have liked because we didn’t have a “T-Rich” to blow open holes.
Gailey and Edwards both like power running attacks—we need a talented, full time fullback.

by BigRedOne on Jul 8, 2008 5:18 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

need a fullback

What has gailey done in the past? I’ll trust his judgement. Having said that, Iike keeping the option of having a REAL fullback. Where have you gone T-rich? Is Cox an NFL fullback?

by dklogue1 on Jul 11, 2008 6:59 AM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Go Get T.RICHARDSON

BRING BACK TRICH and Give him the money Carl Peterson or HERM whoever chose not to resign him they can owe him a apology… 2 Yrs 5mil and here ya go JUST CLEAR THE PATH BABY…

by Iconhulk on Jul 20, 2008 2:48 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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