How does Brodie Croyle compare to other recently drafted QBs

by ChiefDJ on Jun 28, 2008 1:11 PM CDT

From the FanPosts. Welcome SI.com readers! I know a lot of you are coming over here this morning and I wanted to make sure you checked out the rest of the site. Enjoy! -Chris

The following is a comparison of recently drafted QBs, the point of it being how those QBs relate to the Chiefs Brodie Croyle. Since they have had a variety of playing time, most of the stats will be displayed as percentages for a more consistent representation.

One thing you notice is that, especially amongst other QBs drafted in the 2006 class (same year as Croyle), how little variation there are amongst their stats, even with QBs who have had considerably more playing time than Croyle. As you go further down the list, you run into more established QBs who by their third year really took hold of their team and improved, but you do not see drastically higher stats.

Brodie Croyle    Kansas City Chiefs
2006, 3rd Rnd, #85 overall
Games 11   Games Started 6
Completion %         56.3
TD%                            2.6
INT%                           3.5
TD/INT Ratio              3:4 (6 TD, 8 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     5.4
QB Rating                65.8
Sack %                       7.2

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Vince Young   Tennessee Titans
2006, 1st Rnd, #3 overall
Games 30   Games Started 28
Completion %         57.1
TD%                            2.8
INT%                           4.1
TD/INT Ratio          21:30 (21 TD, 30 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     6.4
QB Rating                69.0
Sack %                       6.3

Matt Leinart    Arizona Cardinals
2006, 1st Rnd, #10 overall
Games 17   Games Started 16
Completion %         56.0
TD%                            2.7
INT%                           3.3
TD/INT Ratio          13:16 (13TD, 16 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     5.3
QB Rating                71.2
Sack %                       4.9

Jay Cutler    Denver Broncos
2006, 1st Rnd, #11 overall
Games 21   Games Started 21
Completion %         62.6
TD%                            4.8
INT%                           3.1
TD/INT Ratio         29:19 (29TD, 19 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     7.4
QB Rating                88.2
Sack %                       6.2

Kellen Clemens  NY Jets
2006, 2nd Rnd, #49 overall
Games 12   Games Started 8
Completion %         51.8
TD%                            2.0
INT%                           4.0
TD/INT Ratio              1:2 (5TD, 10 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     6.1
QB Rating                60.7
Sack %                     11.0

Tavaris Jackson    Minnesota Vikings
2006, 2nd Rnd, #64 overall
Games 16   Games Started 14
Completion %         58.1
TD%                            2.9
INT%                           4.3
TD/INT Ratio          11:16 (11TD, 16 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     6.4
QB Rating                69.0
Sack %                       6.7

Alex Smith  San Francisco 49ers
2005, 1st Rnd, #1 overall
Games 32   Games Started 30
Completion %         54.4
TD%                            2.4
INT%                           3.9
TD/INT Ratio          19:31 (19TD, 31 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     5.8
QB Rating                63.5
Sack %                       9.2

Jason Campbell    Washington Redskins
2005, 1st Rnd, #25 overall
Games 20   Games Started 20
Completion %         57.7
TD%                            3.5
INT%                           2.7
TD/INT Ratio         22:17 (22 TD, 17 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     6.4
QB Rating                77.3
Sack %                       4.3

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Everyone is hoping to find the next Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlesburger or Tom Brady, but lets face it, those are exceptional QBs that come along only once in a great while. For the sake of comparison, lets look at the stats of established QBs on succesful teams:

Eli Manning
2004, 1st Rnd, #1 overall
Games 57   Games Started 55
Completion %         54.7
TD%                            4.3
INT%                           3.5
TD/INT Ratio         77:64 (77TD, 64 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     6.3
QB Rating                73.4
Sack %                       4.9

Phillip Rivers   San Diego Chargers
2004, 1st Rnd, #4 overall
Games 36   Games Started 32
Completion %         60.8
TD%                            4.6
INT%                           2.6
TD/INT Ratio          44:25 (44TD, 25 INT)
Yds/Pass Attempt     7.0
QB Rating                86.6
Sack %                       5.2

_____________________________________________________

In the end, what this tells us is that we simply don't know enough about Brodie Croyle to say if he is or is not going to be a bust or a success. Players who are now established unquestioned starters for their teams with a much larger sampling have stats very similar to the small sample we had for Croyle.

Will Croyle improve and his stats improve as happened with Phillip Rivers and Cutler as they got more playing time? Will they remain at the low end like Vince Young and Alex Smith?

Another thing to note is that most of these QBs were high 1st round picks, whereas Croyle was a mid 3rd rounder. Are the stats for these other QBs so much greater as to on the face of them be worth the mega millions of dollars they are making?

What about the team surrounding the players? Its hard to argue that Croyle had the same chance to succeed with a broken down O-line and backup RB as Phillip Rivers did with a solid line in front of him and LaDanian Tomlinson and Michael Turner.

All this tells us is what we already know. We haven't seen enough of a sample of Croyle to know whether he is the franchise guy we have been looking for or not. But likewise, we have not seen enough of him to know he's not.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

0 recs | Comment 22 comments

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Comments

Lets remember.

That a comparison to vince young isn’t very accurate. He is a completely different type of player than croyle, making his stats irrelevant to croyles. As for his low end stats, lets not forget that he tends to pull off the big win, especially in crunch time.

As for the other qb's, pretty good job comparing, however 8 games really isn't a solid foundation to be used as a compass as to where a player is going, especially a quarterback. In science, the worst thing you can do is correlate data because that is when you tend to get a very wrong answer.

But, enjoyed the post anyways!

by Ben S on Jun 28, 2008 5:21 PM CDT 0 recs

Why?

Why does Young’s crappy stats not matter. Just because he makes plays with his legs doesn’t give him a free pass. He actually has a line that can block for him as do most of the QB’s on the list.

by cmpotter on Jun 28, 2008 5:55 PM CDT up 0 recs

Youngs record

Young has a reputation for finding a way to win in college, but that hasn’t translated to the NFL so far. He does make some plays by running the ball, but that does not skew his other statistics in the least. How many interceptions or incompletions he throws has nothing to do with when he runs it. Whether it is better to have a pure pocket passer or a running QB is a question for another debate, but it didn’t help Michael Vick much.

by ChiefDJ on Jun 28, 2008 6:17 PM CDT up 0 recs

And in the NFL.

Biggest fourth-quarter comeback against the giants doesn’t count? Also, as a defensive player, I know for a fact that a running quarterback will change the type of defense a team will play. Whether or not it affects his stats in a good way or a bad way is a different story, but it does affect his stats, without a doubt. As for being clutch in the NFL, what about the time he ran over 40 yards in OT to beat the texans in their own stadium (in his rookie year, when the titans were considered bad). Or what about the time when he drove the titans down the field against the baltimore ravens (as a rookie) only for rob bironas to miss a game winning 43 yard FG? (a win that would have put them into the playoffs making them the first team to ever do so after losing the first 5 games in a season). Or perhaps his 40 yard td run against the bills at the end of the half to seal the deal going into half time (the bills actually almost won this one, but we didn’t know that at the end of halftime…). As for the giants game, I’m not going to even get into that.

You can say that Vince Young has bad passing stats, and I would have to agree with you on that one. However, to say that his game-ending performance hasn't translated to the NFL is far from the truth. Also, it is without a doubt that a running quarterback will have skewed stats (uncomparable to a pocket qb) because of the defenses he faces for the following reasons;

1) QB Spy: You can bet that on every single play there is someone whos job is to watch vince young, and only vince. This means that there is one less player that a coach can put either into the secondary, or to blitz. It basically takes one player away from the defense, something coordinaters don’t exactly enjoy.

2) Blitzing: Because of Vince Youngs ability to run, defensive coordinaters are not able to call for a blitz as often as they can with a pocket quarterback just because of his ability to take off (see OT run against Houston). What does this result in? It means that there is more men in coverage, making it much more difficult to find not only mismatches, but the open man as well. This is made clear by quarterbacks like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady talking about how much they love the blitz, because all it means is that someone is going to be open.

3) a+b=c : In order to see tangible proof that already the statistics for running quarterbacks are quite different, not only in passing, but in the running game as well, is the rushing totals for teams like the Titans as well as the Falcons (During Michael Vick). Ever wonder why Mr. Fat himself, LenDale White, can still be a thousand yard rusher, as well as a thousand cheeseburger eater in the same year? Why does jerious norwood have a higher YPC than reggie bush (besides bush being somewhat of a bust)? Because when a team has to spend so much attention to a running quarterback, other mismatches are bound to happen, just like the ones we have seen with the Falcons and Titans running game. So passing the football doesn’t work? Just ask Herm! This is Mike Solari’s dream scenario, run the football.

So, in the end, Vince Youngs stats may not be oober-sexy like Peyon, but last time I checked he has won more games than our very own Bro-Bro the mo fo. But Brodies line sucked! We went 0-8 without LJ!! Our coordinater sucked! Well, as a ROOKIE, vince young almost became the first quarterback to take an 0-5 team and take them to the playoffs. Norm Chow, Youngs coordinater at the time, was recently fired before he took a job at UCLA. Dominant college coach, not so much in the NFL. His starting runningbacks rotated between Lendale McFatt, Travis “the Bong” Henry, and Chris Brown. As good as the Titans line is now, this wasn’t the case when Kerry Collins was the quarterback. Coincidence? I’ll leave that to the people to decide. Also, who was Vince Youngs top reciever? Couldn’t tell you, they were that bad. What about his TE? The best to ever play the game? No. It was Bo Scaife, Youngs teamate in texas who entered the draft a few years ealier.

As much as I love Brodie (which is a lot, believe me), you can not tell me vince has crappy stats without including how bad croyles stats are as well. Also, it is a fact that running quarterbacks passing stats (and any stat, for that matter) will be different than a pocket qb.

In science, the worst thing you can do is correlate data. This is when you are usually the most wrong about something, and that is what I am trying to point out. As nice as it is to have something to read during the offseason, all I am saying is that take this with a grain of salt.

by Ben S on Jun 29, 2008 11:21 AM CDT up 0 recs

Sorry

for that quote, I keep doing it and have no idea why.

by Ben S on Jun 29, 2008 11:22 AM CDT up 0 recs

Young

I’m not saying Vince Young will not turn into a good QB. He is only one of several recently drafted QBs whose stats I cited to show that ALL of them are having a rough time adjusting to life in the NFL.

The numbers are the numbers though. Vince Young brings other things to the table, but when you are talking about learning to read coverages, decision making in the passing game and accuracy, it makes absolutely no difference that he can run with the ball, the quoted stats accurately reflect his progress in those areas the same it does all the other QBs that may spend 100% of their time being a QB rather than Young spending 15% of his time being a RB. His “QB Skills” are still different than his “Runner skills”.

That may or may not have anything to do with his leadership or ability to win games, that is something we will only find out down the road. But when you are talking about QB skills, which is what these stats reflect, Young, Leinart, and the majority of young QBs in the league are all in about the same boat as far as their stats reflect their learning curve.

by ChiefDJ on Jun 29, 2008 3:00 PM CDT up 0 recs

Good point

Those are very good points except for Young almost taking the Titans to the playoffs. That would have been the extremely good defense that they had. If you recall there weren’t to many points put up by there offense. When is the last time a running quarterback won the superbowl. Can’t recall. Elway and Young don’t count as running quarterbacks. They were Quarterbacks who ran when they had to. Young is a running back who throws because he has to. That is great that he can make those plays with his legs. He has amazing speed and quickness which would help to make plays late in the fourth in his rookie season. His natural instinct tells him to run especially as a rookie. It is pretty easy to make those runs against a prevent defense if you have those atributes. Last year it caused him a few injuries taking away that part of his game. The boy can run but, that is about it.

by cmpotter on Jul 7, 2008 1:13 AM CDT up 0 recs

Supporting casts...

Of any of those quarterbacks Brodie has had the worst supporting cast:
1. Offensive line was NFL’s worst, which led to a lack of running attack and piss poor pass protection (alliteration not intended there)
2. Mike Solari was among the worst OC’s in the league
3. Really only 2 legit targets and one was a rookie Tony & Bowe

I am not going to say he is a star in the making but I’m also ot going to say he isn’t, but I do believe that this is the year he is going to have to show us something. I believe he will have a pretty good season and so will the Chiefs.

by akc on Jun 28, 2008 6:10 PM CDT 0 recs

Also

Brodie also got to start all his games with a rookie running back and and a third stringer who might make the practice squad this year.

by cmpotter on Jul 4, 2008 10:06 PM CDT up 0 recs

Not even 3rd stringer

Kolby Smith was practically the 4th stringer, Jackie battle was 6th.

Larry Johnson
Michael Bennett
Priest Holmes
Kolby Smith
Gilbert Harris – practice squad
Jackie Battle – practice squad

So for part of the time he had a rookie 3rd stringer and then two guys pulled off the practice squad. Kolby did well, but he’s not exactly the type of players teams shake in their boots about.

by ChiefDJ on Jul 4, 2008 10:27 PM CDT up 0 recs

I forgot about that

Yeah, how quickly it is forgotten that Bennett and Holmes were on the squad. With a healthy LJ and a coordinator that has actually done it for a living, there can’t be any excuses this year. He should have a supporting cast to be better. I just hope the fans aren’t expecting him to be great cause this team isn’t going to be a contender this year.

by cmpotter on Jul 5, 2008 10:01 AM CDT up 0 recs

We've got tape

“All this tells us is what we already know. We haven’t seen enough of a sample of Croyle to know whether he is the franchise guy we have been looking for or not. But likewise, we have not seen enough of him to know he’s not.”

People sometimes forget that Croyle was an outstanding quarterback in Tuscaloosa. Withstanding 36 sacks in 05, he still mustered 14 td, 4 int season. Now, does he translate into a franchise quarterback? We’re not sure. But the guy has won before.

by dorsey on Jun 28, 2008 11:39 PM CDT 0 recs

Yds/Pass Attempt 5.4

If you had asked me how Croyles’ yards per pass attempt compared to other QBs, I would have guessed the stats to be much worse based on the number of go-nowhere check-off passes that stick in my head from last year.

He’s got the arm to throw a long ball. Bowe’s got the will and ability to go get it. Whenever our line gels and Croyle gets another second, it could be fun. ...yeah, I know it will still be run first. Play action is coming, though, baby!

Thanks for the good work, DJ.

by sunny D on Jun 28, 2008 11:59 PM CDT 0 recs

Surprised by Cutler

Top QB Rating
Top Y/Pass
Top TD %
Top Completion %

Looks like he was a pretty good pick by Shannyham.

Good to see Croyle isn’t stinkin’ up the joint. I hope he breaks out this year.

by Ochophosphate on Jun 29, 2008 12:20 AM CDT 0 recs

You know Shanahan has helped him

Shanahan has a knack for picking QBs perfect for his scheme and is very good at developing them. I have always thought Cutler was a good prospect, but especially with someone who has a clue there to bring them along.

by ChiefDJ on Jun 29, 2008 8:35 AM CDT up 0 recs

Shannahan

Keep in mind he has really only develpoed one quarterback. How did that guy end up. Cutler is still developing and looks good but lets not give the rat all the credit. Elway was already great. They added the running game that he never had before. Then you had Brister who was a journeyman who never did great. Griese he developed but, he was a head case. Plummer was the player he was before shannahan got him. He just had more talent around him there than in Arizona. We will see with Cutler. So far he looks great. Hopefully Shannahan won’t ruin him the way he did Griese and Plummer. Both were talented but for what ever reason…...(Shannahan) they fell apart later in there careers. For Cutlers sake Denver fans better pray it is only a coincidence.

by cmpotter on Jul 7, 2008 3:36 PM CDT up 0 recs

Cutler is no surprise

Cutler is great. He has all the makings of an elite QB, but only time will tell. Compound those stats with the fact that he lost like 30lbs and had no energy for the latter parts of the 2007 season due to untreated diabetes. His starting center and guard were out to injury, and his left tackle failed to come back from injury (fell off a cliff production wise). His #1 receiver and running back were largely ineffective for most of the season due to injury, although Denver’s own rookie (undrafted) RB did a pretty good job filling in for Travis Henry.

Consider that all those issues have been addressed in the reloading season, and you’ve got the makings of a breakout year for Cutler. For the first time since Elway retired, we Bronco fans aren’t whining about our QB.

by unkown on Jul 6, 2008 12:39 PM CDT up 0 recs

I Tend To Be Skeptical About Croyle's Chances

If you check his numbers, his completion percentages aren’t that far off from what he did in college. He was interception-prone until his senior year (he didn’t toss any his junior year, but he only played in a couple of games before going out for the season). There’s still a chance he could be good…but this is probably the make-or-break year, though and if he doesn’t make some dramatic improvements the Chiefs need to look at bringing in serious competition next season.

Out of the others you named, I’m really only high on Cutler’s and Leinart’s chances to be excellent QBs down the road. Not so much on Vince Young because of his tendency to make turnovers. I think Clemens, Campbell, and Smith will be looking for new jobs in a season or two. I suspect that Tavaris Jackson’s got a pretty good chance of being replaced by a rookie this year if he doesn’t dramatically improve his game.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Jun 29, 2008 5:48 PM CDT 0 recs

Disagree about Campbell

I think he’s almost cemented himself as the definitive QBOTF on that team. He has steadily improved.

by primetime 07 on Jun 29, 2008 9:03 PM CDT up 0 recs

You May Be Right

He got his completion percentage up quite a bit, and he was about 1:1 for TD/INT, which is understandable for a 2nd year QB. I’m not quite as leery about him as I am about Vince Young. This will be a make-or-break year for Campbell, though.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Jun 30, 2008 9:51 AM CDT up 0 recs

You can't judge Croyle

without at least a slightly below average line in front of him. You can’t set up and throw passes when you’re running for your life. Peyton Manning wouldn’t have lasted the entire season with that collection of stiffs in front of him.

I’m thinking about the fifth game of the season it will start to click.

by stram#1 on Jun 29, 2008 8:35 PM CDT 0 recs

Does anybody see

the correlation between a sack prcentage and a QB rating. With that said, let’s see what he can do on his feet, looks hopeful. Another note is that Damon Huard may not be flashy ans a long-term QB but we should tip our hat to him for his above average play in those particular circumstances. As far as Vince Young’s attention here, A) Running QB’s are only effective in the big picture if they run to pass, ie: Steve Young and McNabb vs. Michael Vick. QBs like Trent Green and Brett Favre, who don’t run alot, have success when they do because they are thinking pass the entire way. This can lead to a big play and anyone who has watched football for any length of time knows why. Vince Young will be a great QB if he learns to “run-to-throw.” B) If there is less coverage in the secondary shouldn’t his passing numbers be better given the QB spy cenario. In conclusion both Croyle and young “should” be goodto great QBs Croyle with a liitle help up front, Young with a little development and experience.

by fishhooks_chief on Jul 3, 2008 1:28 PM CDT 0 recs