Why the Next Four Games Determine The Next Four Years
by schraggyj on Dec 5, 2008 7:07 AM CST
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PrintFrom the FanPosts. Nice work. Bumped up the time to this morning too. Make sure you keep up with the barrage of info we're posting in the FanShot section. -Chris
I am not talking about draft positions. This team has enough holes that if the best OL is taken the Chiefs are still better with the best LB on the board or vice versa. I am talking about Herm's comments to CBS Sportsline when he said:
"The question now," said Edwards, "is how will he continue to play and do we want to change the offense? I have to talk to (offensive coordinator) Chan Gailey, but right now I'm thinking we would.
"We changed everything to build the offense around him. It's like we're operating with a three-page notebook, adding a little with each week. Now the question is: Do we stay with this? Because it means you would have to do some things differently, like look at a little different offensive linemen."
Herm stated earlier that they plan on opening up the offense a little bit for the next four games of the season. And I think this may be more than just a coach talking. I expect to see Thigpen make more pass attempts even if we are ahead in a game. I say between 30 and 35 attempts a game. And if Thigpen succeeds, then I would assume that with next years draft we are looking at building an offense AND defense around Bones' play and the spread offense.
Herm mentioned specifically different lineman. More athletic lineman would likely be in play. We would need a good slot receiver--maybe several. I wouldn't even be surprised if we took a high profile TE like the kid out of Missouri or Okla. State. Defense's are sometimes built around offensives. High scoring pass happy offensives usually need a defense that is centered around speed with a solid secondary because high scoring offensives force the other team to throw around the ball. Would need a pass rush too. Regardless, I think a case can be made that if the Chiefs decided to build around Thigpen and the "spread offense," the team will be modified around that goal.
Drafting around Thigpen and the spread becomes a noted risk. If Thigpen fails, then perhaps the offense and team fails around him. And if Thigpen experiment doesn't work, then Edwards is likely definitely gone and it will be a new head coach with probably a new system. It has taken the KC Chiefs three years already to move on from Vermeil's players and schemes to Edwards' scheme, and at 2-10 we can't say the move has been successful. Granted, this team is young and could arguably adapt to any sytem of play. Additionally, I believe that a good coach can get the most out of any his players regardless of what scheme they were drafted for. But good coaches in this league come with "huge" egos and ways to win--and that way is usually their scheme. If we form this team around Thigpen and the spread and it fails, the Chiefs may be rebuilding again.
All that said, I say we do it. If Webster's had a Kansas City Dictionary, then Hope would be defined as "the spread offense--see Tyler Thigpen." He may not be a number 1, but there are plenty of excellent college QB's that could possibly be in the future thus reducing some of the risk of adopting a "spread offense." This post is long enough, I'll shut up.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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If Thigpen fails, then perhaps the offense and team fails around him.
The good thing about the spread offense is that it’s tailored around Thigpen’s talents. I don’t think he can fall far in that offense.
Good post
Drafting around Thigpen and the spread becomes a noted risk. If Thigpen fails, then perhaps the offense and team fails around him.
I think this is definitely a risk, but everything we do in sports is a risk and it all has a certain probability of failure. I feel like there is two very valid points about the spread to consider outside of Thigpen’s play which has certainly been better than expected:
1. How could you argue the fact that the only offensive success we have enjoyed this year has come from the spread offense? Our offensive point production was non-existent prior to this offensive scheme and it definitely plays to the strengths of our players.
2. What are the chances that the spread offense can enjoy sustained success in the NFL? It definitely brings back memories of the Run ‘N Shoot and it may possibly be just a flash in the pan scheme? We are not sure yet if it can be a Championship caliber offense (’07 Patriots “Spread” didn’t get it done). I think that arguments for it’s success include the incoming college players familiarity and the high scoring that the NFL League office is highly in favor of. I also like the fact that we are on the cutting edge so to speak of using this offense and not a lot of other teams are running it to the extent that we are. But I think all Chiefs fans have learned that just because you score 30 points a game ,it doesn’t matter if the team you are playing is always scoring 31.
It will be interesting to see which way the Chiefs go. But do they really have any other choice?
Good Stuff
I really don’t see how Herm could NOT draft around ’bones, here is why:
1. Herm has been here for 3 years now and hasn’t shown any real progress in the W-L columns (which is pretty important) he doesn’t have time to draft a QB in ‘09 and develop him into a franchise guy. By the time he does we’ll have another 7-10 loss season, if not 2, and Herm could probably be sent packing before the new QB is a viable option
2. Bones has the “it” factor, i see a similarity to Romo, except he has a better supporting cast of players/coaches/hot girlfriends to help him grow, and according to the Star he’s a quick study as well with TG. I think we have found a diamond in the rough.
i'm all for it
but does anybody else find it ironic that Herm Ewards-known for his conservative coaching is the one making plans to integrate the spread offense into the nfl?
I am worried about being an exclusive spread offense.
He needs to be able to take snaps from under center and it not be an obvious run. I think so far he is playing well but, The spread is a gimmick and it also makes it hard to run the ball affectively. I see Bones as more of a Garcia type player than say a Romo.
Indecision is the key to flexibility
The good thing is
that if we do decide to do this, then whichever QB we draft in the mid-rounds (assuming Thigpen finishes the season strong enough to indicate he’s our starter next year) could be a guy who currently runs the spread in college…
Wouldn't it be cool if the Chiefs
were the team that finally made the spread a legit Pro offense (regardless of whether it follows the short-lived path of the Run&Gun or the long-lived one of the West Coast)?
YES!
This is exactly what Holthus thinks is going to happen. Rather than training a guy 2-3 years before he can play in a system, using the spread as one formation among many will allow the QB needy to put their young players on the field. And as we have seen this year, you can always revert back to the traditional I formation when needed, or begin to mix a traditional offense with the spread.
Right now, we don’t run a pure spread, we mix it with the I and the pistol formation. I like those changes. And we can get Chase Daniels or Colt McCoy or some other mid-to-late round draft pick to run it.
In my opinion, it is no different than Denver’s zone blocking scheme (other than being legal). They can get all of this mid-grade, small back talent to really produce in their system, no matter how many injuries that they have.
QB
I don’t see the big risk to adopting a type of “spread” offense which Thigpen is comfortable working in. If it fails, there are a number of good college qbs that are very comfortable in a spread offense. Half of the Big 12 teams run the spread.
i agree
i think the spread is going to gain in popularity and with all the talent in college ball running the spread why not do it in the NFL.
I think the best point that you made was that you MUST adapt your defense as well. I also believe that the defense will get better at defending the pass, since thats the look they will constantly see in practice imo.
"stuck in Dallas"
Absolutely
I love watching Thiggy run the spread, but even if he fails, I think that I’ve seen better (in college). +1.
-cw
"If there’s a god he’s laughing at us and our football team." - Ben Folds
I view
the spread as training wheels for Thigpen. Once he gains confidence I think he will be able to work in any system.
Question
Did the Herm and the Hermettes draft this past year to build around Brodie? Reason I ask is this: If an offense is tailored around one specific quarterback, that can only operate one specific way, what happens if you cant find two backup QB’s with his same abilities, if and when he goes down? Wouldn’t you find an offensive scheme that works well for what you have an build upon it? I think Tom Brady is a very good QB, but Cassell aint no Brady – but he is for the most part getting the job done.
I see this as an opening for Herm to draft mostly offense this year and screw the defense and the fans.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Cassel's No Brady
But he’s been pretty damned good this season. Two 400 yard games in a row is nothing to sneeze at, and his other passing stats have been fairly impressive. At this point I’d consider him a borderline top 10 QB.
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
Correction
Top 15. He’s in the upper half of the league.
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
My point being
are we going to build an entire offense around just one person? NE was able to build a very good offense with very good people and apparently very good backups.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
On the offensive side of the ball in NE
They used a lot of free agency. The drafted mostly defense.
Indecision is the key to flexibility
I dont care how we find the players myself
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Me either
I can pretty much guarentee the Chiefs don’t ignore free agency this year though after we did last year and lost so many of our players to injury. Free agency can be a great boost for this team if we utilize it with brains. Carl can be smart and I think he will this offseason.
P.S. noticing a lot of new people posting…Good to have you!
I just hope they don't go for mid-level players in free agency
We always seem to do that and it always bites us in the ass.
Indecision is the key to flexibility
Addressed via draft
Starting with a new system might make it hard to find two backup QBs that can operate in that system. The good news for us? We’re blowing up our QB rotation after this season. Huard will be gone and Brodie may very well get cut. We may keep Brodie as our 3rd stringer, but we will be free to pick a “system” QB in the mid rounds of the draft (Chase Daniel anyone? or any QB to ever play at Texas Tech). So our number 2 will be comfortable with that system, and since teams shy away from “system” QBs, we likely could sign another spread QB for our practice squad (since we don’t want Brodie to be our only emergency backup).
you dont need more athletic OLine men to run the spread!
Thats why they call it the spread! teams use the spread, because they have weak linemen! I know this , because ive been an offensive coordinater for over 8 years now. The spread offense takes the linebackers and moves them out of the box. This in return puts the olinemen in a man to man situation and removes the most blitzs out of the scheme blocking! its right there on the tv screen! You ACTUALLY could use more powerful blockers to try and get pancake blocks, on run plays!
HEY! I cry foul!
I thought intelligent coaches would not be allowed anywhere near anything having to do with the Chiefs?
:)
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
Herm says he is going
to “open up” the offense for the last four games? Maybe Herm isn’t as big of a dumb*ss as I thought! These last four games are extremely important for a number of reasons, not the least of which is momentum and pride carried over to next season. I personally think Mr. Thigpen can be our quarterback of the future. This is his rookie year for crying out loud! He came out and fell flat on his face his first game, and THEN RECOVERED to get better each week. He is growing and learning. Why not build an offense around Thigpen? He took a first class *ss whuppin’ in his first game and has improved and/or learned in every game since. He HAS that intangible “something” an NFL quarterback needs. Besides, if Herm came out of his shell in order to play Thigpen, I am all for it. Lets see what happens these last four games. GO, CHIEFS!
Totally awesome random thought...
So, the “Bones” nickname gave me a total random laugh. It seems to be that Tyler Thigpen’s picture of him feigning corpse copulation has some really good mileage this week.
“The picture is a metaphor: Tyler Thigpen represents Tyler Thigpen, and the skeleton represents the Raiders’ defense.”
or perhaps:
“Al Davis assumes the submissive position for our boy Tyler Thigpen last week.”
Anyway, it made me laugh…
One comment about our "spread" offense
This is actually the reason i decided to start posting on this website, i’ve been a reader for quite some time. I have a few ’bones to pick…(pun intended) with the use of the word Spread as it pertains to describing the new wrinkles implemented by the Chiefs offense.
As a college football player i have faced a Spread offense, and the Chiefs are not running a Spread. The true spread is what Texas Tech, Mizzou and Florida run. These offenses are VASTLY different from what Chan is implementing for the Chiefs.
All Chan has really done is place ’bones in the gun (both pistol and full) to give him the ability to make quick reads AND most importantly make him more comfortable. The pistol running plays we have been using are essentially the same as they were in the Pro I we used to run with “broken bones” Croyle. The chiefs are doing very little of wha teams like Florida do, they use many short under routes and WR screens as a running game (similar to the west coast offense of yesteryear). The OL does not block like the college spread, which uses a lot of screening and fast lineman to get to the second level in addition to the use of influence blocking. The Chiefs are running a simplified version of their previous offense with wrinkles like not huddling and a permanent gun formation for ’Bones. I realize that we may just be throwing the word around to describe it but i think it is a mistake to really generalize the Chiefs O as a spread. (i will concede to the fact that we used spread elements, including blocking schemes in our 94 yard drive vs. Raiders)
"Spread" Is Like "West Coast"
It’s a very basic description used for the sake of brevity to give a frame of reference. Not every “West Coast” offense is identical to Bill Walsh’s offense, but most of the time you have an idea of what the person using the term is talking about. You’re right that the Chiefs’ offense is not a college spread offense…but it has enough similarities that it’s not entirely misleading. And for more casual fans who want to get in on the discussion it’s probably a useful term to use since it avoids complex explanations that they may not feel comfortable requesting information on.
If there’s a better term to use than “spread” I’m open to that.
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
As a Bronco fan--watching from the outside--you guys seem a lot closer to playoffs than you think.
I haven’t rooted for your team since the creative Stramm took out the Vikings—further raising the AFL banner—but I still follow your team and HATE the AFC West being the ‘whatevers’ of the NFL.
You seem to be playing everyone tough—that is a sign you are right at the door. I hope your team doesn’t start thinking coaching change—I think Edwards is taking you in the right direction—and I hate to see ‘Al Davis Syndrom’ infect any team. Not only that, from what I’ve read, 2009 is going to be a very rich draft—and with your current situation you may end up not only good—but powerful next year.
Anyway, I guess we’ll see where both our teams are heading this weekend.
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
"Closer To The Playoffs" Isn't An Accomplishment We Aspire To
Winning a championship is. And Carl Peterson hasn’t ever built a Super Bowl caliber team in 19 years. Building a team good enough to squeak into the playoffs in a bad division so they can get bounced in the first round is about the most we can probably hope from from King Carl, which is why many of us want him gone.
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
Well--that being said. I hope you the best next year and the worst this Sunday
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
Ditto :)
The Chiefs should win 5 to 6 games this year and no less than 4 for this season to be considered progress in any way. If he can't win at least 9 games next season, Herm's a joke.
next year we will know a whole lot more about both our teams
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
Good Man
Hey, thanks for the positive post. I’m glad to see you don’t get all caught up in the rivalry hype. Thanks for the objectivity of an outsider’s viewpoint, it’s greatly appreciated and needed (we’ve felt largely ignored or laughed at all year).Cheers to you pal!
Chiefs, this has been the most Jeckyl and Hy....well you know....experience I've ever been through also.
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
No. Like losing to the faiders at home--never again--Dr Jeckyl ends here...
The best defense is a good defense!
And last week's young players. Yes!
Well unlikely but, I hope we sweep you all.
I would say good luck but we need it. :)
Indecision is the key to flexibility
Amen to that
I can’t wait to see the Broncos go down this Sunday to the young Chiefs to break our consecutive loss issues at Invesco and get us on track with a winning spirit.
On the other hand I wish the Broncos full success the rest of the season and on into the playoffs. Better the Broncos than the Chargers. If it can’t be us there, then I will root for our Division all the way. It is sad that the once most dominant Division in the NFL is in such a disarray. Next year my friends, next year!
Not to surprised with the Chargers this year
Norv has tendency to under achieve as a head coach. I hope we pull the upset today that would really boost the young players confidence.
Indecision is the key to flexibility
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