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Larry Johnson Is Tradeable!!!

From the FanPosts   -Primetime

In a bit of good news for Chiefs fans, it turns out that our amateur speculation on the cap hit we'd take for getting rid of Larry Johnson was a bit off and that trading away Larry Johnson is really no different than keeping him, from a financial perspective.

Per Adam Schefter:

For Kansas City to trade Johnson, it would cost the Chiefs $8.8 million against their salary cap next season. For the Chiefs to keep Johnson, it would cost Kansas City $8.2 million against it salary cap next season.

So that's a $600,000 difference between keeping him and dumping him.  Question is, would that extra $600,000 be worth dumping Larry Johnson's baggage and his (occasional) production?  To my mind the answer would be yes.  Also, there's the question of what we could get in return for him.

Whoever is the new general manager for the Chiefs will have to weigh whether it is worth auctioning off Johnson to the highest bidder, hoping to get back, at best, a second-round pick and more likely a third-round pick and possibly some other late-round compensation.

Now before Chiefs fans get incensed that Johnson will bring back only a second-round pick — if he can even get that, as some league executives are not convinced — consider this:

Running backs don’t carry a tremendous value around the league. The upcoming draft is heavy in them again. Teams can draft running backs in later rounds — see Matt Forte, Steve Slaton, Peyton Hillis — and still get contributors. So Johnson will be worth maybe a second-round pick, probably a third, or possibly a third and a fifth.

So the question then changes to, would it be worth the extra $600,000 cap hit to us to dump Larry Johnson's baggage and (occasional) production if we're also able to get a first day draft pick for him?  In that case my answer would change to a resounding "Hell Yeah!!!"  Johnson will turn 29 next season, getting close to the end of the road as a running back.  Regardless of what you think the reasons might be (offensive line, scheme, coaching, motivation) it is undeniable that he has not produced as much or as consistently as he did before his 400+ carry season of 2006.

Add into that the off-field issues, the expendability of running backs in the NFL and the chance of getting a solid starter out of the deal and I think that it's well worth the $600,000 to send Larry Johnson packing so he can become someone else's headache during the declining years of his career...even if we're only able to get a second-day draft pick out of the deal.

And for those who wonder how an underachieving, malcontent running back could merit a first day draft pick in trade, Schefter explains:

While Johnson’s contract is an albatross for the Chiefs, it is a blessing for other teams. Any team that trades for Johnson does not have to pay him any guaranteed money — other than the $5.5 million base salary that he is scheduled to make next season. In 2010, Johnson is scheduled to make another $7 million in base salary.

But if there’s a team out there that wants to upgrade its running backs, it has to ask whether it is better to trade for Johnson or sign a free agent such as New York’s Brandon Jacobs to a deal that is likely to include somewhere around $18 million in guaranteed money.

So even if trading for Johnson doesn't work out, other teams would still be able to cut ties with him without suffering a cap penalty...a low-risk, potentially high-payoff deal if ever there was one for the team that acquires him.  And a much better payoff for the Chiefs than I suspect we'd get if we kept Johnson around.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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Great points

and I bet a team looking to acquire him will come up with the same assumptions. I just don’t see why anyone would pay a 2nd rounder for him.

by dkugler838 on Dec 30, 2008 12:52 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I Updated The Bottom A Bit

He would be attractive to other teams because there’d be no risk for them associated with his contract. If he doesn’t pan out they can cut him and not take a cap hit.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 12:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Good call on the Jacobs point

I think since Johnson didn’t start his entire career he is a ‘young’ 29 yr old back. Let’s say you add on an additional year aged from carrying the ball 1.5 million times in 2006, you’d still have to take off some time due to his injury last year. Market wise I’d say he’s still in his prime. Jacobs has also had a ton of injury issues.

by dkugler838 on Dec 30, 2008 2:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There Aren't Really "Young" Running Backs

The age 31 dropoff is about as universal a rule as you’re going to find, regardless of whether the player was used sparingly early in his career. The standard stats for a primary back should be about 270 carries with 4 yards per carry…that’s what you’ll generally see from the stars in an average year. The only one I could find who hit that standard after age 31 was Walter Payton (who did it at 32 then was out of the league the next year).

You can do things to bring star running backs’ careers to an earlier end…you can’t do much to prolong a star RB’s high level of production. Once they hit 31 they’re almost always going to decline quickly.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Clarification

When I say, “once they hit 31” I mean that they’ll drop off fast after the age 31 season. Aside from Payton you just don’t see running backs who pull 250-270 carries with four yards per carry. They either become complementary backs or their yards per carry drop below the 4.0 range (which should be the standard expectation from any starting running back).

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally agree

and maybe ‘young’ was not the right world to use. All I know is that Larry has shown that with a competent o-line and playcalling that he’ll average over 4.3 yds per carry. He may never be the 300 carry back again, but the committee system is the way to go nowadays anyway.

Not really sure what we’re debating, but I am saying that a case can be made for Larry as the primary back for 2-3 more years – the size of most championship windows outside of the year in year out contenders.

by dkugler838 on Dec 30, 2008 2:29 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's A Valid Point About His Window

3 years is probably going to be the best case scenario. I just suspect that it may be smaller due to that season of overuse, attitude problems, and just standard injuries.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 2:33 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

or Emmitt Smith

his YPC dropped below 4.0, but he still had high carries
Age – Carries – YPC
 31 – 294 – 4.1
 32 – 261 – 3.9
 33 – 254 – 3.8
 34 – 90 – 2.8 (injured most of the year)
 35 – 267 – 3.5

I think he falls under the category of – “Freaky Deaky” – kinda like Jerry Rice.

by Ochophosphate on Dec 30, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's What I'm Saying

You’ll see running backs after age 31 get a high number of carries. But 4 ypc is basically the standard of competence for a good running back and you’ll pretty much never see any of those guys hit that while getting a full complement of carries (250+). They either get their carries cut or their production drops off. And when you’re paying a RB what Larry Johnson gets paid you need them to get both the full complement of carries and produce.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Because $600,000 of $116,000,000

is 0.5%, this is a no-brainer.

You think it's coincidence that I bleed red?

by Mully on Dec 30, 2008 12:55 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Ray Farmer

can sign two Practice squad guys with that extra money. The way we went through them this year, he would appreciate the help.
Seriously, I’d like just a second, but even a 3rd and 6th would be great.

We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.

"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Dec 30, 2008 1:03 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yup

Adios Larry…hopefully.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 1:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'd take just about any draft picks for him

This is going to be a deep draft

I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am.

by KCking on Dec 30, 2008 2:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So Who is going to be in the market

For a disgruntled diaper wearing running back?

Indecision is the key to flexibility

by cmpotter on Dec 30, 2008 1:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Cleveland

Also Denver, Houston, Seattle, and Arizona.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 1:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Arizona Would Probably Be The Most Interested

They’ve got a stellar offense and a crap running game. Hightower’s bubble popped and Edgerrin James is at the end. Larry Johnson would probably be a good fit there.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 1:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe they work a sign and trade for LJ and a late pick

Boldin or Dansby……Damn it a I woke up. That was a good dream though. :)

Indecision is the key to flexibility

by cmpotter on Dec 30, 2008 1:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Boldin

:(

You think it's coincidence that I bleed red?

by Mully on Dec 30, 2008 1:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You Know

Steve Breaston really emerged this year as a talented receiver…I could maybe see them wanting to unload Boldin. But I think it would take more than Larry Johnson to get that done and it’s probably not worth it. Boldin’s 28 and that’s getting close to the end for WRs as well.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

what about a heads up trade for Dansby?

We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.

"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Dec 30, 2008 1:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That would be the best deal for the Chiefs side.

It would be another sign and trade tupe deal.

Indecision is the key to flexibility

by cmpotter on Dec 30, 2008 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

But then

Paying $8.2 million for a starter and paying $8.8 million for someone that’s not on your team isn’t the same thing. Factor in the money that needs to be paid to his replacement.

But, this is still good news. After this season his cap hit drops…I’m liking this. He’s gone.

by Joel Thorman on Dec 30, 2008 1:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Running Backs Are Still The Most Replaceable Position

We can find one of those cheap. Or do a running-back-by-committee until we can find a good one. And Larry Johnson’s never going to have more trade value in the future than he does now.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 1:34 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Plus

it’s not like we don’t have a wee bit of cap space to work with.

Ridiculous Upside: All the "Almost NBA" info you can handle!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 30, 2008 1:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And An $8.8 Million Cap Hit

Is a lot more manageable than $15 million. :)

One of these days I’m going to have to find all the rules on how the cap is managed. Frigging voodoo economics it is. :)

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

LJ

If somebody gave a 3rd I would take that deal and run. with his baggae I would be pleased with the patriots 4th, you know that’s where he will go.

by FrankPitts on Dec 30, 2008 2:37 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

still tough

If we give LJ up, we’ll be paying 8.8 mil for a player that isn’t here and flat hasn’t earned it and he’ll be getting paid by another team as well! Or we could make him stay and get some decent output from him for our damn money. The idea of shipping him off with a shit load of money in his pocket makes me more sick than keeping him.

by ChiefsDude on Dec 30, 2008 3:27 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

not to say

I don’t hate the guy, but letting him dictate the way things are gonna go when he’s under contract seems kinda lame. But if he’s as poisonous to team morale as a T.O., then I say don’t hesitate to be done with him. I guess that’s everyone’s opinion?

by ChiefsDude on Dec 30, 2008 3:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Only For One Year

And then we’ll get even less for him if we trade him the next year.

The idea of shipping him off with a shit load of money in his pocket makes me more sick than keeping him.

Keeping him around just to punish him in some way isn’t going to help the Chiefs. It’ll just compound the problems we have. It was a stupid contract to sign him to, but that doesn’t make keeping an unhappy malcontent around any better of an idea.

If it makes you feel any better, Larry Johnson strikes me as one of those morons who’ll piss away all of his money a few years after his career is over. I’ve always found that people who go through life thinking that the rules don’t apply to them are rarely smart enough to avoid the consequences of breaking those rules for too long…eventually everyone gets what’s coming to them.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 3:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed, Karma is a B****

But remember, we shopped him at the beginning of the season, we shopped him in the middle of the season, and no one was interested. Now here we are almost a year later thinking that someone will jump all over him and want to give up a 2 or 3 (or a 3 and a 5 or whatever). I’ll believe it when I see it.

I’m not really for keeping the guy, but it doesn’t make much sense to me to pay a dude almost 9 million to go away. I’d rather pay him 8.2 million and bench him all year… then if we have a run of RB injuries at least we have him on the bench, ready to go. As bad as he was, he still averaged 4.5yds per carry…

Screw it, I’m tired of listening to him cry like a baby, first team to offer ANY draft pick lets move him!!!

by KCFanatic on Dec 30, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They Weren't Interested Because They Didn't Know How Serious His Foot Injury Was

Now that he’s shown he can still have big games his trade potential will be higher than last year.

Herm Edwards will not be the Chiefs' head coach next season.

by UCrawford on Dec 30, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

They were trying to trade him right before the deadline

at the same time they were “trying” to trade Tony with no takers, the foot injury thing was settled at that point.

by KCFanatic on Dec 30, 2008 4:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True
If it makes you feel any better, Larry Johnson strikes me as one of those morons who’ll piss away all of his money a few years after his career is over.

Yeah, that does make me feel better. And it’s true, the trade potential is higher now than it would be next year. We have a decent highlight reel to use this year, I’m sure. Ok, you sold me.

by ChiefsDude on Dec 30, 2008 3:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Time to go

I’ve stuck up for LJ a lot, but since he’s announced that he wants to go, I’m fine with trading him. That contract Peterson gave him sucks, but we need to move him and he needs to start over.

If we trade him to New England, he’ll probably get his act together and be good again. And the Patriots are too smart to give us much for him. Dallas seems like the destination that would be a good fit from my perspective. I doubt he’d come back to haunt us if he went to that asylum, and they’re screwed up enough to overpay for a big name. But maybe they learned their lesson, or maybe they don’t need a RB, even a “big name.” I’d prefer to see him go to the NFC, just in case he rebounded, but it doesn’t really matter that much I guess.

Teams hardly ever trade one player for another anymore, but is there any way to trade him for a young vet at a position of need?

Nothing going to happen until we get the new GM in place. I guess one of the first items on his plate will be to trade Johnson for as much as we can get for him. I hope it’s item #2, right after getting a new head coach.

by Offense of the 70s on Dec 30, 2008 4:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

We play Dallas next year at Arrowhead.

That would be fun.

You think it's coincidence that I bleed red?

by Mully on Dec 30, 2008 4:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

except Dallas has Marion Barber

and recently drafted Felix Jones… and Choice hasn’t been too shabby either.

by KCScuba on Jan 1, 2009 1:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If we can get a 3rd - 5th round pick for him then do it

Keeping him and benching him or even keeping him and playing him as a 1st and 2nd down back just doesn’t make sense. He wants out, he will be a cancer in the locker-room, he is the type of guy to prevent a team from having a great locker-room. Getting any type of extra draft pick is so important. All it takes is a 4th round pick to have the next Jared Allen. Obviously he is the exception but it is always possible.

Trade him and let’s only hope that it somehow could be 2nd rounder. My bet is on a 4th rounder.

Anyone got any history of what teams got for trading late-twenties backs on draft day?

by I need more Esteban on Dec 30, 2008 4:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Karma = LJ ends up on the same team Carl Peterson ends up as GM

We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.

"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Dec 30, 2008 5:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Let's not get too excited yet.

He still has the court of law to deal with, and the promised additional action by the league if convicted on any counts.

The possible suspension will guarantee we would get a low pick.

by DThomasReigns on Dec 30, 2008 6:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Also

If the new GM brings in a new staff and a new system, what if we work in Free Agency and the draft to be a balanced Play Action team? Say we grab a RT and RG in FA, draft a QB in Round 1 and Alex Mack in Round 2…now Larry may be the focus of the offense again for a couple more years (and maybe we draft a bruiser in the lower rounds to be his replacement)

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2008 7:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Restructure his contract

If he wants out badly enough, you restructure his contract so the cap hit is less and then you let him go. You explain that if he feels it’s in his best interest to leave, than he needs to work with us.
The other scenario is the clause in his contract for “good behavior” ie. the Vick clause. This brings the hit down to 4Mil. If found guilty or he pleads no contest, exercise the clause.

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

Thigpen WILL NOT be the Chiefs starting QB next year IMO. He can compete for the job and should be 2nd or 3rd string.

by THE_TRUTH on Dec 31, 2008 9:44 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

so if we excersise the Vick clause we only pay 4 mill but get no trade?

We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.

"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Dec 31, 2008 10:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe...If it was me....

…this is how i would do it (options):
1) Exercise the clause if time is available before the draft (but you need to wait for the verdict…that’s the catch, how long will it take? unless he decides to plead no contest and doesn’t go to court).
2) See who needs/wants him. Let’s say Arizona. Make a deal with Arizona for maybe a 3rd and 5th round draft pick as well as restructure his contract to minimize the cap hit. Present it to him like this and say:
 
“You want out, here are your options?”.
We restructure your contract for a 4Mil. cap hit. and trade you to Arizona.
If you think you’ll win in court than we’ll wait it out and you’ll get your 8 Mil and stay here.
If you lose in court, we’ll exercise the clause and you’ll still end up with 4 Mil…..your choice.

It’s a 4Mil. gamble on your part LJ.

Sign here and you are no longer a Chief or stick it out and hope that next year you can put up big numbers on this team. Then HOPE another team decides to sign you for a high salary. If you believe you can do much better somewhere else next year and don’t want to risk the same type of play-calling here (that’ll lessen your worth for signing down the road) I suggest you accept the trade.

One more thing….LJ fired his Agent this week. I think it’s probably because the agent pretty much gave him the truth about his options and LJ didn’t like it.

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

Thigpen WILL NOT be the Chiefs starting QB next year IMO. He can compete for the job and should be 2nd or 3rd string.

by THE_TRUTH on Dec 31, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought he fired him right after he returned to playing this year? (after the suspension)

We need a future defensive leader, his name is James Laurinaitis and he can be selected in round 1 of the upcoming Draft.

"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Dec 31, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I thought I heard it was earlier this week...but I could be wrong. I can't recall if I heard it on 610,810 or ESPN. It's all a blur this year from my head spinning after 2-14

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

Thigpen WILL NOT be the Chiefs starting QB next year IMO. He can compete for the job and should be 2nd or 3rd string.

by THE_TRUTH on Dec 31, 2008 11:43 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Larry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

See yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa…Larry I hope. Don’t need this kind of guy on our team. Chiefs have more class then a guy like him……bye bye….

by westernkansaschiefsfan on Dec 31, 2008 2:07 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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