The Emerging Tyler Thipgen
by Chris Thorman on Nov 6, 2008 5:06 PM CST
in 2008 Kansas City Chiefs Campaign
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After two fantastic performances in a row, Tyler Thigpen is obviously settling into his role as the leader on offense. Still, he's quick to credit everyone but himself for the team's recent improvement on offense. Here are a couple of snippets from his Q&A today.
On attributing the recent success on offense to himself:
It’s not me, it’s the team. It’s a team game. The offensive line is doing a wonderful job blocking, pass blocking, run blocking. Give them a lot of credit. Coach Gailey is doing a wonderful job play calling. The credit is not going to me; it’s going to the offense. The offense deserves the credit.
On the spread offense increasing in the NFL:
You’re asking the wrong guy. I did it my senior year. In college I did both kinds of systems. When you come into the NFL, where it’s usually just the under center and then third down you’re in the gun, it’s nice – the Shotgun – for a lot of quarterbacks. I enjoy being back there and I feel like I can see the defense a lot better.
On being in the huddle:
I feel like I have a lot more confidence in the huddle. When I call a protection, looking at the offensive line, when I call a Z receiver, I look at Tony when I call his certain play. That’s just knowing your offense and just being mature and having confidence that you know exactly what you’re calling. That’s come a long way since I first started.
Call me crazy, but in a little over a month, I've gone from not believing for one second Tyler Thigpen is an NFL quarterback to contemplating him at a starting role in 2009. Keep up the good work, Thigpen.
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Still keeping my fingers crossed with Thigpen
He’s far exceeded expectations the last couple games, but I still have this nagging fear that he’s been playing beyond his real ability. The good news is we have 8 more games and if he can continue to play at this level that should be more than enough proof.
They still should draft a QB fairly early regardless of what Thigpen does because we absolutely cannot go another season on the QB carousel like we did the last two years, but it would be a real lifesaver for the Chiefs to not have to just plan on giving away their 1st round pick on a QB even if there is a far superior player at another position of need there.
Agree on continuing to evaluate Thigpens performance game to game and
draft QB (Harrell or McCoy if he declares) when we pick in the 2nd round, we would be complete imbeciles if we passed on a QB for another position. If we’ve learned anything this year, its that we need another competent QB to keep the position lively. Otherwise we’ll be scrambling looking for another QB off the streets if the number one QB goes down to injury. If anything, that rookie QB can sit behind Thigpen, Quinn (Croyle) while he gets acclimated to the play in the NFL.
I would love to either draft a rush DE or MLB with our 1st round pick. We could use our 3rd rounder on O-line either guard or tackle. If we take a QB in rounds 4 to 5 we would be just shopping for a future QB, not a solid option for a team still looking for an identity. We need to make a definite statement on the future of the team by selecting a QB in the 2nd round. No more rolling the dice on this position.
Your dead on about the QB carousel, that was a total fiasco. We don’t need another one of those situations (QB’s dropping like flies) in 2009 without a viable option for the future. IF Thigpen does look like our future, great! But how about if he doesn’t? Back to Croyle or Gray? No thanks!
by aPacificChief on Nov 7, 2008 2:52 AM CST up reply actions
Well at least he can play two games in a row without getting hurt.
That is the biggest thing this year. Not getting hurt. It also seems like the team believes he can make plays and they look confident.
As simple as it sounds
That’s probably his biggest accomplishment this year in light of our other QBs.
Thigpen for starter
hehe, i’ve liked the guy since i seen him playing in the preseason. he was the only one in preseason that was able to move the ball. regardless of throwing a INT, he moved the ball. and now he’s becoming better, learning to read defenses better, gaining confidence within the team. he’s becoming a better qb. now is he a probowl qb, is he the next peyton manning. no, but i can say he’s equivalent to say philip rivers, givin time of course. looking at his mobility, the energy he gives to the team. the team seams to support him and seem to like him.. i think if we pick up another 1 or 2 offensive and defensive linemen by next season, we can be a legit playoff contender.
Yep
If Thigpen plays well the last 8 games it would be a life-saver because we could consider waiting until the later rounds to draft a QB. If we can hold on ‘till round 5 for our QB we will be in good shape. But either way we need the depth. We have Gray, who can compete for the 1st or 2nd team job, but after that we a limited. We know Brody can’t take the pounding of the NFL and Huard will be gone. So, unless Martin develops quickly, we will need a third QB who can compete for the spot.
Whoa fanboy
“Fantastic” is a harsh overstatement. Thigpen has gone from being someone who shouldn’t even be in the NFL on a practice squad to a QB whose earned his roster spot in 8 weeks. Like cmopotter said his biggest attribute is staying healthy behind our leaky offensive line and Thigpen was just being a good solider by giving credit to them. It seems to be Herm’s really took his hand off the playbook at the start of the games and let Gailey do his thing, but when it gets time to manage the game he comes in and fouls it up. I contribute our offensive success to Gailey moreso than Thigpen, he’s just played consistently for 2 games which is what you should expect from any QB who starts in the NFL
If he keeps up this level and commits no turnovers he definitely deserves a roster spot next year. I would like to see an open QB competition though and de facto giving anybody the job is stupid unless they’re Pro Bowl talent
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 6, 2008 7:19 PM CST reply actions
The ability to do an average job
behind a below average o-line IS fantastic.
I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am.
There are countless QB's who played consistently behind shitty lines
that will never be remembered in history as “fantastic” QB’s.
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 6, 2008 10:43 PM CST up reply actions
I think
Fantastic is the right word when you consider where he was just 3 weeks earlier with the ATL game.
I still
haven’t seen any evidence that Herm did “have his hand on the playbook” other than what Herm haters keep on throwing out “Our offense is awful therefore Herm’s calling the plays.” Now that our offense is looking somewhat better they all say “Our offense looks decent, Herm must have stopped calling the plays”
That’s just real faulty logic my friends
I strive to be the person my dog thinks I am.
Agreed
I remember Herm mentioned that the team would have problems until they gel. Well, they are finally starting to gel as a unit, now that we have our starting QB in there consistantly. I’m starting to get that excited feeling back.
I don’t agree on drafting a QB just to draft one. We still haven’e even seen if Gray can be a competitor or a good backup. We have a rookie in Martin that we haven’t had a chance to see. Brodie will be back next year and with a stronger line, who knows what he can be? Why waste a pick on another rookie when we have QBs that are real possibilities.
We need to spend all of our picks on the depth to the O-Line and linebacker units. I say let’s be patient and develop the QBs we already have.
Just because Martin's never played before
doesn’t make him a rookie. He was the same class Croyle came from but he’s failed to crack a lineup anywhere because of his abilities(or lack thereof). Green Bay has a history for evaluating and drafting good QB’s and if they let him go & Tennessee let him go(when they were in need of QB’s) than that’s not a good sign. I’m fine with giving Croyle a 1 year contract but he’d have to earn the starting job like anybody else. If he can’t show us anything in his 4th year then we’re waiting too long. If Thigpen continues to perform at this level he deserves a spot next year. And I feel like Gray deserves his time too because he has good attributes, but there’s no question we need to draft another QB. The FA pool is only so big and drafts provide long-term answers to positional problems. I agree we shouldn’t draft QB’s just to fill a depth chart, but if 1st day talent remains on the board when we’re drafting its a no brainer. We carried 4 QB’s this season, no reason we can’t next either. Providing that be the case Martin should be the first to go
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 6, 2008 10:41 PM CST up reply actions
I have no factual evidence to support my theory
But its undeniable our style of football the last two weeks is unorthodox compared to our traditional Herm ball. This could have very well been some of the playbook they had cooked up originally for Croyle, but it seems to me that after Brodie & Damon officially went down for the season they just let Gailey loose to see what tricks he has up his sleeve. Or perhaps in Chan’s first season he’s just been watching attentively and evaluating our offenses strengths & weakness before implementing a system and what we’ve seen the last 2 sunday’s is that implementation. They seem to be playing to Thigpen’s strengths and this adaptation I just can’t see being any work of Herm’s as he’s shown no history of it. I’ll give credit to Herm where credit is due, and as for the play calling I don’t know who does what but I’d venture to state what we saw in the first half against Tampa was Gailey’s creation and in the second half was Herm’s.
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 6, 2008 10:30 PM CST up reply actions
Thigpen has had more playing time than any of the other QBs
He’s started and completed three or the eight games and had significant playing time two others.
You can’t open up an offense when your guys are still getting used to being in there. Had Croyle been able to stay healthy longer I think the offense would have looked completely different all season.
People have a preconceived notion of how Herm plays and don’t think theres any variation to that. But I remember seeing tons of highlight reels on ESPN of Pennington to Laverneus Coles when Herm was the coach there. His overall philosophy is conservative and he believes you won’t be succesful if you don’t run the ball which is common knowledge in the NFL.
However this absolutely ludicrous notion that Herm NEVER wants to throw down the field is completely unrealistic. We haven’t seen it in KC because look what we had to work with. Trent Green gets knocked out the first game and then you have a career backup that hadn’t even thrown a pass in the NFL for 3 years. Then you had Croyle just breaking into the NFL unable to stay healthy and get some momentum going.
If you’re objective about it, its not difficult to see that they have been on the QB carousel the entire time Herms been here and there hasn’t been the possibility for the coaches to get comfortable enough with a guy that has the ability to throw down field.
You can argue all day that its Herms own fault for picking those guys that either had the guts to throw but not the talent (Huard) or the talent to throw but the inability to stay healthy or the experience to pull it off (Croyle) but it doesn’t change the fact that until recently when Thigpen has gotten significant time for the coaches and players to get used to him, Herm has never really had a that was dynamic enough to pull off the more exciting plays the fans crave.
Herm's influence on the offense
This may be the epitome of lazy blogging, but Jay A (from the Gretz blog) summed up my thoughts about Herm’s offensive influence pretty well…
November 6, 2008 – Jay A. says:
When Herm hired Solari, he responded to a question about whether Solari would have freedom to call the plays he wants, Herm responded (roughly), "He’ll call in the plays, but he knows what I expect." …[Herm] sets the overall scheme of the gameplan, he lets the OC know what he wants called in what situations. So basically we had someone guessing what Herm would want, which is almost as bad as Herm calling them himself. The question is, did Chan start ignoring him, or did Herm actually give up?
Herm would talk about low-scoring games as if they were the ultimate goal in the first year. I realize he was trying to adjust expectations both in the locker room and in the stands for a different style of play and loss of tremendous offensive lineman. And it was probably a good mindset for the defense. Trouble was, he forgot that the Chiefs’ offense and it’s coaches were listening. You just can’t tell an offense to slow down. The result is that you go backwards.
I think Herm has finally learned his lesson and wants an excellent offense — one that scores points! Duh! At least that’s the take I get from press conference answers. Since Chan has had some success with trick plays, that gives him even more confidence to stretch the boundaries of Herm’s original pound-it-out hope. And Chan can stand up against Herm more than Mike Solari was in a position to do.
I think Chan may be the man; and Herm might be piecing together the complete picture of what being a head coach entails — it’s more than getting to move to your pet area of the team practice and being able to jump in with a few criticism to show the boys at DB you still got it. It’s about getting the most from every coach and player and putting them in a scheme that results in more points than the other guys at the end of the day each Sunday.
I agree that Solari was trying too hard to do what he thought Herm would want
But theres a difference between a new OC trying to anticipate what will please his boss and being lousey at it and an experienced offensive coordinator with the same philosophy as the head coach learning where he can throw things in to keep the defense on their toes.
It has nothing to do with Herm backing down or Chan standing up to him. People seem to be under the impression that Herm is either a dominating puppet master over his OCs or a gutless coward that gets bullied by them. Nobody ever talks about Herm being that way with Gunther because its ridiculous and its ridiculous to think he is that way with the offensive coordinator as well.
We KNOW how the playcalling goes with the Chiefs because Herm, Solari and Gailey have told us. The offensive coordinator calls the plays, Herm has veto power. They also occassionally have trick plays that they work on in practice (if Herm really was the conservative puppet master people think he is, why would he allow them to even practice the trick plays if he wasn’t behind it?) and Herm often decides when they are going to run those just like he did with the Jared Allen TD passes and just like if you noticed during the game, they called timeout right before they ran the Bradly to Thigpen pass to set it up.
The whole idea that an offensive coordinator in his first year would be able to bully the head coach that hired him around and do things he didn’t like is completely illogical.
A more likely scenario is that Herm trusts Gailey because of his experience and their shared offensive philosophy (unlike Solari) and because of the poor play of the offensive line combined with the QB carousel it has taken Gailey time to get comfortable with what the guy at the time is capable of. Now that Thigpen has gotten signifcant playing time and they have a good idea what he can do, the gameplan is being designed with that in mind and we are getting to see all the good things we heard about Gailey when he was hired.
It’s pretty tiresome to hear the conspiracy theories of this struggle that is going on between the coaches when no one with the Chiefs whether players or coaches have said anything of the kind.
Reading between the sidelines...
I think this is a pretty good piece of logic, DJ:
They also occassionally have trick plays that they work on in practice (if Herm really was the conservative puppet master people think he is, why would he allow them to even practice the trick plays if he wasn’t behind it?)
Whether we need a better strength and conditioning coach, better luck, another draft or whatever…I agree that Chan has had a lot of uncertainty to deal with.
…because of the poor play of the offensive line combined with the QB carousel it has taken Gailey time to get comfortable with what the guy at the time is capable of.
You state that Herm and Gailey have more of a shared philosophy than Herm and Solari. Not challenging that notion, but am not exactly sure what it means?
A more likely scenario is that Herm trusts Gailey because of his experience and their shared offensive philosophy (unlike Solari)
It appears that both Herm’s and Chan’s stated preference is a power running game complemented by enough passing to keep the defense guessing. I believe Herm, however, is much more risk averse, choosing to run the ball three times to make sure more time goes off the clock. Herm also seems to prefer the tried and true (meaning predictable) rather than creativity. Actually, not so much a preference as much as just a limited offensive mind.
Chan, too, believes that championship teams need the ability to run the football, but Chan seems much more inclined…
- to invent things based on current personnel
- to call unexpected plays even at the expense of going against conventional wisdom for a particular down-and-distance
- to believe that some fun on offense motivates them and fires them up to a degree
- to focus more on attempting to gain significant yardage every play instead of Herm’s apparent philosophy of “punting is not always a bad thing”
I think that Solari probably had the thought in the back of his mind, “What would Herm want me to do?” while Chan — after understanding Herm’s overall philosophy — trusts himself and doesn’t worry about taking heat from Herm after the game. (As you said, DJ, Chan has experience along with the respect that accompanies it.)
Solari was also handcuffed by trying to be imitate the Saunders-era successes instead of continuing to grow and do new things, while not having the same playing pieces that existed in previous years. Solari was in a tough situation and it would have taken someone of tremendous willpower, vision and leadership to be successful his first year and I just don’t think he had it.
I for one never said that
I never felt that "Our offense is awful therefore Herm’s calling the plays." or "Our offense looks decent, Herm must have stopped calling the plays".
Quite the contrary, the Head Coach (with emphasis on head) makes the calls on practices, players on the field for a particular week as well as final say so on all play calling since he has the almighty veto capability with any of the other coaches and coordinators.
There’s no funny logic…the HC has the ultimate responsibility otherwise he wouldn’t be the Head Coach.
Do I attribute the Chiefs play good and bad to Herm? Yep. Wish he would actually take some responsibility for the bad.
Just keep matriculating the ball down the field boys.
How many
of the bet quarterbacks ever have “never” turned over the ball?
That’s a ridiculous expectation.
I hold by the same opinion though let him earn it one game at a time.
by bigbearomaha on Nov 7, 2008 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
Question...
Aren’t the Jets and Bucs both Cover 2 teams?
Yea..Jets are not...
The Jets are 3-4 like DJ said…I used to have that theory that Croyle only played good against cover 2 defenses…which could be true…but i dont think it is so for Bones…he has done good…
Tampa Bay
was among the craftiest defenses we will face this year.
They do all kinds of stunts and safety/corner blitzes, blitz LB’s and drop D-linemen into underneath coverage.
I thought Thigpen did a good job of seeing most of that.
Tampa Bay
has had the luxury of being in the same defense with the same defensive coordinator for the last 13 years. It’s no wonder they have been such a dynamic defensive team for so long.
Unlike teams that swap back and forth between 3-4 or 4-3 or any of the others and end up with players that don’t fit the scheme, the Bucs have been drafting players perfect for the system they run every year for more than a decade.
If Herm does not impose will on coordinators...
How come under Vermiel Gun had our defense on the upswing without big name talent, now that we are a base cover two scheme without big name talent, we cannot stop anybody? Just find it funny that the same coordinator cannot get the same results under a different HC. Just sayin… :)
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