Bernard Pollard
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 24, 2008 3:51 PM CST
28 comments
There seems to be divergent opinions on Pollard around here, so maybe we should have a thread about him. He was a 2nd round pick and is in his second year as a fulltime starter. That's a significant player.
I am not impressed with his game. He is a hitter, no doubt. And he's made some plays on special teams, especially as a rookie. But beyond that, I don't see much that's impressive about him. He has been credited with exactly one pass defensed this year, according to his nfl.com page. That's horrible. Maybe it's a statistical fluke, or it's the fault of the bad players around him? But I don't buy that, he always seems to be a split second too late to make the play. It's gotten to the point where I started calling him "Too Late" Pollard yesterday.
He has made some tackles, but a safety is going to make tackles when the players in front of him aren't very good and especially if receivers are always catching passes right next to him. That's my opinion on Pollard, big hitter but is out of position too much and always arrives too late to make the play. He's not a rookie anymore, he should be entering his prime as a DB, and he should be in the proper position on most plays but that's not how I see him playing. IMO, he makes too many mistakes and misses too many tackles. Since he's been a starter, the defense has regressed badly. Maybe someone can make the case that it's not his fault, that he has nothing to do with that. If you can, then do it.
I see him as fine as a 3rd safety and special teamer, but that's not a good return from a 2nd round pick. And it seems like he's going to be a starter here as long as the management that invested that 2nd round pick in him is in charge.
What's the case for him being a good player?
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Case against him
Would be he seems to lack in coverage skills a bit and if I had my choice between a hard hitter and a good cover guy I’m picking the cover guy every time.
by Joel Thorman on Nov 24, 2008 3:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Reoccuring theme
Everyone on Kansas City’s defense is underperforming & underachieving. What’s the common dominator?
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 4:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pollard
I agree he’s not a great pass defender. Although the “passes defended” stat is offset somewhat by the fact that other teams don’t really need to pass against us or force their throws because 1) the Chiefs can’t stop the run and 2) they can’t generate a pass rush on the QB that causes him to rush and make errors. Overall I don’t think Pollard is a bad player and I think he’s solid value for where we got him. Could he be better? Sure. And on a competent defense I think he might be.
I do agree that his killshots at the expense of good tackling are becoming a problem. Bad habits that the coaching staff doesn’t seem to put much effort into correcting as far as I can tell.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 4:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
His numbers are worse than Page, and the same as McGraw
Page has 5 passes defensed and 3 picks. Even McGraw, who is NOT good and hasn’t been out there much, has the same number of passes defensed and intercepted as Pollard: one of each.
Stats aren’t the real issue though. I just don’t see what Too Late Pollard brings to the table other than the hitting, which has been combined with missed tackles and being out of position too often.
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 24, 2008 4:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Pollard's INT
count as that one pass defended?
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 5:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Some nuggets
Pollard is on pace for more tackles this year than last: 95 this year, 91 last year.
His statistics in pass defense have gotten worse: 1 pass defended and 1 interception this year, compared to 7 and 2 last year.
I wonder if the worse defensive play around him makes his job harder? I do not see how it could make him better.
Here are links to the year-by-year stats for Pollard and for two other safeties: Bob Sanders and Troy Palamalu.
Bernard Pollard
http://www.nfl.com/players/bernardpollard/profile?id=POL249174
Bob Sanders
http://www.nfl.com/players/bobsanders/profile?id=SAN287153
Troy Palamalu
http://www.nfl.com/players/troypolamalu/profile?id=POL041872
by pleaseblock on Nov 24, 2008 5:06 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
What?
how can you say this. we have no linebackers and no d line yet we complain about our safety. He can be expected to make every play. plus with no rush those guys have to cover forever. How can we get picks and passes def. when the other qb is never forced throw, they just hang out back there waiting for someone to get open. Look at San Diego, they were awesome last year, now no pass rush and they are the worst passing def in the league. come on. what about all the wasted d line picks. man i have been a chiefs fan for a long time but i am finally getting fed up with this crap.f
by tlane20 on Nov 24, 2008 5:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
He's got the same numbers as Jon McGraw
“How can we get picks and passes def. when the other qb is never forced throw, they just hang out back there waiting for someone to get open.”
Page has been more productive than Pollard and he is the safety playing right next to him, dealing with the same exact issues that Pollard is dealing with. So what’s the case that Pollard is good? He’s not producing anything, and if it’s the fault of the other guys on defense, then why is Page at least defending a few passes and intercepting a couple here and there?
This defense is so bad, shouldn’t everyone out there be questioned? Why should we assume that any one of them is any good? It’s possible that some are solid players being dragged down by the others, and you can make that case for a few of them. Page is someone that at least been active out there, and made a few plays. But I don’t see it for Pollard.
The issues about the lack of pass rush seem like they would impact our corners more than the safeties, but our rookie corners seem to be doing all right. I think everyone’s pretty happy with the rookies. Maybe they just haven’t been ruined by our coaches yet though.
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 24, 2008 5:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
You do realize
that Page and Pollard play different positions, right?
The only time they are doing the same thing is when we are in a simple Cover 2 shell and they split the deep zone.
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 25, 2008 8:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He is a strong safety.
He does have 65 tackles and his job has been tough this year due to the revolving door at corner and the fact that we can’t get pressure on the QB.
Polamalu does have 5 picks which is nice yet he only has 49 tackles. He has a defense that does its job so he can be in position to make those plays. If you compare his stats to every free safety on the AFC pro bowl ballot He is in near the top in tackles and the ones that are better statistically have a freaking defense. If you want you can pick any player on our defense and nit pick. Have fun with that
Indecision is the key to flexibility
by cmpotter on Nov 24, 2008 6:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pollard is not intended to be a coverage safety
The mistake people are making is they are expecting Pollard to be the roaming Derron Cherry type Safety making interceptions and covering receivers in a traditional man to man defense. While that is part of the job of being a safety, Pollards role is much more like that of John Lynch in Tampa Bay or Bob Sanders in Indianapolis in the Cover 2 system. A large part of that role is being the extra man in the box for run support.
The whole defense is having huge problems and the absolute lack of pass rush will make even the best secondary look bad. The fact that we have had no consistent play at LB causes problems too.
by ChiefDJ on Nov 24, 2008 6:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
We're an utter mess
defensively
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 6:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is that?
I keep asking myself what has changed?
The defense has improved each year since Gunther has been here (before this one) but has been getting worse against he run starting last year and continuing this year.
We have gotten some better players. There is no question in my mind that Carr and Flowers are upgrades over Law and Surtain. I think Tank and Dorsey should be better next year with another season under their belt.
The LB corp is an absolute mess. They were counting on Donnie Edwards still being solid and DJ being a Pro Bowler. Donnie can’t stay on the field and DJ keeps disappearing. Nap Harris wasn’t the greatest MLB in the world, but you wonder what happened that they decided to drop him without a real replacment for him (I find it hard to believe they thought Pat Thomas was an upgrade).
Turk was never going to be a big sack threat, but Tamba going from 8 sacks a year his first two years to ZERO his 3rd was totally unexpected. (whatever he did last offseason, he needs to NEVER do again).
by ChiefDJ on Nov 24, 2008 7:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Accidentally hit post
The most obvious change is the loss of Jared Allen, but I don’t believe he is THAT big a difference maker. He certainly hasn’t had the kind of impact for Minnesota that we seem to be suffering by losing him.
by ChiefDJ on Nov 24, 2008 7:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
LB
We didn’t have a LB corps to speak of last year, but I think its our biggest problem area. I contribute the poor pass rush and are inability to stop the run to it. Certainly we’ve realized how pivotal a dominant RE is to our defense but there’s still no question in my mind that the Allen trade was worth it. We weren’t expecting Donnie to be this hurt but whats really to be expected from a 35 year old? His best years are behind him and regardless of what he contributes in the locker room he’s been a wasted salary this season. DJ & DeMorrio will get exceptions this seasons (even though DJ doesnt deserve one), Pat Thomas at MLB is a square peg in a round hole. “Ginger” Boiman hasn’t played poorly but he’s FA reject material that is a good reflection of our quality of LB. It’s just a sorry group all around with no depth. Will you agree with me now we shouldn’t have cut Nap Harris midseason? No reason we couldn’t have waited till the end of the year being as we’re hurting so badly. In many ways I think what can we really expect from those guys but the defensive line should have no exceptions being that its comprised of two 1st rounders, a 2nd & 3rd. Review the history of all defensive lineman we’ve drafted and its just hard to imagine all of these players sucked. Somebody is doing an epic failure at their jobs and its either whomever is charge of player scouting/drafting or defensive line coaching. Knowing our organization its probably both. I just know of no other industry in which you can fail so routinely and no parties be held accountable or still left in charge. This is the big leagues too and I just don’t see how much longer this charade can go on
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I've never understood why they cut Harris
I think it must have been a problem between him and Gun more than the play. He wasn’t spectacular, but there really was no other option behind him. What other possible reason could there be for signing a FA guy to play the most important position on your defense one year and then benching him in preseason the next?
by ChiefDJ on Nov 24, 2008 10:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I Think That's Right
Seemed like they wanted DeMorrio Williams to step in, but then Gun decided he couldn’t do it either. Looks more and more like the problems with the linebacking corps this year are more a result of problems with Gunther.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 10:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If You're Trying To Figure Out Why The Defense Has Regressed So Drastically
You have to look at what’s clearly changed in the defense. And the biggest things to change in the defense this offseason were Jared Allen’s departure and Gunther Cunningham deciding to take over coaching the linebackers.
Jared Allen drew double-teams and a lot of the line’s attention during his time here. That meant that Tamba Hali (whose tackle for loss numbers indicated that he wasn’t particularly good at getting penetration) became the focus of offensive linemen and his production has plummeted. So I’m not so sure that it’s an issue of Hali doing something wrong this offseason as much as Hali’s weaknesses as an end being exposed because he doesn’t have Allen to create opportunities for him.
With the linebackers…well, when your brand new linebackers coach decides that your leading tackler from last year (Harris) isn’t good enough to play for the team this year, dumps him and then benches your team’s biggest free agent acquisition from the offseason (Williams) to replace him with a parade of fringe players and scrubs, and combine that with the team’s most talented linebacker (Johnson) pulling a season-long disappearing act, that would all seem to point to the linebackers coach being the problem…not the players.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 8:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Myopic
Actually advocating for Nap Harris out of disdain for Gunther?
If Carl screwed up by acquiring Harris, but Gunther mismanaged in cutting Harris there’s going to have to be a DMV like numbering system and a bigger bus to fit all these guys under it.
At what point do we blame KC Wolf for his lack of sufficiently inspirational antics?
Sooner or later it’s going to be your fault for not blog commenting critically enough.
“When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.”
Also with regard to Pollard, this post was the most blatantly lame example of trying to make something out of nothing and weak statistical analysis. Pollard is possibly the one bright spot on this defensive roster. He might not be a pro-bowler, but if all our 2nd D picks had turned out as well, hell, our 1st round picks turned out as well, we’d be a much better defense today.
Also, need we remind everyone that Jared Allen was a fourth round pick? Further proof that stat-head draft-junkies are less reliable than the weatherman.
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 25, 2008 4:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're Right About Where To Fix Blame
We have no idea who made the decision to acquire which player because we’re not involved. That’s why I’m always on about firing Carl Peterson first and foremost because he’s the one running this dysfunctional ship and all these screw-ups are ultimately his responsibility.
As for Gunther, when the linebacking corps goes from being a relative strength last year to being a major weakness this year and the biggest thing to change was the linebacking coach (who couldn’t get along with the leading tackler from last season) I think it’s fair to say that the linebacking coach is probably a large part of the reason for the decline.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 25, 2008 8:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why is Pollard a bright spot?
As for “weak statistical analysis,” like I said above, the stats aren’t the important thing, they are just some evidence, some pieces of the puzzle. What is the evidence that Pollard is a good player? Let’s see some pieces of the puzzle in that direction.
All that’s been mentioned so far is your say-so, and blaming the other players, and citing his tackles. Is that strong “statistical analysis”?
He HAS made some tackles this year, but a lot of them have come after a guy’s caught the pass in front of him. And he IS playing behind a weak line and linebackers, but safeties are going to make a lot of tackles behind weak linebackers and linemen.
EVERY player on this bad defense needs to be looked at, no one should get a free pass. They just gave up 54 points to the Buffalo Bills, something that even the horrible defenses of Robinson never did.
There is more wrong with this defense than the weak line and the bad linebackers, and the rookie CBs aren’t the problem.
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 25, 2008 7:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
He has the most tackles on our football team isn't evidence?
So far all we can gather from your argument is that ‘the rest of the defense is so bad that it’s masking Pollard’s secret lousiness.’ We presume the ‘passes defensed’ argument has been solidly debunked at this point, so what is your point?
Ever consider that the guy leading the team in tackles on the worse defense in the NFL is probably better than he even gets credit for?
Last, we hate arguments this ambiguous, but if you’re actually watching all the games how do you not get the sense that he’s the one “play-maker” out there? Maybe it’s dubbing in Chiefs radio for sound, which is admittedly quite fond of him, but who else would you suggest is more impressive?
by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 25, 2008 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Got To Agree With Parade Here
I think Pollard’s definitely got some bad habits in his game (bad angles of pursuit) but overall I don’t think there’s much of an argument that he’s a bad player. He hasn’t got pass coverage numbers like Page because he doesn’t have the same responsibilities as Page because he’s not a free safety, so it’s a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. And most of those habits can probably be addressed through coaching. Is he an All-Pro? No…but he’s one of the few guys producing on a rotten defense.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 25, 2008 12:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The most of anything on this defense is not impressive
“So far all we can gather from your argument is that ‘the rest of the defense is so bad that it’s masking Pollard’s secret lousiness.’”
Actually that’s not it at all. At the beginning of this thread, tiane20 claimed that the poor play of his teammates was holding Pollard back. All I am saying is that yes, his teammates are bad but that isn’t hurting his numbers, it’s actually helping them, because a safety with bad linemen and linebackers get lots of opportunities to make tackles. A safety making 60 or so tackles on this defense, with runners blasting through the line again and again, is not impressive to me. It seems to be impressive to you, so we can agree to disagree there.
“We presume the ‘passes defensed’ argument has been solidly debunked at this point, so what is your point?”
I don’t know about that. I’ve said a few times that the stats aren’t the real issue, they are just pieces of evidence. But as for those numbers, Page and Pollard have different roles, but Pollard managed to defense 7 passes last year, and he is far below that pace this year. Was his role different in last year’s defense? Is that difference just a fluke? I assume you believe at least one of those, but no one’s talked about that aspect of it yet, so I don’t know. Maybe with less dismissiveness and attempted ridicule of differing opinions we could’ve gotten into that, but whatever.
Personally I think his play has fallen off from last year, and last year was his first as a starter and he wasn’t great then. He seems worse to me this year, but that’s just my opinion. And that was the point of this thread, since you asked: to see people’s opinions on him and find out why people like him and see if we need to add safety to our long list of needs. Looks like a lot of people think he’s fine. I’m not convinced, I still think he’s not good, but that difference of opinion shouldn’t be a big deal. I think everyone on this team that’s lost 19 of 20 needs to be scrutinized and that no one should get a free pass, especially anyone who’s a starter on this awful defense.
From the beginning in this thread, I asked people to make the case that he’s good. So far we basically have: the bad players are holding him back, he’s leading the team in tackles, and his position as strong safety and role in run support keeps him from defending a lot of passes. That’s something, so great. But it doesn’t explain his drop in passes defensed from last year, (there might be a good reason for that, but no one’s gotten to that yet) or the fact that his tackle numbers might actually be higher due to the team’s poor defensive line and linebackers.
I don’t see Pollard as a play-maker out there, sure he delivers a lot of hits but he misses a lot too. I wouldn’t say we have any playmakers on defense at this point. DJ had a great week where he was one, and occasionally some others have made plays, but I wouldn’t describe anyone out there as a playmaker. Not many defenses this bad have playmakers out there.
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 25, 2008 5:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"He HAS made some tackles this year, but a lot of them have come after a guy’s caught the pass in front of him."
I think that’s the point of playing safety in the Cover 2, right? Don’t let anyone get behind you?
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 25, 2008 8:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Pollard not at fault for bad defense
I agree with all of the same arguments posted that are pro-Pollard. The guy is a second year starter for a crummy defense that plays a scheme that is not best suited to his talents. As for the return on a second round pick, I remember when he was drafted the Chiefs took him “a round too early” according to most of the “experts”. That is on the Chiefs, not him. As previously mentioned, he is our big hitter and run support safety so mentioning that he doesn’t have big numbers in passes defended and interceptions doesn’t tell the whole story. Very few strong safeties have that all around game and they usually play on awesome defenses that allow them to do those things. I agree that Pollard takes bad angles and tries to go for the big hit when a simple tackle will do. But that is exactly what you want out of that role, you want the safety to cream someone that goes over the middle so they think twice about catching it there again. One of the reasons that he hasn’t stopped doing it, is because we actually cause a lot of turnovers. Something that I haven’t completely researched at all just an opinion, whenever I see Pollard try to blow someone up there is usually another person around the ball that should make the tackle if he doesn’t. If I remember correctly, this happened in the Tampa Bay game in overtime. There were two other players around the ball when Pollard tried for the big hit and they didn’t tackle the guy after the catch. But who was blamed? Pollard, for trying to create a turnover when it was obvious that we weren’t going to stop the Bucs from moving the ball into field goal range. At least he isn’t playing scared and not trying to hit people like a lot of other players on our defense.
by Droppin Deuces on Nov 25, 2008 11:05 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I don't know
I see Pollard showing signs of being a good starting Safety. But I also see him missing a lot of tackles and NOT wrapping up. This isn’t college anymore. This isn’t about getting noticed (with the big hit). Just make the damn tackle. You’ll get more credit for the stop.
But here’s the thing… (Yes, theres a thing)
Let’s wait to pass judgement on B.P. ’til AFTER Gun is let go.
by ROC 27 on Nov 26, 2008 10:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
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