Chiefs Do Everything They Can to Ensure Loss to Bills
by Chris Thorman on Nov 24, 2008 7:11 AM CST
in 2008 Campaign
43 comments
Positive things first
While the Chiefs may not have a net improvement of the team overall, the offense is significantly better than the offense we saw at the beginning of the season. That's a fact.
The one positive stat is that the Chiefs had more yards of total offense than the Bills, 462 to 444. Oh, and we rushed the ball for 159 yards but it was largely ineffective.
Gunther Cunningham
The Chiefs' defensive coordinator has pretty much gotten a free pass from the local media and this blog. That really needs to stop. At some point, when your team is ranked last in every major defensive category and has given up the will to fight hard during games, you have to blame the coordinator. You just have to. Here are how Cunningham's Chiefs' defenses have ranked in his second tenure with the team.
- 2004: 31st overall
- 2005: 25th overall
- 2006: 16th overall
- 2007: 13th overall
Below average rankings, at best with 2008 the icing on the cake. His rush defenses have ranked 12th, 7th, 18th, and 28th respectively. Cunningham is inconsistent and he provides little hope for the future.
About Tamba Hali
He doesn't contribute much on defense. If he eventually doesn't work out, that would fit perfectly in line with the Chiefs' drafting issues. No surprise here. Same with Derrick Johnson.
Thigpen's INTs
It was more amazing that Thigpen didn't have a game like this earlier.
It wasn't just that he threw two interceptions. It was that the INTs he threw directly led to the late first half rally by the Bills that, looking back on it, was the back breaker of the game. Knowing the Chiefs' 3rd quarter woes, who really thought the team would come out firing? Sad to say, I didn't think they would.
Despite a tendency to under throw the long ball, Thigpen's arm strength, accuracy and decision making are all improving weekly. I have never been more wrong in my initial assessment of a player than I have been with Tyler Thigpen. He's pretty good.
Too bad about the running game
The Chiefs only had five rushing attempts in the first half and one of those was by Tyler Thigpen. We ended up with 13 attempts and 159 yards which is an awesome stat. Too bad it didn't matter at any point in the game. The Chiefs were playing catchup from the second quarter on.
Larry Johnson was looking pretty good in the first half but it's the same trap almost every week. The Chiefs are playing catch up and catch rely on the running game.
Lack of turnovers
Remember that crazy stat about how the Chiefs are #2 in the turnover ratio? That bubble popped. After giving up 5 turnovers on Sunday, the Chiefs are tied for 10th in the league.
It was really four turnovers because one of those happened with no time left in the half on a kickoff. Two of them were fumbles and like I said before two were INTs by Tyler Thigpen.
The turnovers absolutely destroyed the Chiefs and they were turnovers that haven't been a normal part of play for the Chiefs in the last month or so. September Tyler Thigpen reared his ugly head for a couple of interceptions but didn't stay around long enough to completely discredit a three-touchdown day.
The kicker with the turnovers is that we didn't force any ourselves. I figured we were good for a strip or at least an INT, right? Trent Edwards had been throwing every defense interceptions for the last four games and the Chiefs didn't capitalize.
We make it too easy sometimes
1/8 on 3rd down? Another "free" touchdown on Leodis McKelvin's pick six?
You have to hand it to the Chiefs sometimes. We make other teams look good. Need to get back on track? Scroll down the schedule and wait until you play Kansas City.
Rock bottom?
If the Chiefs have another repeat performance of the Carolina game later this season, then that is rock bottom. But for now, I can't call a game where the Chiefs score 31 points rock bottom.
What are we doing?
Where's the urgency? Where's the push? What is the team doing to fix it's defense?
I know we can't scrap the whole defensive team this long into the season. I just want to know who's going to stand up and say I'm accountable for giving up the most points in Kansas City Chiefs history.
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Another positive
I was surprised (and am glad) that Thigpen didn’t fold after the pick six and the other INT. I think the Thigpen of 8 weeks ago would have floundered for the rest of the game after those 2 interceptions.
Off topic rant -
When Trent Edwards ran in the second TD, what the hell was the line judge looking at that made him miss the %$@#ing obvious hold that happened 2 feet in front of his dumb face? I don’t think it would have mattered in the long run, but that was ridiculous -
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 8:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
yeah, its nice to know that after you've given the game away
you can regain your poise
by sm7600 on Nov 24, 2008 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didnt take it as a knock on Tyler
but I think he was due a subpar game with the INT’s. I think he grew up some more yesterday and it will lead to him being a better player. I too was wrong on this young man.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 8:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Funny thing about that picture
I count 4 Bills players and the leg of only one Chief. Where was the line, downfield?
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 8:35 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Here's The Thing
I think most of us acknowledge that the defense is a major problem that needs to be addressed next year. So how many of us have any faith in Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson to bring in the right players to address it?
The players flaming out now are pretty much all guys that Herm and Carl brought in. Except for Pollard and Page the 2006 draft class (Herm’s first) is looking like a bust with Hali struggling. The 2007 draft class is actually looking worse, with only Bowe establishing himself as a legitimate starter so far…neither Turk nor Tank have done anything to demonstrate they’d deserve to start on a good team, Turk and Kolby Smith are now both out for the season with injuries and Herb Taylor still doesn’t appear to be viewed as anything more than a backup tackle (which is a problem because the team’s right tackle sucks).
If you look at the Chiefs’ “new” drafting strategy it’s yielding about the same results as the old drafting strategy…so I’ll ask again, who here has faith in Carl Peterson and Herm Edwards to find and develop the players who will fix this?
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 9:02 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm still confused
with your knocks on Taylor as nothing “more than a backup tackle”…did we seriously expect more from a 6th rounder out of TCU? Would it be great if he developed into a starter? yes…is he a bust if he doesn’t?
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 9:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
On This Line
If he’s a backup and he can’t unseat Damion McIntosh, I’d say he’s a disappointment even for a 6th round pick.
And I wasn’t trying to say that Herb Taylor is a bust per se (your point about his draft position is valid)…mainly that the 2007 draft class is shaping up to be a bust because all we appear to have gotten out of it is one legitimate starter, a backup tackle for a terrible offensive line and a couple of guys starting on the worst defense in Chiefs history who can neither stop the run nor rush the passer who we may very well need to replace next season.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When You Can't More Than One Or Two Good Players Out Of Each Draft
And when you don’t do very well in free agency, you’re probably not going to have a very successful rebuilding effort.
I’m glad we’re rebuilding, but we need somebody besides Herm, Carl and Carl’s flunkies to be running it.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 9:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
His track record is worse than Carl's
Carl hasn’t done much to recommend himself in the last 4 years. Kuharich does not seem to be doing much, either.
by sm7600 on Nov 24, 2008 9:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You Mean Personally? :)
Seriously, as a talent evaluator I think that Kuharich isn’t much better than Lynn Stiles. Stiles’ drafts were a little worse than Kuharich’s (so far) but the 2006 draft (Kuharich’s first) is pretty much indistinguishable from the 2005 draft in terms of the quality it yielded us. We got two legitimate starters in 2005 and two in 2006. The drafts before 2005 were abysmal…and right now my rather jaundiced opinion is that 2007 is looking pretty abysmal (unless Tank and Turk seriously step up Bowe will be the only good player we got).
Basically a case of “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”…we got a new guy in charge of drafting but the results of the draft haven’t really changed. The only thing I’m not sure about right now is whether it’s an issue of drafting bad players or simply players who can’t execute what the coaching staff wants them to. In the case of the former, it’s on Kuharich for having a bad eye for talent, in the case of the latter it’s on the coaching staff for not being able to utilize their players’ actual abilities (as opposed to the abilities the coaches would prefer they have). Or it could be a case of both…bad talent selection and bad coaching, in which case it’s both their fault.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How much of Taylor's not being able to unseat Sackintosh
could be the Coaches biased decisions? And/or Carl’s decision that “he wants his money worth”?
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No Clue
But the proof’s in the pudding as the old saying goes, and right now Herb Taylor isn’t really in the pudding…he’s sitting on the shelf with a lot of other unwanted ingredients.
Either way, his failure to get into the lineup is more a knock on Herm and Carl than Taylor. Taylor can only do the best he can with the ability he’s got. Herm and Carl were the ones who decided that he was able to help this team enough to spend a draft pick on him and kept him around for three years only to keep him on the bench behind Sackintosh.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The reason I asked that was
how many players have the “Chiefs” determined weren’t that good and went on to have success elsewhere? I know it has to do with guys wanting more money, but I am thinking of players like K. Mitchell, Keith Traylor, Joe Horn…
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of Mitchell
when he tried to arm tackle LJ and failed, I thought I saw him look at his massive guns in the same way a tennis player looks at his racket after hitting a horrible shot =)
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"You Failed Me...
…stupid guns." :)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Scott Fujita As Well
Wasn’t an All-Pro but he’d probably be starting in our current linebacking corps.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
Some of the excuse was that they didn’t fit the scheme on the field. To me, that’s a lame excuse. Let’s not forget D. Edwards in his prime. Vermeil admitted afterwards it was the wrong call to let him go and he shouldn’t have listened to others to not resign him.
Joe Horn was the worst call of the bunch next to Edwards in his prime.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
by THE_TRUTH on Nov 24, 2008 10:50 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Let’s not forget D. Edwards in his prime. "
Thank you Greg Robinson
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think that there is enough difference
between LT and RT, that maybe Sackintosh (as scary as this sounds) might be better than Taylor at RT?
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 10:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The point I was hinting around was
that Carl and all his coaches cant seem to evaluate things as small as whether a bad smell from down below the waist is actually a fart of bad breath with no warm air to keep it afloat. (looking back that was a bad analysis) Anyways, it seems the evaluation of players CAPABILITY left with Marty and Carl has been reaching for decent coaches ever since.
CLARK – THE PROBLEM IS CARL PETERSON FOR GOODNESS SAKE
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Trendline
Can you go back and get the defensive rankings we had under the previous D coordinator (I’m too lazy to do it myself)? What I see is a trendline starting from the bottom of the barrel and working its way up (31, 25, 16, 13). Had this trend continued this year, we could have reasonably expected to rank 10th or 11th. If Gun inherited a D that was ranked 30, 31, etc it would indicate that he has been able to improve the D overall, with this year being an unexpected (and abysmal) outlier, and he should get the chance to figure out what went wrong and fix it. If he took over a D that was ranked 15th and dropped it to 31 and then worked back up, he should get the axe.
And for the love of everything holy can we find someone that can evaluate (or coach) D linemen?
by Chiefs4Life on Nov 24, 2008 11:07 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
As much as I liked Gun when he was with Marty, he is not the right choice to lead such a young defense and he needs to go next year along with the D-line coach who IMO needs to shoulder much of the blame for the terrible play of the d-line.
by DLChiefs on Nov 24, 2008 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
Some people seem to think Gunther’s getting a pass. IMO Krumrie’s the one who’s really getting a pass. He’s been in charge of a unit that’s on pace for a NFL record low in sacks and that can’t do the basics of their job but outside of this board I never hear his name getting bandied about as a candidate for firing.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Ironically
didn’t we get him from the Bills after he put together a pretty solid d-line there?
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
During his tenure with Buffalo, DE Aaron Schobel racked up 12.0 sacks in 2005. During his tour of duty in Buffalo, the Bills twice finished second in the NFL in total defense, allowing 269.6 yards per game in 2003 and 264.3 yards per game in 2004. Buffalo also registered a league-high 39 takeaways in 2004.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 11:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
I’m pretty sure that’s why we grabbed him…
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 12:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
or he won a local radio contest?
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 12:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You May Also Want To Note
That those two years represent the high point of his 13 year career as a defensive line coach, and the team’s defense went into the crapper his third season there. He also worked as Cincinnati’s defensive line coach from 1995-2002 for a defense that had exactly one decent season defensively (2001) out of the eight he was working for them. For most of his tenure there the Bengals were in the bottom ten teams in the league defensively in both points and yards allowed…same with his final year in Buffalo (when the defense went in the crapper a year after defensive guru Gregg Williams was fired as head coach).
Three good seasons out of thirteen indicates to me that Krumrie’s either not a very good defensive line coach or at best that he doesn’t do a lot to help a struggling defense turn things around. And based on his line’s lack of production this year he deserves to be squarely on the hot seat.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 1:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I wonder if he will play the slap the arms game with
the pilot that jets his big ass out of Kansas City?
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 24, 2008 3:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Back to Tamba Hali
Everyone’s quick to scapegoat Hali because where he was drafted and the job he’s been asked to do he’s not performing. Well let me ask you this – who on defense IS doing their job!? The only player I see creating any pass rush whatsoever is Hali. The 2 scrambling rushing TD’s from Edwards were with Hali in pursuit and sure they kept the cameras on him trying to fault him with poor tackles (I agree his tackling is poor) but the fact is he WAS pass rushing. Just because we didn’t have containment and the LB’s were out of place doesn’t put full liability on Hali. The only player generating a remotely recognizable pass rush is Tamba. This in my eyes makes him the best player on the defensive line because even though he’s not getting TO the QB, he’s getting AT him. I know that’s not good enough but comparatively he’s the best we got and I think its illogical to replace the best player you have at every position
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 3:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
this is truly damning with faint praise
just because he’s the least incompetent doesn’t mean he’s competent
by sm7600 on Nov 24, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So lets replace them all
I would LOVE to see this administrations answers given their knack for talent scouting and signing effective FA’s. It’s just all bogus to me. We bitch and complain about our defense, but most peoples answer to this is is “replace DJ & Hali”. How about we replace the coaches? We’ve cycled thru enough players to watch them fail here and succeed elsewhere. It’s just insanity to try the same approach we’ve been doing and to soon be expecting different results. Once more, the problems here ARE NOT the players. We’ve drafted decently and I don’t fault the administration for that, what I fault them for is being unable to develop and utilize them. It’s kinda like dogs. All puppie’s are great but if you don’t spend the time neccessary to train them and nurture them its the difference between having a replaceable pet and irreplaceable companion.
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm For Keeping Hali If We Get A New Coaching Staff
If we don’t, though, I think it’s a waste of time. And I’m definitely not for re-signing him to a good contract until he produces something out there to show us that his best years aren’t already behind him.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 4:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Hali
The only player I see creating any pass rush whatsoever is Hali. The 2 scrambling rushing TD’s from Edwards were with Hali in pursuit and sure they kept the cameras on him trying to fault him with poor tackles (I agree his tackling is poor) but the fact is he WAS pass rushing.
This is Hali’s third year in the league. He had eight sacks his first year, 7.5 his second and now he’s got one. So while I’m sure he’s trying his best on the line and putting out an effort the fact remains that he’s not producing anything and that’s really all that counts. He was definitely working out there on Sunday, but the fact remains that Edwards was his responsibility, Edwards still scored on him twice, and Hali posted zero sacks on the day in the pass rush. Trying his best just isn’t good enough…not for a guy in his third season who’s supposed to be a core player on this defense.
Or as Sean Connery said it best in “The Rock”:
“Your "best”! Losers always whine about their best. Winners go home and fuck the prom queen."
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The same account
holds true for all our 1st round picks. The only reason Bowe is different because he plays in a position where’s he’s enabled to excel individually whereas on defense it’s a team game. We’re not seeing ANYBODY produce on defense. We could have Ray Lewis @ MLB and analysts and fans all over the country would begin to say he’s over the hill. It’s not the players or talent in KC thats the problem! It’s no coincidence to me that Hali’s worst year statistically coincides with the worst year of football this organization has ever had. And if people think Hali couldn’t succeed in another system in this league…………..I don’t know what more to say….
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 4:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But Bowe Produces
He had an exceptional rookie season and he’s had a very solid sophomore effort this season. He does the job that’s asked of him.
You can’t say the same about Hali…his job is to tackle and rush the passer and he can’t do either of those things effectively.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's Not A Chicken Or The Egg Scenario
We’re not seeing ANYBODY produce on defense.
The defense isn’t producing because the individual players on the defense aren’t producing. Hali is supposed to be one of the better players on that defense. Ergo, one of the reasons the defense is sucking is because Hali is sucking, not the other way around.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fact of the matter is
it doesn’t matter who is out on that field. We would just have new players to talk about who aren’t doing their jobs. We’re at a historical lowpoint. It’s just the easy thing to do to scapegoat the players who aren’t producing, rather than the management and administration responsible for putting players in place to succeed. For instance, Tyler Thigpen. Without Chan Gailey you think Bones would had a flying chance in hell this season? If we were running Herm’s offense I wonder how many of us would be bitching about Jamaal Charles right now? It’s just terribly shallow and superficial to me to scapegoat the players for our dismal performances. At the extent it is, there is obviously something much bigger here if SO many players are underachieving this badly.
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I Agree With That
The problem isn’t really the players, or at least I don’t think they’re the major problem with this team. I think it all comes down to coaching. We can keep running more players through here and they can have all the talent in the world, but until the coaching staff comes up with schemes that utilize their abilities instead of playing to their weaknesses the Chiefs aren’t going to win a lot of football games.
So I agree that scapegoating the players is usually a pointless exercise. But in Hali’s case I think we would be remiss if we didn’t point out that he’s having a really horrific season and that he’s never produced like we’ve been told he would based on where he was drafted. I’m willing to accept that the underachievement last year was at least partly about bad coaching. This year, though, with only one sack all season I think you’ve seriously got to question just how good of a player Hali is and whether he’s good enough to start in the NFL if he doesn’t have an All-Pro lining up on the other side of the line from him.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I have questioned that
And after extensive review and game footage it’s plain as day to me Hali is not the problem. Hali’s horrific year coincides with everyone elses on this team. He’s still young, he’s still talented, he still has a shot at establishing himself in the league. But certainly it won’t be in KC with our coaching staff.
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 24, 2008 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe
I’d be willing to buy that if he was on pace for six or seven sacks this year. But not when he’s looking like he’ll be lucky to get two or three. At that level of production I think it’s safe to say that you’re not dealing with a core player no matter how bad the coaching staff is…you’re dealing with a journeyman who’s not going to be that tough to replace.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 5:00 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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