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Kansas City Chiefs, Struggling Economy Contribute to Increased Bulk Liquor Sales

33d9aa77-d717-4ae6-8a70-ac3fd73a63ef_medium

via ESPN.com

Chiefs lose, 54 to 31.

Yes, that's right. The Buffalo Bills scored not only the most points by an opponent at Arrowhead Stadium but the most points against the Chiefs ever.

(Sigh) Let's quickly note what went wrong. Again.

  • QB pressure? A sack? Anyone?

  • 5 turnovers? No matter how good the Chiefs were if this happens, we should lose.

  • 9 rushing attempts by your running backs isn't a winning stat. I know the Chiefs' were forced early on to pass to catch up and it only added to the slaughter.

  • If we can't compete against the Bills in this situation, who can we compete with? Nobody, that is the answer. A completely broken defensive line is a back breaker for any team.

  • I know there have been a lot of defensive injuries this year but Gunther Cunningham's entire career in Kansas City needs to be analyzed and scrutinized by Clark Hunt this off-season. To me, the numbers don't add up to Cunningham keeping his job.

The lows keep getting lower in Kansas City.

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Yeah...but we're improving

geeez….we lost against a 5-5 team by the most points at home in Chiefs history. What has management learned about this team? Not much except that rebuilding isn’t working with the people making the decisions. Period.
We are A LONG way from being a winning team let alone a team that’ll make the playoffs and eventually the SB.
Don’t JUST blame the defense. The offense played at the defense level….horrendous considering that the Bills Defense is piss poor.

Herm just said that we haven’t played that way in a month…I disagree…we’ve played losing football a lot longer.

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

by THE_TRUTH on Nov 23, 2008 3:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He basically said

….that they haven’t played poor in a month and we played close the last month. He blamed 20pts. over 5 turnovers as well by the offense.
Said very little but was asked about the team and he basically said that the players have to play good football. (Basically washed his hands)

IMHO since we lost 54-31 that means we would’ve lost 54-51…still a loss if we swayed the 20 pts. our way. He’s an idiot.

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

by THE_TRUTH on Nov 23, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 3:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't say it enough, accountability

You don’t place blame on others, you take blame on yourself (no matter WHO it is) and strive to do better for your TEAM.
I am coining the nickname " HARMAGEDDON " for Herm. He is destroying the Chiefs.

have you seen my baseball?

by IISaiNtII on Nov 24, 2008 10:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I Like The Phrase

But couldn’t “HARMAGEDDON” be more appropriately used a general term to describe any team that gets run into the ground by incompetent managers (front office or coaching staff) who refuse to take responsibility for their actions? I’m thinking that Harmageddon could also be used to describe the Raiders, Jets, and Bengals.

Herm certainly wasn’t the first “leader” to bring Harmageddon down on his team, but based on the catchiness of the phrase and how thoroughly inept and oblivious he is to his own shortcomings I think he should be its poster child from here on out.

Short version of what I’m saying, I like the term. :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 11:38 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And I'm Referring More To The Jets Of The Joe Walton Era

When the fans booed every first round pick as it was being made because they recognized the organization’s shortcomings well before the organization ever did. :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 11:42 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

:)

Harm just wasn’t enough. Carl Peterson rained Harmageddon onto the Chiefs… Kind of has a nice ring to it.

have you seen my baseball?

by IISaiNtII on Nov 24, 2008 11:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Someone Needs To Come Up With A Good "Harmageddon" Graphic

Maybe Parade or Truth…they appear to be the specialists. :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 2:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

So it's come down to this...

…we’re inventing catch-phrases in order to entertain ourselves after all these dismal performances. What next…a video of the Chiefs singing to 80’s music with cheerleaders whose hair is primped to the sky?
:-)

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

by THE_TRUTH on Nov 24, 2008 12:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

can we call it

Primped-out Caroling?

have you seen my baseball?

by IISaiNtII on Nov 24, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Or

Primp my christmas carols?

have you seen my baseball?

by IISaiNtII on Nov 24, 2008 12:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fuzzy math

swaying the 20 points our way would result in a final score of

Chiefs 51 Bills 34…

your math turned the 20 points into 40 =)

by PVChiefsfan on Nov 24, 2008 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Actually

It means Chiefs 31 – Bills 34. That means we still would have lost. I am glad that Herm points out the extra 20 points as the reason.

by chai1836 on Nov 24, 2008 2:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yup

Herm’s took great things at the press conference to try and lay blame on everyone but the obvious culprit…the NFL’s worst defense. Probably because that’s supposed to be his area of specialty and every week we’re finding out more and more just how clueless he is at it.

This is only the start of Herm’s finger-pointing at the offense. Gretz already started beating the “it’s the offense’s fault/we’re scoring too fast” drums to make excuses for why the defense can’t get any stops.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 2:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i honestly think we cant win with this spread….. i say we get rid of herm carl gunther get new staff draft a quaterback…and pick up cassel or anderson as a free agent and biuld and bulk this offensive line up and run a pro play actiion offense

by kcchiefsfan56 on Nov 23, 2008 3:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

It's Not The Spread

We scored 31 points with the spread. The spread is not the problem…the shitty, shitty, shitty, shitty defense is the problem. Herm’s playcalling is the problem. The spread is one of the few things on this team that isn’t a problem.

All that would happen if we ditch it is we’d be losing while scoring a lot fewer points. Thanks, but not thanks.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 3:37 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed UC even Gray looked good and comfortable in the spread. And our defense sucks.

by DLChiefs on Nov 23, 2008 3:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Herm doesn't call plays.

So blaming his “playcalling’” is faulty.

Sure, you can blame Herm for plenty of things (although I think that most fans tend to blame him too much, but that’s just me), but you can’t blame his “playcalling”.

by rockchalk on Nov 23, 2008 5:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Herm's The Head Coach

He’s the one with the authority to sign off on or override any playcalls that the offensive or defensive coordinators make. So Herm is actually the one responsible for the playcalling even if he’s choosing to defer to his coordinators’ choices. Therefore the blame should rightly fall on him.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 5:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

in that case

this all clark hunts fault

in which case….

im not impressed with your performance

by troy145 on Nov 23, 2008 6:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No,

But as head coach he should exhibit some leadership and take some of the blame, instead of blaming the one part of the team that’s kept them in games.

have you seen my baseball?

by IISaiNtII on Nov 24, 2008 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

and get jim johnson or rex ryan in here as the defensive corrdiantor

by kcchiefsfan56 on Nov 23, 2008 3:33 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I FINALLY UNDERSTAND

I just had a eureka moment. I criticized Herm earlier this week for basically saying that the team needs to make the plays and the coaches have done everything they needed to do. I attributed this to Herm not taking responsibility…I was wrong.

During this weeks practices I bet he saw how horrible the team was practicing. He foresaw this. Too bad he can’t figure out how to fix it before the game.

Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."

by THE_TRUTH on Nov 23, 2008 3:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

as a troy university student

i am at least happy for leodis mckelvin

im not impressed with your performance

by troy145 on Nov 23, 2008 3:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

He Played Well

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 3:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

he's gonna be a star

as a decent corner but a great kick return threat

im not impressed with your performance

by troy145 on Nov 23, 2008 5:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Zero Sacks

That’s beyond pathetic…especially playing against a team that hasn’t been that great at rushing this year.

The only defensive positive appears to be that Rocky Boiman is emerging.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 3:41 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Get rid of the spread? You must be joking

Do you have eyes? I’m really curious because this last month the chiefs have been more prolific on offense than any time since herm has been here..We’re constantly putting up atleast 20-30 points as opposed to 10..The spread is working out great for us..Just because Thigpen struggled doesn’t mean the spread is wrong..Thigpen had some good throws and some bad..The kid has a lot of potential..He has shown us so much more than brodie..Good arm..check..can run and escape defenders..check..is very young..check..

The problem is herm..But don’t say the spread is the problem, that’s idiotic

by CALIFAN1986 on Nov 23, 2008 4:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Agreed

The spread’s making these games at least watchable. If they hadn’t implemented it we’d have spent the last month looking at more games like Tennessee and Oakland and Atlanta. They’re at least giving the team a chance to compete and maybe pull out a win or two. Anytime you can put up 30 points, you’ve got a shot to win even with a crap defense. When you can only score 10-20 points and you’ve got a crap defense all you’re probably going to see are blowouts.

By the way, I can’t wait for Herm to start whining about how scoring so many points is what’s killing our defense because it wears them out. You all know it’s coming. He’ll throw the only successful part of the team under the bus to try and get everyone not to notice what a miserable failure he is at the part of football he’s allegedly good at…defense.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 4:55 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At least

Chinese Democracy turned out to be a decent album.

by Chris Thorman on Nov 23, 2008 4:06 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Good Album

I liked it better than Chinese Democracy.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 4:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

alter bridge

makes better GNR music than GNR these days

im not impressed with your performance

by troy145 on Nov 23, 2008 4:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Is That The Band's Name?

Alter Bridge? If so I’ll take a look at them. Always liked the old GnR stuff.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 4:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah

their solos are very slash-esque

look up “Open Your Eyes”

im not impressed with your performance

by troy145 on Nov 23, 2008 4:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

steve adler

actually drums on one of their new videos

im not impressed with your performance

by troy145 on Nov 23, 2008 5:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Defense was the problem

Our defense is awful..What happened to herm being educated about the defense? Tamba Hali looks terrible..

I’ve been following chinese democracy for years, listening to the leaks for years..I’m loving today!

by CALIFAN1986 on Nov 23, 2008 4:08 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

By the way

I labored intensely over whether or not to make a Pistol joke in the caption about this post’s picture.

by Chris Thorman on Nov 23, 2008 4:25 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

excuses

you know your bad when you can always manage to come up with a new excuse for losing…every week there’s a new reason why we lose. Herm needs a come to jesus moment and realize he’s close at all to winning. The only chance we have is if the other team doesn’t show up.

"stuck in Dallas"

by johnnyo_99 on Nov 23, 2008 4:27 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

At least it's not like Dick Jauron

When the Bills lose, Jauron says the same *&^% thing over and over, “We’d like to be 11-0, but we’ll take [whatever crappy record we’ve got].”

By the way, thanks for an awesome blog. Other than my home team Buffalo Rumblings, you guys definitely have the most entertaining and interesting team blog on SB Nation. I’ll be coming back.

by thefourwinds on Nov 23, 2008 6:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Happy To Have You

By all means pop in whenever.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 6:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't usually get in on the "Fire _______!!!" stuff but....

Gun needs to go. Our defense is terrible. I know that turnovers put them in in some bad places, but Edwards looked like a RB. What kind of defensive scheme allows Trent Edwards to run free like that? There hasn’t been much improvement since Gun took over for Greg Robinson. Realistically since he’s the only coach on our staff in jeopardy of losing his job this year anyway, pull the trigger.

by ill_spec on Nov 23, 2008 4:35 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

wow, I guess a QB

is responsible for the receivers not doing their job. One INT I saw ( we got to see the game this week, finally )was caused because the receiver let his defender beat him to the inside position and lost the match up. Guess that QB has all the control over that.

Thigpen did make s couple bad tosses. All you Herm lovers should be on board with the “got to let the players have time to develop” you always shove down others throats, this is right up your alley.

I also saw him complete a majority of passes, run for at least one first down, march the offense down the field for a TD in less than 5 minutes.

Wow, he sucks

Huard was SO much better huh?

Had nothing to do with Offensive Linemen getting flags and penalties for stupid reasons. One that actually called back a 26 yard play by TG.

Oh Wait, that must be QB’s fault too.

Now let’s see What about the defense? Shoot, were the defensive unit on the filed today? I saw a lot of really really bad attempts at tackling ( actually, can’t even call it tackling if you don’t try to actually get your hands on the guy, DUH )

It is NOT all the QB’s fault here.

It seems, the staff has a lot of young and apparently inept people on the field.

Who makes that call? The QB? Wow, he has a lot of power. One might think he was the Head Coach or something.

The offense as a whole had a bad day getting unneeded penalties and not being on their game.

The defense was non existent.. Where would we be if the defense actually did their job and kept some breathing room in the game? fewer hurried calls and plays? maybe. Less of an uphill climb to stay in the game? definitely.

by bigbearomaha on Nov 23, 2008 5:05 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I quit

reading that twits articles a long time ago.

by bigbearomaha on Nov 23, 2008 5:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You Shouldn't

Between the Jeff George recommendations and whining about trends in hip-hop culture he actually makes some really good points about this team and football in general. Sometimes you have to dig a little to find them, of course. :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 5:12 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And Good Points About The Game

I agreed with all of them.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 5:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What hurts the most to me is giving up the most points ever at Arrowhead.

 I would make the defense practice all night tonight like Herb Brooks did with the ‘80 US Olympic hockey team. If they aren’t going to play hard in a game, I would make them pay for it in practice. Maybe we can bring Bobby Knight in as a consultant and he can choke a few players or something.

I keep thinking that the players are about to give up, and it seems the defense at least has done that.

by TheQ on Nov 23, 2008 5:34 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I Still Think The Blame Lies With The Coaching Staff

These are the players they chose, after all, and they’re in charge of filling in the lineups. If the players aren’t performing or if they’re giving up on the team then the coaching staff deserves the blame for not holding them accountable and for continuing to play them.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 5:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I totally agree

I think that some heads need to roll. I am sure that record alone is cause to consider some liquidation of staff. Even coaches that I have respect for like Gunther. It is all about performance. As to the players, it is awfully hard to watch them lay down. No pride, no guts. Even a train wreck comes to a stop eventually.

by TheQ on Nov 23, 2008 6:00 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Gunther's Probably Going First

I honestly wouldn’t be surprised to see him get the axe this week. His defense has been horrible pretty much all year and they’re killing the team. If Herm and Carl want to secure their jobs they can’t have the worst defense in the NFL after they’ve been rebuilding it for three seasons. I don’t think Gunther will make it to the end of the season, mainly because Herm and Carl will see him as a threat to their jobs.

However, I’m also hoping that the Chiefs don’t fire him…mainly because anything that would cause Herm and Carl to get fired is a good thing so for the long-term health of the Chiefs keeping Gunther for the full year is a good thing (even if he’s possibly killing our defense) because it increases the likelihood of regime change this offseason.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 23, 2008 6:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It all starts with Carl in my opinion

I think we may have a parade (not the Official PARADE) , but an actual rip roaring, darn tootin’ Parade if Peterson was fired! The writing’s on the wall, I can’t help it if Clark can’t read it! I just don’t get the impression that anyone is getting the boot. Can’t we just fire one coach, maybe the strength and conditioning coach, just to get it out of our system? Throw us a bone here…

by TheQ on Nov 23, 2008 6:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We're historically awful.

I mentioned last week how we’re in a worst losing slump ever, even before the 80s. Now, we managed to even shatter a record that’s been around longer than I have. Gosh I love these Chiefs.

/This is gonna be fun to watch the turnaround.
//Kool-aid is good
///Especially spiked.

"If there’s a god he’s laughing at us and our football team." - Ben Folds

by webby37 on Nov 23, 2008 10:42 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

We blame the Tampa 2 more than Gun

Too many chefs spoil the soup and Herm has instituted a finesse defense on 4-3 ‘we break you screw this bending crap’ coordinator.

We need to scrap the Tampa 2, and while we all want blood on the floor, we’d say the Carl Herm (doesn’t seem likely to be able to fire one and not the other) combo axing would probably be more in the team’s interest.

Regardless, we’re coming around from our position of wait until the off-season to evaluate the coaching staff of a team in transition. If there are options out there (not likely for both GM and Coach), might as well send a message

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 23, 2008 6:18 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Doesn't anybody within the Chiefs organization read AP?

I think Bob Gretz does judging by his rebuttal to the “Tool” accusation. If we could get Clark Jr. to quit going to soccer games long enough to watch some proper American football, he might realize something ain’t quite right. We do need to send a message.

I am sick of the Tampa 2. If the Tampa 2 is drop 30 yards in coverage and let your opponents complete passes for 25 yards, then enough already. I miss Gunther’s attacking style of D. Not to wax nostalgic, but I remember when it was sooooo loud at Arrowhead, and DT and Neil would be coming off the edge, opposing QBs would be pissing their pants! I don’t think the Tampa 2 instills fear in quite the same manner. With performances like today, I am afraid Gunther is going to have a stroke. No really, it is not good for his health.

by TheQ on Nov 23, 2008 7:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Might I suggest...

… that the Gunther you miss never existed. Derrick Thomas (and slightly less, Neil Smith) made Gunther Cunningham.

-cw

"If there’s a god he’s laughing at us and our football team." - Ben Folds

by webby37 on Nov 23, 2008 10:43 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And you might be wrong

The more plausible explanation is that a combination of Marty (a head coach with the same defensive philosophy) and possibly a less complex offensive strategic landscape benefited Gunther’s dominant defenses. However, if we’re going to can Gunther on results oriented thinking (e.g. discounting Herm’s influence, player injuries, the loss of Allen and an entirely cycle of rookie replacemtents) we humbly suggest we evaluate his past success in the same light (e.g. discounting the obvious stars of those teams).

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 24, 2008 12:40 AM CST up reply actions   1 recs

+1

If Gun was allowed to run the D like he did in his first time here we would be a lot better. This Tampa 2 variation that we run is all read and react, we need to go back to taking it to the offense and not reacting to what they do.

It would also help if we could get players of a little talent. Other than the rookie corners we don’t have anyone on D with above average talent right now.

by tevans96 on Nov 24, 2008 1:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm Not Sure That's Really The Case

It’s been a long time since the guy was a standout defensive guru, he’s in his fourth year of rebuilding the defense in this stint and he’s never had better than a middling defense. I’m sorry but it simply doesn’t take four years in today’s NFL for a good defensive coordinator to rebuild a defense…especially when the lion’s share of first day picks have been defensive players. And right now the defense is the worst in the NFL (or close…depending on how the Lions did today).

I agree with Jon Yoon over at MVN…Gunther’s act seemed to be successful a decade ago, but when the guy’s entire game is motivation through fear and nobody really fears him then all he’s doing when he screams at the players is making himself look ridiculous and wasting the team’s time and resources.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Nov 24, 2008 2:02 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't forget

The excellent post earlier this week, which earned a mention from Dr. Z over at Sports Illustrated, (don’t remember by whom) about how the overwhelming majority of our high draft picks in the last few years have been spent on defense. And our defense blows. They should be the strength of the team, not a huge liability allowing the most points EVER at Arrowhead. Now if only we knew who was responsible for making those picks………..

by ryan_andersen98 on Nov 23, 2008 6:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Sorry

But in all fairness, your article made me cry first. Props on the Dr. Z shout out by the way.

by ryan_andersen98 on Nov 23, 2008 6:48 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I almost made a second "Thank you, AP" thread.

Chris, primetime, ChiefDJ, and Direckshun have done an outstanding job with AP. They have made this a fantastic site, and they give us all voices. Thank you, AP.

Also, it goes without saying that I agree with your original post.

by DThomasReigns on Nov 23, 2008 6:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not to downplay the doom and gloom but

I think this game was an affirmative “Hell yes!” to the “Does LJ fit in this offense anymore?” sayers. If the defense played better, I think LJ could’ve ripped ’em a new one. He also was doing pretty good at pass blocking. I really hope he stays with the Chiefs because he is an All-Pro ’Back.

by Ilamuku on Nov 23, 2008 7:09 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I travelled cross country for THIS?

Tailgate was good, nice juicy tenderloin.

Oh yeah the game. Well, I have to say that stadium was a sad reflection of the past. I would say it was half full. Wait back up, the car park was half full not even a line to get in and we end up parking about 3 sections closer in. I felt like I was shouting on behalf of the thousands of empty seats. Then to see people start streaming out in the middle of the THIRD quarter. There I was doggedly trying to stay, standing up waving my arms. I was sorely disappointed in section 122. We eventually said, ok we’re going when they get to 50 points. So I missed Gray’s introduction.

Thigpen didn’t have a good game, but we knew a bad one was coming. But the whole team was down. The D was non-existent. Sure LJ fired off a few long runs but. The stat that caught my eye during the game was the number of plays our scoring drives took, around 5 or 6. No long time grinding drives down field. We could barely string half a dozen plays together. That left our rubbish D on the field much quicker than they would have liked. I hope Thigpen is back next week, I don’t think he deserves to take all the blame for this.

Blame my wife!

by sir eccles on Nov 23, 2008 7:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

I left in the third

It truly is sad to see the place like that.

If you want to feel like a real idiot, split a pair of club level seats with three buddies and realize that you’ve already paid $110 plus a parking pass for the Dolphins game on December 20. Great decision.

by hippdoghipp on Nov 24, 2008 10:09 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Mine are on e-bay now for $51.00 - 40 yd line club level.

I actually cannot believe they are selling for that much.

by chai1836 on Nov 24, 2008 2:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

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