The Chiefs Defense: An Absolutely Terrifying Set of Statistics
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:04 PM CST
97 comments
From the FanPosts. Tweaked the title a touch. Thanks DThomasReigns. -Chris
I was listening to 810 after the game Sunday, and Jack Harry said something I didn't actually believe.
We have argued draft failures many times before here...nothing new; however, when Jack said this I was floored (paraphrased):
"In the last 7 years, the Chiefs have spent 4 of 7 First round picks on Defense, EVERY Second round pick on Defense, and 5 Third rounders on Defense."
My first thought was, "That has to be wrong." I thought about it all day at work and was just going to post that without researching it - because I am stat lazy. But, I decided to go back over the last 8 drafts to encompass the full Vermeil and Herm eras.
Here are the results, and they are DISGUSTING. Even from the beginning of the Vermeil and Herm eras, the Defense has not been ignored:
Of the Picks Not Traded Since the 2001 Draft
1st Round: 4 of 6 have been on Defense (67%)
2nd Round: 6 of 6 have been on Defense (100%...100 freaking percent!)
3rd Round: 5 of 9 have been on Defense (56%)
71% of of every 1st through 3rd round draft pick in the last 8 years has been on Defense.
By Position:
DT = 6 (7 if you count McBride)
DE = 2 counting McBride as a DE
LB = 3
S = 2
CB = 2
By Year (with names):
2001 = 1st - No First pick. 2nd - No Second pick. 3rd - Defense, Eric Downing DT. 3rd - Offense.
2002 = 1st - Defense, Ryan Sims DT. 2nd - Defense, Eddie Freeman DT. 3rd - No Third pick.
2003 = 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Kawika Mitchell LB. 3rd - Defense, Julian Battle CB.
2004 = 1st - No First pick. 2nd - Defense, Junior Siavii DT. 2nd - Offense. 3rd - Defense, Keyaron Fox LB.
2005 = 1st - Defense, Derrick Johnson LB. 2nd - No 2nd pick. 3rd - Special Teams.
2006 = 1st - Defense, Tamba Hali DE. 2nd - Defense, Bernard Pollard S. 3rd - Offense.
2007 = 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Turk McBride DT/DE. 3rd - Defense, Tank Tyler DT.
2008 = 1st - Defense, Glenn Dorsey DT. 1st - Offense. 2nd - Defense, Brandon Flowers CB. 3rd - Offense. 3rd - Offense. 3rd - Defense, DaJuan Morgan S.
I really feel sick looking at all of this over the last 8 drafts, and we still have the 32nd ranked Defense. Blame Vermeil...blame Herm, but there has only been 1 person in charge over that entire period.
[U] Those are 15 first day Defensive players. Even if we whiffed on 4 of them, that is still an ENTIRE starting defensive team in their prime. Add to that FA's in that period like Ty Law, Pat Surtain, Napolean Harris, Donnie Edwards, Demorrio Williams, Alphonso Boone...and keep in mind Jared Allen, Jarrad Page, and Brandon Carr were second day picks and don't factor into this scenario.
Our Defense is, and has been, so horrendously broken it almost defies blame...but it doesn't. It is inexcusable.
This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.
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Nice work DTR.
There are quite a few of the media starting to come down on Herm, they have always been on Carl. Maybe things will start to change with the media coverage this team and management are starting to get. Hopefully Clark will take action.
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 7:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Not good.
Just considering this year, do you think the talent is 32nd? Or is it the coaching they’re receiving? I realize injuries are playing a part, and the offense didn’t help the first few games, but the results are putrid. Excellent write-up!
DBs seem to have the talent (Flowers/Carr, to a lesser degree Page and Pollard.) LBs need help, although I still like DJ. Defenfensive line — Are these boys going to mature into good players? I’m 50/50 on that one. I think Dorsey will be good. He’s a keeper. But the line play is terrible at this point.
by sunny D on Nov 17, 2008 7:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Regarding your questions on the D
My opinions only.
The injuries now do not excuse the performances over the past 8 years. In terms of this post, Page and Carr are 2nd day picks, and do not even factor into the horrible drafting. I am really high on both (I would be through the roof if Page tackled better).
The D Line and LB picks are absolute failures, save DJ. DJ can play, but regardless of whether it is a FA or Draft Pick, the LBs fail.
I really question if Krumrie can coach DL’s, or Gun LB’s. Sure, they sound good and are fired up, but we never see any result from free agents or rookies.
I really don’t know. I do know the system, from drafting to coaching over the last 8 years is horrible broken.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, I do not think Dorsey is a failure or bust. I think he can be great.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And DJ
Hasn’t even been that good this year. He’s shown flashes but IMO fewer flashes than last year. I think Gunther’s “tutelage” has actually caused him to regress.
And I’ve come to the same conclusion about Krumrie…he sounds all intense and impressive in front of the cameras and he was a solid player, but I think the guy’s a complete fraud as a coach. People ripped on Pete Carroll for being overly sensitive about the “drill” Krumrie ran Sedrick Ellis through at the combine, but Carroll was a solid defensive coordinator in the NFL (if not that good of a head coach) and he knows a b.s. way of evaluating talent when he sees it. And he thought Krumrie’s drill was complete b.s.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Completely agree.
If Krumrie’s “bitch slap” drill was effective at evaluating DL talent, why does our DL suck?
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It's A Wrestling Drill
At least that’s what one pundit said. You get the player to shrug off the other guy’s hand to see how long he can last. Of course it’s almost useless for evaluating technique because plays don’t run continuously as long as that drill does…unlike in wrestling where you’re constantly grappling.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 7:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Awesome point.
Imagine if Krumrie’s “drill” was 4.5 secs of pushing past somebody instead of flailing arms for 5 minutes…you know, like what D Lineman actually do. :)
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What idiot stepped out on a limb and called the Krumrie drill
an acceptable and comprehensive evaluation of defensive line talent? Obviously it was Krumrie because our Def line sucks with talented players begging for competent coaching and direction.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 18, 2008 9:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What...
was Carroll’s comment exactly? Just curious.
by chiefsfan1384 on Nov 18, 2008 3:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That Krumrie Will Not Be Running His Drill At Any Future Pro Days
His direct quote was “That won’t happen here again”. I can’t find the full comment where he expanded on that (the San Bernadino paper that printed them currently won’t load) but the gist from most other sources was that Carroll was unhappy that Krumrie decided to run a contact drill on his player without pads, that he didn’t see the evaluative merit in the drill Krumrie ran (which he referred to as a hand-to-hand combat drill), and that he exhausted the player (Sedrick Ellis) in the middle of the Pro Day (thereby affecting the other drills Ellis had to run).
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 8:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant to put this in the post, but forgot.
That’s 15 first day Defensive picks in the last 8 years. Even if we missed on 4 picks, that is still a complete starting Defensive team of players in their prime.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Chris, thanks for the title edit. If i thought this was going on the front page, I may have tried a bit harder. :) Good edit.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
No problem
Search engine stuff.
by Chris Thorman on Nov 17, 2008 7:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yup
This is the guy who’s in charge of our rebuilding effort, all you Herm and Carl apologists. He’s spent the lion’s share of his draft picks on defense for the last seven years and we’ve still got the worst defense in the NFL.
Now tell me how he’s finally happened on that magical Super Bowl formula…go ahead, I dare you to make a case that’s got any basis in reality.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 7:36 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
And Excellent Post, DTR
Seriously…very well done.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 7:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, man. I have to give credit to Jack Harry and 810 for making me think non-stop about this horrible fact.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
71% Of All First Day Draft Picks For The Last Seven Years On Defensive Players
Absolutely unreal. I can’t believe I missed that particular piece of data.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 7:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is actually 8 drafts. It is even worse than I originally thought yesterday.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Add into that stat that Vermeil wanted a Defensive player instead of LJ in 2003 and it would be even worse.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 7:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
An 8 year experienced Defense should have won a Super Bowl or two!
An 8 year experienced Defense should have won a Super Bowl or two! An 8 year experienced Defense should have won a Super Bowl or two! It’s that echo thing again…
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 18, 2008 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
different perspective
Maybe the glass is half full? Herm’s watch has produced five or six solid players on defense in four years of rounds 1 through 3, while Vermeil’s watch produced one: Mitchell.
In general, I want to see data comparing Chiefs’ drafts to other teams’ drafts. We have no way of evaluating whether the Chiefs’ drafts are “good” if we do not know quantitatively what “good” is. We are not unbiased observers so our minds might lie to us; the numbers will not.
by pleaseblock on Nov 17, 2008 7:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
we know what isn't "good"already
the Chiefs defense has not been good since Vermeil’s tenure.
by sm7600 on Nov 17, 2008 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And It's Gotten Worse Since He Left
Seriously, there’s no excuse for the crappy level of performance on D this year. Not after this many draft picks have been invested in it and certainly not after Gunther decided to micromanage the linebackers this offseason (only to see them get even worse). Gunther may have been a good DC back when Derrick Thomas and Neil Smith were rushing the passer for us, but neither of those guys are playing now and he’s not developing anyone who looks like they’re going to be replacing him.
By the way, Napoleon Harris…the LB who led our team in tackles last year who Gunther said wasn’t good enough to play linebacker for us this year? He’s getting four tackles a game as a reserve in Minnesota and he’s got one sixth as many sacks as our entire team has put up this year…after four games. Oh yeah…it was definitely a smart move to dump him so we can play whoever the hell is starting for our linebacking corps this season.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 8:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Glad to hear someone else say it
There’s no reason we should have cut Napoleon Harris. Sure we threw a big contract at him which would have kept costing us on down the road but take a look at who we’re playing now and furthermore the FA’s we’ve signed. He was healthy too when we started incurring injuries yet they still chose not to play to him. I’m sure he’s glad to be gone from Kansas City but I for one would liked to have stay for the rest of the season. Then we wouldn’t have to play an extra safety set with McGraw as a friggin’ LB…
by KansasCityShuffle on Nov 17, 2008 8:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You noticed that too?
During the very short replay of the Saints flea flicker, I know I saw McGraw as a LB in the 4-3. I didn’t say anything in the gameday thread because it was a backside camer replay and I couldn’t see the entire D.
But the way he was lined up, I thought, “Holy God, is McGraw playing LB???!!!”
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We shouldn't...
of even had to sign Harris. We didn’t resign the best player we drafted in those eight years. Mitchell was a mad man on MNF tonight.
by chiefsfan1384 on Nov 18, 2008 3:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The D was statisticly getting
Better each year with Gun under Vermiel, just sayin.
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You mean, Herm's Tampa/Cover/Soft Zone/Figured Out By Everyone Defense isn't working?
How dare you intimate that every team in the league knows where to squat in the zone? It is like only a 10 year old defense. Before our spread O, we were running a 30 year old Offense. The Cover no one 2 is only like 20 years younger. No way other teams have figured that out yet.
:)
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The funny thing is
That I posted something on defensive favoritism, got called on it, and was too lazy to research it. I was just going by memory.
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 9:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Also, the Cover-no-one-2 doesn't need good CBs....Herm said so
So why are our great Rookie CBs being touted as such assets?
(In all honesty, I love Flowers and Carr. They are perfect or the 90s Bump and Blitz Gunther D..if he was allowed to run it.)
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Even wilh Flowers out
we are running a lot less Cover 2 than we did last season…Carr is already better at man coverage than Surtain or Law, solely because of his ability to actually run next to the WR.
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 18, 2008 7:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Where is James Hasty and Dale Carter?
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 18, 2008 9:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Currently watching
one of our former picks, who was not good enough for that scheme playing in Buffalo, got 1 sack, I have not been paying close enough attention on total tackles though.
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 9:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Was thinking about posting on that
5 more and he ties our TEAM.
Also, the Eagles played like crap yesterday. They still had 2 more sacks in that 1 game than we have all freaking season.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Jim Johnson is aggressive.
I like watching the Eagles D.
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 9:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
While we are thinking of it
Didn’t a certain Scott Fujita play well on Sunday…for the Saints?
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep two linebackers,
Where is one spot on this D we need consistent help?:)
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We don't need help there
Gunther’s teaching them…remember?? LOL
by Joel Thorman on Nov 17, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If I did,well
Smack me and call me Susan!
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This Buffalo game is getting good!
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 10:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What are you talking about? Special teams are only a gimmick play. Ask Preifer.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 10:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Just think
We see that gimmick Sunday!
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 10:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
As Krumrie and Gun have shown, if you yell on D you are respected. As Herm as shown, if you are calm and the players like you, you can be the worst team in the NFL in a 2 year period and still have a job.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 10:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Are they scared of Gun
and Krumrie?
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 10:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently not. :)
They seem scared of the opposing O line.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 10:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I was speaking of the media's continual love of both their intesity.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 10:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Aah, thought maybe
they were too nervous to make plays!:)
by Eric Allen on Nov 17, 2008 10:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I really enjoyed this post DTR
I felt like we hadn’t neglected our defense, but to see all the picks together like that…Not good. So maybe we need to rethink if Herm and Kuharich are as good a judge of talent as i once thought. There is no doubt that coaching plays a big part in their development. It is no wonder that the offense suffered. Man we need a lot of work…
by TheQ on Nov 17, 2008 9:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, Q.
Between the horrible drafting and coaching (at every level) for nearly a decade, with the obvious early round focus on D, we can only surmise that we need a change in leadership (but I want to keep Price around to see what he may have as OC).
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 9:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Honestly
I think Gailey’s done a good enough job to keep his position. In fact, if Herm were to get fired and for some reason we couldn’t find another coach who wanted to work here it wouldn’t make me sad at all to see Gailey as our head coach with Price getting a shot at OC. Gailey was a decent head coach at Dallas.
But if Herm gets fired, then Carl’s probably getting fired too, so there’s no way we’re going to have trouble finding a good coach who wants to come here. We’ve got young talent, a supportive fan base and an owner who doesn’t micromanage. That’s a dream job in the NFL.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 10:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree again.
If Herm goes, I think Chan is gone too…if not Price, as well.
Price was one of the top OC candidates last season. I want to see what some new,young blood can do for us. Chan as HC and Price as OC I am cool with. The worst that can happen is less game management errors.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 10:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Although
If we end up with Cowher we may end up keeping Chan as well. They worked pretty well together in Pittsburgh and I think Cowher’s able to recognize that the offense Gailey installed seems to be a good fit for Thigpen’s abilities.
Chan as HC and Price as OC I am cool with. The worst that can happen is less game management errors.
I hear that. Herm’s simply a garbage football coach at running a game. His teams often look poorly prepared for each week’s opponent, his playcalling is suspect (especially in key moments) and he never holds himself accountable. Basically he sucks at all the important parts of his job. I’d take Chan Gailey over Herm as HC in a heartbeat.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 17, 2008 10:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Quick note DThomasReigns
Took out the updated in the title.
Gotta keep it clean for those SI.com news links!
Thanks man. Hell of a post.
by Chris Thorman on Nov 17, 2008 10:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
To clarify (I know most on AP know this) I r SI newb, not AP noob. Thanks, for the compliments, Chris.
by DThomasReigns on Nov 17, 2008 10:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
No apology necessary
It’s such a good post, I’d hate a tiny little thing not make it too as many people as possible.
by Chris Thorman on Nov 17, 2008 10:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Not to change the subject
But did anybody just see Dawson’s 56 yarder a minute ago? That is like hitting the sweet spot on your 3 iron! Awesome!
by TheQ on Nov 17, 2008 10:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
on the other hand
The FG attempt that followed was more like the way I play golf!
Blame my wife!
by sir eccles on Nov 18, 2008 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Blame on Vermeil...
He was a bust head coach in picking up draft picks…specially defensive players.
AD
by ali_djoo on Nov 18, 2008 4:19 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
I blame
Hank Stram for setting the bar impossibly high.
Blame my wife!
by sir eccles on Nov 18, 2008 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Who was Hank to get our hopes up by making us think that we can win consistently in this league? Kansas City is obviously cursed, even in a league built for parity, and that’s why Carl Peterson hasn’t been able to get his team to a Super Bowl in 19 tries. It’s Stram’s fault. Fricking Stram.
:)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You can't take a coach seriously
That would wear a sport coat and tie on the sidelines and use the word “matriculate” ;-)
Man I miss the ol’time tough coaches.
Bill Parcell’s: "You are what your record says you are."
by THE_TRUTH on Nov 18, 2008 9:06 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I think the "Stram era" players should storm Clark Hunts ofice (when he's in there)
and demand excellence out of this organization or get the hell out of town. He should let one of his sisters run the club since theres no where else to go but up.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Nov 18, 2008 9:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Fujita and Mitchell were
Dick’s picks. Thet seem to be starting on some decent teams….just sayin.
by Eric Allen on Nov 18, 2008 5:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Proof in the Pudding
This is undoubted statistical proof that Carl is a shitty GM, and Herm is a crappy HC. I think the only person who was a bigger screw up than these two would have to be Rich Kotite (spelling?) DTR, I know you’ve heard this before but awesome post dude.
by maverick1385 on Nov 18, 2008 6:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
You Spelled It Right
And I think Herm’s about the same caliber of coach as Rich Kotite.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 8:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"Those are 15 first day Defensive players. Even if we whiffed on 4 of them, that is still an ENTIRE starting defensive team in their prime"
We whiffed on more than four of them…we were crappy at defensive drafting during the Vermeil years, and your fine post shows this brilliantly.
Downing, Sims, Freeman, Battle, Siavii, and Fox all failed to eventually turn into starters (something that I think is a reasonable expectation of first-day draft picks)…the Downing, Sims, Freeman, Siavii hunt for a Defensive Tackle caused the biggest set back (in 4 years, we spent 4 first day picks on the SAME position, and acquired NOT ONE decent player)
Since 2005, every defensive player you listed, with the exception Morgan, is starting.
I see no reason to suspect that the defensive players we draft on the first day in 2009 and 2010 won’t be starting, so you may get your wish of an entire starting team of first day picks (with the exception of course, of Carr and Page)
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 18, 2008 7:51 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hali And Derrick Johnson Aren't Looking Particularly Good
Hali’s had a terrible season. Derrick Johnson’s on pace for his worst season (and he’s never broken the 100 tackle barrier, nor had more than 4.5 sacks in any season so he hasn’t been that great). Heck, Glenn Dorsey (a rookie) has as many sacks this season (1) as all of the other defensive linemen we’ve drafted in the last three years combined.
Right now I’ve got very little faith that any of the defensive players we’ve drafted except for the defensive backs are going to realize their potential under this coaching regime. Because the defensive backs are the only ones showing substantial progression.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And Just To Illustrate The Point
Since 2005, every defensive player you listed, with the exception Morgan, is starting.
They’re starting on the worst defense in the NFL. Just because the idiot coach writes your name into the lineup each week does not necessarily mean that you’re able to perform at the level of an NFL starter. Right now very few of those defensive starters we drafted at performing at an NFL level.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say they were good
I said they were starting, and that may lead to this…
“so you may get your wish of an entire starting team of first day picks”
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 18, 2008 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Gunther?
When does Gunther take some responsibility for our lack of production on “D”. I have seem nothing he has done with our picks. It appears we are set at corner and safety, but linebacker and OL are still a mystery. Gunther is the DC and linebacker coach. We have DJ. Edwards is shall I say washed up. Develop some of these other LB’s or fid some that can play.##
Jerome
by easyjb on Nov 18, 2008 9:47 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
The GM is responsible for the draft
I’m sure Peterson blames Vermeil for the crappy drafts and wants everyone else to do so as well, but he’s the one responsible. He’s the GM.
There’s no accountability with him though. He can waste pick after pick for decades but nothing happens, the blame just shifts to someone else who is already gone. Peterson’s track record in drafting has been horrible for a decade at least. How does a team get to be so bad that they lose 21 of 22 games? Horrible personnel decisions over a long period of time. If the person responsible for those decisions is still making the decisions, how can we have hope for things getting better going forward?
Thats the key, we need a new decision maker so we can have more hope going forward.
by Offense of the 70s on Nov 18, 2008 9:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
That’s the point most of the Carl critics have been making…leaving the same guy in charge who broke the team in the first place isn’t rebuilding. It’s just repeating the same behavior and foolishly expecting different results.
And that’s the thing that the people who want to keep Herm and Carl miss…even if this plan “works out” as Herm and Carl envision, the odds are that the Chiefs will still never get close to winning a Super Bowl. Know why? Because Carl hasn’t built a team capable of reaching a Super Bowl in 19 years on the job and Herm’s never been more than a wild-card seed in the playoffs (because he can’t win his division). There’s nothing in their resumes to indicate that they have any clue of how to build a championship team. My suspicion is that even if Clark Hunt lets Herm and Carl see their plan through the best we can hope for is a team that can maybe win the AFC West some years (no tall feat, since the division stinks) and maybe win a (emphasis on "a") playoff game every few years. In other words, the plan is at best merely going to continue the mediocrity.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 10:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that the GM is responsible for the draft
and given his lack of success, I could see Peterson heading out.
But I think that, despite all of his horrible attributes, Herm is good at the draft. That is why I could settle for Peterson getting ousted and retaining Herm for a few more seasons.
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 18, 2008 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Okay With Herm Staying
As long as he gets a GM in charge of him who has no ingrained loyalty to him (i.e. Peterson or any of his current front office crew). Let Herm coach for his job to continue his employment here…same as everyone else in the league. If he can succeed at that, fine. I’m just sick of watching him fumble his way through the season, blame everyone but himself for his team’s failures, and keep his job because nobody cares about results.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
"because nobody cares about results"
careful…the “content with losing” straw man is rearing his ugly head…=)
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 18, 2008 12:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Meant In Reference To The Front Office In This Context
Sorry, but when the GM has been in charge for 19 years and hasn’t won a playoff game for 14 then the front office (most specifically ownership) is clearly content with losing.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 1:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Need to make the D fit the personel we have
I think our problems stem from two areas that will kill draft picks abilities.
First is talent evaluation – during the Vermeil era we were very bad at drafting defensive players that actually produced, the exception is the LBs we found 2 out of 3 that we drafted that are solid if not above average LBs (Kawika, DJ) and Fox was a good back up for several years.
Second problem is D system – During the time that we are looking at with these players we had 2 different head coaches with different ideas on D, two different DC with different ideas on D. So when Gun first came back he was not even allowed to pick his defensive staff, then the new head coach will not let him pick his own style of D system. So during this stretch we have had 3 different defensive systems that we have run and every time we change the players we have suddenly don’t fit the type of D we now run, Kawika is a prime example of this.
So not only do we need to get good players but we have got to get a D that fits the players and stop trying to force players to change and play a D they are not suited for. Part of Dorsey’s slow start is that he is not playing the same position he played in college (2 gap DT compaired to a 1 gap DT) and that has made him come along slower than he would have otherwise.
by tevans96 on Nov 18, 2008 10:42 AM CST reply actions 0 recs
Why did we do that?
I thought the strength of Dorsey’s game was getting into the backfield…why aren’t we putting Tank at RDT (1 gap in our system) and letting Dorsey wreak havoc from the 2-gap? I think it might have something to do with our ineffectiveness at RDE, but I’m not sure.
Could someone with more D-line knowledge weigh in?
Danke…
by PVChiefsfan on Nov 18, 2008 10:54 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs
lay off Herm
look at it this way:
number of defensive players on team drafted by Vermeil -2
number of defensive players on team drafted by Herm -7
number of playmakers drafted by Vermeil -1
number of playmakers drafted by Herm -6
Now these numbers are just on day one, but Herm has been here almost half the time that Vermeil was and I can’t find 6 playmakers drafted by Vermeil in all of his drafts including all rounds.This does not include any of Herm’s playmakers drafted later or still developing.
by ajflow on Nov 18, 2008 3:25 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I Won't Lay Off Herm
Most of the players drafted by Herm aren’t even through their first contract…and outside of the defensive backs I don’t see any of the players Herm drafted going to a Pro Bowl any time soon.
Tamba Hali – 1 sack, playing like a bust this year
Glenn Dorsey – 1 sack, decent performance for a rookies, but possibly a bad fit for the defense Herm is running
Tank Tyler – zero sacks, DT on one of the worst run defenses in the league
Turk McBride – zero sacks (and he’s the pass-rushing end)
Brian Johnston – zero sacks
Four of those guys are first-day draft picks…three of them are vets who are getting outplayed by a rookie who’s not performing like a Pro Bowler this season. The only reasons they’re still on the roster are a) they haven’t finished out their first contract yet and b) there’s nobody better available to replace them. All Herm’s shown is that he can find defensive back talent, which doesn’t do us a hell of a lot of good when your team is going to give up almost 3,000 yards rushing this season. All Herm’s cut out to be is a scout (for defensive backs only) or a DB coach…he’s a suck-ass head coach and I’ll continue to point it out until he proves otherwise.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Nov 18, 2008 4:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
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