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What Croyle knows is this: once the bye week is over, he has 11 weeks to show he’s the quarterback of the future for the Chiefs. He cannot miss any more time. He cannot go out and turn the ball over. He cannot be inefficient in leading the offense.

If this is Croyle’s time and his place, then the next 11 games will provide the evidence. If not, then the Chiefs have to go back to the drawing board. Whether it’s a veteran or someone they select in the 2009 NFL Draft, they must start from scratch at the position. Damon Huard is not the future. Tyler Thigpen has not shown enough in his limited playing time to think he’s the long-term answer.

It’s Brodie or bust, and Brodie knows that.

Link 9 months ago Ajax_tiny ChiefDJ Comment 41 comments 1 recs |

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Even though I know it's coming

I hate the words “back to the drawing board.”

by primetime 07 on Oct 8, 2008 5:17 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Will Herm be

running that drawing board? Oh lord help us.

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 5:18 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Another good quote at the end of this article

“It must come together for Croyle to have a chance. He alone is not going to cure the offensive blues. If the right side of his offensive line doesn’t play any better than it did against Carolina, then there will be no Brodie, just bust, or more likely another busted Brodie. All Croyle can do is get back on the field and try to make a difference.”

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 5:19 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Now we have hashed this out

Time and time again. After this non-adjusting by Herm, do you DJ still feel comfortable with Herm as our HC?

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 5:23 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Yes

We said at the beginning of the season we were probably going to be 4-12 again because of the youth movment. Just because what we thought was going to happen is actually happening doesn’t change my opinion, especially not after only five games.

We have a young team + subpar hole fillers, a new offensive coordinator that just met these players a couple months ago and is still learning what they can do, and the QB that they had built the offense around went down with an injury in the first game of the season.

This team is a building project and throwing a fit now is like walking onto the construction site of a house right after they lay the foundation and being mad that all those ugly plumbing pipes are sticking out of the concrete.

They just finished demolition over this past offseason, its not surprising that things look ugly at the beginning as they start to build.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 5:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So

Do you want to take that $100 bet I offered earlier? I’m feeling pretty lucky about my prediction. :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 5:36 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Frankly Crawford, I don't really care much what you think

I do not flip flop in my convictions and beliefs because of emotions. I do not base my observations on personal grudges I have against coaches, players or GMs. I see things for how they are. Some things you can blame on coaching, many other things you can’t if you’re at all intellectually honest.

I’m comfortable that if the Chiefs stay on the plan they set out this offseason, that they will be a competitive team in years to come.

Is Herm Edwards a coach that can win in the playoffs? Well, he’s done it before. Can he win a Super Bowl? I don’t know and at this point, I don’t really care. What I am concerned about right now is that this team stay on the path they are now of rebuilding the right way that will lead to long term success and not giving up every time they get blown out by a superior team while they are rebuilding.

Is Herm the coach that can take us to the Super Bowl? Maybe, maybe not. But I DO think he is the right coach to rebuild this team and that’s all that matters right now.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 5:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just like he did

To the Jets when he started tinkering with their roster. Pacells guys, playoffs, Herm guys done.

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 5:51 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Bet

Was actually that he’d never take this team to the playoffs…I wouldn’t bet money on any coach’s ability to win a Super Bowl because luck plays such a huge role in that (just ask Marty).

$10?

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 6:00 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If I was a betting man, I would have no problem accepting that

Unfortunately religious obligations permit me from taking part in gambling.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 6:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fair Enough

I didn’t realize…if I offended by offering it, I apologize.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 7:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And sorry about what I said above

About not caring what you think. That’s really not true and I didn’t mean it the way it sounded. You’re a valuable contributor to the site, even if I think you’re going way overboard. :)

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 6:36 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No Worries

I suspect that you and I are going to butt heads a lot this year because of our fundamental outlooks on this team…you’re an optimist, I’m a skeptic. After our last blowup a couple of weeks ago I decided that it was inevitable we were going to clash so I resolved not to take it personally and I hope you don’t take my comments personally either. Like I said, I’m very blunt in my observations but they’re not intended to target you.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 7:04 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I haven't felt targeted, and honestly wouldn't care if I was

This is only a blog after all. :)

It gets under my skin a little when everythings laid in the lap of one guy (ok, two) while other circumstances are completely ignored, but thats your opinion and you’re entitled to it.

I’m very patient and while most fans have believed we were “one good player away” from being a Super Bowl contending team since Schottenheimer came to town, for about the last 8 or 9 years I have seen that the Chiefs were hopelessly spiraling downward and badly needed to be rebuilt. At the same time, I knew Peterson knew what he was talking about that Chiefs fans couldn’t stomach the horrors of a rebuild.

When Vermeil came to town, I saw it for what it was. An all out push mortgaging the future to win within a couple years. At that time most people were more than willing to take that gamble and enjoyed the run while it lasted, but everyone HAD to know that what we are seeing now was the inevitable result of that. Trading away high draft picks for players with a couple years left in them and then drafting very poorly with the picks they had remaining. It was fun while it lasted, but was NOT a recipe for future success.

I don’t really put much stock into or care that much about Herm as a coach because right now, we don’t need a tactically brilliant head coach (Although that doesn’t mean that if I see someone picking on a guy unjustly about his past record I won’t stand up to it to make sure all the information is accurate). We are a team that is essentially starting over completely from scratch, which is something that I can’t think of a whole lot of teams in the last 20 years having to do, so it doesn’t surprise me a whole lot that they are struggling.

I don’t think that was the plan when Herm came to town, I think he had hoped to ease into it, but circumstances (Willie Roaf and Will Shields retiring, Trent Green getting knocked out and then freaking out about even the possibility of having to compete with a younger guy for a job, Peterson being unable to sign Jared Allen, etc) didn’t allow it.

So you have a guy that is generaly a pretty good motivator that the players like to play for, but probably a pretty average coach inheriting a team that crumbled within a year of his taking over through no fault of his own. There are so many holes on the team that we are stuck playing an undrafted free agent at the most important position on the defense and retreads on the offensive line because they can’t bring in quality guys fast enough.

Personally I can see all the variables that have led up to the Chiefs being this bad and it doesn’t surprise me. It is a result of decisions that were made years before Herm came to town.

Maybe a better coach could get more out of the players we have on the squad now. But there is no guarantee that we would have the quality of players we have begun to collect. Vermeil was a good coach, but a horrible judge of college talent and the same can be said for many coaches in the NFL. So right now, I’m content to keep Herm around to bring talent in. Once the team is stocked with talent if its determined we need a new coach to take that talent to the next level, I have no problem with that.

But just like I’m not willing to give up on Croyle because he played badly when surrounded by a bad team, I’m not giving up on Herm for the exact same reason.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 7:28 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My Position Comes From Watching Trends

Any major pro sport you care to name is basically a burnout factory for coaches and front office. The level of competition is so high that people have to sacrifice their personal lives and their health for the ability to gain even a small edge over their competitors to win…and consequently the stress level is unreal. Most head coaches you’re going to see in the NFL will have the most success within the first ten years of their career, after which you’ll generally see them decline quickly (it happens with GMs too, but that’s another thread).

Don Shula, Jimmy Johnson, Vince Lombardi, Tom Landry…you’re even seeing it now with Andy Reid and Jon Gruden…these guys hit their peak within the first five or six years of their head coaching careers, maintained it for varying periods of time, then dropped off fast and faded as either the NFL adapted to what they were doing or the game simply passed them by. But the common thread is that they showed what they were capable of within a 5-6 year window and once the decline set in they never achieved that peak level again.

Herm’s five year window was with the Jets. He inherited a talented team from Al Groh and proceeded to win no division titles and never advanced to the second round of the playoffs. By his final year with the Jets they were one of the worst teams in the league. Criticisms of him revolved around his gameplanning skills, playcalling, clock management, lineups and ability to motivate his players. Then he comes to the Chiefs. He takes a fairly talented (albeit aging) team in his first year and makes the playoffs on the last day of the season (despite losing the game he needed to clinch) when two other teams choked. The second year he took the team to a 4-12 record, which was partially explained by the talent degradation but the team was also plagued by the same issues that seemed to plague his Jets team (questionable clock management, questionable playcalling, questionable game preparation, questionable coaching skills). Now he’s in his third year, the team brought in an infusion of younger supposedly more talented players and the team’s looking like it could go 1-15 and get blown out in half the games due to the same problems that were an issue in 2007 and with the Jets…questionable gameplan, questionable coaching, questionable lineups, questionable playcalling, etc.

We’re eight years into Herm Edwards’ career as a head coach and the most he’s ever achieved is presiding over the decline of two different teams. He’s never reached an AFC Championship. He’s never demonstrated much creativity with his game plans. His lineups don’t follow any sort of rhyme or reason and often they seem to be a large part of the reason his teams struggle. Like I said, most coaches will show you who they are capable of within the first five or six years of their career. Herm’s in his 8th year and I’d say he’s shown us what he is…a coach with questionable skills who probably shouldn’t be entrusted with running a youth movement. And history shows that this probably isn’t going to get better with time. He just is who Jets fans said he was…a coach who probably deserved to get fired.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 8:01 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   1 recs

Trends

The thing about trends is they are just that. They are averages. They don’t apply to everybody.

Bill Bellichick had seasons of 6-10, 6-10, 7-9, 11-5 and 5-11 with the Cleveland Browns. He then took over the Patriots, went 5-11 his first season there, then he found Tom Brady and the rest is history.

Sometimes it takes coaches time to grow. Sometimes it takes the right combination of coach with the right players.

We’ve been over Herms tenure with the Jets over and over. You choose to focus on the bad seasons (including the one where they had 18 players on Injured Reserve, including 11 starters and the starting and second string QBs). You continue to bring up that they never won a division championship, ignoring that they are in the same division as the Patriots when they won the Super Bowl three of those five years. Regardless, Herms Jets made it to the playoffs three out of five years and they DID get to the second round of the playoffs… twice, in 2002 and 2004.

And if you recall, the Chiefs DID win the final game of the year

Most of what you say about Herm is based on how you choose to interpret the stats. Personally I put zero stock in the opinions of the New York media. Look how that worked out with Joe Torre and the Yankees. Yet you seem to have drawn a LOT of your opinion of Herm from the media there. I find that interesting.

Regardless of Herms flaws as a coach, he HAS had succesful seasons. He HAS taken his teams to the playoffs. He HAS won playoff games. So you cannot sit there with a straight face and tell me this is all on Herm because if it really was all on Herm, he would never have been succesful at all.

The team is rebuilding, the overall talent level of the team right now is low because of decisions made prior to his arrival. The talent we DO have on the team is largely inexperienced and raw and is going to take time to develop. That is a fact whether Herm Edwards is the coach or Bill Cowher or Bill Bellichick is the coach.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 8:35 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

New York Media
Personally I put zero stock in the opinions of the New York media. Look how that worked out with Joe Torre and the Yankees.

They are the ones who cover the New York teams, and Herm coached for one of the New York teams (even though it’s actually in New Jersey). And I listen to what they have to say because very often they’re right. They were right about Torre and the Yankees…that team coasted on its success for years, and despite having the highest payroll in the league they haven’t won a title in 8 years.

Like I said, they’re jackals who often focus on pointless crap, but they hold people accountable for when they don’t perform. I respect that.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 8:43 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Torre

And yet, Torre was blamed for the Yankees not winning because of all those reasons you mention, but was he really the problem?

They fire Torre and the Yankees promptly go third in their division. Meanwhile, Torre takes the Dodgers to the playoffs his first year there.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 8:50 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I Don't Think He Was Necessarily The Problem

But I also don’t think he was part of the solution either. I mean what’s he done in L.A. so far? Qualified for the playoffs in the weakest division in the NL after his team traded for Manny Ramirez? He went into the playoffs with the 8th best record in the league and the Cubs choked because their pitching staff went tits up in a short series. Let’s see him make it through the next round…then I’ll give him some credit for being a great manager in L.A..

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 8:58 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Look Who's Talking :)

It’s probably Dick Vermeil’s fault that Joe Torre’s team had the 8th best record in the NL.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 8, 2008 10:39 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My Vermeil comments are simply fact

Horrible drafting and all the players he brought in that were great players either retired or were washed up within a year after he left.

He built a great team for the window he was targetting, but there is no question it is the #1 reason we are in the situation we are in now.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 9, 2008 5:08 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The same media that was calling for the Giants

 to can their coach and bench their QB well into last year.

by NJChiefsFan on Oct 9, 2008 5:30 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The Way They Played The First Four Games

It wasn’t unreasonable at the time. Journalists aren’t supposed to take things on faith.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 9, 2008 6:30 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Journalists report.

Pundits call for heads, and in this case they turned out to be wrong.

by NJChiefsFan on Oct 9, 2008 8:32 AM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It is essential to develop a strategy/vision and stay with it

I have been a Chiefs fan since the early days at Municiple Stadium. Those early teams were great and colorful. Back then Steadman and Stram ran the show and they loved their players so much that they refused to keep adding new blood and the same thing happened to them that we are faced with now. In fact I’m not sure we ever really recovered from that philosophy. Clearly to clean house is going to take a couple of years of pain and sacrifice for the team and the long suffering fans. I believe it is impossible to judge the coaching staffs abilities until we see at least 1 more full season with the young talent. Look at Denver as an example. I do not think many would say Shanahan is a bad coach but he has struggled to replace Elway and even with all the hype it’s not clear Cutler is the answer. Also, I know there have been many in KC who hate Carl Petersen much like I was distraught with Steadman’s decisions before him, but I think most football management people would grade Carl’s personell decisions as good. We will see how it all pans out but Jared Alleyn hasn’t done that much with the Vikings and everybody thought the Chiefs draft was a good one.

by woodwrkrz on Oct 10, 2008 4:29 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wow.. Look at the other

Young teams in the league. My god we got thumped by one in Atlanta, with a rookie coach. He will not adjust, even though he has a better young player in Herb Taylor. He acknowledges the problems on the right side, yet will do nothing about them.

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 5:40 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And where do the four wins come from?

Where on the schedule, do you see a team we can beat? I can accept losses, I cannot accept losses with no attempt to adjust.

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 5:42 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just because the people that get paid to coach in the NFL for a living

don’t accept your armchair QBing doesn’t mean they aren’t adjusting.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 8, 2008 5:43 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

What is he doing

Sac you have got to block better, or I will stick with you all season! You know like I did with Kyle Turley, Chris Terry last season. Seriously are you Herm? Only Herm himself cannot see the bullshit he puts on the field weekly, it is all about getting young, but I am sticking with this 31 year- old never was! Oooh and I am bringing in another never was in Adrian Jones!

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 5:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

And that is bad

That he accepts a paycheck for the crap that has not changed since the playoff LOSS in 06.

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 6:48 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

We don't know

that they aren’t out looking for help. It’s only week 5 and that’s not something you put out to the media. The Taylor experiment will last until Albert comes back and if at that time he’s a better option for the right side – I’d bet Herm will start him there. I think we know that Albert is going to be a player for us (health aside) and it blows that he’s hurt – but the positive in this is the game time that Taylor is going to get over the next few weeks.

by HankerChief on Oct 8, 2008 7:24 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I know I is tempting to put this all in Herm's lap....

But it is not Herm’s fault that Vermeil and Peterson NEVER did anything to address the aging O-Line (Shields and Roaf nearing retirement), WR corps (Kennison and Morton), and Secondary (Jerome Woods). Vermeil and Peterson knew that the LB’s were woefully inadequate yet the only thing they did to address it was draft Derrick Johnson and sign Kendrell Bell. I think Herm got the dirty end of the stick in terms of personnel. Yeah he had made some questionable moves and playcalls at one time or another but you show me one coach who hasn’t made mistakes and I show you a time when Kendrell Bell made a positive impact on our defense. Let assign blame where blame is due. Our current state is not totally Herm’s fault.

by ill_spec on Oct 8, 2008 6:58 PM CDT reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But not willing to

Adapt to overcome is. We have seen that he will not adjust in game, getting players ready to play is on him. Can you honestly say that you have seen this team make in game adjustments with Herm as our coach?

by Eric Allen on Oct 8, 2008 7:47 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heck yes, man!

didn’t you see us run the no-huddle when we were down by 20+ points?

i hope that gave herm a migrane…playing that arena style of football…

by thehulk on Oct 8, 2008 8:10 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

All but a handfull of coaches

When there is a coaching change they are almost always left with a failing team that has problems all over the field. So I don’t buy the argument that this is all on Vermeil, he had a different coaching philosophy and it worked for him, the last year he was here we went 10-6. And most coaches that end up doing anything will turn the team around in the first couple of years, or at least show major progress.

10 or 15 years ago it would take 3 or more years to turn around a team. Now unless your team is run poorly it usually takes less than 3 years to go from the bottom to the top of your division.

by tevans96 on Oct 9, 2008 2:34 PM CDT to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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