How Does This Get Turned Around?
by ChiefDJ on Oct 19, 2008 11:49 PM CDT
52 comments
The Chiefs are bad. Very bad. They may not have the worst record in the NFL, but I don't think its a stretch to say they could be the worst team in the NFL currently. There is no question we are all very frustrated with the horrendous performances we are seeing.
But let's have an intellectually honest discussion here. Why are we this bad and how can we get things turned around?
First off, I think we sometimes forget just how young our team is. And not just young, but how stretched we are for talent on the team overall.
We have 16 rookies on the roster (30% of roster), 9 second year players (17% of roster), and 9 third year players (17% of roster). That is 34 players on the 53 man roster that are three years or less (64% of the roster).
Also note that on the Chiefs, 18 of those players (or 33% of the roster) that have been in the league three years or less are either 6th round, 7th round or undrafted players that on many teams wouldn't even make the final roster.
****************************************************************************************
With the above data in mind, let's break down the main problems this team is facing.
1) Offense cannot move the ball, much less score points.
2) Lack of Pass Rush.
3) Cannot stop the run.
Offense
No matter how strongly the coaches thought Croyle could be a good NFL QB, that ship has sailed. A QB that some said had Joe Montana qualities does no one any good in a cast on the sideline. Croyle should pretty much be forgotten about.
That leave a 13 year old career backup that gets beat up easily and is inconsistent from game to game, and a 7th round pick with a 44% completion rate that tends to hit the defenders in the hands more often than his own players.
Call me crazy, but neither of those options at the most important position on the offense sound like a recipe for success. The continuing problems on the offensive line not being able to block the run or block a simple screen pass do not help this. The combination of the two gives us what we have seen from the Chiefs offense this season. Absolutely horrid.
Solution: Get a new QB, continue to develop O-line.
Pass Rush
We knew the pass rush was going to be a problem when Jared Allen was traded. What we didn't expect was for Tamba Hali to completely disappear. Some of the absence of sacks could be attributed to the fact that other teams are able to run so prolifically on the Chiefs so there is less need to pass and thus fewer opportunities for sacks, but the pass rush remains clearly lacking.
Solution: Sign a free agent or draft pass rushing DE.
Run Defense
This one is a lot tougher to figure out. According to Herm , the primary problem is the defense not playing the gaps properly. Is it a problem with just one linebacker or all of them? Pat Thomas is playing MLB, the most important position on the defense and is a 4th year undrafted player. Is he the weak link or is there something more? How much of the problems with the run defense can be attributed to young Defensive linemen? I may be wrong on this, but my perception is that we are getting beaten on off-tackle runs rather than up the gut runs, if that is the case, the problem is less Dorsey and Tank and more the DEs and LBs.
Solution: Get young players experience, sign free agent or draft MLB, other LBs.
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Many have expressed the strong opinion that the problem is coaching. While that may have something to do with some areas, the Head Coach and both Coordinators have been succesful coaches for years in the NFL. It seems unlikely that they would just suddenly forget how, no matter how much you dislike them.
For the sake of argument (and since we talk all the time about the coaches), lets just take Clark Hunt for his word and assume Herm Edwards and at least Chan Gailey (since he was just hired) if not Gun as well will likely be back next year.
So if the primary problems are a combination of youth, overall low level of talent (we have lots of very talented players, but the ones that aren't extremely promising are at the low end of the talent pool) and the problems mentioned above, what can be done?
Many of the problems that involve youth will only get better with the passage of time. Many of the problems that involve low talent will only improve with another draft or offseason free agent signings.
What moves do the Chiefs need to look at making to right the ship during the season, and what moves should we be looking at during the offseason? It looks like the Chiefs have taken one suggestion from the fans and begun playing Herb Taylor at RT in place of McIntosh. What else?
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Green Bay Comparison
Talking about the youth on the team, I looked up some info for Green Bay as well:
Green Bay has 9 rookies (17% of roster), 10 second year players (19% of roster) and 15 third year players (28% of roster). That is also 34 players on the 53 man roster that are three years or less (64% of roster).
Note how the youth on both teams is weighted. While the bulk of the Chiefs young players are rookies, the bulk of Green Bays are in their third year, the year most experts agree is when they will really hit their peak.
by ChiefDJ on Oct 19, 2008 11:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The also have
Good veteran players who produce regularly.
by cmpotter on Oct 20, 2008 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
improvement
while I wish you would at some point admit that there are some deep seated problems that have been abject failures by the coaching staff, I’ll play ball.
Bring in the best offensive linemen in free agency next year. If there’s not one, there’s not one. Here’s the list: http://www.footballsfuture.com/2009/fa/ol.html
We need to stockpile picks. Tons of them. I’d prefer to trade pieces for lower rounders, then package them together to move up as much as possible.
Quarterback we should really pursue a free agent or trade. Herm wants a guy who first and foremost doesn’t turn the ball over, even at the expense of playmaking ability. The league is full of those. People tend to prefer playmaking ability over obsessive control. But since that’s what Herm wants, if we’re going with it, we can find one.
Defensive line is rough. Most free agents want a contender. But if we can throw enough money we might be able to get one to bite. Even one would change things enough to give the rest of the line an edge.
Run defense: coach better. That’s all I’ve got.
We’ll see what happens and whether you’re right and they’re just beautiful roses waiting to bloom or if they are in fact, a bad football team being badly developed by bad coaching.
Who knows, really?
God this weekend sucked.
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by Ridiculous Matt on Oct 20, 2008 12:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Most free agents
Want money. Lots of it.
by cmpotter on Oct 20, 2008 1:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt
At this point I’m not discounting anything. But in my opinion, coaching cannot be the biggest problem. All of these guys have succesfully coached in the NFL before. Regardless, if Clark sticks with what he has said, whether we like it or not we’re probably stuck where we’re at regarding coaching and there are 10 fanposts a day giving anal exams to the coaches and I would prefer to focus on the OTHER problems right now that could possibly be.
by ChiefDJ on Oct 20, 2008 6:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clark cannot stick with his statements
if his team goes 1-15 and loses every game in the 1st quarter. No good, proven or experienced coach allows that to happen. Herm’s ways are outdated and every coach now knows how to beat him. Put 8 on the line in the first half, run offensive plays that work against the cover 2, and play a physical game.
Herm Edwards is a retard.
by CBaller13 on Oct 20, 2008 8:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dick Curl has been a successful NFL coach?
where?
The O-line coach has been a success? where?
Wideouts? Where?
Secondary? Where?
Special teams? Where?
by sm7600 on Oct 20, 2008 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't Forget Krumrie
Who is coaching over a defensive line that has gotten zero sacks and just gave up a record amount of rushing yards.
I’m beginning to see why Pete Carroll was so annoyed with him for running that drill on his defensive linemen during pre-draft workouts. Krumrie apparently knows nothing about evaluating talent or getting the most out of it, so why should Carroll stand by while Krumrie slaps his players around? After all, Carroll was a fairly successful defensive coordinator in the NFL, so it’s not like he’s unfamiliar with how to evaluate player talent.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DJ I'm trying
I keep trying to find a way where this isn’t coaching. I hear what you’re saying. I know there are a million other threads for GM and coaching discussion. But I cant’ get past yesterday without looking at coaching. If it was a few missed plays that are indicative of a young team, okay. But we were unprepared to play yesterday. Gap management and angle technique are both coaching areas as is offensive game planning. Those areas failed. I’m not absolving the players, Deej, I’m saying there’s a massive, system wide failure in all areas. I’m pretty sure the hotdogs vendors fucked up yesterday.
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by Ridiculous Matt on Oct 20, 2008 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
We need to
“run it up Niswangers butt”
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
"We Must Establish The Running Game"
“Do you know nothing, Gunther?”
:)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Except
That Rhonda in that case would probably be DJ…she was the one who yelled that Gunther’s blitz scheme would make us victorious.
Not sure who I would have been in that film if the entire movie were a Chiefs parody. Speer maybe because he knew what was really going on…but then he also didn’t really share his opinions on it with Hitler and that definitely wouldn’t have been my approach.
Then again, Carl Peterson wouldn’t put a bullet into peoples’ heads for disagreeing with him, so he’s not really Hitler. :)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't want to even think about...
…who in the organization would have been Eva Braun….bleeeech!
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clark Hunt
“Oh King Carl…you always fill my stadium full.”
:)
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You deserve a lot of credit Matt
I very well remember that you were last years Crawford. I know very well how strongly you feel about Herm and Carl, but I also see that you have become much more objective about things and are willing to see beyond the easiest targets on the team (coach and GM) and also look at the other probems.
If they fire Herm Edwards and Carl Peterson tomorrow and the Chiefs go 10-0 the rest of the season, NO ONE will be happier than I am. I want what is best for the team and my opinion is that we will get better faster if we stay on course instead of firing guys left and right whenever the fans get pissy about losing or about things that have happened years ago.
I don’t blame anyone for being depressed, there is literally nothing happening to get excited about. But we are in the same boat we were in last year. Lots of holes on the team, several players not living up to what we were hoping they would and no way to fix them until the next offseason. That is depressing, but there is also nothing to be done about it.
by ChiefDJ on Oct 20, 2008 5:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who put the players here?
The same guy that you give credit to for being such a good talent scout. The same guy responsible for teaching and preparing these guys.
by Eric Allen on Oct 20, 2008 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eric
They have brought in a lot of good players. But when you’re losing players faster than you can bring them in and get them playing at a high level, you get what we have now.
We’ve been over this a million times and I’m not going to go over it again. If Clark decides Herm is going to stay, we’ll see in another year or two if it works out or not. If he doesn’t and he fires him and hires your dream coach and he goes through the exact same thing, then that will be an answer too.
I almost wish they would fire Herm and Carl and bring in whoever your favorite coach/GM combo is so that we can see them struggle with it too just to hear you defending them by saying “They need more time! There are a lot of holes on this team!”. I will laugh my ass off when that happens.
by ChiefDJ on Oct 20, 2008 8:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good I am glad you will
laugh your ass off! Herm is a joke, this team has steadily gone backwards. Constantly losing players? Jared Allen, traded him for picks for this re-building plan. Who else have we lost? Johnson, cancer needs to go anyway. Brodie, been hurt more than he has been here, to bad what happened to him, his frame just will not take it. O-line retirements, had plenty of time to replace those guys, nope went defense instead. What else have you got?
by Eric Allen on Oct 20, 2008 9:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh and what happens
If they fire Herm, bring in a new coach, the players suddenly start to get it? Will you laugh then?
by Eric Allen on Oct 20, 2008 9:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No don't fire the coach or GM
..It didn’t help St. Louis…they still lost. Uh, nevermind they beat Wash and Dallas.
It didn’t help Oakland…they still lost. Uh, nevermind they beat the Jets in OT and are looking more like a team then I’ve seen them in a long time.
49ers have had a worse record then us and let go of Nolan. Uh, nevermind, they won 2 games so far. 1 more then us.
Nevermind, my argument is unsupported.
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 21, 2008 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
That was good
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Oct 21, 2008 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
DJ
the other things that have happened have also changed my position. Trust me, if it was just Pat Williams missing assignments, Tamba Hali underperforming, and our line being terrible, I’d be pretty chill.
We’ve taken a tentative line with LJ. We can’t condone his actions or protect him, but they know we need him. We should have suspended him two weeks ago from how it sounds. We still have not taken any actions as if we’re waiting for the league to do it for us. But you know what? We owe it to the organization to take action.
They screwed Tony. They just did. You can say screwing him was the right move if you want, but screwing him is screwing him and when you start to lose integrity, you start to lose your right to a position of power.
The team has quit on him, and he doesn’t know how to get it back. These are players he brought in. Even if they’re terrible players, they shouldn’t have quit on him. They should be terrified of quitting on him. They should want to go out there every week and play for him. But they’re just picking up paychecks.
My problem is that I feel like even the rebuilding personnel has been flawed (LB, QB), and that steps haven’t been taken to accomodate for the line’s deficiencies (screen plays, off tackle runs), and that there’s an emotional disconnect on this team that is frightening. Combine that with the questionable way business has been handled, and I’m fed up.
I still don’t think we should fire anyone tomorrow. But there needs to be someone, anyone, from Carl to Herm to Hunt, to step up and say “There’s got to be some responsibility here.”
Herm would do himself a million points in my book by saying, simply, “I haven’t done a good job this year. We have to do better.” It may not be enough, but it would be better than hanging his players out to dry. You’re not going to win points with me on that. It’s fine for you or I to say “Herm coached well, it was the players.” But coaches never shirk blame.
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by Ridiculous Matt on Oct 21, 2008 12:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coaching.
Logic implies that we wouldn’t have a problem on this team with coaching considering past experience, but we clearly do.
It has been six games and the linebackers on this team have no earthly idea how to fill a gap.
It has been six games and the wide receivers have yet to seriously even try to block anybody.
It has been six games and our special teams continues to be uniformly awful.
There are a handful of pure indicators that this team is poorly coached, these are just three.
We are talent starved, sure. That will correct itself in time. But the coaching on this team is among the worst it’s ever been, and I don’t say that lightly.
by Direckshun on Oct 20, 2008 12:14 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey...
Savage seems to be doing well in kick returning. Give him his due on the the special teams analysis. Dustin Colquitt for the PRO BOWL!!!! YEAH!!!!
by chiefsfan1384 on Oct 20, 2008 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Offense positional break down
I think the team needs to evaluate every position right now and make changes this year (TY) and next year (NY). The following is what I would do from what I have seen so far this year to try and correct the problems facing this team.
QB – TY: get more bodies for the meat grinder that is our offense – NY: we need to be Tampa Bay and bring in 4-6 QBs (at least 1 draft, 1 FA and the rest where ever) then let the best man win even if he is an undrafted rookie.
RB – TY: stand pat – NY: if LJ is still a problem dump him somehow and use the in house talent (I still feel this is the deepest position on the team)
TE – TY: stand pat – NY: if Tony returns then fine, if not look for more depth
WR1 – nothing Bowe is a potential star in the NFL
WR2 – TY/NY – stand pat (too many other holes on a team that can’t even throw to the #1 WR so who needs a #2 until QB and line are fixed)
LT – TY: stand pat – NY: if top player in the draft is a LT then draft him if not then stand pat (I have no problem with Albert but I subscribe to the large planet theory – there are a limited number of top flight big men on the planet so if you can get one take him – we have so many holes on the line and if the rookie is better, then Albert can always be a star at another spot on the line)
LG – TY: stand pat – NY: start looking for a successor for Waters
C – TY: stand pat – NY: stand pat (this is the biggest question mark for me, I can’t tell if it is Jones or Niswanger that is the problem in the middle, but if we can upgrade the RG this year we should know more about Niswanger by next year)
RG – TY: move McIntosh inside – NY: priority find a replacement (McIntosh needs to move out of RT but he might be better at Guard which he has played in the past in the NFL but next year this position is the top priority on the line)
RT – TY: move McIntosh inside and start Taylor – NY: I feel that Taylor is actually our answer for this position (if we drafted another tackle in the first round next year I would look to move Taylor to Guard)
K – TY: bring back Barth at least he was young – NY: hopefully bringing in Barth will have fixed this
by tevans96 on Oct 20, 2008 1:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I love Herb...
but he is by no means cut out for a right tackle in this league and especially in our scheme. He is too undersized and we need a big body to blow open some holes on that side. We need to cut McIntosh, we never should have signed him it was a desperation move on our part. Even if he fills the RG spot his days our numbered and we will have to bite our fingernails every week with the prospect of his knees blowing out.
by chiefsfan1384 on Oct 20, 2008 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not biting my nails
I’m praying the knees go out and he has to retire.
Go to Wide World of Roto for all your fantasy news!
by JasonM on Oct 20, 2008 6:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Listen,
our team is so bad right now its not even funny. And I don’t agree with you that these long runs are the result of outside sweeps, our interior is playing as poorly as the ends. There are six huge talent holes and I think the rest is inexperience. We need a QB, RE, RT, MLB, RG, and K desperately. And we need those positions filled in that order. I’d put WR on that list, but that is the least of our worries and probably won’t be addressed this off-season because we have so many damn needs. Realisticly, JP Losman looks like the only viable option at QB right now. Bradford and McCoy aren’t coming out and do we really have the patience right now to wait for a signal caller to grow up? We also need to sign a RE because their learning curb is high as well. (Suggs and Peppers are free agents) I also want a kicker in free agent because they don’t dictate the big bucks, but would be vital to our team if we become competitive again. (Nugent, Gould, Birones) I think we might be able to address the other three holes in the draft if we can pull off a monster trade down from top 3 to 10-13. We can then get our mike linebacker and right tackle in the first and draft a monster RG at the top of the 2nd. 3rd, 4th, and 5th could address WR and more depth at CB and LB. A 6th round QB prospect would be the cherry on top.
by chiefsfan1384 on Oct 20, 2008 1:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Anyone notice how the Rams are now 2-0 with a new coach?
by Vince D on Oct 20, 2008 1:45 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I Did Notice That
Having a competent coach (and I don’t mean a good one…because Haslett’s not that good) makes a lot of difference. I honestly believe that Herm Edwards is one of the most incompetent head coaches ever to work in the NFL. Right now you’d have a tough time convincing me that he’s not worse than Rich Kotite.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 8:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Dad's friends with a retired Pro Coach
…he was telling me about a conversation they had. My Dad’s retired as well and they were just shooting the breeze last year (not talking about Chiefs or any other sport/team) and asked: “who is untimately responsible for a teams success on the field”.
The coach thought about it for a second and said: “The coach. He chooses the players to play, he makes strategic decisions, he prepares the players and evaluates how they are progressing. He decides whether to sit them or play them. The coach has the ultimate responsibility.”
I’ll give you one guess wheter this guy was a winner or a loser.
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 8:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
There's A Lot Of Truth In That
But when you’ve had multiple coaches over a decade and each one has had limited success, the finger should also be pointed at the general manager who hired all of those coaches.
But your dad’s friend was correct…a good coach steps up and takes personal responsibility for the performance of the product on the field. I’ve never heard Herm do that except for a preseason game when he was mugging for the cameras. The guy’s just an incompetent, team-killing bullshit artist.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 8:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
How Do You Fix This
You fire the people who have created the problem in the first place and bring in a fresh set of eyes.
Herm and Carl have to go. Until then you’re just trying to treat the symptoms while leaving the disease unchecked.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 8:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Keep Carl and Herm!!!
I’m going back to my earlier post last week. I demand satisfaction from the Kool-Aid drinkers that said we need to give them time to develop this team!!!. I said I’d apologize if they made it to the playoffs in 2 years under this mgmt. and exepcted the same in return.
:) yeah, like they’d admit they were wrong.
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sometimes They Do
Quite a few people have admitted on this site that they’re finally seeing that Herm and Carl are the problem here. So don’t get too down on them…some people are willing to believe longer than others. But eventually reality brings most of them around.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 8:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
True...
…but there are plenty that refuse to admit that they’re wrong. I’ve said it before…it takes a man to admit he’s wrong. Those that don’t, just don’t post the same garbage anymore. Instead they just lurk and sulk at their poor evaluation.
Herm’s (and his supporters) idea of running a football team is just like spoiled milk:
If you open the fridge and pull a jug of milk out, taste it and it’s sour. Do you:
1) Throw the milk away
2) Put it back in the fridge and think: “Hey, maybe it’ll be better in a couple of weeks”
The realists choose 1 and Herm’s Hermits choose 2.
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 8:41 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hey where did you get the term Herm's Hermits's?
Very good analogy of milk.
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Oct 20, 2008 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I made it up this season
After watching the Chiefs play against the teams this year, they seemed to be running and playing slower then the opposition.
It’s as though the guys in “Red and Gold” seem to be set in slo-mo and everyine else is Fast-Forward. So, I figured that they weren’t showing up, i.e. being Hermits. Then I thought Herm put this together and Voila! “Herm’s Hermits”
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 10:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, those that remember there was a 60's band by that name.
by THE_TRUTH on Oct 20, 2008 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was just messin with ya
I think I also used the term, Herm and the Hermits in a post last week. I think it fits!
"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"
by Lanier63 on Oct 20, 2008 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
MOTIVATION
Probably the most important factor in football. And Herm – as coach – has shown that he is not motivating the players this season AT ALL. We need a new coach, I don’t care what loyal fans say, I don’t care what Clark Hunt says, I don’t care what anyone says. Herm is the #1 problem behind this mess with Carl a close second. No football team with the players we have should ever be completely dominated.
Herm Edwards is a retard.
by CBaller13 on Oct 20, 2008 8:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Two Words:
Bill Cowher.
Word on the street continues to be that King Carl P will have a job through 2010 due to an agreement he had with Lamar. If that’s the case, then put him in charge of parking and the stadium project. Bring in Bill Cowher reporting directly to Clark. He knows the Hunt family and the Chiefs’ organization.
by 20Years on Oct 20, 2008 4:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As Long As Carl's Here
We have no shot at landing Bill Cowher. Or Martin Mayhew. Or Scott Pioli. Or probably any other coach who’s going to help us dig out. And once Carl is gone (assuming the Chiefs don’t give him that CEO job) the new GM (assuming it’s not Bill “I helped put together the worst team in Chiefs history” Kuharich) is going to want his own guy anyway.
The Chiefs are screwed so long as Carl Peterson is in any way involved in running this club. He cannot be allowed to pick his successor or stay on in any sort of advisory role. That’s just going to lead to another four or five years of this crap.
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction
“Or probably any other coach or GM who’s going to help us dig out.”
Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.
by UCrawford on Oct 20, 2008 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
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