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It's No Longer Armchair Coaching and General Management

I wanted to write a fanpost about why I'm upset with where we're at. I don't want to call for Herm Edwards or Carl Peterson to be fired, nor do I want to pin this situation on either of them. We are arguing about that in all the other threads, every day, have been for months. This isn't about draws on third down, on starting Macintosh, on the evaluation of Brodie, or anything else. It's just a reflection based on personal experience. So I would ask in the comments that if you disagree, try and steer the conversation to something positive or to making a separate point, rather than tearing m down personally by saying I am a bad fan or silly or anything else that's a personal attack. This is just a set of thoughts I've been having and I wanted to share with the community.

I'm depressed today. Badly, when I think about this team. When the Chiefs lose, I'm used to a funk. The dull ache of the plays that could have made the difference.  The anger at when teams aren't prepared to play (Pittsburgh and the late-night clubbin' game). The deep well of nothingness that the first round playoff losses cause. But this is different. We've been a bad football team before. Many times. And we'll be a bad football team again, long after Herm Edwards is gone, be it at the end of the season with nothing accomplished, or in seven years with a ring or two. But what we've lost, if only for the time being, is a sense of pride in this organization and a commitment to being a step better.

The 90's dominant defense team had some bad people on it. Let's be honest. Dale Carter. Tamarick Vanover. Even Derrick Thomas was known to have some question marks. But this team has also been home to some genuinely great people, and we've always had a relationship with them. Joe Montana will always be a Niner, but he was overwhelmed by how we treated him. Marcus Allen. Trent Green loved it here. Priest Holmes.

And today, we failed to reach an agreement to trade our all-world tight end. A tight end. The argument is that we couldn't have gotten equal value back and he'll be of too much value. For what? An offense that can't move anyway? I'm not trying to criticize the coaching or the team, but the fact is that having Tony around doesn't matter if we can't get him the ball. Then all we're doing is making his final years in this league bad. Instead of making memorable, important catches for a playoff team, even if that team doesn't win the Super Bowl, he's going to be shaking his head after not getting thrown to when he's open. He can be a guiding veteran for the youngsters, sure, but he's done that before. He deserved better from us. He didn't come out to the press and demand it. He didn't threaten to sit out. He didn't pitch a fit. He calmly told his employer that he'd rather be elsewhere than babysitting a team that does little right and that is made up of players that probably won't even be around by the time he retires. And we wouldn't grant him that. After all the charity work, all the memorable touchdowns, all the community involvement, all the wins he brought us, we refused to take care of a guy who stood by us when he could have bolted years ago in his prime, so that we could say "Well, we didn't get screwed." We're not New York, we're not LA. This is a business. But you can run your business with class and dignity. And right now we're not.

Our running back has had three separate incidents of violence against women. The latest is a minor brush with a woman he may or may not have shoved in a club. He's slacked off on rehab assignments to party in NYC with his ROC friends, cost us penalties in the redzone, bitched, moaned, and pouted, and what have we done? We've devoted so much money to him that he's not only the highest paid player in our history, but he's untradeable due to his salary and cap hit.

This is a business, but you can run a business with class and dignity. And right now we're not.

Marty lost it later on. There's no question. But for a run, there, we had quality guys who we were committed to as an organization. Kansas City isn't New York or LA. It's a midwestern city with midwestern values. Like family. And commitment. And a sense of doing right by the people you employ. And that means more than just paying their market wage. And that means drawing a line and saying what is unacceptable behavior for a representative of our city, and our team.

I wore my Chiefs jersey the day after the Colts drubbed us in the playoffs in 03. I've worn my gear out and taken the derision from friends about the losses and said "You know, every team goes through this." But today may have been the first time I legitimately started to feel ashamed of this franchise.

We've got to do better.

Just my feelings.

This is a FanPost and does not necessarily reflect the views of Arrowhead Pride's writers or editors. It does reflect the views of this particular fan though, which is as important as the views of Arrowhead Pride writers or editors.

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well...

yeah we all do need to step it up but at the same time herm edwards blows. look what happened when he went to the jets. they got raped. when he came in here we were a playoff contending team. since he’s been here where have we gone? down.

thats my feelings. peace

by jperezpv25 on Oct 15, 2008 1:34 AM CDT   0 recs

"they got raped"

Or they went to the playoffs 3 times. Guess it’s a matter of perspective.

by primetime 07 on Oct 15, 2008 8:53 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

and won while in the playoffs

every playoff loss was to the eventual SB winner, I believe.

by NJChiefsFan on Oct 15, 2008 9:27 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

he hasn't won here

his playoff record here is the equal of Dick Vermeil’s Chiefs’ tenure.

With no liklihood of improvement in the near future. Or the distant future, either.

Just because he got lucky in New York (seriously, who BETTER to play against in the playoffs than Marty?) doesn’t mean he won’t crap out here

by sm7600 on Oct 15, 2008 10:14 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

With no liklihood of improvement in the near future. Or the distant future, either.

Disagree with that.

he got lucky in New York

Disagree with that. If anything, he was horrible unlucky.

by NJChiefsFan on Oct 15, 2008 10:54 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

yeah just a rotten piece of luck

to play a Marty Schottenheimer team in the playoffs.

Nothing else spells guaranteed win….

As far as success in the future goes, that’s theology, not science. You either believe, or not. I want proof. Its not here. Not by a longshot.

by sm7600 on Oct 15, 2008 12:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think you perfectly summarize the pathos of the average Chiefs fan this morning.

We’re headed for a period of dark days.

Fortunately, the silver lining is youth.

by Direckshun on Oct 15, 2008 1:36 AM CDT   0 recs

I believe

there would have been greater backlash for trading him than there is now for NOT trading him. Either way Peterson’s job security comes into question…

I thought we treated Greg Wesley shitty. I’ve always thought the words “Classy” and “Carl Peterson” were mutually exclusive…

by KansasCityShuffle on Oct 15, 2008 1:46 AM CDT   0 recs

Tony Richardson as well.

Ridiculous Upside: All the "Almost NBA" info you can handle!

by Ridiculous Matt on Oct 15, 2008 1:49 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Casey Wiegmann

was winner of my favorite story this year

by KansasCityShuffle on Oct 15, 2008 1:57 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

You think maybe that is why Roaf left like he did?

"But what do I know, I’m like an empty room with a large ECHO"

by Lanier63 on Oct 15, 2008 8:01 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Matt

I understand the depth of your feelings and how much you admire Tony and how hard you’ve taken the state of this team for a couple years now. It’s difficult for everyone to watch no matter how optimistic you are about the direction we are headed and what it will allow us to become in the future.

However, there is more involved here than a “If you love something enough you set it free” cliche. In the end, this IS a business, but it is a business with many facets to it that involve more than just the puppetmaster pulling the strings.

In the end, this is about what is best for the team rather than the individual. This, as I have said before, is a change from what the attitude was during the Vermeil years when the entire organization was essentially involved in promoting hero worship. The players themselves were often elevated over the team as a whole by both the the coach, GM and the fans themselves. That’s why so many were more happy about having the number one offense in the league than only going to the playoffs once in five years. In a carry over from that attitude, its why Carl Peterson gave Larry Johnson an enormous contract.

But things are different now. We saw it when they didn’t risk the game to get Tony his individual record in the Denver game. The desires of one player are not going to be catered to to the detriment of the team as a whole, no matter who they are.

Does the organization have a responsibility to trade Tony to a contender as he wishes in thanks for his years of faithful service? YES. But not to the detriment of the team. Despite the losing that will likely continue, he has great value to this team still in his ability to mentor young players and that cannot and will not be just given away out of faithfulness to the individual over the teams welfare.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 15, 2008 6:51 AM CDT   0 recs

In all fairness DJ

reports are surfacing that the asking price of a 3rd rounder were more than met for Tony. That is until Carl rebuked that by saying the initial price as a 2nd and 5th. I know he wanted comp equal to Shockey but then why would it be said that a 3rd rounder would suffice the deal?

A 3rd rounder is right in the area of a high quality guard/center and we could use either. Not only that but ammunition in a package to move up in the draft. Tough call on this one although I agree with your opinion on the team being bigger than the individual.

Good Luck with this one Carl.

by dkugler838 on Oct 15, 2008 8:04 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tony does not get to decide what his value to the Chiefs are

Carl Peterson wanted multiple picks and no team was willing to offer that. Consider also that if you’re getting a 3rd round pick from a team that has a good chance to go deep in the playoffs that its really almost a 4th round pick. Is Tony Gs value really that of an early 4th round pick? Its much more than that.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 15, 2008 4:57 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Always With The Straw Men

Why do you insist on misconstruing peoples’ positions to rationalize your support of Peterson? DKugler was pretty clear that he was attacking Carl’s decision to change what he said was the asking price in the middle of negotiations.

Peterson reportedly told Gonzalez he’d seek a trade and that he’d accept a third rounder for him. Then he changed the asking price in the middle of negotiations. Gonzalez isn’t mad because Peterson decided not to trade him, he’s mad because he thinks Peterson lied to him about seriously looking for a trade. And if Peterson did tell Gonzalez that he’d take a 3rd rounder, then upped it mid-negotiation to a 2nd rounder Peterson did lie to Gonzalez so he’s justified in being upset. And Peterson’s refusal to say what other teams offered tends to support Gonzalez’s side of the story. Don’t attack Gonzalez just because you refuse to consider the possibility that Peterson’s a liar and a backstabber.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 5:13 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

When did I attack Tony?

You’re becoming unhinged my friend.

Carl Petersons job is not to make Tony Gonzalez feel all warm and fuzzy inside. His job is to do whats in the best interests of the Kansas City Chiefs.

No one, not you, not me, not anyone outside of Arrowhead knows what was said. Tony was not present at the negotiations, he is getting the same rumors we are which may or may not be true.

The only person that was in a position to know both what the Chiefs wanted and what offers they received is Carl Peterson. But of course because of your attitude towards him you believe anything he says should be completely dismissed.

by ChiefDJ on Oct 15, 2008 6:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Well

According to what we have (at least what I’ve gathered) Peterson brought up the Roaf thing as a sort of barometer. Tony never said, “Carl told me a 3rd round pick.” Mr. Gonzalez assumed that was what he meant.

Keep in mind that Carl still has to deal with people, and if you’ve ever dealt with people you know that you can’t always show intentions up front.

Carl never said, “I’ll make the trade for a 3rd rounder.” Any reports (again, as I’ve seen) have be rumors/speculation.

Carl’s been the business a long time.

by AngryJesus on Oct 15, 2008 6:39 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

These Are Valid Points That Both Of You Have Brought Up

Yes, Peterson is obligated to act in the best interests of the Chiefs. But he’s also dealing with the team’s best player, the player who is pretty much the media face of the team, and a player who has been honest about his feelings about his position on the team and what he’d like to see. Does he owe Gonzalez a trade? Hell no. But Peterson owes it to Gonzalez not to bullshit him on his trade request. If he has no intention of trading Gonzalez, he needs to let Gonzalez know that he won’t trade him. If he has an asking price that he feels is fair for Gonzalez but it’s not likely they’ll get it, he should let him know that. What he shouldn’t do is duck the players’ question with evasive answers, let him think that a trade is a likelihood, then quash all offers that the player thought met the GM’s criteria (then dump an angry player back on the head coach to deal with).

Whether he gave Gonzalez specifics or not he obviously strung Gonzalez along…because Gonzalez doesn’t have a history of lying about the front office and he’s saying he felt strung along. And that’s a problem Carl Peterson has created.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 8:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Detriment of the team?

Look at Herms coaching, personnel decisions, now there is detriment.

by Eric Allen on Oct 15, 2008 8:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tony's record

Since when is the game at risk when Tony is thrown to. What a crock this sweet smelling little girly post is.

by FanSinceLen on Oct 16, 2008 1:33 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Tony G playing his career as a Chief

is more important to most fans than a 3rd round pick. Even if we had gotten a 2nd and 5th like Carl was asking, most fans still would have not liked it.

The views we have at AP are not the same as the average Chiefs fan. They want Tony G to stay no matter what the asking price is.

by Vince D on Oct 15, 2008 7:08 AM CDT   0 recs

Neil Smith?

What did he do, aside from getting suckered in that Ponzi scheme involving cars?

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 9:59 AM CDT   0 recs

He forgot to mention Tamarick Vanover

That guy was a heap of trouble. But the first Chiefs game I ever went to, he returned the opening kickoff for a touchdown. Good memories….

by Vince D on Oct 15, 2008 10:38 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

First Chiefs Game I Ever Went To

Was the Monday Night Chargers Game where Vanover ran back the overtime kickoff for the win.

I bought a plaque of the guy, for God’s sake. What a letdown.

Ridiculous Upside: All the "Almost NBA" info you can handle!

by Ridiculous Matt on Oct 15, 2008 10:50 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Bam Morris

…serving in the Texas State Pen for trafficking 200lbs. of the Midwest Mambo across state lines in the trunk of his car.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 11:27 AM CDT   0 recs

That Was A Bad Signing

Bam was a problem child in Pittsburgh and never should have been signed here.

Seriously, though…what made Neil Smith a bad guy? I thought he was always fairly reputable off the field when he played.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 11:28 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I don't think it was off the field...

…I think it’s inferred that he went to a rival (Denver) even though the Chiefs matched the offer. He was really liked until he did that. Then to make things worse he comes back here after 2 SB rings and does the Chiefs pre-game show and had business’ in the K.C. community.
Most people felt that since he left he should’ve stayed in Denver. Leaving for a rival never sits well.
I understand the decision to leave for a SB chance. But not to a rival after he was so well accepted and liked here.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 11:48 AM CDT   0 recs

B.S.

Football’s a business and players switch teams all the time…and he had the most success here. He went to San Diego after going to Denver as well. He just wanted to stay in the AFC West, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Some players develop a comfort level and that was his. And if fans think less of Neil Smith because he played for Denver or San Diego when he busted his ass and gave us some great years while he was here, then they’re ingrates. It says absolutely nothing about Smith character.

Now, if he’d gone and played for the Raiders… :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 12:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks for contradicting yourself
Now, if he’d gone and played for the Raiders… :)


Chiefs fans still remember being beat by horse-face Elway after running past the line of scrimmage and compelting a pass for a TD at the end of the game at Arrowhead.. So don’t give Neil a pass. Neil Smith is beloved by K.C. like Marcus Allen is in Oakland. Same difference. Matter of fact Neil will go into the hall as a Bronco like Marcus as a Chief.

If you think the majority of fans think from a “business” perspective you are sorely mistaken. Personally I understand and really don’t care wither way. But Ma and Pa Kettle and Joe Bob do.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 12:15 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

And one more point...

…what if…purely hypothetical…our “beloved” Tony G. went to the Faiders or the Donkey’s? Do you honestly think that this cities fans would be OK with him winning a ring there?

I think the tide would definitely turn on this cities perception of him.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 12:31 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Agreed

And yes, the “average” fan (whatever that is) doesn’t think about football with more than emotion.

We’re all too self-serving to mention that. We’re not the “average” fan,

by AngryJesus on Oct 15, 2008 12:34 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Absolutely correct.

…I think the majority of us (on here) think beyond that and try to get to the “bottom of the truth”. We’re more concerned about success then who’s doing what and where and how they are percieved from a “likeability” standpoint. Bottom line is that there are 3 teams that have 5 SB’s and we have one since the organization was founded in 1960. It’s a given that the SB hasn’t been around that long, but that’s the ultimate goal as far as we’re concerned.

What eats at me is that every one of the teams in our division made it back to the “show” since we won it. Some, numerous times. Yes, even the Seahawks that are no longer in the division made it there after us.

Right now we need to take baby steps to at least be in contention and regain “hope” that we become a better team. Id on’t think SB is a viable option for a long long time. Herm even said that he “hopes” at the end of this season we retain 5-6 players from this years squad of young talent going into next year. That’s not an awful lot of young players to retain on a 53 man roster.
…but I digress.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 12:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I Was Joking About The Raider (Thus The Smiley Face)

If Tony G. went on to win a Super Bowl for the Raiders I’d a) be happy for him because he gave his best years for us and b) wonder exactly how screwed up KC has to be for the Raiders to have gone to the Super Bowl twice in 10 years when the Chiefs haven’t won a playoff game for 14.

Neil Smith didn’t go to the Broncos because he wanted to betray KC fans, he went because the Chiefs didn’t want to re-sign him. Tony G. doesn’t want a trade because he wants to betray the fans, he wants to leave because Carl Peterson can’t build championship-caliber football teams and the Chiefs never bother to look for a new GM who could.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 12:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree...

…I would be happy for him as well. But I don’t think the majority of fans would. As far as Smith’s contract. I REALLY want to say that the Chiefs matched the offer. I’m almost 100% certain they did, but he chose Denver. Either way…no biggie.
Again, this goes back to your questioning the perception of Chiefs fans to Neil…the majority HATED that he wore the Donkey’s uniform and I remember people getting pissed that he had the nose tape with donkey colors on it. (if you remeber he started that trend and had red and gold). I laughed at the observation, but I remember the comments.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 12:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I Wasn't Thrilled That He Was A Bronco

But I was happy for him when he won. As for what the majority of fans think on that, no clue…I can really only answer for myself there and what I think is right. And I didn’t begrudge the guy continuing his career elsewhere.

But I was happy that he didn’t choose to become a Raider :)

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 12:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Last point...

…he didn’t have “the most success here” as you put it. He won 2 SB’s in Denver. As far as San Diego is concerned, most Chiefs fans (dare I say the vast majority) don’t have a disdain for the Chargers as they do for Denver and Oakland.

He’s in Limbo between these two cities because he played for both and both regard him as a player for the other rival. He’ll never fit in, that’s why he lives in Florida :-)

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 12:35 PM CDT   0 recs

Success

Individually he had more success in Kansas City. He won two Super Bowls in Denver because he played on better teams there.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 12:45 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The same thing that's important to Tony :-)

…dare I say something noone can take away and a record that can’t eventually be broken :-)

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 12:52 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I Think

That it would have been more important to him to win a Super Bowl here than it would have to win a Super Bowl in Denver because I think he liked being a Chief more. But he did the best he could to make that happen, it didn’t happen, and the reasons it didn’t happen didn’t have a lot to do with him.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 1:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I have to respectfully disagree...

…this is just my personal opinion, but I don’t think he really cared where he got it being a pro. Now, OTOH had he been a Chiefs fan since learning to walk that would be a different story.

Me, honestly and purely hypothetically. Can’t stand the Faiders. If Al came calling and offered me millions to play and I won a SB…you’re damn straight I’d be happy and wear the ring with pride. Any sane fan would take the money…course he’d probably get rid of you mid way through your contract and refuse to pay ;-)

Case in point, Brady Quinn. He grew up a Browns fan, gets drafted by the Browns in the first round and I think he REALLY cares about winning a SB as a Brown. As an athlete I’m sure he would take one (even if it was with Pittsburgh), but it wouldn’t be the same.
I don’t know who Neil rooted for growing up, so I really can’t say if he would lean more towards us.

by THE_TRUTH on Oct 15, 2008 1:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I Think Neil Smith Has An Attachment To KC

After all, he got involved in the community again once his career was over. And it wasn’t his choice not to stay a Chief, the Chiefs chose not to re-sign him.

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 1:22 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Brigade

Isn’t Neil Smith one of the owners of the Brigage??? I am almost certain that I was standing next to him at a game and he actually had his own “section” that was him and three others on stools. He was really into the game and I can’t imagine anyone could get into it (I even had season tix to tailgate) if they didn’t own the team.

by skibum1537 on Oct 15, 2008 5:03 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He Is

Supporting the lesser of two evils is still supporting something evil.

by UCrawford on Oct 15, 2008 5:14 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I mentioned Neil Smith

based on some second hand stuff that probably didn’t warrant his inclusion and this but I’ve amended it to state Tamarick Vanover.

Ridiculous Upside: All the "Almost NBA" info you can handle!

by Ridiculous Matt on Oct 15, 2008 5:22 PM CDT   0 recs

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