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Chiefs Finally Hit Rock Bottom in Blowout Loss to the Denver Broncos

Arrowhead_pride_tiny by Chris on in Campaign 2007

That was painful. 16 rushing yards. 7 first downs. All while giving up 453 yards on defense.

The box score is here.

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Selvin Young...
...had more yards than our entire team.

I demand that Mike Solari is fired/demoted/removed immediately.

This was inexcusable.

MV

by mikvogel on Dec 9, 2007 6:13 PM CST   0 recs

Herm just blamed the players again
This time he blamed the defensive players for the offense.  Herm's AWESOME!

by DThomasReigns on Dec 9, 2007 6:15 PM CST   0 recs

embarassed
for the first time in my life, i honestly feel embarassed to be a chiefs fan.  the chiefs, every single member of the organization, should feel absolutely embarassed.  i question not only the talent of our players, but today i question their effort.  this game was utterly pathetic.  i'm surprised that the chiefs spent any time at all in preparation for this beating.  they looked to have no plan on offense or defense.  they played without emotion.  i now throw herm edwards into the fray and discussion about our pathetic offense.  he oversees this stuff and should understand what's up.  everything needs to be cleaned up.  offense.  defense.  special teams.  i'm pissed
pat

by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Dec 9, 2007 6:16 PM CST   0 recs

The Blame Game
Now, no one likes blame. But I think it's time we look at who's responsible for one of the worst losses in Chiefs history.
  1. Dick Vermeil- Did absolutely nothing to prepare this team today. It's almost like he wasn't under contract.
  2. Brodie Croyle- Brodie, we're not paying you to make calculated throws to your athletic downfield targets while having the time to make them. We're paying you to throw a 5 yard slant off your back foot into double coverage while you can feel Ian Gold's sweet breath on your neck like you were in prison. Step it up, kid. We got Damon Huard, and we're not afraid to use him.
  3. Kolby Smith- What do you mean, you have no o-line and your ankle hurts because God himself smites every valuable player to Herm Edwards? Excuses, excuses! LJ may have gotten half of your yards, but at least he would have made SportCenter for spiking the ball!
  4. God- He clearly hates us.
Okay, but let's look at the positive, or, as DJ and his other friend like to say, the Building we did today:
  1. Herm Edwards- built his bank account. Seriously. Have you ever seen someone make more money for doing less today? That was some nice dollars per effort there.
  2. Tamba Hali- He actually realized you could hit Jay Cutler.
  3. Herm Edwards- He put the right players on the field. That those players did not perform or have an adequate game plan is not Herm's fault. He still had loads of talent out there. Have I mentioned he can evaluate talent well?
  4. The AFC West- They helped build more separation from us as legitimate franchises.
Yes, we are working to build a bright, bright future!

*Note: You wouldn't believe how hard this was to type with all the vomit projecting out of my eyes, ears, nose, and mouth. Do not watch a game like that on a full stomach.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 6:19 PM CST   0 recs

Blame = Quitting
I think we all can agree this type of loss had been building for a while.

I think we can also agree that the players have quit on Herm....and here's why

by DThomasReigns on Dec 9, 2007 6:32 PM CST   0 recs

Herm
I think Carl Peterson needs to take some lessons from Kraft with the Pats. Hiring Herm was a hugh mistake. He has really messed this team up. They thought they built up the defense and he changed the  way Dick ran the offense. Hell, KU could be us right now

by dlan on Dec 9, 2007 6:32 PM CST   0 recs

I know
that we'll be back to the same argument.

"If you want to rebuild, you're going to have some hard losses."

Does 41-7 against a division rival who's 5-7 really count as just a hard loss?

Wouldn't it appear that this team has gotten progressively worse the longer Edwards has coached this team? Wouldn't you say our offense has regressed?

And there are the injuries.

And Herm hasn't had four drafts to get players.

I just have this awful, nagging, sinking feeling that while we suffer through losses like we did today, we're not going to get any better.

And we'll wake up and it'll be 2011, and we'll have had one 10-6 season where we win the West, and we'll still be nowhere.

I don't feel like we're building.

I feel like we're accepting mediocrity.

Or in this case, accepting being pillaged by a 5-7 ballclub.

God, this sucks.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 6:38 PM CST   0 recs

REbuilding?
I keep hearing that.. Rebuilding.  That would imply some recent past success, wouldn't it?  I'm new to following the Chiefs closely so maybe that's why I can't think of recent greatness.  When were the Chiefs last really good?  (seriously)

by AirHead on Dec 9, 2007 6:48 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

2003.
and to answer the question of rebuilding, im not so sure we are building either, at least after today.

even if we lose the rest of the season, we need to see some progress on offense. we need to see the offense get better, not worse. if not, solari HAS to be gone...

regarding dick vermeil, i obviously shouldnt have said anything. he obviously isnt at fault in any capacity for our loss today, all i was saying was that his win-now mentality forced a rebuilding project on us, whether we were ever good or not. unfortunately, whether herm is the right coach or not to rebuild is still up in the air.

one thing that i will say is that the first two years vermeil was here, he had greg robinson as his DC. who sucked. a helluva lot. even more than solari IMO. in any case, he was fired (technically, he resigned, but it wasnt a personal decision, as we all know) after the second season, and the next we went 13-3.

maybe the same thing can happen if solari is gone and replaced with someone competent? like, maybe, if herms ego gets out of the way, al saunders? or someone of the sort?

im just grasping for straws at this point...

by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 7:01 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

TWSS
hey, by the way, wasn't hammering you on the Vermeil thing. That's a pretty common argument from the Builders Association, as I like to call them.

I just don't like moving all the personnel decisions from Edwards, especially in the NFL. This isn't the NBA, where he's locked into contracts with players and can't get out of it.

And again, Turley.

I had my own problems with Vermeil, the same as we all did. No one wants a return to the no defense team.

We NEED balance.

I don't see that from this team. The defense underperformed today. We're not that bad on defense.

But 5 first downs is a major issue. And make no mistake. This is a Herm Edwards scheme. The same thing made the Jets oh-so dangerous.

I don't care about making the playoffs, which I feel is what we're building to.

"If we can play disciplined defense, and kick a lot of field goals, and play field position, we can probably win 9-10 games in a good year."

That's not good enough for me.

I don't want that to be the bar we're working for.

The other problem we've got is how do we analyze Brodie fairly behind this o-line. I was the one that said "If he sucks, we need to find something else." And I know Huard was worse. But we honestly have no idea how good Croyle is, because he's getting killed on every down.

Anyway, not trying to hammer on you, TWSS.

Even if you did steal the BCS Bowl.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 7:49 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Bullsh*t
MAWK, I think you and I have very similar feelings about the state of the Chiefs.

(This is not directed at you, MAWK) But no one in the Chiefs organization even hinted this was a rebuilding year until a few weeks ago.

Yes, many of us said we could take a rebuilding year.  But, the Chiefs refused to admit this was a rebuilding year.

Chiefs fans can take a rebuilding year, but Carl and Co never intimated it was one until it was too late.

Telling us in the beginning of the season (when all of us actually wanted it) would have allowed us to brace ourselves and accept the tough times.

BUT THEY REFUSED TO SAY IT.  The anger many of us have is because they tried to wrap this turd of a team in a ticket selling package rather than admit we needed to take a bad year to rebuild.

So...while we all wanted it, would have accepted it, the Front Office tried to make us believe otherwise.  That resulted in a schism between the Chiefs fans... the "We have a chance this year group"...and the "we need to rebuild group."

Unfortunately we never had any direction until we had been beaten down and the Front Office changed its tune.

by DThomasReigns on Dec 9, 2007 6:56 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

agreed.
i have defended herm too much today, but his EGO is awfully annoying...

it is NEVER his fault, he always blames his players, and that really bothers me.

it is obviously, at least in some capacity, his fault for losing 41-7. probably mostly his fault.

players play, coaches coach, i know, but it would be nice if he accepted blame just once or twice.

by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 7:06 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

It is what it is
Why do we have to hold a grudge against the administration for refusing to say the team is rebuilding?  

It's like holding a grudge against the police for saying some mass murderer they have video tape killing someone is a "suspect" instead of just saying he's the killer.

We ALL know the Chiefs are rebuilding.  THEY know they're rebuilding.  Just because they can't say it out loud for financial reasons doesn't mean any of us are going to be fooled.  Why do you think Arrowhead has been empty?  Because no one wants to watch a rebuilding team.

It's like LJs foot.  WHO THE HELL CARES if its broken or not?  Can he play?  No.  I frankly don't care what the injury is.  

It is what it is.  I don't care what anyone else says it is.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 7:59 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Why do we care
what the administration does?

All that matters is drafting well. That's it.

Nothing that goes on this season matters or says anything about anything.

This is just a multi-million dollar exhibition team.

We really should just forfeit every game so that Herm can focus more on drafting.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:21 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Might as well
That would do about as much good as taking cheap shots at one guy 30 posts a day.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:33 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

If they admit they're rebuilding
then they lose part of their fanbase.  Why would they say that?

by primetime 07 on Dec 9, 2007 8:50 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

In all fairness
I actually think Primetime and DJ are right on this. From a business standpoint, you absolutely cannot admit to the casual fan that you're going to suck. I can't blame them for that.

What they do does matter, but they did the right thing here.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:55 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Lets
not forget the donkeys just squeaked by Oakland their first game.This donkey team is worse than their record indicates. This team is on a steady down hill slide. We are lucky to have four wins. Herm has lost this team, it even showed with Jared Allen's play. Granted he was doubled all day, but his motor never seems to die down. It did today.

by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 7:26 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Nothing has changed
MAWK, not going to start the whole conversation over again because nothing has changed.

We sucked in preseason.  We sucked at the bye.  We sucked last week.  We sucked this week.

There are things that have been missing the entire season that not Herm, nor Carl, nor God himself can fix until the the season is over.

You blame it on Herm, fine, he's the easy whipping boy.  As long as all fingers are pointed at one man, the team will continue to suck because the other 50 are getting a pass.

Congrats.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 7:42 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I want
some of those rose colored glasses you are wearing. How can you possibly see anything positive from this? How can you possibly think he is going to make this team better? He wpuld not even make a mid game change to see if the other lineman could play better than Terry or Svitek. If he will not do it mid-game what makes you think next season he will make changes? Good talent scout, bad head coach!

by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 7:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

What did I say was positive?
There was nothing at all positive about this game.  

It looked to me like the team and coaches have quit.  That disgusts me more than anything.

But what are you going to do?  There are no other players to play.  You mean those practice squad guys that haven't been able to make any NFL team for two years?  Tre Stallings?

The line sucks.  There are no better players.  Thats why the Chiefs have sucked all year long.  There won't BE any better players until next year.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Yep
Can't take care of the problems this year. We'll have to cope.

To top it off, we are losing in such a boring way. There have been only about two games that were entertaining to watch this season.

by primetime 07 on Dec 9, 2007 8:05 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

How is it
that Herb Taylor has enough talent to play every line position in college, but cannot beat out Chris Terry?Because Herm put the people on the field thar HE wants to play. It does not matter to him because it is not his job to coach these guys up to make this team better? What happened Dick's last season,they started off 1-4 and finished 10-6.He made adjustments so the team could perform. Herm is not a good head coach. I have stated that his success was off of a Parcells built team and I believe it.

by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 8:09 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Sure
Herm was a scout when the Chiefs were drafting Szott, Grunhard and Alt.

Yeah I'm sure Herm thinks Terry is an AWESOME tackle.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:16 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Yeah!
And we all know that Herm is a master at evaluating talent! That's why it doesn't matter what goes on on the field! Herm KNOWS Terry can't play! That's why he went out and got a better player!

Wait, what?

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:26 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

You're right, Herms an idiot.
You're right, Herm should have pulled a pro bowl Right Tackle out of his ass.  What an idiot.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

DJ
brings up another good point.

It's not Herm's fault.

It's ours.

We're the ones. Not DJ and the Building Association.

Us. The Herm-Haters.

We have undermined this team. The fact that we appear to be headed nowhere can be directly attributed to the lack of faith in the Herm plan.

If we would just get on board and accept how bad we are, no matter how bad, how awful that is, we'd be fine. We would have only lost this game by 3 or 4 touchdowns.

There's (re)building.

Then there's pathetic.

Do you really believe that a 41-7 game was dependent upon personnel (which Herm obviously has no control over, being head coach and all), and not coaching at all?

And yes. Obviously. By us point out the fact that this team was poorly coached in a 41-7 loss, we are putting all the blame on Edwards, and giving the team in a pass.

And what with how Herm came out in the press conference and took full responsibility...

Mediocrity is fine as long as you claim it's for progress.

Congrats.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 7:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

And for those of you keeping track at home...
Good news! If Herm wins 1 more game this season, he'll match Vermeil's total in his first 2 years. If he wins 2, he'll have outdone him!

That's it! That settles it!

Well, yes, now that you mention it, Vermeil's team did post a 2 game improvement to reach .500 in his second season, while it would appear that Edwards' team is on pace for somewhere between a 5 and at best a 2 game drop.

But that's not important!

What is important is that Herm Edwards could coach CIRCLES around Dick Vermeil and Herm is waaaay better at talent evaluation.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:07 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Herm the wizard
I see your finger pointed squarely at Herm as it always is.

You aren't blaming Terry or Svitek.  Herm should be out there on the line blocking.

You aren't blaming Surtain, Law and Sapp for being incapable of tackling.  Herm should be out there tackling.

You aren't blaming Nap Harris for not being able to get back in coverage to cover the long passes down the seam all year long.  Herm should be playing mike and get back there.

Oh god no, its none of the players fault for quitting on the season.  Herm Edwards is the sole person responsible.

If Herm was a good coach, he'd pull Pro Bowl players out his ass to block for Croyle.  He'd turn Brackenridge and Patterson, undrafted rookiees, into superstars overnight.

Damn Herm Edwards for not being a sorcerer.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:08 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Oh yeah
And it must have been HERM calling the defense today since we all know that when something good happens, its because Gunther is the defensive coordinator, and when something bad happens, its because Herm is incompetent.

You forgot to pull that regularly used point out today.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:10 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

The
team is not buying Herms bag-o-bullshit that is why they are quitting on him. It is fine everything is fine.

by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 8:15 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's a fair point
Gunther got victimized today. He did not gameplan well. That's on him.
You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

He brought in
Napolean Harris in as a upgrade over K-Mitchell how is it not his fault?

by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 8:12 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Harris
Please link me to the post where I said bringing in Nap Harris was a good move.

Mitchell didn't do very well in that position last year either.  He's not equipped to play middle linebacker in the Cover 2.

I wouldn't be surprised if Herm sees the perfect guy for a mike linebacker in the draft if he doesn't snag him a year or two down the road.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:19 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

We should be able to get a quality
guy to play mike in 2 or 3 years since we'll be between 4 and 9 wins again, and if we're lucky, the administration will support a DJ plan and aim for a Super Bowl in 2028.

If have 21 more drafts, Herm should be in a good position then.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:23 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Magic wand
Damn it Mawk, why don't you send this magic wand you have that makes pro bowl players appear like out of the blue and send it to the Chiefs?

ITS MAWKS FAULT THE CHIEFS ARE LOSING! HE WON'T SHARE HIS MAGIC WAND!

What are you using that wand for anyway?  Wait... I don't want to know.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:32 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Take a step back
we've done a good job of keeping stuff above the belt here on AP. We pride ourselves on that, don't you agree? This isn't Stampede Blue or a Raiders board.

I think you have every right to support Herm Edwards and think that despite his problems, he's earned another 1-3 years on resume and... whatever other positive signs you've seen that the rest of the known world are missing.

But let's keep 'em up, okay? I've mentioned you and whatsisfacenewguy as the Builders' association because we have a fundamental difference of opinion and are pretty architypical of the situation.

But let's keep the gloves up, okay? Neither of us wants this to get ugly. We've suffered enough today.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Okay
Our offensive line is bad.
Terrible.
What can they do about this? Have they ever demonstrated that ability? No. We have some talent on there, but especially at left tackle, we're a disaster, because of personnel that Vermeil brought in. (What? That was Herm?! He signed Kyle Turley? Shut up! Shut up! We're tying not to blame Herm here, in order to be fair!)

If the O-line can't power block, we shouldn't run a power run game.

If the O-line can't pass block, we need to operate mostly from the shotgun and rework the routes to the  right area.

Our secondary does need help. Law and Surtain are over the hill. We know this. But really, shouldn't they at least be coached well enough to perform at a certain, non-41 points level?

Harris is still getting used to the scheme. Maybe he'll be an all-pro next year and Edwards will look like a genius for bringing him in.

I think that the head coach has a lot to say about a team quitting on the season. I'm crazy about leadership like that. I need to accept that true leadership is defined by a sparkling draft recrod.

The players, from Law to DJ, to Allen, to Brodie, to Kolby are responsible for today.

But they're not the only ones.

Side question to all, do we owe it to Tony to get him out of here next season to somewhere he can compete for a championship? Hasn't he earned that? Or do we trap him in this horrendous syste.... I mean, valuable rebuilding process that's absolutely headed in the right direction?

Oh, and Solari's got to go. We established that in week 2. But how many times do you see a Coach take control of the OC position when they're team performs at a franchise low level?

Nope, that's probably Vermeil and the players' fault too.  

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

yea
my brother and i were talking about that during the game as well.  apparently he was going to sign w/ green bay if we didn't ink him to the extension.  boy, wouldn't that be badass for him if he was catching balls from Favre as part of a successful, playoff-bound team?

as long as tony has some faith in the system i think he'll be happy, but man, if we don't improve quickly and he finishes out his career w/out a ring that will be a sickening injustice.

by thehulk on Dec 9, 2007 8:24 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

sorry
i forgot to clarify that i was responding specifically to your side-note about tony.

by thehulk on Dec 9, 2007 8:25 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

MAWK
"If the O-line can't power block, we shouldn't run a power run game.

If the O-line can't pass block, we need to operate mostly from the shotgun and rework the routes to the  right area."

Ok so that leaves what?  The line can't block PERIOD.  We should just punt as soon as we get the ball.  Oh yeah, we are doing that.

"I think that the head coach has a lot to say about a team quitting on the season."

I agree.

But you weren't talking about Herm being a bad coach because the team quit on him 6 weeks ago.  You just don't like Herm so every single bad play is his fault.

It makes it impossible to talk about LEGITIMATE complaints about him as a head coach when you continue to rave like a lunatic blaming him for each and every fumble, missed tackle or missed block that occurs on the field.

HERM SHOULDN'T BLAME THE PLAYERS!  HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN TERRY'S PLACE AT RIGHT TACKLE!

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:27 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Okay
let's talk.

Croyle's interception was not Herm's fault. He's a rookie. These things happen. Same thing with the fumble. The O-line playing badly is not Herm's fault. (Not doing ANYTHING about it? Nah, we'll leave it alone. They are ravaged by injury.)

My problem is that I can't blame Ty Law for being old.

I can't blame Napoleon Harris for having a bad game.

I can't blame Jeff Webb for not running routes well enough.

And I have said in other posts here in this thread why the defense performed badly today. Part of it is Gunther. Part of it is tackling.

We had a bad day, defensively. That's going to happen. But I honestly feel like coaching decisions took this from a 24-17 defeat to a 41-7 joke.

Maybe he should have tossed Turley to the curb and gotten someone who's not an actual deficiency on the football field.

But I'm silly like that.

So, honest answer. Do you seriously have no problem with Herm pinning it on the players and not taking any responsibility? If so, why? And if so, what are you smoking? And if so, where can I get some?

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

This is what I like
Ok this is what I like.  

Let's set the cheap shots aside (just for a sec), and actually discuss this point by point LOGICALLY and determine what it is exactly that you think Herm should have done.

"The O-line playing badly is not Herm's fault. (Not doing ANYTHING about it? Nah, we'll leave it alone. They are ravaged by injury.)"

Ok so what would you have done?  ALL our offensive linemen are bad (except maybe Waters and Wiegman is doing better).  

Our starting LT is average, but better than what we had last year, but he was the best LT free agent the Chiefs were able to get this past off season.  Our backup LT should be shot dead at the 50 yard line he's so bad.

Our starting RG is bad, so Herm started playing the young guy, Niswanger.  He gets injured.

Our starting RT is almost as bad as the backup LT... so is the backup.  The only other option is Herb Taylor, a 6th round draft pick rookie.  Why aren't they playing him?  At this point I have no clue, I'm guessing he's not impressing during practice.

So with this situation, please tell me what the answer is.  What is Herm supposed to do to fix this?

"And I have said in other posts here in this thread why the defense performed badly today. Part of it is Gunther. Part of it is tackling.
We had a bad day, defensively. That's going to happen. But I honestly feel like coaching decisions took this from a 24-17 defeat to a 41-7 joke."

Yes, bad defensive games are going to happen.  How specifically did bad coaching decisions take "this from a 24-17 defeat to a 41-7 joke."?

What specifically bad coaching decision blew the game out?

"Maybe he should have tossed Turley to the curb and gotten someone who's not an actual deficiency on the football field."

Did Turley play today?  I thought he was out with a bad back.  Doesn't matter, who you going to replace him with?

"Do you seriously have no problem with Herm pinning it on the players and not taking any responsibility? If so, why?"

I believe Herm and the entire coaching staff are every bit as much to blame as all the players.  A 41-7 loss where your only touchdown came by converting 3 4th downs is rediculous and everyone that gets a check from the Chiefs takes part of that.

What I have a problem with is using Herm as a scapegoat for EVERYTHING.  If Bill Bellichik calls a play and Tom Brady throws an interception, does that mean its Bellichiks fault because he's the coach or is it Tom Bradys fault because he threw the ball?

When it comes down to it, the coaches call the plays (sometimes they call bad plays) and the player executes the play or fails to execute the play.

Missed tackles, bad coverage, sacks, interceptions, fumbles, dropped passes... THOSE are examples of things that the player has to take the blame for because the coaches aren't on the field.

Coaches can call bad plays and you can criticize those all day long.  But coaches don't miss tackles, give up sacks or drop passes.  THAT is why we lost 41-7.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

To me, there's an hipocracy
in "Herm can evaluate talent like no other!" and "All of our offensive talent blows and that has nothing to do with Herm."

Because this "let's keep it short, run draws on 3rd and 18, use Kris Wilson, and play for field position" scheme put the defense on the field every play. This was an offensive ballgame. Our inability to do ANYTHING was pretty frustrating.

And the way the players quit I do blame on Herm. That's Herm's job as leader of this team. Fair?

It's not Herm's fault Croyle turned the ball over, or that we missed tackles. It's not his fault that we had a massive amount of injuries (though I am concerned with the injuries to everyone Herm holds dear on the field).

But this is HIS team. And he deserves the blame for what's his. And this team's performance is his.

If he said it was his fault, I'd probably have more slack for him. IT just, to me, says a lot about him that he doesn't own up to it, unless it's a preseason game.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

response
K, we can talk about these too, but I want to hold your feet to the fire and make you respond to your criticisms in the previous post.  

I'm not saying they aren't valid, but part of having an intelligent conversation is holding the person you're talking to accountable for the accusations he makes.

If you don't have the answers, and answers that realistically could happen, you can't hold the person you're blaming accountable.  So please respond to those points my previous post.

"Because this "let's keep it short, run draws on 3rd and 18, use Kris Wilson, and play for field position" scheme put the defense on the field every play. This was an offensive ballgame. Our inability to do ANYTHING was pretty frustrating. "

Did we really play this way today?  I know we have at times in the past when the games were close, but we were down by 14 half way through the 1st quarter today.  They threw the ball ALOT today.  The defense being on the field is the exact OPPOSITE of what Herm wants to do.  The offense just isn't capable of staying on the field.  I think thats why our defense has tanked the last couple games.  The poor guys are tired.

"And the way the players quit I do blame on Herm. That's Herm's job as leader of this team. Fair?"

Absolutely true.  How the team plays the last games of the year when they're out of it will say alot, and it doesn't look good so far.  What will tell even more is if those players that are quitting while the team is down will be back next year or not.  I think they won't.

"But this is HIS team. And he deserves the blame for what's his. And this team's performance is his."

Yes he deserves blame.  He's the Head Coach.  The buck stops with him.  But not ALL the blame.  That's all I'm resisting. Scapegoating.  I hate that with a passion.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:13 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I tried to answer those in the last post, but I'll
get more into them if you point them out.

We tried to in the beginning. We tried to play "our game" and when it didn't work and the defense didn't bail us out, we started opening it up, and I was happy with that. Of course, we looked like we'd never gameplanned for that before, which is kind of bad.

I agree the poor guys are tired. But they would have been in a much better position to repond if we'd gotten more than 7 first downs, don't you think?

If Herm cleans house in the offseason, I'll support that. If he doesn't replace them with talent that can succeed, well, I'll be right back to frustration.

Bear in mind that if we'd lost by three because Croyle turned the ball over on a pick six when we were up 7 with 4 minutes remaining? I would put int on Croyle.

I'm not scapegoating as much as you may think I am.

I'm just looking to the disease, not just the symptoms.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:24 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

our game
Herms offensive philosophy is simple:

-Get first downs.
-Burn time on the clock so your defense gets a break between times on the field.
-Don't turn the ball over.
-Take points when you can get them.

I haven't looked at the stats lately, but the Chiefs have to be at the bottom of the league in first downs.  They can't get first downs running, they can't get first downs passing.  As far as I know, those are the only 2 options we have.

So what is the problem?  Could be O-line, could be bad play calling, could be inexperienced players missing opportunities.

Realistically its all 3.  O-line is horrible as we all agree.  Solari, who is the one that actually calls the offensive plays is rediculous (If he isn't replaced next year, that is a legitimate strike on Herm as a head coach).  And young players make mistakes (if you look at the 4th & 1 that would have won the Colts game that Kolby ran, he went to the wrong hole.  The O-line DID have it open for him).

So its not just all Herms scheme.  Its alot of bad things happening at once.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:42 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

So we're in agreement
get players that don't suck, change the scheme, win the games.

It's that easy!

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:47 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Scheme
The scheme just depends.  There are teams that win all the time with philosophies similar to what Herm wants to do.

I think its more the guy calling the plays.

Did Dungy all the sudden become an offensive genius?  I don't think so, but his OC knew what he was doing and earned Dungys trust to let him do things. He also inherited a great QB.

If Herm can find that guy, I think he has what it takes to be a great coach.  Offense is clearly not Herms strong point and not something I think he is real comfortable with.  Herm realizes this about himself.

I think he was hoping he'd have the guy to cover for that weakness in Al Saunders, but for whatever reason, it didn't work out.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:53 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

But
when was the last team to have an offense that played not to lose that won a Super Bowl? And is that the kind of team we want?

DJ, honest question, are you looking to just make the playoffs? Is that good enough for you? There's nothing wrong with it. It's the mark of a good team.

I just think some of us may just set the bar higher.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 10:09 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Balance
No the goal is the Super Bowl.  I started watching the Chiefs when McEnroe was the coach.  Playoffs are all well and good and you have to be able to get to the playoffs in the first place.  But the Chiefs need to not only go to, but win the Super Bowl.

Of course we need to score points.  One of the misconceptions about Herm is that he doesn't like scoring points.  That is, of course, rediculous since you win by scoring points.

But the Colts playoff game the year the Chiefs were 13-3 taught us that you have to have balance.  It doesn't matter if you score every time you have the ball if you can't stop the other guy from scoring either.

When Herm took over, the Defense was the weakness.  That's what he concentrated on his first two drafts.  Now, quite obviously the Offense is the weakness.

If Herm is the guy I think he is, we'll see big changes this next year.

I don't think we'll ever be the New England Patriots, but Herm knows he needs to score points to win.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 10:21 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

And
if we draft a lineman, pick up a free agent, don't add anyone else, and are back here next year?
You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 10:31 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Don't even want to think about that.
No coach with the history the Chiefs have as an organization could survive 2 blow out seasons like this year.  

I don't honestly know where we will be at because I don't know if Herm is to the point where he's ready to make major shake ups in the coaching department or if we are going to run into what I think is his greatest flaw, loyalty to people that don't deserve it.

I honestly believe Herm is going to throw Mike Solari and Al Saunders playbook out the window this off season and try to get an OC with experience and his own playbook.  If this happens, you can expect another year of adjustment while everyone learns the new plays.

But theres no way Herm survives another season like this one.

That doesn't mean that rebuilding is done this year.  As you've pointed out, it takes time for linemen to develop. So drafting new guys next year won't magically make the O-line better.  BUT, the guys that were rookies when Herm first came, will be vets with 3 years of actual playing time.  The guys he drafted last year will have a year under their belt.  Every year that we move forward from this point on should just get better and better.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 10:49 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

So I shouldn't watch the rest of the game?
Went to the spouse's company holiday thing and TiVo'd the game. After the holiday event, we watched  the end of the 3rd quarter and start of the 4th of at a sports bar. The score was forty something to seventeen.  

After perusing the game thread, I'll consider the afternoon better spent where I was and just delete the game, unwatched.    

So who should we draft with our high first round pick?  O-line?  (Can we just buy someone else's?)

by AirHead on Dec 9, 2007 6:41 PM CST   0 recs

More Bulding
We're officially eliminated from playoff contention with this loss.

Also, KCStar reports that the Chiefs haven't lost 6 in a row since '98, Schotty's last season.

But I'd like to make sure everyone knows that Edwards has done way better in his time here than that scumbag, Vermeil, who thinks he can skate by with a 13-3 record and a good coaching record.

By the way, good news, Herm-defenders! Whitlock supports you!

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 6:54 PM CST   0 recs

Hey guys
I know you don't want to hear form a Broncos fan right now, but you need to just forget about this win.  KC isn't as bad as they looked in this game.

Denver saw this first hand twice this year, against SD and DET, and both times we felt like we were the worst team in the league.  This game was lost by you guys just before the first half was over.  Everything before that is fair grounds for criticism, but everything after....just forget about it if you can.  By that point the thing was spiraling out of control.  If we had tried to throw a TD with an OL to another OL it would have worked flawlessly.  On the other hand if you had tried a short run up the middle it would have been intercepted.  Do you see what I mean?

That being said, except for one drive, you guys had a pretty crappy first half...

by styg50 on Dec 9, 2007 6:57 PM CST   0 recs

how many
balls did KC receivers drop in the second half? I know they dropped a load of VERY well thrown balls in the first half.

I hate just looking at Croyles numbers when I cant watch the game becuase I know the offensive line and receiving core is insanely mediocre/below average.

I think Croyle has absloutely every passing tool any QB in the draft this year has, and to waste a first round pick on a QB should be insulting to cheifs fans if that what they actually decide to do. They need an o-lineman, just look what happened for the Browns' offensive line in one season? They drafted Joe Thomas and signed that guy fromt eh Bengals and wham, theyre an instant playoff team with the same coaching staff and basically the same team otherwise (they have a new corner, Eric Wright, and Derek Anderson was on the team last year, where he beat us if you dont remember).

Offensive line needs to be our BIGGEST concern, then defensive backs. Our QB/RB/WR situation is largely squared away with Smith/Johnson and Bowe/Kennison/Gonzalez for a couple more years.

Im telling you, Croyle is the man.

Croyle=stud

by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 8:02 PM CST   0 recs

At one point
Croyle was 8/12 passing and I know he had three drops by Bowe and Wilson.

by primetime 07 on Dec 9, 2007 8:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I gotta say
that's a great analysis for why we should draft a lineman.

Of course, the fact that we're looking up to the Browns makes me want to kill myself, but still!

Well done! Maybe I can get behind Jake Long after all!

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:09 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

wha?
Damn MAWK, you're slipping.  There were no cheap shots at Herm in this post.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Don't worry
I may be slipping, but you're right there, chastising people for holding a coaching staff responsible for a 41-7 loss to a division rival. Making personal criticisms of people's dissatisfaction with the worst offensive performance in Chiefs' history.

You're holding up our little dance. You're doing everything right. You're Herm. I'm the players.

You Play! To Punt! The Ball!

by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

HERM IS THE DEVIL
And you're right there making sure the players take none of the blame for a 41-7 loss.

Those 40+ players are pure as the wind driven snow.

Way to go.

by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:35 PM CST to parent up   0 recs