Chiefs Finally Hit Rock Bottom in Blowout Loss to the Denver Broncos
by Chris Thorman on Dec 9, 2007 6:05 PM CST
in 2007 Campaign
93 comments
That was painful. 16 rushing yards. 7 first downs. All while giving up 453 yards on defense.
The box score is here.
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Selvin Young...
I demand that Mike Solari is fired/demoted/removed immediately.
This was inexcusable.
MV
by mikvogel on Dec 9, 2007 6:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Herm just blamed the players again
by DThomasReigns on Dec 9, 2007 6:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
embarassed
by kcisbetterthanstlateverything on Dec 9, 2007 6:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
The Blame Game
- Dick Vermeil- Did absolutely nothing to prepare this team today. It's almost like he wasn't under contract.
- Brodie Croyle- Brodie, we're not paying you to make calculated throws to your athletic downfield targets while having the time to make them. We're paying you to throw a 5 yard slant off your back foot into double coverage while you can feel Ian Gold's sweet breath on your neck like you were in prison. Step it up, kid. We got Damon Huard, and we're not afraid to use him.
- Kolby Smith- What do you mean, you have no o-line and your ankle hurts because God himself smites every valuable player to Herm Edwards? Excuses, excuses! LJ may have gotten half of your yards, but at least he would have made SportCenter for spiking the ball!
- God- He clearly hates us.
- Herm Edwards- built his bank account. Seriously. Have you ever seen someone make more money for doing less today? That was some nice dollars per effort there.
- Tamba Hali- He actually realized you could hit Jay Cutler.
- Herm Edwards- He put the right players on the field. That those players did not perform or have an adequate game plan is not Herm's fault. He still had loads of talent out there. Have I mentioned he can evaluate talent well?
- The AFC West- They helped build more separation from us as legitimate franchises.
*Note: You wouldn't believe how hard this was to type with all the vomit projecting out of my eyes, ears, nose, and mouth. Do not watch a game like that on a full stomach.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 6:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Blame = Quitting
I think we can also agree that the players have quit on Herm....and here's why
by DThomasReigns on Dec 9, 2007 6:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Herm
by dlan on Dec 9, 2007 6:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I know
"If you want to rebuild, you're going to have some hard losses."
Does 41-7 against a division rival who's 5-7 really count as just a hard loss?
Wouldn't it appear that this team has gotten progressively worse the longer Edwards has coached this team? Wouldn't you say our offense has regressed?
And there are the injuries.
And Herm hasn't had four drafts to get players.
I just have this awful, nagging, sinking feeling that while we suffer through losses like we did today, we're not going to get any better.
And we'll wake up and it'll be 2011, and we'll have had one 10-6 season where we win the West, and we'll still be nowhere.
I don't feel like we're building.
I feel like we're accepting mediocrity.
Or in this case, accepting being pillaged by a 5-7 ballclub.
God, this sucks.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 6:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
REbuilding?
by AirHead on Dec 9, 2007 6:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
2003.
even if we lose the rest of the season, we need to see some progress on offense. we need to see the offense get better, not worse. if not, solari HAS to be gone...
regarding dick vermeil, i obviously shouldnt have said anything. he obviously isnt at fault in any capacity for our loss today, all i was saying was that his win-now mentality forced a rebuilding project on us, whether we were ever good or not. unfortunately, whether herm is the right coach or not to rebuild is still up in the air.
one thing that i will say is that the first two years vermeil was here, he had greg robinson as his DC. who sucked. a helluva lot. even more than solari IMO. in any case, he was fired (technically, he resigned, but it wasnt a personal decision, as we all know) after the second season, and the next we went 13-3.
maybe the same thing can happen if solari is gone and replaced with someone competent? like, maybe, if herms ego gets out of the way, al saunders? or someone of the sort?
im just grasping for straws at this point...
by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 7:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
TWSS
I just don't like moving all the personnel decisions from Edwards, especially in the NFL. This isn't the NBA, where he's locked into contracts with players and can't get out of it.
And again, Turley.
I had my own problems with Vermeil, the same as we all did. No one wants a return to the no defense team.
We NEED balance.
I don't see that from this team. The defense underperformed today. We're not that bad on defense.
But 5 first downs is a major issue. And make no mistake. This is a Herm Edwards scheme. The same thing made the Jets oh-so dangerous.
I don't care about making the playoffs, which I feel is what we're building to.
"If we can play disciplined defense, and kick a lot of field goals, and play field position, we can probably win 9-10 games in a good year."
That's not good enough for me.
I don't want that to be the bar we're working for.
The other problem we've got is how do we analyze Brodie fairly behind this o-line. I was the one that said "If he sucks, we need to find something else." And I know Huard was worse. But we honestly have no idea how good Croyle is, because he's getting killed on every down.
Anyway, not trying to hammer on you, TWSS.
Even if you did steal the BCS Bowl.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Bullsh*t
(This is not directed at you, MAWK) But no one in the Chiefs organization even hinted this was a rebuilding year until a few weeks ago.
Yes, many of us said we could take a rebuilding year. But, the Chiefs refused to admit this was a rebuilding year.
Chiefs fans can take a rebuilding year, but Carl and Co never intimated it was one until it was too late.
Telling us in the beginning of the season (when all of us actually wanted it) would have allowed us to brace ourselves and accept the tough times.
BUT THEY REFUSED TO SAY IT. The anger many of us have is because they tried to wrap this turd of a team in a ticket selling package rather than admit we needed to take a bad year to rebuild.
So...while we all wanted it, would have accepted it, the Front Office tried to make us believe otherwise. That resulted in a schism between the Chiefs fans... the "We have a chance this year group"...and the "we need to rebuild group."
Unfortunately we never had any direction until we had been beaten down and the Front Office changed its tune.
by DThomasReigns on Dec 9, 2007 6:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
it is NEVER his fault, he always blames his players, and that really bothers me.
it is obviously, at least in some capacity, his fault for losing 41-7. probably mostly his fault.
players play, coaches coach, i know, but it would be nice if he accepted blame just once or twice.
by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 7:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
It is what it is
It's like holding a grudge against the police for saying some mass murderer they have video tape killing someone is a "suspect" instead of just saying he's the killer.
We ALL know the Chiefs are rebuilding. THEY know they're rebuilding. Just because they can't say it out loud for financial reasons doesn't mean any of us are going to be fooled. Why do you think Arrowhead has been empty? Because no one wants to watch a rebuilding team.
It's like LJs foot. WHO THE HELL CARES if its broken or not? Can he play? No. I frankly don't care what the injury is.
It is what it is. I don't care what anyone else says it is.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Why do we care
All that matters is drafting well. That's it.
Nothing that goes on this season matters or says anything about anything.
This is just a multi-million dollar exhibition team.
We really should just forfeit every game so that Herm can focus more on drafting.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Might as well
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
If they admit they're rebuilding
by Joel Thorman on Dec 9, 2007 8:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
In all fairness
What they do does matter, but they did the right thing here.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Lets
by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 7:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Nothing has changed
We sucked in preseason. We sucked at the bye. We sucked last week. We sucked this week.
There are things that have been missing the entire season that not Herm, nor Carl, nor God himself can fix until the the season is over.
You blame it on Herm, fine, he's the easy whipping boy. As long as all fingers are pointed at one man, the team will continue to suck because the other 50 are getting a pass.
Congrats.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 7:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I want
by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
What did I say was positive?
It looked to me like the team and coaches have quit. That disgusts me more than anything.
But what are you going to do? There are no other players to play. You mean those practice squad guys that haven't been able to make any NFL team for two years? Tre Stallings?
The line sucks. There are no better players. Thats why the Chiefs have sucked all year long. There won't BE any better players until next year.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
To top it off, we are losing in such a boring way. There have been only about two games that were entertaining to watch this season.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 9, 2007 8:05 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
How is it
by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 8:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Sure
Yeah I'm sure Herm thinks Terry is an AWESOME tackle.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah!
Wait, what?
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
You're right, Herms an idiot.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
DJ
It's not Herm's fault.
It's ours.
We're the ones. Not DJ and the Building Association.
Us. The Herm-Haters.
We have undermined this team. The fact that we appear to be headed nowhere can be directly attributed to the lack of faith in the Herm plan.
If we would just get on board and accept how bad we are, no matter how bad, how awful that is, we'd be fine. We would have only lost this game by 3 or 4 touchdowns.
There's (re)building.
Then there's pathetic.
Do you really believe that a 41-7 game was dependent upon personnel (which Herm obviously has no control over, being head coach and all), and not coaching at all?
And yes. Obviously. By us point out the fact that this team was poorly coached in a 41-7 loss, we are putting all the blame on Edwards, and giving the team in a pass.
And what with how Herm came out in the press conference and took full responsibility...
Mediocrity is fine as long as you claim it's for progress.
Congrats.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 7:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And for those of you keeping track at home...
That's it! That settles it!
Well, yes, now that you mention it, Vermeil's team did post a 2 game improvement to reach .500 in his second season, while it would appear that Edwards' team is on pace for somewhere between a 5 and at best a 2 game drop.
But that's not important!
What is important is that Herm Edwards could coach CIRCLES around Dick Vermeil and Herm is waaaay better at talent evaluation.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Herm the wizard
You aren't blaming Terry or Svitek. Herm should be out there on the line blocking.
You aren't blaming Surtain, Law and Sapp for being incapable of tackling. Herm should be out there tackling.
You aren't blaming Nap Harris for not being able to get back in coverage to cover the long passes down the seam all year long. Herm should be playing mike and get back there.
Oh god no, its none of the players fault for quitting on the season. Herm Edwards is the sole person responsible.
If Herm was a good coach, he'd pull Pro Bowl players out his ass to block for Croyle. He'd turn Brackenridge and Patterson, undrafted rookiees, into superstars overnight.
Damn Herm Edwards for not being a sorcerer.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah
You forgot to pull that regularly used point out today.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
The
by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 8:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a fair point
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
He brought in
by Eric on Dec 9, 2007 8:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Harris
Mitchell didn't do very well in that position last year either. He's not equipped to play middle linebacker in the Cover 2.
I wouldn't be surprised if Herm sees the perfect guy for a mike linebacker in the draft if he doesn't snag him a year or two down the road.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We should be able to get a quality
If have 21 more drafts, Herm should be in a good position then.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Magic wand
ITS MAWKS FAULT THE CHIEFS ARE LOSING! HE WON'T SHARE HIS MAGIC WAND!
What are you using that wand for anyway? Wait... I don't want to know.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Take a step back
I think you have every right to support Herm Edwards and think that despite his problems, he's earned another 1-3 years on resume and... whatever other positive signs you've seen that the rest of the known world are missing.
But let's keep 'em up, okay? I've mentioned you and whatsisfacenewguy as the Builders' association because we have a fundamental difference of opinion and are pretty architypical of the situation.
But let's keep the gloves up, okay? Neither of us wants this to get ugly. We've suffered enough today.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Terrible.
What can they do about this? Have they ever demonstrated that ability? No. We have some talent on there, but especially at left tackle, we're a disaster, because of personnel that Vermeil brought in. (What? That was Herm?! He signed Kyle Turley? Shut up! Shut up! We're tying not to blame Herm here, in order to be fair!)
If the O-line can't power block, we shouldn't run a power run game.
If the O-line can't pass block, we need to operate mostly from the shotgun and rework the routes to the right area.
Our secondary does need help. Law and Surtain are over the hill. We know this. But really, shouldn't they at least be coached well enough to perform at a certain, non-41 points level?
Harris is still getting used to the scheme. Maybe he'll be an all-pro next year and Edwards will look like a genius for bringing him in.
I think that the head coach has a lot to say about a team quitting on the season. I'm crazy about leadership like that. I need to accept that true leadership is defined by a sparkling draft recrod.
The players, from Law to DJ, to Allen, to Brodie, to Kolby are responsible for today.
But they're not the only ones.
Side question to all, do we owe it to Tony to get him out of here next season to somewhere he can compete for a championship? Hasn't he earned that? Or do we trap him in this horrendous syste.... I mean, valuable rebuilding process that's absolutely headed in the right direction?
Oh, and Solari's got to go. We established that in week 2. But how many times do you see a Coach take control of the OC position when they're team performs at a franchise low level?
Nope, that's probably Vermeil and the players' fault too.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
yea
as long as tony has some faith in the system i think he'll be happy, but man, if we don't improve quickly and he finishes out his career w/out a ring that will be a sickening injustice.
by thehulk on Dec 9, 2007 8:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
MAWK
If the O-line can't pass block, we need to operate mostly from the shotgun and rework the routes to the right area."
Ok so that leaves what? The line can't block PERIOD. We should just punt as soon as we get the ball. Oh yeah, we are doing that.
"I think that the head coach has a lot to say about a team quitting on the season."
I agree.
But you weren't talking about Herm being a bad coach because the team quit on him 6 weeks ago. You just don't like Herm so every single bad play is his fault.
It makes it impossible to talk about LEGITIMATE complaints about him as a head coach when you continue to rave like a lunatic blaming him for each and every fumble, missed tackle or missed block that occurs on the field.
HERM SHOULDN'T BLAME THE PLAYERS! HE SHOULD HAVE TAKEN TERRY'S PLACE AT RIGHT TACKLE!
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay
Croyle's interception was not Herm's fault. He's a rookie. These things happen. Same thing with the fumble. The O-line playing badly is not Herm's fault. (Not doing ANYTHING about it? Nah, we'll leave it alone. They are ravaged by injury.)
My problem is that I can't blame Ty Law for being old.
I can't blame Napoleon Harris for having a bad game.
I can't blame Jeff Webb for not running routes well enough.
And I have said in other posts here in this thread why the defense performed badly today. Part of it is Gunther. Part of it is tackling.
We had a bad day, defensively. That's going to happen. But I honestly feel like coaching decisions took this from a 24-17 defeat to a 41-7 joke.
Maybe he should have tossed Turley to the curb and gotten someone who's not an actual deficiency on the football field.
But I'm silly like that.
So, honest answer. Do you seriously have no problem with Herm pinning it on the players and not taking any responsibility? If so, why? And if so, what are you smoking? And if so, where can I get some?
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
This is what I like
Let's set the cheap shots aside (just for a sec), and actually discuss this point by point LOGICALLY and determine what it is exactly that you think Herm should have done.
"The O-line playing badly is not Herm's fault. (Not doing ANYTHING about it? Nah, we'll leave it alone. They are ravaged by injury.)"
Ok so what would you have done? ALL our offensive linemen are bad (except maybe Waters and Wiegman is doing better).
Our starting LT is average, but better than what we had last year, but he was the best LT free agent the Chiefs were able to get this past off season. Our backup LT should be shot dead at the 50 yard line he's so bad.
Our starting RG is bad, so Herm started playing the young guy, Niswanger. He gets injured.
Our starting RT is almost as bad as the backup LT... so is the backup. The only other option is Herb Taylor, a 6th round draft pick rookie. Why aren't they playing him? At this point I have no clue, I'm guessing he's not impressing during practice.
So with this situation, please tell me what the answer is. What is Herm supposed to do to fix this?
"And I have said in other posts here in this thread why the defense performed badly today. Part of it is Gunther. Part of it is tackling.
We had a bad day, defensively. That's going to happen. But I honestly feel like coaching decisions took this from a 24-17 defeat to a 41-7 joke."
Yes, bad defensive games are going to happen. How specifically did bad coaching decisions take "this from a 24-17 defeat to a 41-7 joke."?
What specifically bad coaching decision blew the game out?
"Maybe he should have tossed Turley to the curb and gotten someone who's not an actual deficiency on the football field."
Did Turley play today? I thought he was out with a bad back. Doesn't matter, who you going to replace him with?
"Do you seriously have no problem with Herm pinning it on the players and not taking any responsibility? If so, why?"
I believe Herm and the entire coaching staff are every bit as much to blame as all the players. A 41-7 loss where your only touchdown came by converting 3 4th downs is rediculous and everyone that gets a check from the Chiefs takes part of that.
What I have a problem with is using Herm as a scapegoat for EVERYTHING. If Bill Bellichik calls a play and Tom Brady throws an interception, does that mean its Bellichiks fault because he's the coach or is it Tom Bradys fault because he threw the ball?
When it comes down to it, the coaches call the plays (sometimes they call bad plays) and the player executes the play or fails to execute the play.
Missed tackles, bad coverage, sacks, interceptions, fumbles, dropped passes... THOSE are examples of things that the player has to take the blame for because the coaches aren't on the field.
Coaches can call bad plays and you can criticize those all day long. But coaches don't miss tackles, give up sacks or drop passes. THAT is why we lost 41-7.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
To me, there's an hipocracy
Because this "let's keep it short, run draws on 3rd and 18, use Kris Wilson, and play for field position" scheme put the defense on the field every play. This was an offensive ballgame. Our inability to do ANYTHING was pretty frustrating.
And the way the players quit I do blame on Herm. That's Herm's job as leader of this team. Fair?
It's not Herm's fault Croyle turned the ball over, or that we missed tackles. It's not his fault that we had a massive amount of injuries (though I am concerned with the injuries to everyone Herm holds dear on the field).
But this is HIS team. And he deserves the blame for what's his. And this team's performance is his.
If he said it was his fault, I'd probably have more slack for him. IT just, to me, says a lot about him that he doesn't own up to it, unless it's a preseason game.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
response
I'm not saying they aren't valid, but part of having an intelligent conversation is holding the person you're talking to accountable for the accusations he makes.
If you don't have the answers, and answers that realistically could happen, you can't hold the person you're blaming accountable. So please respond to those points my previous post.
"Because this "let's keep it short, run draws on 3rd and 18, use Kris Wilson, and play for field position" scheme put the defense on the field every play. This was an offensive ballgame. Our inability to do ANYTHING was pretty frustrating. "
Did we really play this way today? I know we have at times in the past when the games were close, but we were down by 14 half way through the 1st quarter today. They threw the ball ALOT today. The defense being on the field is the exact OPPOSITE of what Herm wants to do. The offense just isn't capable of staying on the field. I think thats why our defense has tanked the last couple games. The poor guys are tired.
"And the way the players quit I do blame on Herm. That's Herm's job as leader of this team. Fair?"
Absolutely true. How the team plays the last games of the year when they're out of it will say alot, and it doesn't look good so far. What will tell even more is if those players that are quitting while the team is down will be back next year or not. I think they won't.
"But this is HIS team. And he deserves the blame for what's his. And this team's performance is his."
Yes he deserves blame. He's the Head Coach. The buck stops with him. But not ALL the blame. That's all I'm resisting. Scapegoating. I hate that with a passion.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I tried to answer those in the last post, but I'll
We tried to in the beginning. We tried to play "our game" and when it didn't work and the defense didn't bail us out, we started opening it up, and I was happy with that. Of course, we looked like we'd never gameplanned for that before, which is kind of bad.
I agree the poor guys are tired. But they would have been in a much better position to repond if we'd gotten more than 7 first downs, don't you think?
If Herm cleans house in the offseason, I'll support that. If he doesn't replace them with talent that can succeed, well, I'll be right back to frustration.
Bear in mind that if we'd lost by three because Croyle turned the ball over on a pick six when we were up 7 with 4 minutes remaining? I would put int on Croyle.
I'm not scapegoating as much as you may think I am.
I'm just looking to the disease, not just the symptoms.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
our game
-Get first downs.
-Burn time on the clock so your defense gets a break between times on the field.
-Don't turn the ball over.
-Take points when you can get them.
I haven't looked at the stats lately, but the Chiefs have to be at the bottom of the league in first downs. They can't get first downs running, they can't get first downs passing. As far as I know, those are the only 2 options we have.
So what is the problem? Could be O-line, could be bad play calling, could be inexperienced players missing opportunities.
Realistically its all 3. O-line is horrible as we all agree. Solari, who is the one that actually calls the offensive plays is rediculous (If he isn't replaced next year, that is a legitimate strike on Herm as a head coach). And young players make mistakes (if you look at the 4th & 1 that would have won the Colts game that Kolby ran, he went to the wrong hole. The O-line DID have it open for him).
So its not just all Herms scheme. Its alot of bad things happening at once.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So we're in agreement
It's that easy!
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Scheme
I think its more the guy calling the plays.
Did Dungy all the sudden become an offensive genius? I don't think so, but his OC knew what he was doing and earned Dungys trust to let him do things. He also inherited a great QB.
If Herm can find that guy, I think he has what it takes to be a great coach. Offense is clearly not Herms strong point and not something I think he is real comfortable with. Herm realizes this about himself.
I think he was hoping he'd have the guy to cover for that weakness in Al Saunders, but for whatever reason, it didn't work out.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
But
DJ, honest question, are you looking to just make the playoffs? Is that good enough for you? There's nothing wrong with it. It's the mark of a good team.
I just think some of us may just set the bar higher.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 10:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Balance
Of course we need to score points. One of the misconceptions about Herm is that he doesn't like scoring points. That is, of course, rediculous since you win by scoring points.
But the Colts playoff game the year the Chiefs were 13-3 taught us that you have to have balance. It doesn't matter if you score every time you have the ball if you can't stop the other guy from scoring either.
When Herm took over, the Defense was the weakness. That's what he concentrated on his first two drafts. Now, quite obviously the Offense is the weakness.
If Herm is the guy I think he is, we'll see big changes this next year.
I don't think we'll ever be the New England Patriots, but Herm knows he needs to score points to win.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 10:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
And
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 10:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't even want to think about that.
I don't honestly know where we will be at because I don't know if Herm is to the point where he's ready to make major shake ups in the coaching department or if we are going to run into what I think is his greatest flaw, loyalty to people that don't deserve it.
I honestly believe Herm is going to throw Mike Solari and Al Saunders playbook out the window this off season and try to get an OC with experience and his own playbook. If this happens, you can expect another year of adjustment while everyone learns the new plays.
But theres no way Herm survives another season like this one.
That doesn't mean that rebuilding is done this year. As you've pointed out, it takes time for linemen to develop. So drafting new guys next year won't magically make the O-line better. BUT, the guys that were rookies when Herm first came, will be vets with 3 years of actual playing time. The guys he drafted last year will have a year under their belt. Every year that we move forward from this point on should just get better and better.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 10:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So I shouldn't watch the rest of the game?
After perusing the game thread, I'll consider the afternoon better spent where I was and just delete the game, unwatched.
So who should we draft with our high first round pick? O-line? (Can we just buy someone else's?)
by AirHead on Dec 9, 2007 6:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
More Bulding
Also, KCStar reports that the Chiefs haven't lost 6 in a row since '98, Schotty's last season.
But I'd like to make sure everyone knows that Edwards has done way better in his time here than that scumbag, Vermeil, who thinks he can skate by with a 13-3 record and a good coaching record.
By the way, good news, Herm-defenders! Whitlock supports you!
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 6:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Hey guys
Denver saw this first hand twice this year, against SD and DET, and both times we felt like we were the worst team in the league. This game was lost by you guys just before the first half was over. Everything before that is fair grounds for criticism, but everything after....just forget about it if you can. By that point the thing was spiraling out of control. If we had tried to throw a TD with an OL to another OL it would have worked flawlessly. On the other hand if you had tried a short run up the middle it would have been intercepted. Do you see what I mean?
That being said, except for one drive, you guys had a pretty crappy first half...
by Jeremy Bolander on Dec 9, 2007 6:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
how many
I hate just looking at Croyles numbers when I cant watch the game becuase I know the offensive line and receiving core is insanely mediocre/below average.
I think Croyle has absloutely every passing tool any QB in the draft this year has, and to waste a first round pick on a QB should be insulting to cheifs fans if that what they actually decide to do. They need an o-lineman, just look what happened for the Browns' offensive line in one season? They drafted Joe Thomas and signed that guy fromt eh Bengals and wham, theyre an instant playoff team with the same coaching staff and basically the same team otherwise (they have a new corner, Eric Wright, and Derek Anderson was on the team last year, where he beat us if you dont remember).
Offensive line needs to be our BIGGEST concern, then defensive backs. Our QB/RB/WR situation is largely squared away with Smith/Johnson and Bowe/Kennison/Gonzalez for a couple more years.
Im telling you, Croyle is the man.
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 8:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
At one point
by Joel Thorman on Dec 9, 2007 8:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I gotta say
Of course, the fact that we're looking up to the Browns makes me want to kill myself, but still!
Well done! Maybe I can get behind Jake Long after all!
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
wha?
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't worry
You're holding up our little dance. You're doing everything right. You're Herm. I'm the players.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
HERM IS THE DEVIL
Those 40+ players are pure as the wind driven snow.
Way to go.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Look
Can we take it down a notch? Because I'm pretty sure Chris would agree that new readers or TWSS or anybody else visiting would want to just read you and I going at each other personally.
For what it's worth, I'm sorry for aiming any comments directly at you.
I don't take pot shots at Edwards for fun.
I'm seriously, honestly worried as a devoted Chiefs fan about the direction of my favorite team in the world. And that concern is rooted in many ways with the head coach. I don't feel like we're losing because of just the O-line (God knows they're part of it, though), or Ty Law's age, or Terry's newfound problem.
Also, I didn't realize he was Pro-Bowl. I was legitimately wrong on that and I'm sorry.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Mawk
My view of his past record and what he's done with the Chiefs gives me reason for hope.
It's just the difference in our personal views.
I would like to agree to give up the cheap shots and actually talk about things logically. It's not going to change your view of Herm, nor is it going to change my patience to let things develop, but I personally enjoy it more than just trading pot shots.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 8:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
So riddle me this.
I take my frustrations out on Edwards through jokes because, if we can't laugh at this season, I may set fire to everything Chiefs' related I own and start posting YouTube videos of me stabbing a Herm Edwards voodoo doll. And I don't want to go down that lonely road.
Rationally, if he wants to earn my trust, he needs to do something other than draft well and dish sound bytes. He needs to demonstrate that he can field a winner. He needs to get his record above .500. He needs to take responsibility for what happens on the field.
If you check the live game thread, when he was going for it on 4th down, down 14-0, I was thrilled with him. I was supporting him.
And then the whole offense did what its' been doing.
I'm not willing to give him a pass for not making whatever personnel decisions were necessary to not have this season occur.
He needs to be responsible for his part. Once he is, we can move to loading up an Amtrak train with Turley and the majority of the O-line, along with Drummond and shipping them far, far, far, far away.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
response
The perspective is, Herm took over a team that everyone knew needed to be rebuilt from the ground up. Horrible defense, decaying offense.
By the beginning of Herms third year (next season) 9/10 of the team will have been completely replaced meaning only 2 or 3 guys will be left over from the previous head coach... after only 3 drafts.
That is amazing if you think about it. That those players weren't just replaced because they weren't "Herms guys" but because they were either bad players, retired, or became ineffective due to age.
The patience comes from this:
I knew when Vermeil retired (which I think is why Vermiel quit, he knew the state the team was in) that the Chiefs were going to lose for a couple years because the team was drained of talent. So nothing is happening that I didn't expect.
Herm does stupid things. But I find it hard to REALLY evaluate Herm with the team as bad as it is. It's like trying to evaluate Croyle with no running back and no offensive line. The results are skewed.
So will Herms scheme work? Does he have what it takes to take the Chiefs to the Super Bowl? I don't know. But I'm patient enough to give him and Croyle, a legitimate shot at success before throwing him under the bus.
"What in his past record and what he's done give you hope?"
We've talked about it before, and they are things that don't impress you. Take away his last season with the Jets where half the team was on IR (and no reasonable person could expect any team to do well in that situation) and he DID have a winning record.
He took his team to the playoffs 3 out of 5 years. I know going to the playoffs doesn't impress Chiefs fans anymore, but for a guy in his first head coaching job to do that IS impressive. He also won playoff games in 2 of those 3 years. That's 1 less playoff win in 5 years than ALL Chiefs head coaches, including Shottenheimer and Vermeil have had in 37 years.
So there ARE things to be optimistic about. Most of all, that he did this in the first 5 years of his career as head coach. Coaches learn too. Dungy didn't have a dynamic offense when he was coach at Tampa Bay. But look at the Colts now. He coached, he learned, he changed his thinking. This is possible for Herm too. Whether he makes that adjustment remains to be seen, but even if he wanted to right now, he doesn't have the personnel to do it.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Now
I was willing to be patient with him through wins and losses as long as we headed in the right direction. But it still feels like we're not. I don't know about you, but today got me right back where I was. I was trying to move on from the Edwards debate, to get off of it, to just evaluate players.
And then today happened.
I just think that Dungy produced better teams in Tampa than Herm did in New York.
I also like touchdowns. I'm partial to them. I think they make winning much easier.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:41 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Like touchdowns
The team is simply incapable of making it happen. And thats players AND coaches. Its something that has been a problem all year and isn't likely to change the rest of the season.
As I've said all along, there are pieces missing. You can have a car, but if its missing spark plugs or gas, it won't work.
The pieces are players. O-line, Cornerback, return man.
The pieces are also coaches. Solari (Offense), Pfeifer (special teams).
Edwards is the driver. He MIGHT be a really bad driver. He also might be a really awesome stunt driver. But if the car he's driving doesn't have spark plugs or gas, you really don't know and can just go by what your personal opinion of his is.
Thats where we have a problem.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 9:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
We got outplayed
Embarrassing day to be a Chiefs fan.
by Joel Thorman on Dec 9, 2007 8:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Motivation?
- Our offense was just about doomed from the get-go because our already below-average o-line is nicked, and we were playing the backups at tackle, which has probably been our weakest spot on the line. So, we have to keep that in perspective.
- Our return game continues to be absolutely horrible. I think that on 3 of the returns our man was tackled from behind. Webb, Kennison, and I think I saw Sapp on one as well. I also got a kick out of of Kris Wilson whiffing on a block, resulting in one of the pitiful returns being blown up before it even started. Where have we seen Wilson suck at blocking before? Why is he still on this team?
- The most glaring problem that I could see was on the determination, or lack thereof, that the defense had. Many, many times our defenders would approach a tackle as if just hitting the guy would mean he would fall down. Whereas the Denver offensive players were fighting through tackles (and making us miss), and refusing to go down. I would be very curious to see what the YAC (both catch and contact) was for denver's offense.
Whether our D is supposed to be good now, given the talent that it possesses, or is in rebuilding mode just like the offense, I think it should be absolutely unacceptable for the D to not come out and have a hard-hitting mentality. Defense is supposed to be the strength of the team, but there was an absolute lack of toughness on display from the beginning of the game.
That, my fellow fans, is in my opinion the biggest knock on all the coaches. Herm. Gun. Krumrie (he's d-line, right?). Peterson (yes, i know he's not a coach). etc. The whole organization. If the front office can't get the team to play with attitude, that is the unforgivable flaw.
by thehulk on Dec 9, 2007 8:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Part of it is
But 7 first downs is unimaginably bad. There are going to be times when we HAVE to score some points.
I don't know if have any idea how to do that?
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 8:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I would definitely say
- O-line - Ours just flat plain ol sucks. Everyone knows it and it needs no further explanation.
- Coach??? - I know you can get a coach through the draft or free agency, but we HAVE to start looking elsewhere. Some people put all the blame on Herm, others none of it. The truth is in the middle, as not all of this is Herms fault. The team he inherited WAS old, but there is no excuse for the performance he has turned in thusly, and his past resume bears no indications that things will get better barring MAJOR staffing mix-ups.
- Defensive secondary - We've been getting torched for sometime through the air by young and/or mediocre quarterbacks, with Cutler joining a long list today. Law is about done, Surtains in the later part of his career as well (11 yrs is forever), and while I like Pollards potential, Im still not personally sold on him. I do feel like Page is here to stay. We might be okay in the secondary next year, and maybe even alright the year after that, but in 3 yrs if it goes unadressed we're screwed.
- Defensive Line - Gave up stupid amount of yards even just today. Raiders game was great example. While Jared Allen is a staight stud, we're not that hard to run on, and teams dont have a hard time protecting their QBs against us consistently.
- Quarterback - Ive said it before and I'll say it again; Brodie is the man of the future, and I truly beleive he can one day match Trent Green in his prime. He can make all the passes, has a great deep arm when he has time, and is more mobile than Green was. The problem is he might be a little fragile and we'll need a SOLID back up qb. Huards got his 8 jillionth birthday coming up, and Thigpen isnt a #2 QB. I think that one of the major QBs this year has the potential to fall drastically (Reese, Ainge, maybe even Brennan), and I think that all three are destined to be career back ups, and theyd look good in KC red. Remember, Croyle was projected as the 3rd QB in the draft for most of the season, and had better numbers against better competition, outplayed Cutler in the Senior Bowl, and still was drafted after QBs John Beck, Tavaris Jackson, and Kellen Clemons. Any of these guys should be looked at seriously if still available in the 3rd rd or later, but no earlier.
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 8:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
i havent seen you before...
in any case, this is basically my view to the tee. herm definitely deserves some blame, he is the coach of a team that is quitting on him and just lost 41-7 to a division rival, and refuses to take any blame.
still, it is unfair to lump it all on him. for one, and i know MAWK will love this, dick vermeil didnt exactly leave with an abundance of youth, and herm has had to rebuild this team. this offseason will be more than crucial for him, we need to get rid of the dead weight on our roster (wesley, bell, wilson, drummond, huard, law, surtain) and pick up improvements.
if we compete next year, with what should be a young team, he deserves another year or two. if not, maybe he should go bye bye.
oh, and carl can leave at any time too...
but, back to your post. i agree on all 5 points 100%, good intelligent post.
by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 9:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, Im new
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 9:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree with TWSS
Only thing I really disagree on is that if we get in the top 5, not drafting a QB if McFadden is gone is going to be our Sam Bowie moment.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
When
The QB is there, the WRs are there, the RBs are definitely there. Now we need a line to help open things up and keep the passing and rushing games consistant and complementing each other.
And MAWK, I disagree with you. There is no reason any team should ever score 41 pts on you. I dont care if youre playing the Patriots. 41 pts is a ridiculous number. A BAD day should be 34 maybe. Never 40+.
You cant expect to win if you give up 41.
And after all....
YOU PLAY! TO WIN! THE GAME!
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 8:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
my concern
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
He just needs time in the pocket. Smith will keep the defenders honest as well I beleive, only helping us stretch the field even more.
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 9:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh we all know
And seriously, this draft class is LOADED with QBs.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Well my point is
That all being said, we ought not go for any of them. I like the Longs or Sedrick Ellis and think we have both the need and a realistic chance at them both being available.
I think it wise to use free agency more than draft to fix the o-line situation. O-linemen bust as much or more than any position around.
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 9:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed again.
i have loved woodson all year, and he would be the ONLY qb who i would take with our 1st round pick. i would LOVE to get a brennan or ainge or someone in the 2nd or 3rd round, but i dont want us to reach in the first round for a brohm or ryan.
add sedrick ellis or glenn dorsey and our defense gets a helluva lot better.
by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 10:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
oh, and i semi-agree on the o line.
by rockchalk on Dec 9, 2007 10:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Croyle
His injury history is what kept him from being a first round prospect. He was expected to go early in the second round.
If he can stay healthy, the Chiefs got a steal getting him in the third round.
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 10:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I posted this question
Do we owe it to Tony to trade him to a contender?
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 9:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
We owe it to him
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 9:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
Embarrassing..........
I couldn't bear to watch the last quarter-and I haven't missed a down of Chiefs Football in 10 years.
Herm and Solari should be raked over the coals-losing to a sub average Donkey team.
Our Offensive Line is awful........Brodie may or may not be the answer, but we've got to get him 3 seconds to look down the field.
Is it ironic that LJ is nowhere to be found?
(no wonder he held out for mad cash).
Embarrassing-but it could always be worse (could be a Dolphins or a Raider fan).
C'mon guys...give us something to look forward to next year...
by tkaufmann on Dec 9, 2007 9:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Could be worse?
I think we could take the fins though...
I think
by wohs145 on Dec 9, 2007 9:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
I almost
http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamresults.aspx?team=16
to sum it up, we're spending 27 million more this season than we did last season, and 31 million more than we did in 2003.
Wow.
Also, according to ESPN, Larry Johnson is projected to make $63,300 per carry, and $17,852 for every yard.
Mmmmmm.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 10:28 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
cap
But yeah, doesn't look like we're getting our monies worth this year eh?
by DJ on Dec 9, 2007 10:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs
holy crap
by jreads2 on Dec 9, 2007 11:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
I'm aware that
But the browns, by the by, raised their payroll by 13 million compared to last year.
How about the Chargers, who increased theirs by 3 million.
That's right. The San Diego Chargers have 6 mill less in payroll.
I'm pretty sure Carl Peterson is trying to kill the capitalist system.
by Ridiculous Matt on Dec 9, 2007 11:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
Herm Edwards
by mjf5488 on Dec 12, 2007 11:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
not really a fan??
by jreads2 on Dec 13, 2007 9:51 PM CST reply actions 0 recs
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