Morning Update (Officially the Off Season Edition)

by Chris Thorman on Dec 31, 2007 5:33 AM CST in 2007 Campaign Comment 33 comments

Arrowhead Addict starts a healthy debate about Larry Johnson's value to the Chiefs.
We couldn't have gotten Dwayne Bowe five more yards? Bowe ends a great rookie season with 995 yards receiving.
Tony Gonzalez ends his season with the most touchdown receptions by a tight end and the all-time reception record by a tight end. Congrats to TG. Would he trade it all for a Super Bowl ring?
KC Chiefs Fanatic breaks down yesterday's game and caps off the 2007 season.
The Titans snagged the final AFC playoff spot with their win over the Colts last night.
If you thought any other outcome than this one was going to happen, you were a bit crazy - Peterson says he and Edwards will return.

A few stats from yesterday's game:

Croyle 20/43, 195 yards, 1 TD
Battleship 13 rushes, 44 yards
Allen 2 sacks
219 total yards by the team

So that's it, huh?

In a strange way, I'm a bit relieved to not have to watch the Chiefs on Sunday. Of course, I watch every game and love every second of it. But as this year wore on, the Chiefs looked like they needed to be put out of their misery and the Jets did just that in overtime yesterday.

Ten points in our final game. The Chiefs scored their fewest points in a full season in thirty years. At least you can say the Chiefs were consistent.

Little did I know that as Arrowhead Pride entered its second full season of coverage that we would now be presiding over the corpse of the worst Chiefs season since Carl Peterson took over the team. Much more to come later but for now...

2007 Kansas City Chiefs RIP

Now turn your excitement towards finding out whether we pick 4th or 5th in the 2008 draft.

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Ordinarily that would be cause for excitement

but considering the same dunderheads and incompetents that put this team together will also be conducting the 2008 draft, I see no reason for optimism.

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 8:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I have to say

that I think Herm Edwards knows what he's doing when it comes to the draft. I'm excited.

by Chris Thorman on Dec 31, 2007 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ditto

I just thought of this...now I know that Surtain and Law are worn down and need to go, but if you really think about it, they are not the weakest spot on our defense (at least not in regards to the win/loss column/..let me explain). Our weak play at CB let the Packers come back on us. Can anyone think of another game where the CB's alone (or nearly alone) lost it for us? There are probably a few more, but I can think of at least 4 of our losses that were directly the result of our run defense being absolutely embarrassed - yesterday's game, the TENN game, the last OAK game, the second half of our loss to the Chargers, the Lions game...the list goes on and on. We flat out sucked against runs between the tackles, some of which could be due to the system as our Middle and Weak LB's are great in coverage but a bit on the small side, but it is more a reflection of our defensive tackles' inability to occupy o-linemen and keep them off of our LB's. Tank really needs to improve in the offseason and I think we need to add another high caliber DT through the draft or FA. Hali showed a lot of improvement in the last few weeks, especially against the run (I think injuries hampered him a bit early this season) and of course Allen is a monster, but we HAVE to be able to stop the run if we are going to go .500 next year, much less make it to the post-season. Well, the point of all this is that I think we need to draft a top of the line DT more than we need a CB...let the debate ensue.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 8:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

based on WHAT?

Herm's great eye for offensive talent? The knockout that last year's draft was?

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry but after seeing Herm's old team

and his present team, I have to ask....BASED ON WHAT????

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Late draft pick ups

Like Jarrad Page, for example.

by Chris Thorman on Dec 31, 2007 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

who can't cover half the field

and keeps coming up the field on play action fakes no matter how bad the fake?

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No matter what

Its early to be judging drafts. I thought the wisdom was wait until three years out?

by Chris Thorman on Dec 31, 2007 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I call shenaigans

Page has badly blown 2 play-actions that I can think of, one by a good QB (Culpepper, and Ty Law bit on that fake too) and one by a great QB (Favre). That of course, is the goal of a play-action pass, and if the safeties don't bite on it, fantastic for the defense, bad for the offense. Page is not a great free safety (yet), and I don't think anyone is claiming that. But any 7th rounder who starts in his second year is a steal, no matter what. By your logic, since we have play-action faked Jon Lynch all over the place, he is a horrible safety. not true, we just ran the ball, so he had to repect that, and then we used Tony to embarrass him - it happens to good and great safeties all the time. Hell, we even did it to Bob Sanders this year.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

we don't just need a starting safety in Cover 2

2, he pretty much needs to be GREAT. And a slow, bad tackling easily faked free safety is not one of them.

Neither is Pollard, who whiffs on a ton of tackles, comes up any time the QB starts moving, and is looking more and more like warmed over Bennie Thompson

I'm sorry. They are NOT good football players.

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Patience is required.

All young players take time to develop. They develop much faster when they're on the field than sitting on the bench.

Players that become superstars their first season are extremely rare.

We need to have more patience as fans. Especially going into next year where 90% of the team will be made up of players with 3 years or less experience.

by DJ on Dec 31, 2007 1:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

90% may be an underestimate :)

I wouldn't be too surprised if, not counting Tony G, Donnie Edwards and Brian Waters, Jared Allen (next year will be his fifth, right?) was the oldest guy on the team come 2008.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Realistically

Realistically you have guys that didn't play real great last year but will surely be back anyway. Napolean Harris, Damion McIntosh, Alfonso Boone played well and will be back.

I'm sure Surtain or Law, one or the other (but not both) will be back.

Ummm, probably will get a free agent or two. But thats probably about it.

by DJ on Dec 31, 2007 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Herm can draft

he may not be able to do anything else well, but he can evaluate talent, so don't start knocking him on that (right now it's about the only bright spot for the Chiefs) 4 of the 2006 draftees are starting (Hali, Croyle, Page, and Pollard) with Webb and Stallings on the active roster (for now). 2007 draft is almost the same, with Bowe and Smith already standing out, Turk and Tank contributing (though I hope they both improve in their second year much as Page and Pollard did) and Taylor and Allan on the active roster. 2 Drafts with 2 5th round busts Marcus Maxey (who?) and Medlock (unforeseeable) and, I believe, two 7th round steals in Page and Allan...I'll take that kind of draft success any day...some teams in the last two years have 2nd and 3rd rounders who aren't even in the NFL today. Let's keep up the optimism heading into free agency and the 2008 draft.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Turk and Tank have one barely competent

tackle in front of them, Boone, and neither can beat him out, or start on the other side, where we pretty much have placeholders. That does not fill anyone with confidence.

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 12:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

RE

Could part of that be the transition from college to the NFL? How many rookie defensive tackles start in this league?

by Chris Thorman on Dec 31, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

how many of them have no one in front of them?

either play them, or don't

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Mario Williams

was the first pick in the draft, a d-lineman, and sucked so badly his first year that most people wanted to get rid of him, figuring he was a bust...then came his second year when until yesterday's game he was ahead of Jared Allen in sacks. Because of that I am not ready to bail on Turk and Tank that quickly. And yes I agree they should have started...all season long I hated that half-ass "rebuilding but still playing old farts so we can win" strategy. As soon as we were eliminated from the playoffs, every young guy on the team should have been getting serious reps, not necessarily starting, but gaining valuable experience and receiving real-game evaluation.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 12:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

we can agree on that

if they were any good, they should have been playing

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Re: Herm's Drafting

It's ridiculous to pull the "State of the Herm Edwards Team" argument just by looking at the Jets/Chiefs game.

Mangini came in and dismantled Herm's team because he wanted to run a spread offense and a 3-4. Don't blame Herm because he didn't draft Mangini 3-4 personnel--that's just plain ridiculous.

As for the current state of the Chiefs, Herm is doing exactly what Mangini is doing to the Jets. Arguably, he's had a tougher job because Vermeil didn't leave behind a deep team nor did he leave behind much young talent.

What bothers me about this argument is in one case, you're blaming the preceding head coach (Herm) for not leaving a good enough team behind, and on the flipside you're blaming the incoming coach (Herm) for not building a team fast enough. You can't have it both ways.

by chiefzilla on Dec 31, 2007 9:52 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Thank you

I see no reason that the second year guys in 2008 (Bowe, Tank, Turk, Smith, et al.) won't improve at least as much as Hali, Croyle, Pollard, Webb have this year (not that Webb is the next Moss, but he was a non-factor his rookie year, and I think, did enough to win the number 2 away from Parker, at least until we draft a WR)

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 10:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is...

Croyle's record as a starter? Quarterback of the future? Who else is wishing we could have held on to Todd Collins?

by HIV 2 Elway on Dec 31, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not me

like Huard, there is a reason Collins wasn't a starter for most of his career.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tired of hindsight

Give me a break. Todd Collins held a clipboard for years. There was a reason he was a backup to begin with.

Damon Huard had a great year last year, but was bad this year.

Its EASY to look back and say should have. Much more difficult to try to guess at the future without a crystal ball.

Regardless, the Chiefs are bad this year not because of Croyle (or at least not JUST because of Croyle) but because there are gaping holes on this team.

By the time they get the holes filled Collins and Huard will be in nursing homes. Croyle will just be hitting his stride.

We need to forget about winning from year to year until rebuilding is done. Player development right now is vastly more important than winning games. Once the holes are filled and the players know what they're doing, we can go back to demanding wins again.

by DJ on Dec 31, 2007 1:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

so what you're really saying is that Webb is not

really a #2.

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No I don't think he is

but I also don't think anyone expected him to be, not with a 6th round pick. Just making the active roster and then playing something more than special teams is a step in the right direction for a 6th rounder.

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 12:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

regrettably, you need to be more than a placeholde

to be a good NFL caliber #2. See Samie Parker

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 1:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+1.

by rockchalk on Dec 31, 2007 1:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Speaking of Player Development

I know it isn't this black and white but for the sake of argument let's say there are speed WR's, possession WR's, and the very few great ones, we can call balanced WR's. Maybe I am mistaken, but weren't both Parker and Webb supposed to be speed guys?

by PVChiefsfan on Dec 31, 2007 2:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Parker was. I don't think that Webb

was anything more than a possession receiver

by sm7600 on Dec 31, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Parker for sure was

He ran track at Oregon too. Not sure about Webb other than he went to school with Herm's son I believe.

by Chris Thorman on Dec 31, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rounds 1 and 2

I think the Chiefs should trade their second-round pick and Brodie Croyle to the Browns for Brady Quinn. The Browns already have a quality starting quarterback in Anderson, so they would be getting a decent backup in Croyle and a second-round pick that could help them get to the next level, as they're really close to being a good team now.

From the Chiefs' perspective, this would be a bit of a gamble, but I think Quinn may be a top quarterback someday, but Croyle certainly won't be. And this way they would still be able to use their first-round pick for an elite offensive tackle.

Just a thought. And if the Browns are hesitant, throw in Carl Peterson and Kris Wilson to sweeten the deal.

Suprenant Nation

by Leon Suprenant on Dec 31, 2007 4:10 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

i think

It's a bit premature to sing the praises of an unproven Brady Quinn (I suppose he kind of proved himself in mop-up time in the preseason?) and throw Brodie Croyle under the bus because he was unable to have enough time in the pocket to get rid of the ball. Put anyone behind a line that allows 50+ sacks in a season and you're going to have an unproductive QB. Can't give up on the kid just because there's no talent in front of him, for some other unproven guy just because his draft stock out of college was higher and gasp he went to Notre Dame because he's probably Joe Montana.

by The DBowe Show on Dec 31, 2007 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs