Kansas City Chiefs 4th loss in a row benefits the Oakland Raiders

We haven't lost 3 straight at home

since 2001. This is our 4th home loss this season. And the game was almost blacked out. What is going on?

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 3:58 PM CST reply actions

CHIEFS LOSING AGAIN!!!

I am tired of watching Herms conservative losing. He puts the team in a terrible situation every week. I think they would play better with out a coach they couldn't play any worse. The defense no matter how good they are. Has not won any games for us this year. We will never be able to beat any one with this conservative nonsense Coaching of Herm Edwards. It is so boring To watch. I have been a chiefs Fan For 30 + years and this is as bad as I Can remember. I can't stand watching them any more, He is the worst Coach Period!!!

by Aritz1 on Nov 25, 2007 9:13 PM CST up reply actions

Herm was not conservative this game.

I'm tired of listening to people gripe about Herm when its not his fault. There are plenty of times that it IS his fault, but lay the blame where it actually belongs.

Herm went for it on 4th down twice today.

The guy you should be screaming for is Rayner. Hes the guy that has been missing field goals and forcing Edwards to attempt 4th down instead of having a reliable kicker he could depend on when the game was on the line.

Bad field goal kicking is the difference between the Chiefs being where we are now and first in our division.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 10:26 PM CST up reply actions

A sub-par offensive line

makes it difficult to do anything on offense. QB has no time to pass. No running game. It all starts with the line.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 11:00 PM CST up reply actions

No running game?

were you watching the same game as I was? Kolby Smith was the leading rusher in the league yesterday

by PVChiefsfan on Nov 26, 2007 7:23 AM CST up reply actions

You

know it does not matter what players we put on the field,bad coaching will lose us a lot of games.That is why we are losing bad coaching all the way around.

by Eric @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 4:06 PM CST reply actions

Rayner is to blame, not Edwards

How is Edwards to blame for this loss? Aside from the timeout gaffe, what did he do wrong?

Even the timeout thing didn't matter because our defense couldn't stop the Raiders from getting first downs. It doesn't matter if you have 10 timeouts if you can't stop them from getting first downs.

Edwards didn't miss the field goal.

If Rayner makes the two field goals he missed last week, the Chiefs beat Super Bowl Champs Indianapolis Colts. If he makes the 1 field goal today, the Chiefs are tied and would have won because Edwards would have kicked a field goal instead of going for it on 4th and 1.

We have a guy that the coach can't put faith in that he's gonna make it.

Rayner is to blame for this loss. No one else.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 5:28 PM CST up reply actions

Herm

You must be Herm's only friend about now.

by Aritz1 on Nov 25, 2007 9:15 PM CST up reply actions

Excuses

Sorry, we mismanaged the clock, didn't take the field goal, didn't open up the offense, and didn't make defensive adjustments at halftime.

We'll go ahead and put the counter up. Let's see how many times we as fans make excuses for Edwards.

Also, if Rayner had been forced to make the kick and missed, it would have been his fault. This is not college. You take the field goal, play defense. We ain't the Patriots.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 25, 2007 10:12 PM CST up reply actions

a

How bout we put the counter up to see how many times Edwards is blamed for things that aren't his fault?

He's the coach standing on the sideline. You can be the most brilliant coach in the world, but if your players don't execute, you get blamed.

People complain about Edwards beind too conservative, and when he does something risky, he's crucified for that too.

His kicker missed 2 field goals last week that cost us the game. He missed one today. There was absolutely no guarantee he would have made it that time.

If they had kicked and missed or made the field goal to tie the game, but then the Raiders came back and kicked a 60 yard field goal (which their kicker can absolutely do) everyone would be complaining that hes too conservative and not "playing to win the game".

The guy simply can't win.

He makes his share of stupid decisions. But don't lay all the blame on him when its the players fault.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 10:33 PM CST up reply actions

Honestly

if you want to continue supporting Edwards, that's cool. If you want to say "I want to give him (X) more years." That's okay. I can respect that. It does take time to set up a system. And I can understand that. We're not very talented offensively.

But I'm going to start a clock, and you should too, for games like this. If we have one of these every now and again, fine. He's getting too much criticism. But I don't think we'll have one every once in a while.

If he had kicked the field goal and the Raiders would have marched downfield, I would have blamed the defensive personnel. There's a reason I said in the live thread "Kick the freaking thing" before the play.

But what I've gotten tired of is this attitude around here that somehow, because Edwards gets a lot of criticism, he doesn't deserve it. I'm not calling for him to be fired. (Although I will say again that Bill Cowher is available...)But he deserves the credit when he coaches well and the blame when he coaches badly.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 25, 2007 11:21 PM CST up reply actions

Bill Cowher = Marty

I would love if Cowher came to KC. Wasn't he an assistant or something here?

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 11:30 PM CST up reply actions

Better

he's Marty who knows how to open up an offense and win playoff games.

But hey, we've got a sub .500 coach that's managed to eliminate our home field advantage and render our offense the equivalent of an impotent quadriplegic. But he fixed our defense (that was already improving before, thanks to Gunther)!

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 25, 2007 11:40 PM CST up reply actions

Blame

Oh theres plenty of time Edwards is to blame for dumb decisions. I hate getting in debates like this where I look like Edwards fanboy because I'm not.

But I think he is doing some good things with the team, like playing Croyle and having amazing success in the draft, that are causing some pain right now but will make the Chiefs the dominant force year after year they were in the 90s.

Once we get to that point, then we can critique stupid after-the-fact calls and armchair QB to our hearts content just like we did with Marty. But until that point, lets have some patience.

Nothing is happening we didn't already expect when Vermeil retired and a new coach was being brought in. Its just that now we're having to experience it.

Surgery is painful, but you're better off having gone through the pain after its over.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 7:38 AM CST up reply actions

My problem is

that it feels like we came in for surgery to repair a knee and we woke up with both legs amputated.

And a syringe stuck in our eye.

And the only thing we have is some guy standing over us saying everything's fine, dishing out cliches, and blaming the nurse.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions

I can see that

We are worse off now in the kicking dept.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 26, 2007 10:35 AM CST up reply actions

He's turned the defense around

About that offense...

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 4:13 PM CST reply actions

Again

does no one see that the defense was turning before Edwards hit town?

I'm willing to credit him with the system and development of the defense, but to say it was all him is a bit much.

Again, Chris, Primetime, TWSS, isn't it time to at least turn down the "Herm's our guy! Leave him alone!" Youtubey goodness a bit?

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 25, 2007 4:20 PM CST reply actions

Agree

Herm has very little to do with our 10th ranked defence. By the way our defence is only good until its clutch time. Look at the Green Bay and Oakland game, our defence got speared by the passing, and running game. Are theese big-fast safties really that good?

xX Ram-Bowe Xx

by D Thomas on Nov 25, 2007 4:25 PM CST up reply actions

I don't buy the "clutch" theory

Our defense came up pretty big in the San Diego game. I'd give Herm a good deal of credit for our defensive turn around, but mostly for his recruiting and drafting of Allen, Hali, Tyler, and McBride. Gunther and Donnie Edwards have a lot to do with it too. However, he obviously is buddy buddy with Ty Law, I'm assuming it's the veteran DB thing, and that's hurting us because Law obviously does not get the job done tackling or in coverage.

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 25, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions

drafting

Technically Allen was drafted under Vermeil, but your point is well made.

Defense in alot of places is young. Just like with a rookie QB, your young Defensive players are going to screw up and sometimes be inconsistent.

The Herm-haters will blame Edwards for everything regardless. But the coach stands on the sideline. It's the players on the field that have to execute.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 5:48 PM CST up reply actions

What exactly

has Herm done that's impressed you so much? Let Gunther continue to improve the defense? Made our offense a joke? Mismanaged the personnel on the O-line, causing spontaneous, unexpected retirements? How about getting into the situation we're in with LJ? Or Huard?

What has he done to garner so much love and trust from you?

The players on the field have to execute, but they have to have a chance to execute first.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 25, 2007 10:25 PM CST up reply actions

Cut Herm some slack, we're rebuilding

It's not that hes impressed me as that some people have such a dislike for the man that he can do nothing right. It's like the people that think Carl Peterson is the worst human being on Earth. Completely unreasonable.

People unfairly compare the Chiefs under Herm to the Chiefs under Vermeil. You can't do that because the team was ravaged when Vermeil left because of the all out attempt for a championship (which failed).

What do you mean Herm caused "spontaneous, unexpected retirements" on the O-line?? Roaf and Shields were talking about retirement 2 years before Vermeil retired. Roaf retired right after Edwards was named Head Coach.

This is what I'm talking about with people being unreasonable and blaming Herm for things that aren't remotely related to him.

Herm didn't destroy our O-line. It is the result of Vermeil obssessing about his poor defense and drafting poor defensive lineman to boost it for one last season rather than drafting O-linemen to train for the future as the Chiefs had always done in the past and be ready to replace Roaf and Shields when they retired.

What situation with LJ are you talking about? Did Herm run out on the field and trip him? It's Herms fault he got hurt? Damn Herm for drafting Kolby Smith in the 5th round! 150 yards in his first game! Yeah, he's terrible.

You know that I've supported Croyle all along, but we don't know what the coaches were seeing in practice. What would have happened if they put Croyle in before he was ready and instead of blaming our bad O-line, all the blame was put on him instead? Then he may have been the one being pulled so Huard could provide a spark. Where would that put the future of the Chiefs?

We can armchair QB all year long. Herm has made bad decisions in my opinion, but its rediculous to blame him for things that are either out of his hands or a result of a player failing to perform his responsibilities.

Roaf and Shields retiring. Not Herms fault.

Not having enough draft picks to replace Hall of Fame linemen in 2 drafts because he had to rebuild from the ground up the worst defense in the NFL. Not Herms fault.

Kicker that can't make a 30 yard field goal. Not Herms fault (unless he doesn't replace him soon, then it will be his fault).

You want to talk about legitimate things that Herm has done bad like not firing the guy in the booth that keeps telling him to challenge these stupid plays that aren't even close or not firing Solari or not even trying to get a first down on 3rd and long situations, I'll be happy to rant with you.

But EVERYONE knew that when Vermeil retired, the team was in really bad shape age-wise and defense-wise and that the team was going to have to go through a rebuilding phase that was going to be ugly at times.

Thats where we are now. Rebuilding. And it is ugly. We knew we were going to have losing records. We expected one last year but ended up going to the playoffs instead.

So come talk to me if we still have a losing record after we're finished rebuilding. But don't criticize the man for having a losing record when we knew we would have anyway.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 10:54 PM CST up reply actions

I could give a damn

about the record.

I knew we'd have a losing record. I hope we get a top 5 pick. We need the talent. Sneaking into the playoffs via a Niners win over the Broncos and getting annihilated in the playoffs isn't going to get a whole lot of "You're doing a great job, Hermie!"s from me.

There's been a lot of talk that the ProBowl O-line was disappointed with Edwards taking the reins and how he handled the players when he came in. Too low expectations. Too much coddling.

We've got a player right now who's on the bench with an injury we know nothing about, who's having a horrific season, showing little effort, blowing up and costing his team penalty yards, all after signing the the largest contract in Chiefs history. And you want me to be say none of this is under Herm's watch?

Not making it a priority to have a special teams unit that can kick field goals and return kicks and punts without fumbling or falling on their face? Herm's fault. That's his job. I'm not expecting Devin Hester. I'm expecting not a joke. I'm not expecting David Akers. I'm expecting a 30 yard field goal to be good.

I don't expect us to be good now. But I want us to be headed in the right direction. I don't see that right now. At all. He took too long getting Croyle in there.

I'm not criticizing the man for having a losing record when we knew we would anyway.

I'm criticizing him for doing a poor job coaching games. Not selecting talent in the draft. Coaching.

And it's fine. We can give him another year, two years, three years, and say "Wait, he's still installing his system! Be patient! It's not his fault! Leave Herm alone! Why won't you just leave him alone!!!!!!!"

But in four years, if we're still as far from a SuperBowl, are you going to wish we had seen the writing on the wall?

Maybe he'll prove me wrong. But I can only go on what I see right now.

It's strange because if a guy can show me promise, I'll stick with him. But right now I've got a coach that has a sub .500 lifetime record, who has mismanaged talent, gutted our offensive scheme and made it into a wheelbarrow with no wheels, and a whole lot of excuses.

Pardon me if I'm not thrilled.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions

Herm

Man if you say Herm can't select talent in the draft, your expectations are way too high.

The Chiefs probably have more players drafted in the last two years starting or at least regularly playing than any other team in the NFL.

That defense that has gone from last to top 10 in the league has NINE guys brought in by Edwards in two years.

Drafted DBowe, Croyle, Kolby Smith. These guys are all new and you never know if they will continue to play at a high level or eventually peter out, but as of right now, they are doing pretty damn good.

The worst thing that happened to the Chiefs since Herm took over is they went to the playoffs last year. That made people think that hey, maybe we're not really rebuilding after all.

But we are rebuilding. The team stinks right now, AS ALL REBUILDING TEAMS DO.

Im not Herms fanboy, look at posts I've made in the past, I criticize him when he makes stupid calls that are the Head Coachs fault.

But Herm couldn't have known that the guy that broke all kinds of records in college would turn into a deer in headlights when he came to the pros. After that he had to pick the best of the kickers no one else wanted. Not an ideal situation regardless.

I find it interesting you are so quick to defend Vermeil, but will not give Herm the same opportunity.

When Vermeil was brought in, the Chiefs gave him everything he wanted and spared no expense making a run for the Super Bowl. He was here 5 years. Would you say that was wasted time that we should regret?

Vermeils record with the Chiefs in his first 2 years: 14-18.

Herm in his two years so far is: 13-14 with 5 games left this season making up for the leagues worst defense and an offense that would see 2 Hall of Fame offensive linemen retire, their star kick returner lose his edge and their pro bowl QB knocked out in his first game as coach and never recover.

If the Chiefs win 2 more games this season, Herm will have a better record the first two games than Vermeil did.

The whole point is, give the guy a chance to right the ship before calling for his job. He has done ALOT of good things for this team that you refuse to look at because you dislike the guy.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 5:34 PM CST up reply actions

First off

you don't know me, so making aspersions about why I do or do not things or who I do or do not like is uncalled for. We don't get personal around here. Not even for "Everything's fine! No panic!" guys like yourself.

One of the things I've said on here consistently is that Herm can draft. I think Herm would make a killer scout. But again, the defense is Gunther's.

I defend Vermeil because the thinking around here seems to be, "Well, Herm Edwards has brought us absolutely nothing, has a career sub .500 mark, has taken our offense into the toilet, but look, Vermeil was way worse!" Vermeil had problems, but at least I always felt like the team was headed in the right direction. You really think those of us that are concerned are all just have a vendetta against the guy? I wanted him to succeed.

I think he would make a terrific scout.

He has yet to prove to me that he can win us a Super Bowl. That's all I care about.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 8:42 PM CST up reply actions

Herm is what the team needs right now

Ok I misread what you said. When you said:

"I'm criticizing him for doing a poor job coaching games. Not selecting talent in the draft. Coaching."

I took that to mean he couldn't select talent in the draft, which I thought was weird. I apologize.

I think we probably agree on alot more than we think.

You think I don't like Vermeil because I blame him for the Chiefs personnel problems right now. I LOVED watching the Chiefs when Vermeil was the coach. I thought we really had a chance to go to the Super Bowl AND WIN. Especially the season we were 13-3.

What you may not understand is I completely supported the sell out of the future for a shot at the Super Bowl. I still think it was the right thing to the do.

The point I am consistently making is that in making that push for the Super Bowl under Vermeil, we mortgaged the future. Now is the future and we are paying for that push we did when Vermeil was the coach.

I defend Edwards not because I think he is a great coach. He obviously has serious clock managment problems, is too loyal to crappy coaches, completely wastes the preseason evaluating talent instead of prepping the team, and many times waits too long to make a change that is needed.

I defend Edwards because I think right now he is getting a raw deal. He's stuck cleaning up the wreckage from the Vermeil era (again, not saying what Vermeil did was wrong, just that it put us in a bad situation afterward) and only 1 1/2 years into it, people are calling for his job.

I honestly think for some people it is just that they don't like Edwards personality. Pretty much everyone liked Vermeil, but as we've seen, Edwards will likely have a better record in his first 2 seasons than Vermeil did.

I don't think Edwards is the greatest coach in the world, and I don't drink the Edwards "Everythings going to be fine" Kool-Aid. But I knew when Vermeil retired, we were in for a couple years of rebuilding and losing seasons, and here we are. It doesn't surprise me.

The thing I like most about Edwards is his ability to see hidden potential in players. Like you say, its the scout in him.

Right now, THAT talent he has is the most important thing to this team that is rebuilding. It doesn't matter if you have Bill Bellicheck or Mike Shannahan as your coach, if you don't have players with talent, you're still going nowhere.

Edwards is finding and bringing out that talent. Thats what we need right now.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 9:06 PM CST up reply actions

See now that?

That's a convincing argument.

I agree that there was going to be payback for the Vermeil shot at the SuperBowl. And I understand that Edwards is making up for those deficiencies. And I would agree that we've made some brilliant choices in personnel. Bringing back Donnie Edwards. Starting Page. Drafting Bowe. I'm pleased with all these decisions.

Yet there is still this problem, where I see us shying away from opportunities to win the game. Indianapolis. Chicago. Denver. Our strategy seems to want to be, "Play defense, get field position. Punch it in." Right now it's "Play defense, get field position, then try and not screw up." And maybe some of that IS the fans. Maybe he's concerned that if he goes for it and Croyle throws a pick or we don't get it, he'll get hammered like he did yesterday. But he didn't get hammered yesterday for going for it. He got hammered for going for it when we were down by 3 and had been hanging in there with the slugfest, and for the clock and TO mismanagement.

I'm not saying the two games are the same, or that Pinkel is an amazing coach, save this season, or that the two teams have anywhere near the same personnel. But... Gary Pinkel used to run the smash mouth, grind it out, make no mistakes offense. Then his offensive coordinator came to him and said, "We don't have the talent to run that. What if we just go wide open?" and it's worked great. Sometimes a change in strategy is necessary for th times.

I don't have faith in Herm's plan. I have faith in Herm's personnel, in Gunther's defense, in the talent we have now, and this organization (though my patience with Peterson is seriously getting to the last few grains of sand).

If Herm can show me that this scheme, this plan, this design can work, and that he's genuinely working for the future and knows what we're doing at QB, RB, and building a Super Bowl winner, I swear, I will back him hardcore.

I'm not looking for victories. I'm looking for a plan that works, and not stubbornness.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 9:35 PM CST up reply actions

See

"Yet there is still this problem, where I see us shying away from opportunities to win the game. Indianapolis. Chicago. Denver. Our strategy seems to want to be, "Play defense, get field position. Punch it in." Right now it's "Play defense, get field position, then try and not screw up." And maybe some of that IS the fans. Maybe he's concerned that if he goes for it and Croyle throws a pick or we don't get it, he'll get hammered like he did yesterday. But he didn't get hammered yesterday for going for it. He got hammered for going for it when we were down by 3 and had been hanging in there with the slugfest, and for the clock and TO mismanagement."

See these are the exact same things I've griped about.

The thing we sometimes forget is that Herm is new to this offense too, and I honestly don't think that he has faith in it yet. I really think we'll see a move to a completely new offensive scheme / coordinator next year.

I think Herm over-coaches sometimes. He knows his players strengths and weaknesses and tries to do things that will promote the strengths and lessen the weaknesses. Sometimes though he is so worried about compensating for the weaknesses he forgets to give them a shot to win the game.

It's like what I said about the Chiefs losing the Indy game because they were so worried about Croyle making a mistake and losing the game they lost it without giving him the chance to win.

Right now he doesn't have any faith in the O-line or our kicker. That puts him in tough situations when you're trying to make a call that the game is riding on.

Herm went for it on 4th and 1 instead of kicking the field goal because his kicker has missed 3 out of his last 5 attempts from short range. They don't make the first down, so Herm is the bad guy for not giving his kicker the chance to kick it and tie the game.

But if Herm had kicked the field goal and Rayner missed it, or even if he had made it but gave the ball back to the Raiders and Janikowski (sp?) kicks a 60 yard field goal to win, Herm is criticized for being too conservative and not playing to win.

Head coaches are put in impossible situations where there really is no winning.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 10:09 PM CST up reply actions

While I agree

that coaches face more criticism than is warranted, I would argue this.

There's always going to be unrealistic criticism of head coaches. But if he had taken the field goal and Rayner missed, I wouldn't blame Herm. He would have done the smart thing, and the thing that meshes with his gameplan.

And I would have defended him to anybody that criticized it. I'm seeing more and more this season that Herm keeps doing things and it almost feels in post game like he's saying "See? I did what you wanted and look what happened!" Even when he's not actually doing those things or only doing them in the worst scenarios. He should just focus on following the plan.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 10:47 PM CST up reply actions

You wouldn't have criticized him

but everyone else would have. If you lose to the Raiders, you're going to get criticized. I think part of the point is that we shouldn't have even been in that position in the first place.

Let's face it, Chiefs fans, and I guess football fans in general, have a short-term memory. The Chiefs have always been "on the cusp" of greatness, or so we've been told by CP, so we don't have much patience for a 4-7 team losing to the Raiders.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 27, 2007 5:25 AM CST up reply actions

Yea but

he completely turned around the offense also.He is behind the times,that 90's style of offense will not cut nowadays.

by Eric @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 4:20 PM CST reply actions

It's no surprise

The Chiefs, as well as anyone, know that when you pay attention to just one side of the ball, you will have an incredibly unbalanced team and that will never work.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 4:22 PM CST reply actions

It is time

for a push for Marty in KC.Stifling defense and he knows you need a wide open offense to keep up!

by Eric @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 4:47 PM CST reply actions

well

looks like San Diego and Denver will go up 2 games on us, so its officially time to re-build.
We had a chance to win the division, but our defence isn't clutch enough to get it done. It seemed like every time the silver and black had the ball they could get into scoring position at will. Im starting to question if Herm edwards is the guy for us. The major problem we have is we need to swap about half of the roster and coaching staff. If we think getting a few offensive linemen is the answere its not going to work. we need :
Db's, A reciever, mabye a QB, O-line, a kicker, coaches, mabye a middle linebacker, and a returner, so Webb doesnt get injured. I think it will take two to three seasons to become a well- rounded team.

xX Ram-Bowe Xx

by D Thomas on Nov 25, 2007 5:01 PM CST reply actions

One last time it's "defense"

At least shorten it to "D-fence" if you insist on not using 's.'

Also, we have a very good receiver, a very promising quarterback and a solid linebacking core.

I will agree that Ty Law missed an inexcusable number of tackles. I also think Solari's "keep it close" gameplans are losing games. Screw "keeping it close," let's let it out and start putting up points.

However, let me make this clear, Damon Huard would not, could not, win that football game today. If you think his body would have made it through the third quarter, much less won the game you must be drunk or insane or possibly both. Terry and Turley should be ashamed to call themselves football players.

It's not time to start clamoring for firing Herm, but this clock-mismanaging martyball offense needs to get fixed.

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 25, 2007 5:37 PM CST up reply actions

Huard

The point is not "Damon would/wouldn't have won the game". Damon may as well be sitting in his living room because unless Croyle gets hurt, we're never seeing him again. That time has passed.

We all knew Croyle or ANY young QB is going to make some mistakes and sometimes have off games.

He didn't have a TERRIBLE game, only threw one interception. But it wasn't very good either. But look at some of the situations he was in. How many 2nd or 3rd and 20s were the Chiefs in because of holding penalties? How many times did he have to scramble because his pass protection broke down?

People that still think we have a shot at going to the playoffs this year are dreaming. This year is all about giving Croyle and the other young guys experience and a chance to learn in the game.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 5:44 PM CST up reply actions

I agree Croyle was decent

But you gotta look at a situation where a veteran Eddie Kennison (I'm about ready to throw him and Ty Law under the washed up bus) runs a too short pattern for an obvious first down play. Then you can't kick a field goal to tie it, and you can't manage to rush for 1 yard because our O line sucks.

We ran a ridiculously conservative game plan on offense, had terrible field position, Rayner was pathetic and Herm made a bonehead call.

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 25, 2007 5:54 PM CST up reply actions

Solari

Was around when this offense was at it,s hey day wide open.Herm is the one who does not want to throw the ball all over the field.He wants a ball control offense even if it sacrifices quick scores,for three and outs.He tries to protect the defense with long drives.Who cares how fast you score just score.Herm is a joke if he was that good he would still be in NY.Remember 4-12 in his last season there,that is where we are headed.He is not the answer here!

by Eric @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 5:53 PM CST up reply actions

Herm

Herm also took the Jets to the playoffs 3 out of 5 years. They won 2 games in the playoffs.

That's something the Herm-haters always neglect to mention.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 11:02 PM CST up reply actions

That's fantastic

2 whole wins? Really? In a division with the Dolphins and Bills? Really? Wow!

Norv Turner has a playoff win! They're both great coaches! Woo-hoo!

Color me unimpressed.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 10:22 AM CST up reply actions

a

How many did Vermeil have as coach of the Chiefs? ZERO.

And don't forget the PATRIOTS in that division.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 5:11 PM CST up reply actions

Leave Herm Alone!

And how dare anyone out there make fun of Herm! He went through Chad Pennington! He played in the same division as the Patriots! He's a human! Herm is giving you all these .500 seasons, and you just write crap about him! And all you want is more yards, more yards, more touchdowns! I don't know why all you people have to pick on Herm! What did he ever do to you! He's trying so hard! All he wants is to run an offense that is in the last 10 in the league and win games by 3 points! And you people hate him! You don't understand! He's way better than that mean old Vermeil that got us to 13-3! He LOST! In the playoffs! To the Colts! They're terrible! Leave Hermey Alone!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 8:49 PM CST up reply actions

Ouch!

The wife and I were at the game with her out-laws. Man, what a dumb game. Kolby showed some good moves but he was about the only plus point.

I'd watch out next week, it might not sell out. If this week was supposedly a sell oout, there were plenty of empty seats!

Blame my wife!

by sir eccles on Nov 25, 2007 5:17 PM CST reply actions

Todays game

For the life of me I couldn't figure out why you guys were so anxious to get rid of Bennett, I now understand. Smith is not a bad back at all (granted our D tends to make every back look like a HOF candidate....lol),he has great feet and is patient.

This game was not that different from the last meeting except we didn't make crunch time,bonehead plays to seal a loss.

The last possession of the game was a thing of beauty and something we have not done in a long time (close out a game).

I have a couple of questions for you guys:

1)Why does it appear Gonzales is under utilized by Croyle? I cant recall a game against the Chiefs where he had fewer balls thrown his way?

2)On my way back from the hotel I heard Herm say
he went for it on 4th down (in 4Q) because he didn't want to "put too much pressure on the kicker"............huh?
I would have gone for it too considering field position,past running success and short distance but NOT to avoid "kicker pressure".
It would seem if that was his mindset a new kicker would be in order?
Your thoughts?
Thank you

"age doesn't creep up on you, faster players do"

by Erock on Nov 25, 2007 5:59 PM CST reply actions

I'll try to answer

Tony Gonzalez was about the only option for Huard. Croyle spreads the ball around a lot more and has developed a little connection with Bowe. Which is fine with me. But, TG is a future HOFer, so we gotta start getting it to him more. It is indeed strange.
Our kicker situation is a really touchy subject. We drafted Justin Medlock from UCLA in the 5th round this year. He didn't work out. So, we signed Rayner. And now a lot of people think he should be replaced. Any time you avoid kicking a 40 yard field goal late in a game, then you've got problems. We certainly do need a new kicker. A long term solution.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 6:09 PM CST up reply actions

Kicker

Thanks for the input.

Was Tynes worse than Rayner? Thinking you would keep Tyner until Medlock was proven. If my memory serves me correctly, Tynes was traded to Giants in the offseason?

I was really surprised by the struggles of Medlock, I watched him at UCLA and he was lights out.

"age doesn't creep up on you, faster players do"

by Erock on Nov 25, 2007 6:42 PM CST up reply actions

Speaking of J-Med...

...anyone else want to see him come back? I mean, he did terrible, but apparently, so did Nugent in NY (at first). And if we're not going to make any field goals anyways, why not show some faith in a kid you invested a draft pick in?

I know it sounds crazy--this all originated from a joke at the stadium that went awry.

by webby37 on Nov 25, 2007 10:53 PM CST up reply actions

Tynes

had his fair share of struggles in KC. But, we thought Medlock was what he was advertised to be. IMO, we're worse off now.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 11:06 PM CST up reply actions

I think he prepared that before

"Not wanting to put pressure on..." was going to be his excuse if Brodie or Kolby choked. Neither did and he had that excuse all prepared for someone so he was nice to Rayner. Kickers are supposed to perform under pressure, Rayner sucks, Herm knows it, I guess we're limited to low pressure field goals from here on out.

Since we've got nothing to lose why not bring Medlock back out, unless we cut him, I mean maybe after blowing it once he'll figure out how to kick.

I think Rayner proved he's done for the season.

by Official Arrowhead Pride Parade on Nov 25, 2007 6:11 PM CST reply actions

Altering your game plan

because your kicker sucks is a huge, huge problem. Unfortunately, with our offense, when we can actually move the ball close enough to FG range, we gotta be able to hit it! We especially need those points. Our defense can usually hold the score down, so those 3 points mean a lot more to the Chiefs than anyone else.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 6:15 PM CST up reply actions

Medlock

Medlock was cut after the first game and is currently sitting on his livng room couch.

I think they may have kept Medlock on the team even after they brought in a new kicker if not for the fact Medlock is Left Footed and most kickers are Right Footed.

Makes is almost impossible for the holder to switch back and forth, so they just let Medlock go and went with the Right Footed kicker.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 8:42 PM CST up reply actions

Medlock

He is currently listed on your practice squad.

"age doesn't creep up on you, faster players do"

by Erock on Nov 25, 2007 10:16 PM CST up reply actions

Ooops

I see others have feelings like mine... my bad for the redundant post.

by webby37 on Nov 25, 2007 10:54 PM CST up reply actions

Medlock

KCChiefs.com does not list him on the practice squad, and he's never been on it.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 11:04 PM CST up reply actions

Practice Squad

BTW, just looking over the practice squad.

8 people on the Practice Squad. SIX are offensive linemen. Anyone still think Herm doesn't know what the teams weakness is?

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 11:06 PM CST up reply actions

Yep

Herm gets blamed for a lot, but you have to develop o-linemen, you usually can't just plug them in.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 11:07 PM CST up reply actions

Fantastic

Edwards has allowed our offensive line to be swiss cheese, but we have tons of depth on the practice squad.

You know, that's actually the Patriots entire gameplan. This whole season? Dependent upon depth in the practice squad line.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 10:25 AM CST up reply actions

practice squad

Todays practice squad could be next years offensive line.

You have to start somewhere. Can't always get instant gratification.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 5:09 PM CST up reply actions

I'm going to go back

and look at how many ProBowl linemen were practice squad guys. Want to make a bet with me?

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 8:50 PM CST up reply actions

Medlock

I stand corrected, I relied on information (and did not verify) from a friend in KC who golfs with him.
I just called my friend and he contends Medlock is still on it, but you are correct he is not listed on the Chiefs website.

"age doesn't creep up on you, faster players do"

by Erock on Nov 26, 2007 8:06 PM CST up reply actions

Well, Chicago came back

I turned off the Denver/Chicago game because I thought it was over, but Chicago came back, with the help of 2 Hester return TDs, to tie the game up. Arizona/San Fran are already in OT, so this will certainly be interesting. I hope Denver tragically loses this game.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 6:40 PM CST reply actions

Overtime

Chicago and Denver heading to overtime.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 6:43 PM CST reply actions

Grossman to Clark

into Denver territory. Inside the 30 now. Get a little closer and let Robbie Gould send the Donks back home.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 6:48 PM CST reply actions

It's good!

Broncos lose!

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 6:50 PM CST reply actions

Eagles

Now we are seeing an agressive game here.The Eagles are playing to win the game.Herm should take a good lesson from this approach by Andt Reid!

by Eric @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 25, 2007 8:36 PM CST reply actions

Gotta take chances against the Pats

Onsides kick, going for it on 4th down in the red zone. If you want to beat them you gotta take a ton of chances, and then have them work out.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 25, 2007 11:08 PM CST up reply actions

Agree-Herm is making us look like idiots......

Folks will say that the Herm Haters will blame him for everything, but let's face the facts:

-He sent an improving Tynes to the Giants for "nothing"-leaving us with the Medlock debacle and now the insuing Maynard issues.

-He let Dante Hall go and planned on having him replaced with.......(insert no one here). We picked up Drummond after Hall was gone and let's face it...the only reason Drummond is on the team is because he's D-Bowe's cousin. He's been nothing short of a bust.

-He's revamped the D-fense and it's come a long way from the Vermeil days. But we have lapses where we can't cover (Ty Law) or we simply miss filling the holes on defense-as apparent today. We let them run all over us and didn't make them pass to win the game (as we should've)

-The Timeout/challenge situation today was awful-just awful and anyone that isn't a Herm hater will agree with me. This isn't the first time that similar situations have forced him to make bad decisions.

-Drafting Bowe was genius.....letting Green go was a good move (long term), but Huard isn't the answer and "what if.....what if, heaven forbid" Croyle isn't the answer? Insert Tyler Thigpen? I wonder if Herm needs to leave the offense to the folks that can run it.

I question Herms ability to game plan, prepare this team, and make sound offensive play calling. How many 3rd and long "draw plays" can we execute in one season.

I'm not a Herm Fan, nor am I a hater....but we all need to call a spade, a spade....and not protect him......alot of our issues are directly related to his decision making (which needs to be called out at this juncture in the season.)

C'mon Chiefs....let's get on track, as our season is in the balance and we can't afford another loss at this juncture.

Herm-don't make us look like idiots (when you say "we will play with 11 players up until the end of the 4th quarter"....it makes me want to laugh out loud......

by tkaufmann on Nov 25, 2007 11:15 PM CST reply actions

Disagree

Tynes actually was not improving. His FG percentage decreased his final year. By anyone's account, trading Tynes for a 7th rounder and then signing Medlock, who was the most accurate college kicker ever was a great move. Unless you can predict the future, that was a very solid move. And, who knows, maybe that 7th round pick we got for Tynes will turn into Another Jarrad Page, our starting safety.
We had Justin Phinisee and Webb to look at to return kicks. Let's face it, Dante was getting terrible at returning kicks. If he wasn't returning it for a TD, which happened rarely his last 2 years, he was running backwards or sideways and losing yards. Getting a 5th round pick for an aging Dante Hall was a fantastic move. If you were a fan of Dante in his last year with the Chiefs, you were probably all alone. And Bobby Sippio is Bowe's cousin, not Drummond.
I don't understand the criticism of the defense. I don't know if you've watched, but they are one of the better units in the entire NFL. Yes, they have mistakes. Every defense does. Criticizing our defense is beginning to become just nitpicky. Peyton Manning is probably the greatest QB ever and he had one of his worst games ever against us.
The timeout situation today did suck. But, it ended up making no difference at all. They got a first down so even with an extra timeout it wouldn't have mattered. We can criticize everyone all day if we played the "what if" game.
Croyle is a young QB. You gotta take a chance on him at some point. Huard is a great back-up QB. This is what teams do when they develop their own QBs they've drafted. KC people probably don't know what it looks like because it hasn't happened since 1983....Todd Blackledge, and we all know how that turned out. I'd be very interested to see your reaction when you looked at every other 3rd string QB in the league and find out very few are legitimate NFL players.

Herm has had wonderful drafts since he's been here. Page a 7th round pick, Tyron Brackendridge, Tamba...this team is becoming full of Chiefs draftees.

I don't mind if people criticize Herm, as long as its warranted. Now, complaining about the drafting and the defense is getting a bit ridiculous, as those are our strong points.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 26, 2007 5:24 AM CST up reply actions

re: Croyle

I know what a lot of people might say. This ia a QB-rich draft, why don't we just draft one? Well, it's not that easy. Along with being a game, this is a business. QBs cost money. And QB is the highest paid position on the field. Soemtimes, actually a lot of times, having the #1 pick isn't a good thing.

So, you can't blame the team for trying to figure out if this QB we invested millions in and a 3rd round draft pick is going to work out.

by Joel Thorman on Nov 26, 2007 5:28 AM CST up reply actions

You won't hear

a word from me about the defense or the drafting. Herm can evaluate talent like few others. He'd be a fantastic scout again.

I would like it if people remembered the work Gunther's done for this defense instead of giving Herm all the credit. We undervalued him last time. Let's not do that again.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 10:27 AM CST up reply actions

Defense

Gunther absolutely should get credit for the D.

But it goes both ways. If you give Gun the credit for how good the D is, you can't load up the blame on Herm for how bad the Offense is.

If you're crediting the coordinators, you have to blame the coordinators if they are doing bad too.

Obviously Herm is the head coach and has his hand in everything. So Gun is making the defense better, but Herm is contributing to that as well, primarily in bringining in talent for Gun to work with.

Likewise, the bad things happening on Offense have to be contributed primarily to Solari, but of course, Herm takes some blame for that too.

But don't give away all the kudos to the coordinators but heap all the negative on the head coach.

by DJ @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 5:08 PM CST up reply actions

So let's review

Gunther improves the defense before Herm gets there. But Herm deserves credit.

The offense goes down the tubes after Herm gets there. Herm doesn't deserve the blame.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I keep trying to say, it's fine that you want to stick with him. But let's judge him fairly. Vermeil was worse at this point, you made that point. And Vermeil got the same amount of criticism. I'm not asking for a 100% turnaround. I'm asking for us to look at the situation and not do what we've done as a fanbase in the past, which is keep drinking the Kool-Aid until we're drowning in it.

The offensive scheme is NOT working.

There's a reason the Chiefs play in MISSOURI.

by Ridiculous Matt on Nov 26, 2007 8:56 PM CST up reply actions

He has had

Good drafts,but does not know what to do with the talent when he gets it.Lets face it Bowe would not have played this much as if Eddie does not get hurt.Good talent scout bad head coach.Teah he won two playoff games,but lets see it happen in the AFC WEST.I while admit I was a complete fool and was wrong about Herm.

by Eric @ Arrowhead Pride on Nov 26, 2007 5:24 PM CST up reply actions